The few, the proud, the uncomfortable?

C

Clak

CAGiversary!
I don't want to debate the legality of this and activist judges blah blah blah.....What I want to talk about is the lack of maturity shown in the armed forces.

For example, the incoming Marine commandant, Gen. Joseph Amos, and his predecessor, Gen. James Conway, both have told Congress that they think most Marines would be uncomfortable with the change and that the current policy works.
Click to expand...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101013/ap_on_re_us/us_gays_in_military

They would be uncomfortable, really? These people are trained to handle combat and things that most of us can't imagine, yet they're freaked out by the thought of serving with gay people? Gay people they're probably serving with right now but don't know about?

Policies like don't ask don't tell are the equivalent to putting your hands over your ears and shouting LALALALALALA. You know, if you don't hear that they're gay then they aren't, only when you hear it do you have to deal with it. I don't understand how people who act so tough turn into such babies when it comes to something like this.
 
You can train a man to become comfortable with a bullet flying at his head, but never a dick up his ass ;)

On this serious note, this is stupid and really is a pointless argument(not yours, the people whining about being uncomfortable).
 
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It's odd how quickly the few and the proud become whiny little babies.

(To be honest though I'm not sure if it's the marines themselves or the leadership that has the biggest problem)
 
In most cases the most homophobic and most uncomfortable around gay people are because they have homosexual thoughts or fantasies but have to fight it be big tough manly men and show themselves and (but more importantly) everyone else around they arent gay. Plus in the military you have the alpha cocksucker male that is 101% manly man and the other guys look up to him. So if he doesnt like gays then the lesser guys with him dont either. Ive seen that more than once when I was in the army.

And of course some people are just raised to be really fucking stupid, closed minded and hateful of others.

It shouldnt be an issue though. Sexuality should not matter nor should it ever come up in any way, shape or form in this country. Because hatred of gays is because of 2 big reasons. 1- Because of the gays who prance around and make sure they shove the fact they are gay in the face of anyone 30 foot within their range, preach gay rights and act like steretypical $$$$$$s, go on gay pride marches as if being gay makes them special and so on. Those folks make people dislike gays because they act like being gay makes them special or they deserve special attention for it. If they just acted like a person first instead of acting like a gay person then a whole lot less people would even care or notice. 2- We keep talking about it. If everyone would stop talking about gay this, gay that and so on it would cease to be an issue. If people would stop saying like "Thats karen, she is gay" and instead say "Thats karen" it would stop being a issue. But since people wont shut up about it its always going to be a topic of conversation.
 
[quote name='gargus']It shouldnt be an issue though. Sexuality should not matter nor should it ever come up in any way, shape or form in this country. Because hatred of gays is because of 2 big reasons. 1- Because of the gays who prance around and make sure they shove the fact they are gay in the face of anyone 30 foot within their range, preach gay rights and act like steretypical $$$$$$s, go on gay pride marches as if being gay makes them special and so on. Those folks make people dislike gays because they act like being gay makes them special or they deserve special attention for it. If they just acted like a person first instead of acting like a gay person then a whole lot less people would even care or notice. 2- We keep talking about it. If everyone would stop talking about gay this, gay that and so on it would cease to be an issue. If people would stop saying like "Thats karen, she is gay" and instead say "Thats karen" it would stop being a issue. But since people wont shut up about it its always going to be a topic of conversation.[/QUOTE]

Good points. I know quite a few gay people in the professional sphere who have echoed the above sentiments. The main point is that they do not define themselves entirely by their sexuality. They are human beings, nurses, physicians, etc. who happen to be homosexual and not vice versa. Privately, at least two people from this group have told me that they feel that in your face "whether you like it or not" rallies are tacky and do not help the overall cause of acceptance by society at large. But of course if someone echoes these sentiments out-loud, one is labelled a bigot.
 
We sure do like to trot out the old "If only they weren't all up in our faces about it" chestnut around here lately.

