The Revelation You'll Have When You Grow Up

PittsburghAfterDark

CAGiversary!
It's too bad I won't be around in 30-40 years when some of you really "get it". I know it will happen though. Here's a liberal that saw the light after 30+ years of evidence. Let the hate begin!

Leaving the left

I can no longer abide the simpering voices of self-styled progressives -- people who once championed solidarity

Keith Thompson

Nightfall, Jan. 30. Eight-million Iraqi voters have finished risking their lives to endorse freedom and defy fascism. Three things happen in rapid succession. The right cheers. The left demurs. I walk away from a long-term intimate relationship. I'm separating not from a person but a cause: the political philosophy that for more than three decades has shaped my character and consciousness, my sense of self and community, even my sense of cosmos.

I'm leaving the left -- more precisely, the American cultural left and what it has become during our time together.

I choose this day for my departure because I can no longer abide the simpering voices of self-styled progressives -- people who once championed solidarity with oppressed populations everywhere -- reciting all the ways Iraq's democratic experiment might yet implode.

My estrangement hasn't happened overnight. Out of the corner of my eye I watched what was coming for more than three decades, yet refused to truly see. Now it's all too obvious. Leading voices in America's "peace" movement are actually cheering against self-determination for a long-suffering Third World country because they hate George W. Bush more than they love freedom.

Like many others who came of age politically in the 1960s, I became adept at not taking the measure of the left's mounting incoherence. To face it directly posed the danger that I would have to describe it accurately, first to myself and then to others. That could only give aid and comfort to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and all the other Usual Suspects the left so regularly employs to keep from seeing its own reflection in the mirror.

Now, I find myself in a swirling metamorphosis. Think Kafka, without the bug. Think Kuhnian paradigm shift, without the buzz. Every anomaly that didn't fit my perceptual set is suddenly back, all the more glaring for so long ignored. The insistent inner voice I learned to suppress now has my rapt attention. "Something strange -- something approaching pathological -- something entirely of its own making -- has the left in its grip," the voice whispers. "How did this happen?" The Iraqi election is my tipping point. The time has come to walk in a different direction -- just as I did many years before.

I grew up in a northwest Ohio town where conservative was a polite term for reactionary. When Martin Luther King Jr. spoke of Mississippi "sweltering in the heat of oppression," he could have been describing my community, where blacks knew to keep their heads down, and animosity toward Catholics and Jews was unapologetic. Liberal and conservative, like left and right, wouldn't be part of my lexicon for a while, but when King proclaimed, "I have a dream," I instinctively cast my lot with those I later found out were liberals (then synonymous with "the left" and "progressive thought").

The people on the other side were dedicated to preserving my hometown's backward-looking status quo. This was all that my 10-year-old psyche needed to know. The knowledge carried me for a long time. Mythologies are helpful that way.

I began my activist career championing the 1968 presidential candidacies of Robert Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy, because both promised to end America's misadventure in Vietnam. I marched for peace and farm worker justice, lobbied for women's right to choose and environmental protections, signed up with George McGovern in 1972 and got elected as the youngest delegate ever to a Democratic convention.

Eventually I joined the staff of U.S. Sen. Howard Metzenbaum, D-Ohio. In short, I became a card-carrying liberal, although I never actually got a card. (Bookkeeping has never been the left's strong suit.) All my commitments centered on belief in equal opportunity, due process, respect for the dignity of the individual and solidarity with people in trouble. To my mind, Americans who had joined the resistance to Franco's fascist dystopia captured the progressive spirit at its finest.

A turning point came at a dinner party on the day Ronald Reagan famously described the Soviet Union as the pre-eminent source of evil in the modern world. The general tenor of the evening was that Reagan's use of the word "evil" had moved the world closer to annihilation. There was a palpable sense that we might not make it to dessert.

When I casually offered that the surviving relatives of the more than 20 million people murdered on orders of Joseph Stalin might not find "evil'" too strong a word, the room took on a collective bemused smile of the sort you might expect if someone had casually mentioned taking up child molestation for sport.

My progressive companions had a point. It was rude to bring a word like "gulag" to the dinner table.

I look back on that experience as the beginning of my departure from a left already well on its way to losing its bearings. Two decades later, I watched with astonishment as leading left intellectuals launched a telethon- like body count of civilian deaths caused by American soldiers in Afghanistan. Their premise was straightforward, almost giddily so: When the number of civilian Afghani deaths surpassed the carnage of Sept. 11, the war would be unjust, irrespective of other considerations.

