The PAD Echo Syndrome: First the Brits, Now the Canadians

PittsburghAfterDark

CAGiversary!
Wow, didn't I just say this? Didn't you all just laugh at me? Yes, I'm not the only one that thinks the populus that thinks like the majority of you is.... wrong. First it was the Brits, now the Candians. Don't worry, I'll keep posting more evidence that I'm right and you're wrong. Why?

Because I'm just a nice guy that way.

Gerard Baker

March 04, 2005

What have the Americans ever done for us? Liberated 50 million people...

ONE OF MY favourite cinematic moments is the scene in Monty Python’s Life of Brian when Reg, aka John Cleese, the leader of the People’s Front of Judea, is trying to whip up anti-Roman sentiment among his team of slightly hesitant commandos.

“What have the Romans ever done for us?” he asks.

“Well, there’s the aqueduct,” somebody says, thoughtfully. “The sanitation,” says another. “Public order,” offers a third. Reg reluctantly acknowledges that there may have been a couple of benefits. But then steadily, and with increasing enthusiasm, his men reel off a litany of the good things the Romans have wrought with their occupation of the Holy Land.

By the time they’re finished they’re not so sure about the whole insurgency idea after all and an exasperated Reg tries to rally them: “All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”

I can’t help but think of that scene as I watch the contortions of the anti-American hordes in Britain, Europe and even in the US itself in response to the remarkable events that are unfolding in the real Middle East today.

Little more than three years after US forces, backed by their faithful British allies, set foot in Afghanistan, the entire historical dynamic of this blighted region has already shifted.

Ignoring, fortunately, the assault from clever world opinion on America’s motives, its credibility and its ambitions, the Bush Administration set out not only to eliminate immediate threats but also to remake the Middle East. In the last month, the pace of progress has accelerated, and from Beirut to Kabul.

Confronted with this awkward turn of events, Reg’s angry successors are asking their cohorts: “What have the Americans ever done for us?” “Well, they did get rid of the Taleban in Afghanistan. ’Orrible bunch, they were.”

“All right, the Taleban, I grant you.”

“Then there was Iraq. Knocked off one of the nastiest dictators who ever lived and gave the whole nation a chance to pick its own rulers.”

“Yeah, all right. Fair enough. I didn’t like Saddam.”

“Libya gave up its nuclear weapons.”

“And then there’s Syria. Thousands of people on the streets of Lebanon. Syrians look like they’re pulling out.”

“I just heard Egypt’s going to hold free presidential elections for the first time. And Saudi Arabia just held elections too.”

“The Palestinians and the Israelis are talking again and they say there’s a real chance of peace this time.”

“All right, all right. But apart from liberating 50 million people in Iraq and Afghanistan, undermining dictatorships throughout the Arab world, spreading freedom and self-determination in the broader Middle East and moving the Palestinians and the Israelis towards a real chance of ending their centuries-long war, what have the Americans ever done for us?”

It’s too early, in fairness, to claim complete victory in the American-led struggle to bring peace through democratic transformation of the region. Despite the temptation to crow, we must remember that this is not Berlin 1989. There will surely be challenging times ahead in Iraq, Iran, in the West Bank and elsewhere. The enemies of democratic revolution — all the terrorists and Baathists, the sheikhs, the mullahs and the monarchs — are not going to give up without a fight.

But something very important is happening now, something that will be very hard to stop. And, although not all of it can be directly attributed to the US strategy in the region, can anyone seriously argue that it would have happened without it? Neither is it true, as some have tried to argue, that all of this is merely some unintended consequence of an immoral and misconceived war in Iraq.

It was always the express goal of the Bush Administration to change the regime in Baghdad, precisely because of the opportunities for democracy it would open up in the rest of the Arab world. George Bush understands the simple but historically demonstrable thesis that freedom is not only the most basic of human rights, but also the best way to ensure that nations do not go to war with each other.

In a speech one month before the start of the Iraq war in 2003, Mr Bush laid out the strategy: “The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.”

I doubt that anybody, even the most prescient in the Bush Administration or at 10 Downing Street, thought the progress we are now seeing would come as quickly as it has.

