Someone once asked why I dont believe in god.

Will

Will

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Ive got too many reasons and issues to rant on as to why. It was asked of me when someone found out I dont "believe". Best reason why happened today......


I graduated highschool in 96. The town I went to school at I had some very good friends. Different social cirlces but still good friends.

This one couple specifically, the guy was one year ahead and this girl was in my grade. They "hooked up" and were highschool sweethearts. They eventually married etc etc.

After they moved and I moved we lost touch. Thanks to myspace this year I came across them and they had moved back. After having a get together I was told that he had a in-operable brain tumor. Tore me the f'up. I cant express what a class f'n act this guy is and how sweet of a woman she is. They were the couple that you could see married till they both died. Sh*t you dont see too often in this day and age.

Anyhoo, throughout the year they did their medical testing, their chemo therapy etc etc. Earlier in the year before he started getting worse, they just happened to be in Houston Tx when I went there to go see HIM in concert. We hooked up and went out to eat and had a good time.

After that he was getting worse, not as able to interact with people and was more tired and what not from all the tests. About a month and a half ago the treatments werent working and the tumor was getting too big to deal with so Dr's gave him till the end of the year.

As of 10am yesterday morning he passed away.

So heres the best reason I can give as to why I dont "believe". Theres no f'n way anyone can convince me of sh*t as to why he had to go and we have so many sick f*cks out there in this world that live long.



RIP Jesse-top left
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Sorry about your loss. I don't believe god exists either, at least not the way everyone else sees it. Life sucks god or no god, no choice but to move along. Hope you are able to get over this event.
 
I do believe in God but am no less sorry for your loss. I totally agree, it sucks that bad things happen to great people in this world. Very sorry to hear about your friend.
 
Just ask them why they dont believe in Thor, and try to get them to stretch that imagination to why you wouldnt believe in a particular god.
 
I believe in God. I am sorry for your loss.

These things drive people away from the idea of a "God" I know it's tough but you gotta hang in there. Good luck and I am sincerely sorry for your loss


P.S. Happy Thanksgiving or Happy Holidays or something....
 
You don't believe in God because one of your friends died?

Hmm.
 
I can relate. One of the guys who goes to my mother's church has two kids- One 8, the other 13. He was active in the church, played handbells, sung in the choir, made his wife and kid's clothes, put in countless hours at his job at Hewlett Packard and so on. He developed Lymphoma last spring, but only when his wife found him in the bathroom throwing up copious amounts of blood and just in general agonising pain. So after about 6 months of suffering, chemotherapy and being unable to see his kids, he died in the hospital.

His 8 year old son is really messed up by this. Totally detached from his friends and family, he doesn't bathe, do his homework or socialise, he just walks around their property or the yard at school.

Yeah, things like this definitely contribute to my agnostic nature and general distaste for religion. :x
 
[quote name='Brak']You don't believe in God because one of your friends died?

Hmm.[/QUOTE] Arriving at the logical conclusion based on emotional circumstances is a rare occurance, isn't it? :lol:
 
I've heard more rational reasons for not believing in a god. I'm mostly sure I believe in God (or, at the least, subscribe to the pageantry and drinking habits of your average Catholic). Whatever pithy things happen in my life, or to me as an individual, however, don't impact that.

Darfur in the Sudan? *There's* a reason to use the "if bad things happen to good people, God doesn't exist" line of logic. A single moment in a single person's life? In statistics we call that an outlier.
 
Well.. I don't believe in god.. and I'm sorry your long lost buddy died, but that doesn't really refute the possibility. No reason why god and evil can't co-exist.
 
Very sorry your friend died.

Most of the reasons people give for "no God because of bad things" are due to people themselves. Murderers, people using religion as an excuse for their evil acts, etc. Natural diseases and such are a different matter, but still, people found cures for bacterial infections, polio, and other deadly illnesses. I just find it impossible to believe that a world such as ours could occur accidentally. Of course, then I have to believe a God has existed forever....by default I guess. I have more complex belief than that, I am just saying that bad stuff happening doesn't equal lack of God. It does make one look at the issue very closely, and perhaps that is one reason why bad things happen. I don't know.