But hey, just the other day I saw this straight couple kissing in public, and I'll be damned if the first thing I thought wasn't "Man, they're setting the straight agenda back decades by flaunting their heterosexuality like that. Jerks."
 
When I was in Boston a few years ago, I was hanging out with some friends. This woman kept talking about her wife. My wife this, my wife that. Cramming her queerness down my throat. Keep it in the bedroom, you know?

When I told my wife about that, she was naturally sick to her stomach too. Same with my sister and her husband. But my brother and his girlfriend were okay with it. What's the matter with those two, I wonder?
 
I work with a few homosexuals and am fine with it. One had some legal things done and is now considered a woman which makes me feel a bit uncomfortable at times when I refer to him as her..or is it the other way around.?

These military men shouldn't have to worry about gays but I don't think many of us are actually seeing the story from their side. I'd assume most soldiers have grown up with gay bashing like some of us have and then to go serve your country with homosexuals is not what they had in mind. Then you got the showers you share with many men which I'm sure is not ideal for them.

If word gets out and everyone knows everyones sexuality, the closed minded ones will definitely prefer hetero males for obvious reasons. Say in combat they have the oppurtunity to help a fellow soldier who is gay. This may process in his mind first instead of what's going around and that may end up to be disastrous. Or perhaps he doesn't even want to assist the gay soldier just because he is gay. Whatever the situation is, there will be a soldier with the wrong attitude about homosexuals and do unprofessional things for the wrong reasons.
Yes, I can definitely see why this may be an issue.


[quote name='gargus']hatred of gays is because of 2 big reasons. 1- Because of the gays who prance around and make sure they shove the fact they are gay in the face of anyone 30 foot within their range, preach gay rights and act like steretypical $$$$$$s, go on gay pride marches as if being gay makes them special and so on. Those folks make people dislike gays because they act like being gay makes them special or they deserve special attention for it. If they just acted like a person first instead of acting like a gay person then a whole lot less people would even care or notice. 2- We keep talking about it. If everyone would stop talking about gay this, gay that and so on it would cease to be an issue. If people would stop saying like "Thats karen, she is gay" and instead say "Thats karen" it would stop being a issue. But since people wont shut up about it its always going to be a topic of conversation.[/QUOTE]
I also think gays act out too much. Not all but it seems most have a tendency to let everyone know about it. However, some straight guys are like this, too! It drives me insane. Alright Mr. Machosupercock, I am tired of hearing you screw chicks from where ever and had to do sniff checks because you get so much ass you know what to smell for. To the boastful gays and straights...STFU! Go fuck your ladies/men and keep that shit to yourself!
 
I think if people condemned all PDAs (not just homo ones) equally, or if people condemned all exposure clothing (not just assless chaps) then we'd think oh has a problem with ALL PDAs and exposure clothing, not just homo PDAs and exposure clothing.
 
I don't know. When you put yourself in the shoes of those that have to run the military and lose nights of sleep over all kinds of shit already, worrying about cohesion and doing whatever it takes to keep soldiers getting along - It's a bit understandable that they don't want to deal with a policy change like this.

It may or may not be a big deal to many in the armed forces when it's all said and done, but when you manage hundreds of thousands of them - the last thing you want are some politicians coming in and splashing around in your pool (with any issue).

I may change my mind on this later but it seems to me that this is a military matter. As long as the military is an all volunteer force, it's policies should not be made by politicians. The Pentagon should make them. They are the most qualified to know what works and what doesn't in a military, not bureaucrats. Being in the military is inherently restrictive and you already have some of your 'civil' rights squeezed - That's how military is. It isn't a club or a social dance. If people don't like their policies, they don't have to join.