Stated simply: The force wielded by democracies in self-defense was declared morally equivalent to the nihilistic aggression perpetuated by Muslim fanatics.

Susan Sontag cleared her throat for the "courage" of the al Qaeda pilots. Norman Mailer pronounced the dead of Sept. 11 comparable to "automobile statistics." The events of that day were likely premeditated by the White House, Gore Vidal insinuated. Noam Chomsky insisted that al Qaeda at its most atrocious generated no terror greater than American foreign policy on a mediocre day.

All of this came back to me as I watched the left's anemic, smirking response to Iraq's election in January. Didn't many of these same people stand up in the sixties for self-rule for oppressed people and against fascism in any guise? Yes, and to their lasting credit. But many had since made clear that they had also changed their minds about the virtues of King's call for equal of opportunity.

These days the postmodern left demands that government and private institutions guarantee equality of outcomes. Any racial or gender "disparities" are to be considered evidence of culpable bias, regardless of factors such as personal motivation, training, and skill. This goal is neither liberal nor progressive; but it is what the left has chosen. In a very real sense it may be the last card held by a movement increasingly ensnared in resentful questing for group-specific rights and the subordination of citizenship to group identity. There's a word for this: pathetic.

I smile when friends tell me I've "moved right." I laugh out loud at what now passes for progressive on the main lines of the cultural left.

In the name of "diversity," the University of Arizona has forbidden discrimination based on "individual style." The University of Connecticut has banned "inappropriately directed laughter." Brown University, sensing unacceptable gray areas, warns that harassment "may be intentional or unintentional and still constitute harassment." (Yes, we're talking "subconscious harassment" here. We're watching your thoughts ...).

Wait, it gets better. When actor Bill Cosby called on black parents to explain to their kids why they are not likely to get into medical school speaking English like "Why you ain't" and "Where you is," Jesse Jackson countered that the time was not yet right to "level the playing field." Why not? Because "drunk people can't do that ... illiterate people can't do that."

When self-styled pragmatic feminist Camille Paglia mocked young coeds who believe "I should be able to get drunk at a fraternity party and go upstairs to a guy's room without anything happening," Susan Estrich spoke up for gender- focused feminists who "would argue that so long as women are powerless relative to men, viewing 'yes' as a sign of true consent is misguided."

I'll admit my politics have shifted in recent years, as have America's political landscape and cultural horizon. Who would have guessed that the U.S. senator with today's best voting record on human rights would be not Ted Kennedy or Barbara Boxer but Kansas Republican Sam Brownback?

He is also by most measures one of the most conservative senators. Brownback speaks openly about how his horror at the genocide in the Sudan is shaped by his Christian faith, as King did when he insisted on justice for "all of God's children."

My larger point is rather simple. Just as a body needs different medicines at different times for different reasons, this also holds for the body politic.

In the sixties, America correctly focused on bringing down walls that prevented equal access and due process. It was time to walk the Founders' talk -- and we did. With barriers to opportunity no longer written into law, today the body politic is crying for different remedies.

America must now focus on creating healthy, self-actualizing individuals committed to taking responsibility for their lives, developing their talents, honing their skills and intellects, fostering emotional and moral intelligence, all in all contributing to the advancement of the human condition.

At the heart of authentic liberalism lies the recognition, in the words of John Gardner, "that the ever renewing society will be a free society (whose] capacity for renewal depends on the individuals who make it up." A continuously renewing society, Gardner believed, is one that seeks to "foster innovative, versatile, and self-renewing men and women and give them room to breathe."

One aspect of my politics hasn't changed a bit. I became a liberal in the first place to break from the repressive group orthodoxies of my reactionary hometown.

This past January, my liberalism was in full throttle when I bid the cultural left goodbye to escape a new version of that oppressiveness. I departed with new clarity about the brilliance of liberal democracy and the value system it entails; the quest for freedom as an intrinsically human affair; and the dangers of demands for conformity and adherence to any point of view through silence, fear, or coercion.

True, it took a while to see what was right before my eyes. A certain misplaced loyalty kept me from grasping that a view of individuals as morally capable of and responsible for making the principle decisions that shape their lives is decisively at odds with the contemporary left's entrance-level view of people as passive and helpless victims of powerful external forces, hence political wards who require the continuous shepherding of caretaker elites.