Again, I hope you and your friend's family get through this ok.
 
That's one of the problems with making up a character and pretending he's omnipotent (so nothing can happen without his approval).

You either have to believe everything that happens is good, or that the character is the world's biggest jerk.

Polytheistic religions have multiple gods, which are not omnipotent, and are often at odds. And of course, atheism shows some people can get by without making up characters to put in charge.
 
[quote name='eldad9']That's one of the problems with making up a character and pretending he's omnipotent (so nothing can happen without his approval).

You either have to believe everything that happens is good, or that the character is the world's biggest jerk.

Polytheistic religions have multiple gods, which are not omnipotent, and are often at odds. And of course, atheism shows some people can get by without making up characters to put in charge.[/QUOTE]

Holy crap, took the words right out of my mouth.

Sorry for your loss man.
 
[quote name='eldad9']That's one of the problems with making up a character and pretending he's omnipotent (so nothing can happen without his approval).

You either have to believe everything that happens is good, or that the character is the world's biggest jerk.

Polytheistic religions have multiple gods, which are not omnipotent, and are often at odds. And of course, atheism shows some people can get by without making up characters to put in charge.[/QUOTE]
I love the way you tip-toe around belittling the beliefs of others.

"No, I don't."

Yes, you do.
 
Yeah, sorry for your loss dude but that's no reason to start a "Why I don't believe in god thread". How about a plain ol' memorial thread?
 
I'm atheist or a very skeptical agnostic... I don't know which. Probably the former. I can agree with you: situations like this are how I came to my conclusion.

I'm sure people will tell you that it's "part of God's plan" or something along the lines of that, but I don't agree with it.

I understand how you feel. Tough loss, man... I've lost grandparents, that's it. I know how it feels to lose someone close to you.
 
Did believe in God before or have you just changed your stance after someone close to you passed away?
 
[quote name='Brak']I love the way you tip-toe around belittling the beliefs of others.

"No, I don't."

Yes, you do.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do.

They're baseless. Why shouldn't I belittle them?

If there was a lot more belittling religion in the world throughout history, maybe there wouldn't be as many atrocities committed in the name of the various religions.

How can I explain it in terms you can understand? Let me see.

How would you feel if you heard a person "belittling" the belief of somebody who believed, say, that the PS2 could play PS3 games?
 
Glad to see more people realizing that.

"It's God's plan". fuck you, that's all I ever say.

Once on the bus through some random person asked if I was Christains (I'm not of course) and then went "Tha's ok, Jesus loves you anyways". No, I'm gay, Jesus hates me and I hate him now get the fuck off the bus!
 
While I appreciate the words of kindness, its a shame that in every thread just about theres someone who plays devils advocate or asshole, you pick.

If those who asked paid closer attn and re-read the OP, youll see that Ive got lots of reasons, the one in this post is just a prime example. I havent "believed" in "god" or "jesus" etc etc blah blah blah. I do however have no doubt that there is a higher power of sorts because lets face it, we had to start somewhere.

Other than that I wasnt wanting to bash religion or those who are believers.
 
[quote name='eldad9']They're baseless. Why shouldn't I belittle them?[/QUOTE]
Because it's not your place to do so.

I'm sure you could get a better mean-streak infested rush from pushing children down in the mud, mounting them bully-style, slugging them in the face a few times and declaring that Santa Claus isn't real, and that their parents don't go anywhere when they die.

There's a charming analogy for you -- one that isn't loaded, like yours.

Yes, religion teaches wrong -- it's rotted with man-made laws, rules and guidelines... That I can see having a vendetta against (although having vendetta's is pretty weak in itself, o' free-thinker). But razzing the shit out of people who believe in something grander than reality? Come on. Why use that as a catalyst? Get a life, man.
 
I agree, OP. I'm very sorry for what happened. I can't really personally relate, but I have lost a couple people who have made an impact on my life in the past few months. And I'm sure the OP has other reasons he's not telling us besides this, but this is probably what really triggered the most feelings.
I don't have problems with Catholics/Christians etc - They're entitled to think whatever they want, as long as they don't try and push their religion on me. Then, I get mean.