I have a cousin that was in the Marines. He decided, for some reason, to jump off the back of the U.S.S Tripoli while in the middle of the Sea of Japan. They had to stop the boat and have seals in helicopters rescue him. He was dishonorably discharged from the Marines for it. Was that unfair? Maybe he just needed to talk and was acting out? Should the Marines have been more sensitive to his cry for help? No. It's the fucking Marines - you do and act like they say or you get the fuck out.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Yeah, maybe they should wear normal clothes during parades just like everybody else doesn't.[/QUOTE]

And right back to your old ways twisting the words of others if they do not fit your belief system. I guess I just will add you to the list of Strells and Knolls, the people that can not be reasonable or mature to anyone outside their own little world. I mean shit, that you brought a fued you blew out of hand from another topic here to a completely different topic, that says a lot.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']We sure do like to trot out the old "If only they weren't all up in our faces about it" chestnut around here lately.

But hey, just the other day I saw this straight couple kissing in public, and I'll be damned if the first thing I thought wasn't "Man, they're setting the straight agenda back decades by flaunting their heterosexuality like that. Jerks."[/QUOTE]

It has nothing to do with being in peoples faces or not. I have been hit on a few times by gay guys and did not mind, again going to an alternative school many of my class mates were gay and when we went on overnight trips we were trusted to choose our own tent mates and given a separate area then the adults. Do you not think on nights like that I saw plenty of people both straight and gay committing all sorts of lewd acts? Hell I slept with two guys at that age and thought for a year or so there that maybe I was bi sexual. As I got older I realized no it was not that I was attracted to guys what so ever, it was just I was a desperate horny teenager willing to stick it in any hole I could. I am sure myke and others will love twisting this in to being "see he said all homosexuals are desperate losers that just can not get laid the normal way, even though this is just me saying this about me.

The army is no different. I imagine it is against the rules for straight people in the army to fraternize, so I would expect it would be the same for gays in the army. I am also sure gays in the army would treat things the same way straights do, with some breaking the rules and some respecting them. All this in your face homosexuality talk is just immaturity and twisted logic being carried over from the other topic, as I just stated I doubt sexual activity is permitted even for straights in the military meaning in your face sexual acts is already out of the question.

I think the bigger problem people are missing here is actually on the gay not straight side and it is not even about equal rights...its about safety. I would not be surprised if we end up finding a number of gay soldiers dead from friendly fire(be it a meat head US soldier or an Afghan/Iraqi police officer/army member). Neither the Muslim world nor as we are seeing the US soldiers seem that friendly towards gay people, so being out in the military could sadly be a safty risk for gay soldiers. I also fear the harrasment many of them will find in the army when they serve openly. I am sure there are large sections of the military that will treat them as their brothers in arms just like any other soldier, but I am sure there are bad troops too where we are going to see negative shit happen.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']And right back to your old ways twisting the words of others if they do not fit your belief system. I guess I just will add you to the list of Strells and Knolls, the people that can not be reasonable or mature to anyone outside their own little world. I mean shit, that you brought a fued you blew out of hand from another topic here to a completely different topic, that says a lot.[/QUOTE]

Aww, pobrecito. Put me on ignore. Go back to making longwinded posts that can be summed up as saying "the bibliography of my life's lessons can't be found in books or in lived experiences, but at Netflix."

[quote name='MSI Magus']I have been hit on a few times by gay guys and did not mind[/QUOTE]

fuck you. Seriously. YOU DIDN'T MIND!?!? How dare you have the nerve to say that. YOU WERE BEING HIT ON, NUMBSKULL. It's not a moment of pride to think of yourself as Sir Garwain the Chivalrous because you didn't clobber someone for thinking you were cute and fuckable. IT'S WHOLLY INAPPROPRIATE TO RESPOND THAT WAY IN THE FIRST PLACE. So it doesn't suddenly make you a champion that you "didn't mind." The fucking ego on you, son!

There are appropriate responses to being hit on by people who you don't want to date/talk to/fuck: you kindly decline their advances. You don't think of yourself as ushering in an era of tolerance because you "didn't mind." They're stroking your ego, dude, and you're acting like you deserve the key to the city because you didn't curbstomp them!