But what was clear to the bold foreign policy strategists in Washington was that the status quo that existed before September 11 could no longer be tolerated. Much of the Muslim world represented decay and stagnation, and bred anger and resentment. That was the root cause of the terrorism that had attacked America with increasing ferocity between 1969 and 2001.

America’s critics craved stability in the Middle East. Don’t rock the boat, they said. But to the US this stability was that of the mass grave; the calm was the eerie quiet that precedes the detonation of the suicide bomb. The boat was holed and listing viciously.

As a foreign policy thinker close to the Administration put it to me, in the weeks before the Iraq war two years ago: “Shake it and see. That’s what we are going to do.” The US couldn’t be certain of the outcome, but it could be sure that whatever happened would be better than the status quo.

And so America, the revolutionary power, plunged in and shook the region to its foundations. And it is already liking what it sees.

[email protected]

The Times UK

March 11, 2005

Maybe Bush was right

Even U.S. critics agree that the Iraq invasion may have sparked democracy

PETER MANSBRIDGE

There I was , standing near the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, or West Berlin as it was then called. It was November 1989, I was perched on a makeshift TV platform, and as far as I could see, on either side, there were anchors from other countries doing just what I was doing -- talking to a camera about the incredible story unfolding just metres away. The Wall, that concrete symbol of the Cold War that had split West from East, was coming down, piece by piece, as hammers, big and small, made one blow after another. And those few days signalled -- well, just what did they signal? Now, years later, we know they meant the beginning of the end of the Soviet Empire and its stranglehold on Eastern Europe. But at the time we weren't quite sure what the Wall's demise represented. Everyone agreed it was momentous, but did it simply mean the two Germanys were reuniting? When I look back at the broadcasts during that period, it was that reunification issue that most of us were echoing.

The next week I was in Moscow, and while there was a whiff of official despair in the air with other East Bloc countries also facing freedom marches, no one seriously suggested that the Russia we'd all grown up with, the heart of Communist power, was about to crater into oblivion. Sometimes when you're in the middle of change, it's difficult to judge just how extensive the movement is and what the impact will be.

Which brings us to the Middle East today, and how we're trying to judge the depth of what clearly is change. In less than a year, we've seen relatively free elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, a hint of democracy in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, the death of Yasser Arafat and the election of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian who seems bent on finding peace with Israel. And most recently, the remarkable scenes in Lebanon where people power has again stared down the guns of seized power. Is freedom really on the march across the Middle East, as George W. Bush and those who've helped design his foreign policy giddily suggest? Actually, that theory is now gaining support from unlikely sources.

Remember Walid Jumblatt? He was a familiar face in the media of the 1980s as Lebanon went through its agonizing civil war -- a long-time Druze parliamentarian, he was often heard railing against the U.S. for intervening in the mess that was his country. Now, his thoughts have a different tone. Last week, he told the Washington Post: "It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting, eight million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world." Strange is right, because this is the same man whose visa to the U.S. was pulled after he had called Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defence, a "virus," even publicly wished for his death -- all for that same policy that led to the invasion of Iraq two years ago this month.

It is early in this process, but Jumblatt, a controversial figure at the best of times, isn't hesitant with his prediction of where all this is going. To him, what's happening here is similar to those history-making November days 16 years ago. In fact, he made the direct comparison by claiming that the people in his world "all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen." We'll see.

Peter Mansbridge is Chief Correspondent of CBC Television News and Anchor of The National.

Macleans.ca Article

This guy works for the CBC which is left of CBS!
 
The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life.”

The focus is wrong. In maintaining peace, democracy can help, but stability is more important. An unstable democracy is far more likely to give rise to civil wars, conflicts, and terrorism than a stable dictatorship. Unstable and new democracies are probably the most fragile of all political systems, especially when you consider most of africa was, at one point, a democracy. Though in regards to the article as a whole, every country has people that voice virtually every political opinion, it's good to see you found one who agreed with you in the u.k. Then again, that's probably the easiest country to find a pro bush/u.s. argument, with the exception of Israel.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Though in regards to the article as a whole, every country has people that voice virtually every political opinion, it's good to see you found one who agreed with you in the u.k. Then again, that's probably the easiest country to find a pro bush/u.s. argument, with the exception of Israel.[/quote]

You forgot Poland :wave:
 
[quote name='alonzomourning']The focus is wrong. In maintaining peace, democracy can help, but stability is more important. An unstable democracy is far more likely to give rise to civil wars, conflicts, and terrorism than a stable dictatorship. Unstable and new democracies are probably the most fragile of all political systems, especially when you consider most of africa was, at one point, a democracy... [/quote]

Let me just say for the record that Alonzo is :

in favor of stable dictatorships instead of new and possibly unstable democracies. I guess since there is a possibility unstableness, no one should even try to change a repressive government becuase stability is more important than freedom.