But personally, I don't even see it as a remote possibility.
 
[quote name='Will']
I do however have no doubt that there is a higher power of sorts because lets face it, we had to start somewhere.[/QUOTE]

Actually we don't, everything in the universe is like a sphere, few things are a staright line. So why can't time be a circle? No beginning and no end, just goes on forever.
 
[quote name='Will']I do however have no doubt that there is a higher power of sorts because lets face it, we had to start somewhere. [/QUOTE]

Here you go.

And taking your argument ad absurdum, you should believe there is a higher power than god too, because, you know, he had to start somewhere.
 
[quote name='David85']Actually we don't, everything in the universe is like a sphere, few things are a staright line. So why can't time be a circle? No beginning and no end, just goes on forever.[/QUOTE]

Because of the Arrow of time.
 
[quote name='Brak']Because it's not your place to do so.

I'm sure you could get a better mean-streak infested rush from pushing children down in the mud, mounting them bully-style, slugging them in the face a few times and declaring that Santa Claus isn't real, and that their parents don't go anywhere when they die.[/QUOTE]

First, why the violence? This is typically something theists do to atheists or theists of a different religion.

Second, while I think the practice of indoctrinating children who are too young to tell the difference between fact and fiction is abhorrent, I can at least appreciate parents trying to shelter kids from reality on a temporary basis. And I don't get to talk to children often - about gods or otherwise; if the subject came up I certainly wouldn't lie to them, but I'm sure their parents could redo any damage I might undo myself.

And as for it not being my place - it is not not my place; if people don't want to listen to others they don't have to. Maybe you're fine with grownups believing in the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and such; I'm not. And people who are gullible can be manipulated; they could be hurt directly, or be made to hurt others. Take September 11th, for example; without the tales of a rewarding afterlife (72 maidens, etc) would it still be possible to convince the kidnappers to throw away their current life?

This is one example out of many. Even today, theists oppose medical research that may save lives, environmental concerns are shrugged off because the savior is hiding just around the corner, and people in love are prevented from marrying because of religious text designed to maximize tribe size. I could go on, believe me.
 
[quote name='eldad9']First, why the violence? This is typically something theists do to atheists or theists of a different religion.

Second, while I think the practice of indoctrinating children who are too young to tell the difference between fact and fiction is abhorrent, I can at least appreciate parents trying to shelter kids from reality on a temporary basis. And I don't get to talk to children often - about gods or otherwise; if the subject came up I certainly wouldn't lie to them, but I'm sure their parents could redo any damage I might undo myself.

And as for it not being my place - it is not not my place; if people don't want to listen to others they don't have to. Maybe you're fine with grownups believing in the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and such; I'm not. And people who are gullible can be manipulated; they could be hurt directly, or be made to hurt others. Take September 11th, for example; without the tales of a rewarding afterlife (72 maidens, etc) would it still be possible to convince the kidnappers to throw away their current life?

This is one example out of many. Even today, theists oppose medical research that may save lives, environmental concerns are shrugged off because the savior is hiding just around the corner, and people in love are prevented from marrying because of religious text designed to maximize tribe size. I could go on, believe me.[/quote]

:applause::bow:
 
First, OP sorry for your loss and I hope you find solace in the time you had, and as you mentioned, the recent ability to get in touch with a long lost friend - some of us never even get that.

To establish my position, I have to state that I do believe in "God" - But "My God" is likely very different than many of the "believers" here. Moreover - a higher power - someone to whom I must submit, or be accountable for my actions. Now, that's not necessarily Allah, Jesus, Budah or a PS3.

"My God" doesn't try to prevent science, interrupt progress, tend to my affairs, or force me to work at a shelter during Christmas. As far as I can prove, "My God" only exists in my mind as a power that plays an imporant role in trying to make the world a better place - is that not something positive? Wherein lies the harm of believing? So I guess my question is, if I have no problem with you not believing, why can't I believe?

I mean to me, the idea that a monkey with an infinite amount of time and a typewriter could produce the works of William Shakespeare seems absurd... but I still believe it. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem

Bottom Line - You Believe What You Want to, or Don't Want Believe - Just let me do the same.
 