What the fuck is an "alternative school" anyway? Were you a fuckup who had to finish in a remedial district program because you failed out of the public school? Was it a performing arts academy where kids didn't study real subjects, but instead dressed like a bunch of fruitbat goths and ditched class to smoke clove cigarettes at the local coffee shop? Was it one of those "free school" programs where kids are self directed and don't have teachers/classes/grades? Be specific. Also, explain why that's relevant. I went to a Jesuit high school and there were still gay people in my class. It's not really about an exposure thing; gay people aren't drawn to "alternative school" ("I hear Kim Thayil is teaching next year!") because they're gay. Gay people go to school.

The things you keep patting yourself on the back for, i.e.:
1) I know about black culture because I watch the Boondocks
2) I have lived among gay culture because I went to alternative school
expose that you're someone who thinks lofty things about the conclusions and opinions you've come to in this world, but that you're really little more than another bumbling tv casualty whose worldview doesn't recognize the privilieged position you have by virtue of being a straight white male.

Oh, you know what, I'm not being nice again. I'm sorry. Let me change my tune.

OHHHH, OOHHHH, OHHH, LAWD. I'M SO PROUD OF MAGUS BECAUSE HE WAS NICE TO PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO fuck HIM, SINCE THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE IS TO RECOIL IN HORROR AND/OR YELL AND SCREAM AND/OR COMMIT ACTS OF EXTREME VIOLENCE UPON THEM.

See? I'm proud of you. Quit stalkin' me, homeboy, and either try to make points in this forum like a grownup, or get out. If you can't take a few barbs because you argue like a goddamned teenager, quit cryin' the blues because adults are talking over you.
 
So Myke is the grown up thing to do to twist what someone says then jump on another group labeling them all? Or maybe it is just being insulting to everyone that does not agree with you in general, remember the first step to adult conversation is to make sure you make a reference to pseudo philosophy, art school drop out or life lessons learned from juvenile sources. You argue like you accuse me of debating. You get on a high horse, ignore points and then after mangling what I say make sure to toss out a few good insults which come across more as a pretentious scenester critic then an adult wanting a real debate. Seriously you take me saying I did not mind a few gay guys hitting on me as me being some kind of Casanova who should have clobbered them for even thinking of me in a sexual way, then you turn around and generalize alternative schools as a bunch of fuck ups and weird kids.

I do think there is good in you unlike many other people at this board(thus why I keep trying with you vs simply tossing you on ignore or manually ignoring you like I do Strell and knoll most of the time)but you have a really bad habit of pitching a fit and being completely hypocritical when people do not agree with you. Think about it, your accusing me of stalking you and acting like a child, but here I am trying hard to explain the way I feel, and without being insulting, to a person that is continuously twisting my words, ignoring logic and being extremely insulting(and btw you are the one that brought this from one topic in to a new one). How can you accuse others of not speaking like adults when you can not make your point without not only insulting me but quite a few other groups in the process.

Anyways, to address a few things. Yes you will find gay people at any school you go to, I knew and was friends with gay people at even the ultra conservative Baptist school I went to. The difference with the alternative school that you refuse to even attempt to see, is that not only are you around larger numbers of gay people, but you are much more exposed to their life styles because they have the freedom to be open with who they are. Going to the Baptist school EVERY kid was in the closet, and going to public school some were and some were not, but even those that were out would admit to having a fear of retaliation from some of the straight kids. You preach about being a straight white male when it is convenient to you, but fail to accept it when it is not useful to your points. Truth is that at the alternative school it was the first time I not only felt like I saw gay people free to be themselves, but also heard them admit they felt free to be themselves. Some of them became douche bags who went over the top(Oh lordy lordy there I go again)but most were normal people that simply for the first time felt comfortable to lay on a couch with their head in their significant others lap, or when we had sleep overs they felt comfortable to have sex just like the straight kids, or hell they felt comfortable to hit on us asshole Casanovas because they knew they would not get their ass beat for it. At the Baptist school being homosexual was talked about like a disease, at the public schools it was partly accepted and partly made clear they were hated.....at the alternative school people were kicked out for showing intolerance.