Leftists who no longer speak of the duties of citizens, but only of the rights of clients, cannot be expected to grasp the importance (not least to our survival) of fostering in the Middle East the crucial developmental advances that gave rise to our own capacity for pluralism, self-reflection, and equality. A left averse to making common cause with competent, self- determining individuals -- people who guide their lives on the basis of received values, everyday moral understandings, traditional wisdom, and plain common sense -- is a faction that deserves the marginalization it has pursued with such tenacity for so many years.

All of which is why I have come to believe, and gladly join with others who have discovered for themselves, that the single most important thing a genuinely liberal person can do now is walk away from the house the left has built. The renewal of any tradition that deserves the name "progressive" becomes more likely with each step in a better direction.

Link
 
I used to be a Republican because I really did think it stood for fiscal responsibility, strengthening America's defenses/alliances, and a reduction of the government's influence in my life (I know, what a sucker). George W has cured me of my illusions.
 
[quote name='camoor']I used to be a Republican because I really did think it stood for fiscal responsibility, strengthening America's defenses/alliances, and a reduction of the government's influence in my life (I know, what a sucker). George W has cured me of my illusions.[/QUOTE]

When you support abolishing all government entitlement programs and approve of 50%+ of federal government spending on defense (As it was in the 1950 an 60's) you can brandish your Republican credentials mmmkay? Somehow I think, nay, know, you're just full of it.

Super. Have a nice day.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']When you support abolishing all government entitlement programs and approve of 50%+ of federal government spending on defense (As it was in the 1950 an 60's) you can brandish your Republican credentials mmmkay? Somehow I think, nay, know, you're just full of it.

Super. Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]

Well, I do support abolishing government support of faith-based initiatives and radically reforming welfare.

I also think military defense (and NOT nation-building) should be one of the few main costs of the government.

I'm not so radical to think that government should divest itself fully of looking out for the middle class, that's how economic depressions start.
 
Bush has certainly thrown fiscal responsibility out the window, and increased government spending throughout his term. If a Republican candidate ran on a platform of fiscal responsibility and decreased government, I'd vote for him. All these laws and amendments Republicans push for that are based on religious beliefs are BS.
 
Just typical inflamatory bullshit posted by PAD, nothing new.

It is just his little hobby to try and stir up the boards through hhate mongering.


One of these days he will have a heart attack or stroke from the hypertension onset by his hatefulness.


[quote name='Backlash']If a Republican candidate ran on a platform of fiscal responsibility and decreased government, I'd vote for him.[/QUOTE]

You mean if a republican ran as a liberal democrat you would vote for him?
 
[quote name='Backlash']If a Republican candidate ran on a platform of fiscal responsibility and decreased government, I'd vote for him.[/QUOTE]

You mean if a republican ran as a liberal democrat ou would vote for him?
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']
You mean if a republican ran as a liberal democrat you would vote for him?[/QUOTE]

No, the Democrats tend to waste gov money as well (on diff things), but at least they're willing to pay for it (i.e. not have tax cuts while increasing spending or fighting a war). I think I heard my views described as libertarian once, but I never looked into it as I don't really care much about the labels.
 
I would like to encounter a debate where neither side is hobbled by irrational emotion. Not that getting all fired up is always a bad thing, but a fair number of voices gravitate towards hyperbole, unable to shake the childish dependence on name calling, putting all perspectives in extremes and blindness brought on by rage.

For varying reasons, the 20th century saw some of the worst American presidents in power independent of political party affiliation, lining up a harding with a jfk or nixon is damn near embarrassing for ALL americans.

There are examples of republicans, democrats and independents whom i wouldn't trust to generate policy for my kids, let alone feel confident enough to allow them to watch my dog for even 20 minutes. A party affiliation is not a shield from personal incompetence, of which America has always had a great abundance of. If this fellow feels disconnected from a political spectum as he interprets it, that's his choice. If you feel more empowered by comparing someone you dislike to a fantasy character from a movie, that is also your choice. But if you are trying to influence others from a rational, thoughtful perspective, assuming one has not abandoned it completely, emotions cloud better judgment.
 
[quote name='Backlash']No, the Democrats tend to waste gov money as well (on diff things), but at least they're willing to pay for it (i.e. not have tax cuts while increasing spending or fighting a war). I think I heard my views described as libertarian once, but I never looked into it as I don't really care much about the labels.[/QUOTE]

I thought it was in the nature of most politicians to waste money :)
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']When you support abolishing all government entitlement programs and approve of 50%+ of federal government spending on defense (As it was in the 1950 an 60's) you can brandish your Republican credentials mmmkay? Somehow I think, nay, know, you're just full of it.