[quote name='Atherius']...the idea that a monkey with an infinite amount of time and a typewriter could produce the works of William Shakespeare seems absurd... but I still believe it. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem[/quote]

If you have a grasp of probability (and assume keystrokes are independent), belief is not required - proof can be shown. The problem is that many people seem unable to grasp the concept of infinity.

Which, as it happens, is why they can't come to grips with the origin of life.

[quote name='Atherius']"My God" doesn't try to prevent science, interrupt progress, tend to my affairs, or force me to work at a shelter during Christmas. As far as I can prove, "My God" only exists in my mind as a power that plays an imporant role in trying to make the world a better place - is that not something positive? Wherein lies the harm of believing? So I guess my question is, if I have no problem with you not believing, why can't I believe? [/QUOTE]

The thing you call a god seems a benign one; with such gods I would have no quarrel. But ask yourself this - when you use that word, do you not mean that part of you, and perhaps within others, which is noble and selfless and kind?

Is it not really mankind - or rather, the potential of mankind - in which you truly believe?
 
First, OP, very sorry about your loss.

[quote name='David85']Once on the bus through some random person asked if I was Christains (I'm not of course) and then went "Tha's ok, Jesus loves you anyways". No, I'm gay, Jesus hates me and I hate him now get the fuck off the bus![/QUOTE]

You clearly don't understand the Christian religion very well. Nobody with even cursory knowledge of Christianity would claim Jesus "hates" anybody. Surely living in this country you've heard of "hate the sin but love the sinner"?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']You clearly don't understand the Christian religion very well. Nobody with even cursory knowledge of Christianity would claim Jesus "hates" anybody. Surely living in this country you've heard of "hate the sin but love the sinner"?[/QUOTE]

Many of those who call themselves Christians don't understand the religion very well, then.

And who is the church to label sex between two consenting adults as a sin?

This seems to me to fit the definition much better.
 
I once read somewhere the whole Santa Claus myth is preparation for kids to be dissapointed by religion.

I believe that.
 
[quote name='eldad9']Yes, I do.

They're baseless. Why shouldn't I belittle them?

If there was a lot more belittling religion in the world throughout history, maybe there wouldn't be as many atrocities committed in the name of the various religions.

How can I explain it in terms you can understand? Let me see.

How would you feel if you heard a person "belittling" the belief of somebody who believed, say, that the PS2 could play PS3 games?[/QUOTE]

Actually, while atrocities have always occured in the name of religion, the vast majority of good in this world has come from people who brought about that good while pursuing their belief that they are fulfilling God's "good purposes" for their lives. Even the now-deified (in our culture) scientists who stood up to the nasty ole' Church and told us all that the Earth actually revolves around the Sun and that it's round and not flat and that gravity keeps us from flying away, etc. would have (and did in the writings they left behind that are not studied in school) described themselves as deeply devoted to God.

If you think social, scientific (yes, I said scientific), and ethical advancement throughout human history has been brought about by an ongoing congregation of athiests and agnostics you are terribly misinformed.

The most notable attempt to create a paradise based on athiesm/agnosticism was led by Karl Marx and the nations who based their institution of Communist rule on his teaching. It resulted in widespread misery and poverty while much of the "religeous" Western world flourished.

Religion is a convenient scapegoat but not the real problem. Remove it and humanity will continue to commit horrible atrocities under a different banner.
 
[quote name='eldad9']If you have a grasp of probability (and assume keystrokes are independent), belief is not required - proof can be shown. The problem is that many people seem unable to grasp the concept of infinity.

Which, as it happens, is why they can't come to grips with the origin of life.[/QUOTE]

But, from an evolutionary perspective, you don't have an actual infinite amount of time. Even if the universe is 10 billion years old, even if it is 10 trillion years old, the question goes back to your statement about probabilities:

Is it more probably that random events created the perfect location for life, then created life, or is it more probably that there is a God who created us?