Anyways, I would love to keep debating, but only if for once you can seriously put together a well thought out post vs a flame fest. A grown up conversation is accepting your faults, accepting when your wrong and talking civilly. If you want to blast me I will accept barbs where I deserve them(long rambling posting and bad grammar from a poor education), but twisting my logic and accusing me arguing(again a difference between me and you, I do not want to argue, I want to discuss)will not get you anywhere.

Go ahead and blast me now...but at least I tried 2 or 3 times to talk civilly about this(even thanked you in the one topic when you made a post without insulting me).
 
This thread is Gold. Gold, Jerry!

The only homosexual guy I've ever had a problem with was a guy who not just hit on me, but invaded my personal space. Kneeling in front of me (I was sitting in a chair talking to someone else) and putting his hand on my thigh, telling me he'd "convert me" (I'd come to this party with my girlfriend). Coming up behind me at this same girlfriend's birthday party six months later drunk and licking the back of my neck.

I've known many homosexual men and women since then, and even been hit on by a few of the men, and none have crossed the personal space lines.

SO, if MSI Magus was hit on in that way, I can understand his pride at not lashing out. I'm proud of not lashing out at the neck licking. (My girlfriend threw him out of the party.) Otherwise, Magus is a prick, considering himself a hero for not hurting someone who was being nice to him.
 
[quote name='Quillion']This thread is Gold. Gold, Jerry!

The only homosexual guy I've ever had a problem with was a guy who not just hit on me, but invaded my personal space. Kneeling in front of me (I was sitting in a chair talking to someone else) and putting his hand on my thigh, telling me he'd "convert me" (I'd come to this party with my girlfriend). Coming up behind me at this same girlfriend's birthday party six months later drunk and licking the back of my neck.

I've known many homosexual men and women since then, and even been hit on by a few of the men, and none have crossed the personal space lines.

SO, if MSI Magus was hit on in that way, I can understand his pride at not lashing out. I'm proud of not lashing out at the neck licking. (My girlfriend threw him out of the party.) Otherwise, Magus is a prick, considering himself a hero for not hurting someone who was being nice to him.[/QUOTE]

Where did I ever say I wanted to or should hurt him? Honestly I was laughing at your post thinking of a friend of mine who was a lot like that. He would always grab my crotch and tell me he could change me, even whenever I pointed out I had slept with a guy or two and did not find it to be my thing he would say things like "but baby they ain't me" . The kid was freaking hilarious....thought your post was equally funny till the point where again my words were twisted. Like I said I would love to see where I said I was a hero for not hurting this gay guy for hitting on me because all I can find that I said was "I have been hit on a few gay guys and did not mind". Guess next time I want to instigate a fight I will recall telling people that I "mind" them doing whatever it is their doing = kicking their ass.
 
*just realized he owes Myke an apology*

While much of what I said stands true you were right about the Stalker thing and me being the one to bring crap up in this topic. I just noticed that Gargus mentioned the gay pride parade and made similar comments to the one I made in the other topic. I had not noticed that before and I thought you were just trying to drag anger at me from the other topic in to this topic(the way many people frequently do). So my apologies on thinking you were dragging things from one topic to the next, that was my mistake.
 
This is why you're a pain in the ass: any discussion you show up in always devolves down to you, you, you.

People "mind" things when they're perceived as unpleasant. If you view being hit on as unpleasant, then that's fine. But to act like you're above treating being hit on *as it should be* (e.g., being hit on should be responded to with scorn, disgust, repulsion) - then you're reinforcing the gay = deviant problem.