Perhaps we should return to Brittish rule since our current unstableness and divided political nature may bring rise to another civil war which could be averted by a dictatorial divine right regime.

Though in regards to the article as a whole, every country has people that voice virtually every political opinion, it's good to see you found one who agreed with you in the u.k. Then again, that's probably the easiest country to find a pro bush/u.s. argument, with the exception of Israel.

Lets also keep in mind that in your coveted dictatorships, people with contrary opinions are usually murdered for dissention. It's almost unfathomable that someone such as you, living comforatbly in a democratic society, can attempt an argument defending the suppression of freedom of others accross the globe as a good thing. I guess it is as long as it's not in HIS OWN back yard.

I guess we know who WOULD NOT HAVE signed the bottom of the Declaration Of Independence and pledge their fortune and sacred honor for their own freedom, and that of the world.
 
[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='alonzomourning']The focus is wrong. In maintaining peace, democracy can help, but stability is more important. An unstable democracy is far more likely to give rise to civil wars, conflicts, and terrorism than a stable dictatorship. Unstable and new democracies are probably the most fragile of all political systems, especially when you consider most of africa was, at one point, a democracy... [/quote]

Let me just say for the record that Alonzo is :

in favor of stable dictatorships instead of new and possibly unstable democracies. I guess since there is a possibility unstableness, no one should even try to change a repressive government becuase stability is more important than freedom.

Perhaps we should return to Brittish rule since our current unstableness and divided political nature may bring rise to another civil war which could be averted by a dictatorial divine right regime.

Though in regards to the article as a whole, every country has people that voice virtually every political opinion, it's good to see you found one who agreed with you in the u.k. Then again, that's probably the easiest country to find a pro bush/u.s. argument, with the exception of Israel.

Lets also keep in mind that in your coveted dictatorships, people with contrary opinions are usually murdered for dissention. It's almost unfathomable that someone such as you, living comforatbly in a democratic society, can attempt an argument defending the suppression of freedom of others accross the globe as a good thing. I guess it is as long as it's not in HIS OWN back yard.

I guess we know who WOULD NOT HAVE signed the bottom of the Declaration Of Independence and pledge their fortune and sacred honor for their own freedom, and that of the world.[/quote]

Once again you miss the point. The op's article was suggesting that democracy was the key to maintaining peace and minimizing conflict and terrorism, I said that was incorrect. Once again you put words in my mouth, I never said anything about preferences or which is better, all I said was when it comes to reducing conflict, a stable dictatorship is more effective than an unstable democracy. Since when did an observation necessarily become a statement of political leaning? Though, just out of curiosity, I would find it interesting if you could explain to me how the u.s. isn't a stable nation, as you suggested.
 
Yes, because we all know media outlets owned by NewsCorp present 100% fair, unbiased reporting, of both reality and of what the average people thinks. :roll:
 
Yeah, the CBC is owned by Newscorp.

Peter Mansbridge is the Canadian Dan Rather, Brian Williams or Peter Jennings and the CBC is a state/government run entity.

Nice try though! Maybe next time.
 
He seems to think the current situation in palestine has something to do with bush. Though, Mansbridge is probably the most respected anchor in canada, so at least for once you got a respected person.

Though you seem to be blowing the opinion of a small minority out of proportion, you also seem to assume that this means they support bush's methods and most of what he has done.