I personally haven't seen the numbers but I would be interested (I've heard several sermons where they talk about stacking quarters to the moon and picking one quarter out of the pile = the probability that the Earth's orbit would be just right, etc. but I haven't researched it - which is why I won't claim to speak with authority on the actual probabilities). But if you're going to believe in the infinite then you might as well believe in God. If you're not going to believe in the infinite, then you have to accept the statistical realities that you're dealing with a finite age of the universe and it is intellectually incorrect to apply infinite time to a finite calculation.
 
[quote name='eldad9']First, why the violence? This is typically something theists do to atheists or theists of a different religion.

Second, while I think the practice of indoctrinating children who are too young to tell the difference between fact and fiction is abhorrent, I can at least appreciate parents trying to shelter kids from reality on a temporary basis. And I don't get to talk to children often - about gods or otherwise; if the subject came up I certainly wouldn't lie to them, but I'm sure their parents could redo any damage I might undo myself.

And as for it not being my place - it is not not my place; if people don't want to listen to others they don't have to. Maybe you're fine with grownups believing in the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and such; I'm not. And people who are gullible can be manipulated; they could be hurt directly, or be made to hurt others. Take September 11th, for example; without the tales of a rewarding afterlife (72 maidens, etc) would it still be possible to convince the kidnappers to throw away their current life?

This is one example out of many. Even today, theists oppose medical research that may save lives, environmental concerns are shrugged off because the savior is hiding just around the corner, and people in love are prevented from marrying because of religious text designed to maximize tribe size. I could go on, believe me.[/QUOTE]
Somebody missed last week's South Park episode.
 
[quote name='eldad9']If you have a grasp of probability (and assume keystrokes are independent), belief is not required - proof can be shown. [/quote]
I have a firm grasp of both probability and reality. However, everything you mention is theoretical, as there is no Law "Ad Infinitim." By definition a theory can be tested and may be accepted, but has not been proven. If it has not been proven, then it requires belief, on some level, to be accepted. A belief that there is no other way. So saying that there is no requirement for belief when speaking of an infinite amount of time, or probabiliy, is wrong.

[quote name='eldad9'] Which, as it happens, is why they can't come to grips with the origin of life.
[/quote]
Who are "They?" I have no problem with understanding the origins of life. Why must the rebuttles always come with such hasty generalizations? I think a good study of not just science, but logical reasoning, and simple fallacies is in order.


[quote name='eldad9']The thing you call a god seems a benign one; with such gods I would have no quarrel. But ask yourself this - when you use that word, do you not mean that part of you, and perhaps within others, which is noble and selfless and kind?[/quote]
Ok, so I asked myself and I still came to the same conclusions I mentioned before. And yes that part of me that is noble, selfless and kind is my God. How can it not be? Even the OP gives testament to a world full of sick and horrible individuals. How can good people exist without accountability - even it if it's to one's self?

[quote name='eldad9'] Is it not really mankind - or rather, the potential of mankind - in which you truly believe?[/quote]
No, the potential and nature of mankind, historically, is to be unbending and unjust. But, you seem to miss the point. Why does my belief in the existance of something matter anything to you, or anyone else? I agree if God came and told people that they shouldn't use condoms, you have a right to take complaint. However, God didn't do that, men did.

So yes, with all things said I still believe. But why am I asked to postulate that God doesn't exist, when there are as many people that believes he does? I'm not telling you, you must believe. So why must you tell me I can't?
 
[quote name='Brak']...and declaring that Santa Claus isn't real...[/quote]

How about some spoiler tags next time? ;)

I believe in some sort of higher power (how did we all get here?) but definitely not in the "God" in the common meaning (well, at least not the Catholic version of God which is unfortunately the one I know best).
 
[quote name='eldad9']First, why the violence? This is typically something theists do to atheists or theists of a different religion.

Second, while I think the practice of indoctrinating children who are too young to tell the difference between fact and fiction is abhorrent, I can at least appreciate parents trying to shelter kids from reality on a temporary basis. And I don't get to talk to children often - about gods or otherwise; if the subject came up I certainly wouldn't lie to them, but I'm sure their parents could redo any damage I might undo myself.