We use it sarcastically to describe pleasant experiences (e.g., "I got an extra shot of espresso at Starbucks, I didn't mind" - why would you mind? you got something good!), but when you use "mind" as intended, the idea is that normally we'd be unhappy with what happened to us. Since you say you did not mind being hit on, I called you into question. Why would you *mind* being hit on? Why would you *mind* finding a hundred dollar bill on the street? Why would you *mind* something that's pleasant? You wouldn't. You're reinforcing that it's okay to be repulsed by homosexual come-ons, and that's not okay. That you seem so unaware of it is of little surprise to me.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']This is why you're a pain in the ass: any discussion you show up in always devolves down to you, you, you.

People "mind" things when they're perceived as unpleasant. If you view being hit on as unpleasant, then that's fine. But to act like you're above treating being hit on *as it should be* (e.g., being hit on should be responded to with scorn, disgust, repulsion) - then you're reinforcing the gay = deviant problem.

We use it sarcastically to describe pleasant experiences (e.g., "I got an extra shot of espresso at Starbucks, I didn't mind" - why would you mind? you got something good!), but when you use "mind" as intended, the idea is that normally we'd be unhappy with what happened to us. Since you say you did not mind being hit on, I called you into question. Why would you *mind* being hit on? Why would you *mind* finding a hundred dollar bill on the street? Why would you *mind* something that's pleasant? You wouldn't. You're reinforcing that it's okay to be repulsed by homosexual come-ons, and that's not okay. That you seem so unaware of it is of little surprise to me.[/QUOTE]

You yourself state in this post that to mind something means you perceive it as unpleasant, so if I say I have been hit by on gay guys and did not mind...it implies I did not perceive it as unpleasant. You made an assumption and overacted(same as you have done here many times)based on that assumption. I have in this topic and the other numerous times corrected those assumptions and instead of taking me for my words you have choosen to either disregard or twist what was said(like you did with Gargus in this topic).

As for the negative idea of the word mind. I agree that it could be perceived that way, I even agree that I can see where you could assume what you did...if not for the fact that it was accompanied by many things that were showing support of the gay community. In that case and taken with the post as a whole it should show that you are talking to someone that generally supports the things you support and is in support of the gay community. Instead though you take a simple grammar problem and make it in to a huge case disregarding the rest of the post that shows thought and insight into the gay situation that suggests support. Again you did the same of the other topic, even though we were generally in agreement on a subject I said one thing outside of your realm of political belief and you went off the deep end(again you did it with Gargus here too). Not everything has to be a sarcastic and rude comment, the left holds itself up as a bastion for intellectual discussion...yet the left of this board is so snarky and rude.

Next time read my whole post, read posts like the one Gargus made in the entirety and then think about the meaning of the whole. Generally we are agreeing with you and if ONE part of it seems off you could point it out and discuss why we feel the way we do vs acting like we just said gays are a filthy plague or something crazy...chances are if someone is in support of the gay community and is saying 98% of the same stuff as you...then they are not the person you are attempting to make them out to be. I did not make this about me, me, me. I tried in this topic and the other to discuss the issues, you came in and made personal attacks which then makes it about the person not the issue.

Edit - Just thought of a good example. Sure I will get flamed for posting it but I think it is exactly what you are doing Myke. My wife despite having marched at Gay Pride parades and feeling passionately about gay rights has a horrible habit of using the word gay to describe things she does not like. It drives me up the fucking wall and I always ask her to stop using it and point out how insulting it is to a lot of gay people. She knows it and tries not to use it, but fucks up sometimes. Despite her bad habit I do not look at her and think "see she is a closeted homophobe and a horrible person". Sometimes people have bad habits and sometimes they just misspeak or others misinterpret things. I look at my wife and I take her as a whole, I have seen her practically get in fights for her brother who admitted to us one night that he thinks he is gay or bisexual but is scared to tell people other then us. I recognize who she is as a person and what she says...I do not judge her entire character or position on an issue based on one thing I disagree with no matter how strongly. You need to learn to breath, take a pill and after calming down when someone says something you dislike recognize them for their character and the content of what they have said, not two or three words of what they said.