Also, considering the constant mention of the fall of the soviet union, really think about that one. Sure, the spread of democracy is good (not that all of the former soviet countries are really democratic), but if you look at where they are now there are a lot of problems due to the rapid fall. Even Russia is becoming less and less democratic, crime, the mob (which had a huge boon when the soviets collapsed. The majority of the wealthiest people in russia are there due to black market activity, and journalists are too fearful to ever put that in print. Their organized crime connections are why the printing of the wealthiest russians last year was such a big deal), and poverty have all increased. There are huge problems, much of it due to the way change was handled. And again, many former soviet republics are not democratic.
 
There's a wold of difference betwen former Soviet countries that made up the USSR and those that were in the Eastern Bloc as far as their march or trend to democracy.

Obviously East Germany was absorbed by the West. Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovokia, Slovenia and Romania all became NATO members. The only Soviet states to get NATO membership were the Baltic states; Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. It's still up in the air if the Ukraine will move that way.

There are several of the "-stans" of the USSR that are far from democratic. Even Georgia is suspect sometimes at it's transparency. However this isn't about the fall of Communism in Europe and the USSR.

The world is changing and more and more people are recognizing without a driving force like the United States and its President these changes wouldn't be occuring. You can argue the reasons for the Iraq war until you're blue in the face but how we got there is moot at this point. It's like arguing the context of our involvement in Nicaragua, Vietnam or Korea when the Berlin Wall fell.

Its time for people to get over the fact that the intelligence services of the world failed but because of that failure the world is becoming better off because of it. If you want to put the fall of the East in context not one Western service predicted the rapid disintegration of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet client states in 1989. Maybe we should bitch that they were all wrong, misguided and led to life changing turmoil for dozens of countries and hundreds of millions of people like critics today would like us to do.
 
The failures of the fall of the soviet union are relevant, since that is what many are comparing this to, and many want immediate, drastic changes. Some of the changes are brought about by bush, such as Iraq, and Afghanistan. Libya had long been taking steps to get back in the international community and improve its economy and Ghadaffi simply found a president who was willing to negotiate. Some of the changes (particularly palestine), discussions for peace were compromised by bush's and sharons refusal to negotiate with arafat, and arafats death is the only reason there is improvement there. While others may have happened anyway, but appear to be responses to international diplomatic pressure (such as egypt), the type that is favored by bush's opponents. Let's also remember the scare that Iraq caused, pushing north korea and Iran closer to nuclear weapons as a deterrent.

The world is changing and more and more people are recognizing without a driving force like the United States and its President these changes wouldn't be occuring.

I've watched mansfield, the article does not appear to suggest that, and the line of thinking you suggest seems to be different from his overal way of thinking. What you seem to be doing is taking people who share an element of your way of thinking, and assuming it means something more.

Though again, even if you were to find people with very similar worldviews to yourself (mansfield does not fit this, I don't know who the other guy is), all you have shown is a small minority.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'] Libya had long been taking steps to get back in the international community and improve its economy and Ghadaffi simply found a president who was willing to negotiate.[/quote]

There you go ladies and gentlemen. An upfront admission and recognition that Bush was more apt at handling negotiation for Ghadaffi's disarmament, dropping of international sanctions and re-admission into the international community than any of his predecessors.

Who would have thunk it.

Maybe in the next 6 months we'll get this boiled down to how Democrats have done nothing but obstruct this march to freedom and have opposed it every step of the way and those protesting our middle east policy are the equivilent of Hanoi Jane and those traitors that backed the North Vietnamese instead of their own country.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, the CBC is owned by Newscorp.

Peter Mansbridge is the Canadian Dan Rather, Brian Williams or Peter Jennings and the CBC is a state/government run entity.

Nice try though! Maybe next time.[/quote]
Ah, i see you added more stuff to the original post. I didn't notice that before. There IS a reason why you're allowed to reply in a topic that you've already posted in: most people don't go back and reread the stuff you posted 5 posts back just to see if you added new stuff...

Anyway, I'm not really sure if this is much of a 'congratulations' for Bush. All the article really says is that some people thing Bush's policies may have caused some of the changes. Well duh. It doesn't even sounds like the author agrees with the assessment, and is simply reporting on other people's beliefs. "We'll see." isn't exactly an overwhelmingly positive response to the situation.

And as was already said, most of the stuff that people want to give Bush for in the M.E. is due to stuff that happened that was far outside of Bush's influence.
 
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