And as for it not being my place - it is not not my place; if people don't want to listen to others they don't have to. Maybe you're fine with grownups believing in the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and such; I'm not. And people who are gullible can be manipulated; they could be hurt directly, or be made to hurt others. Take September 11th, for example; without the tales of a rewarding afterlife (72 maidens, etc) would it still be possible to convince the kidnappers to throw away their current life?

This is one example out of many. Even today, theists oppose medical research that may save lives, environmental concerns are shrugged off because the savior is hiding just around the corner, and people in love are prevented from marrying because of religious text designed to maximize tribe size. I could go on, believe me.[/QUOTE]
The nugget of my post you neglected to post addresses what you've said here: Religion teaches wrong. Rather, religion can teach wrong.

I'm going to be stating the complete obvious, here on in... but there will be a bit of a lesson, in the end --

It's no secret that religion is man-made. If one is right, they can't all be... Hell, maybe none of them are right -- and I'm speaking in terms of "mythology", in this regard. Religious teachings / beliefs, in terms of ways to live one's life, are different. A lot of religions share the same core beliefs, in this regard. Whether they're "right" is subjective, obviously; there are absolutes in way of what's right and wrong, however.

As long as there is man in religion, filtering the core beliefs through whatever agenda they have, religion can be mutated and deformed into anything. Hatred, money-grubbing, political / social vendettas, etc.

Your angst towards religion is misplaced, in my opinion. You should focus on the ones who bastardize something that should be inherently good, into something inherently bad -- not the religion, itself.

Atheism, hysterically, has become a bit of an inverse-religion, in itself. There are different kinds of Atheism -- those who try desperately to convert people, those who hate religions, or a single religion, and those who don't claim to be "Atheist", as a proper-noun, while not having a religion / belief.

So, if you see where I'm going here, Atheism is among the clump of religions you loathe... or should be, anyway. Atheism can be as corrupt and ulterior as religions, themselves. But you're sure to rep' that set like it's the only way to live, much like those annoying kids in class who ask you what religion you are, and desperately try to "save" you, belittling you all the while.

The idea of world with NO RELIGION is a funny one, albeit im-fucking-possible. Specifically, if the world were to convert to Atheism, according to the set guidelines you've stressed and posted through our your CAG forum stint, I imagine the unwritten Atheist law would be "No Theists Allowed".

There's corruption in every form of religion, even yours.
 
[quote name='Brak']As long as there is man in religion, filtering the core beliefs through whatever agenda they have, religion can be mutated and deformed into anything. Hatred, money-grubbing, political / social vendettas, etc.

Your angst towards religion is misplaced, in my opinion. You should focus on the ones who bastardize something that should be inherently good, into something inherently bad -- not the religion, itself.
...

There's corruption in every form of religion, even yours.[/quote]

Well said man
 
[quote name='chosen1s']Actually, while atrocities have always occured in the name of religion, the vast majority of good in this world has come from people who brought about that good while pursuing their belief that they are fulfilling God's "good purposes" for their lives. Even the now-deified (in our culture) scientists who stood up to the nasty ole' Church and told us all that the Earth actually revolves around the Sun and that it's round and not flat and that gravity keeps us from flying away, etc. would have (and did in the writings they left behind that are not studied in school) described themselves as deeply devoted to God.[/quote]

The world is getting less primitive by the millennium. There are less scientists who are religious now than a thousand years ago; a thousand years from now there will be less than today. And it doesn't take a god to have make a person curious and intelligent and focused. There is good inherent in the human condition.

[quote name='chosen1s']The most notable attempt to create a paradise based on athiesm/agnosticism was led by Karl Marx and the nations who based their institution of Communist rule on his teaching. It resulted in widespread misery and poverty while much of the "religeous" Western world flourished.
[/quote]
You're tying communism and atheism unnecessarily.

From a slashdot discussion:

"Marx said that Capitalism would run its course and come to a point where it was no longer workable. That so much of the wealth would be concentrated in a small group while the rest of the masses (the workers, or proletariat in his parlayence) would become more and more poor and oppressed. He then postulated that a revolution would then occur and the workers unite forming a workers paradise.