Anyways if you want to keep talking in a reasonable manner I will keep discussing things with you, but I am done for today. I avoid these boards for exactly these reasons and after a day or so of the pointless bickering I am done. I will try and remember to respond in a day or two(again only if you want to debate/discuss and not ARGUE).
 
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The bottom line is that it shouldn't matter but it does. Like was mentioned, you don't want some poor guy being left for dead because someone in his group was homophobic. Similarly, I'd rather not have some buffoon go insane because he's worried about "TEH GAYZ" and shoot up a barracks.

Without going too deep into this and pretty much stating this as ignorantly as possible, most of the straight white males in the military don't openly have a problem with blacks serving because they think they'll get their ass kicked. When it comes to gays, no one really sees or hears lore about them being threatening and as such they get shit from everyone. I've experienced this in many situations and can't even imagine what it would be like in an environment like the military.

I like DADT if only because it avoids problems from both ends. There's no harassment from superiors and in return, you don't give dipwads anything to harass you about.

We'll never get across the board acceptance or even basic tolerance. In any situation. From anyone. Most of our country's biggest moments involve something that's bigotry/xenophobia related. Most recent example is how the country was celebrating its first black president and a great moment of change but also cheering on Proposition 8 right along with it.

Again, that all probably sounded absolutely terrible but it came out so raw as I'm very tired.
 
Yeah it kind of did sound terrible. YOu might want to try when you think about it, like think about it a LOT.

DADT holds gays to a different standard. You get kicked out if you come out as gay. Discrimination. Unconstitutional.

Apparently Obama doesn't have to appeal it. I could understand initially having to defend legislation passed by Congress just as a matter of principle. I wouldn't want to see a precedent of the DOJ picking and choosing which laws to defend.

I read that during the Clinton years, there was a policy that banned HIV+ people from serving in the military. This was deemed to be unconstitutional.

Clinton didn't appeal it because he agreed with the ruling. Obama could supposedly do this, and not appeal it, but this is Obama we're talking about. What do you think will (did) happen?
 
It's discrimination but the military is not like working at a McDonald's where it becomes more blatantly unreasonable to discriminate. People's lives aren't on the line when some douche doesn't like that the guy handling fries likes men. It's a stupid law but it's the best they can do to appease the bigots that serve the military branches in some capacity, because after all, they serve too.

Ideally, the concept works. There is no heckling of your personal life and in turn you don't give a jackass something to pick on you for. It's just that making it a law is a huge no-no and makes us look backwards. It's the equivalent of "No Girls Allowed In Our Tree Fort!!" only it involves adults serving the country.

Ultimately, you can't have both ends of the spectrum. It can't be illegal to be gay and in the military as that's straight up discrimination. However, there's no technical need to wear "Gay + Military" as a badge other than pride.
 
[quote name='davo1224'] It's a stupid law but it's the best they can do to appease the bigots that serve the military branches in some capacity, because after all, they serve too.
[/QUOTE]

Why do we need to cater to bigots? How about a policy of discharging people that refuse to serve efficiently with gays rather than discharging gays for being gay?
 
Yeah something tells me this guy wouldn't mind banning blacks from serving in the military. Gotta cater to the bigots right?
 
Desegregation wasn't a smooth process either, not everyone just instantly started to "Act right". Over time though, things do improve, they never will in the military though unless we start the process. People are more tolerant now about homosexuality than in the past, and most likely will become more tolerant as time goes on. We don't want to make our military a haven for bigotry where a straight person can be sure they won't have to work with a homosexual person (well, at least they won't know if they're homosexual).

By not allowing people to openly serve we're basically admitting that our military is full of homophobic bigots. When other militaries in the world have no problem with it they must wonder why we can't handle it.
 