What the Soviet Union had was Marxist Leninism, because Lenin came along and said "why wait, we can have that paradise in our lifetimes", and started a revolution that he declared to be the revolution that Marx had envisioned. The big problem with this is that Russia at the time was not especially Capitalist (it was still a Monarchy), and Capitalism in the West was far from running its course."

And it's not relevant, anyway.

[quote name='chosen1s']Religion is a convenient scapegoat but not the real problem. Remove it and humanity will continue to commit horrible atrocities under a different banner.[/QUOTE]

Some will, some won't. It has been said that good people tend to do good, evil people tend to do evil, but for a good person to do evil–that takes religion.
 
[quote name='chosen1s']But, from an evolutionary perspective, you don't have an actual infinite amount of time. Even if the universe is 10 billion years old, even if it is 10 trillion years old, the question goes back to your statement about probabilities:

Is it more probably that random events created the perfect location for life, then created life, or is it more probably that there is a God who created us?

I personally haven't seen the numbers but I would be interested (I've heard several sermons where they talk about stacking quarters to the moon and picking one quarter out of the pile = the probability that the Earth's orbit would be just right, etc. but I haven't researched it - which is why I won't claim to speak with authority on the actual probabilities). But if you're going to believe in the infinite then you might as well believe in God. If you're not going to believe in the infinite, then you have to accept the statistical realities that you're dealing with a finite age of the universe and it is intellectually incorrect to apply infinite time to a finite calculation.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, none of this makes any sense. You can't assign probabilities arbitrarily. And you know, even some things which are less probable than others happen. That's why the legal system doesn't convict on the basis of "he probably did it".

Put a scientist or two (sounds like you'd need a biologist) with these wacky ministers and they'll likely rip whatever specific arguments they make to shreds - but again, claiming unlikely things can't happen without gods is ridiculous.

The monkey thought experiment is a mathematical exercise - you don't need to 'believe in 2000' or 'believe in 3000' to understand that if you add two thousand monkeys to three thousand you get five thousand. And your objection about the lack of time is equivalent to saying it's not true because there wouldn't be any room for all those monkeys. Remember, the stipulation was given infinite time. That's a given.
 
[quote name='Atherius']I have a firm grasp of both probability and reality. However, everything you mention is theoretical, as there is no Law "Ad Infinitim." By definition a theory can be tested and may be accepted, but has not been proven. If it has not been proven, then it requires belief, on some level, to be accepted. A belief that there is no other way. So saying that there is no requirement for belief when speaking of an infinite amount of time, or probabiliy, is wrong.[/quote]
You too completely missed it. It's a probability problem, not a theory that claims to apply to the real world; math, not science.

[quote name='Atherius']Who are "They?" I have no problem with understanding the origins of life. Why must the rebuttles always come with such hasty generalizations? I think a good study of not just science, but logical reasoning, and simple fallacies is in order.[/quote]
"They" are people with no grasp of probabilities.

[quote name='Atherius']Ok, so I asked myself and I still came to the same conclusions I mentioned before. And yes that part of me that is noble, selfless and kind is my God. How can it not be? Even the OP gives testament to a world full of sick and horrible individuals. How can good people exist without accountability - even it if it's to one's self?[/quote]
Do you object to atheism on the basis of the unfairness of a world without gods?
Some people are almost completely good; some almost completely evil. Most are somewhere in between. You're accountable to yourself. I see no gods here.

[quote name='Atherius']No, the potential and nature of mankind, historically, is to be unbending and unjust. But, you seem to miss the point. Why does my belief in the existance of something matter anything to you, or anyone else? I agree if God came and told people that they shouldn't use condoms, you have a right to take complaint. However, God didn't do that, men did.

So yes, with all things said I still believe. But why am I asked to postulate that God doesn't exist, when there are as many people that believes he does? I'm not telling you, you must believe. So why must you tell me I can't?[/QUOTE]

There is the potential for both good and evil. But I'm not telling you not to believe; I would prefer if you didn't, but as long as you don't hurt others based on your beliefs your particular brand of religion is benign. Unfortunately, it is very rare in that regard.
 
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