So when you are gay and get to go into locker rooms and open showers every day, is that just another small bonus of serving your country?

I wonder if enrollment would go up if the military had coed showers.
 
[quote name='Clak']Desegregation wasn't a smooth process either, not everyone just instantly started to "Act right". Over time though, things do improve, they never will in the military though unless we start the process. People are more tolerant now about homosexuality than in the past, and most likely will become more tolerant as time goes on. We don't want to make our military a haven for bigotry where a straight person can be sure they won't have to work with a homosexual person (well, at least they won't know if they're homosexual).

By not allowing people to openly serve we're basically admitting that our military is full of homophobic bigots. When other militaries in the world have no problem with it they must wonder why we can't handle it.[/QUOTE]
American exceptionalism? :D
 
[quote name='looploop']Why do we need to cater to bigots? How about a policy of discharging people that refuse to serve efficiently with gays rather than discharging gays for being gay?[/QUOTE]

It's not catering to bigots. It's more or less putting muzzles on them.

Your idea isn't sound either. Discharge every bigot from the military? We're already spread heavily thin as it is. That's like squeezing the last drops of mustard out of the bottle and saying you don't want any that's touched the inside of the container.

Can we please stop painting me out to be something I'm not, too? My opinions come from observing and living all of this firsthand. I can spout off at the mouth about how IRHari must be some upper crust idealist who has no idea how the real world works. However, in doing so I'd also completely miss the point of this debate, resort to ad hominem, and probably be wrong.
 
No you would be absolutely correct ;)

Your opinions are formed via anecdotal evidence. Awesome, that doesn't make you any more informed than anyone else.
 
Dadt always made me chuckle. In a military where the ratio in Iraq(formerly)/Afghanistan is 1 to 12 for battle field soldier and support personnel one of the best arguments is the dangers of friendly and non-friendly homophobes. Seriously? If it is that important relegate then to duties where there is no battle field experience until friendly opposition dies down and them put them on the front lines. As to our enemies, they will kill us anyway regardless of sexuality so it is a non-point.
 
[quote name='IRHari']No you would be absolutely correct ;)

Your opinions are formed via anecdotal evidence. Awesome, that doesn't make you any more informed than anyone else.[/QUOTE]

...Not saying that it does. Only saying that my opinions aren't just random thoughts pulled out of thin air. Having to actually defend *yourself* in an argument that is not about you is tacky and takes away time from the discussion. Welcome to ignore.
 
[quote name='davo1224']
Your idea isn't sound either. Discharge every bigot from the military? We're already spread heavily thin as it is. That's like squeezing the last drops of mustard out of the bottle and saying you don't want any that's touched the inside of the container.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying to discharge bigots merely for their thoughts. I said to discharge those who refuse to form a cohesive military with gays. If you can't live and let serve then don't serve.

You're right about the military being stretched thin, but that doesn't mean they should accept anybody and everybody regardless of their behavior. How many avowed racists and white supremacists do we want representing us in the military just because recruiting's hard these days?
 
Well that much is true. However, I think you do get kicked out anyway for any lack of cohesion on your part in the army because of safety reasons, regardless of why. Hopefully, that much is true too.
 
[quote name='looploop']I'm not saying to discharge bigots merely for their thoughts. I said to discharge those who refuse to form a cohesive military with gays. If you can't live and let serve then don't serve.

You're right about the military being stretched thin, but that doesn't mean they should accept anybody and everybody regardless of their behavior. How many avowed racists and white supremacists do we want representing us in the military just because recruiting's hard these days?[/QUOTE]

Something tells me too if they are dishonorably discharged and loose many of the bonuses you get for joining the military such as the medical care and paying for your schooling they may be willing to work with gays. Think about it, if your choice is work with this person or be kicked out of the army dishonorably and loose all your benefits...you may end up being happy to serve with that gay guy all of a sudden.

I am still more worried about gays being the target of friendly fire.
 
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