Super. Have a nice day.[/QUOTE]

I do, but I'm not a fundementalist bigot. Am I in or out?
 
[quote name='ZarathosNY']Here's a rebuttal by a blog to this moron.

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/05/running-like-coward.html[/QUOTE]

Was this link supposed to be a thoughtful intelligent rebuttal? Cause it fell just a little short. If this guy is really a moron as you say, why don't you tell us how and why? I thuoght that the OP's criticisms were thoughtful and well-articulated. Calling him a moron or a fuck doesn't really get the job done.
 
When I got to the part where he called limbaugh, coulter etc. rational I stopped reading. When I go to frontpagemag and start reading an article about how women should be barefoot in the kitchen, I alway guess it's a coulter article and, lo and behold, it always is. Call me when seniors stop voting for liberals, and liberal states (and countries) stop existing.
 
Sorry but we've heard this before. The patronizing of conservatives. To the young they say "when you are older you'll be conservative", to the poor they say "when you are rich you'll be conservative", to the black "when you understand how our party could help you, you'll be conservative" and on and on.

It presumes that we just haven't really thought about the issues yet. Gimme a break. As I make more $$ (top 5% in household income), as I get older, as I have kids, I've gotten more liberal.

To the article..it displays a startling immaturity about one own convictions. 1.) why the need to make grand and pretentious statements? 2.) how do you NOT know that you don't believe something anymore? 3.) How do let others define who you are and what you believe?

Honestly, I couldn't care less if one person becomes conservative. But painting all liberals as he has is intellectually dishonest. Come to think of it, he'll fit right in with conservatives.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']When I got to the part where he called limbaugh, coulter etc. rational I stopped reading. When I go to frontpagemag and start reading an article about how women should be barefoot in the kitchen, I alway guess it's a coulter article and, lo and behold, it always is. Call me when seniors stop voting for liberals, and liberal states (and countries) stop existing.[/QUOTE]

Then obviously you must have read the whole thing because no such thing was said.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']When I got to the part where he called limbaugh, coulter etc. rational I stopped reading. When I go to frontpagemag and start reading an article about how women should be barefoot in the kitchen, I alway guess it's a coulter article and, lo and behold, it always is. Call me when seniors stop voting for liberals, and liberal states (and countries) stop existing.[/QUOTE]

What I read from his comments on those paragons of virtue, was that the left essentially holds up those examples to trick people into not seeing the good in the conservative movement.

I found the article insightful.

PAD, you're just an agitator. I'd like to see one intelligent thing posted by you that someone else didn't already write.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Then obviously you must have read the whole thing because no such thing was said.[/QUOTE]

That could only give aid and comfort to Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and all the other Usual Suspects the left so regularly employs to keep from seeing its own reflection in the mirror.


Though, fan, that may be another way of seeing that line. Though I've read these sort of articles many times, nothing new to learn or hear really. I'm not in the mood to read it fully at this time, and there's nothing about it that seems to set it apart from other articles I've read. That goes for the conservatives who became liberal as well, it's always the same. They tend to be more one sided and biased because they feel that they "saw the light", it's like born again religious people.
 
[quote name='usickenme']Sorry but we've heard this before. The patronizing of conservatives. To the young they say "when you are older you'll be conservative", to the poor they say "when you are rich you'll be conservative", to the black "when you understand how our party could help you, you'll be conservative" and on and on.

It presumes that we just haven't really thought about the issues yet. Gimme a break. As I make more $$ (top 5% in household income), as I get older, as I have kids, I've gotten more liberal.[/QUOTE]

What is this guy saying that makes you say these things, or are you just injecting this into it? If you have really thought about the issues, then what is your response to the ones that he's brought up about the left?

[quote name='usickenme']To the article..it displays a startling immaturity about one own convictions. 1.) why the need to make grand and pretentious statements? 2.) how do you NOT know that you don't believe something anymore? 3.) How do let others define who you are and what you believe?[/QUOTE]

1) what grand and pretentious statements are you referring to?

2) he says throughout that he saw many occasions where the 'left' stance no longer reflected a truly liberal outlook; but he, like most, ignored them because he refused to accept that the party could stray so far from its beginnings.

3) intially, the liberal party was completely in keeping with what he believed and who he was. Unfortunately, because he had identified himself with the party, he felt the need to continue to do so even after it was clear that the goals of the party had changed.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Though, fan, that may be another way of seeing that line. Though I've read these sort of articles many times, nothing new to learn or hear really. I'm not in the mood to read it fully at this time, and there's nothing about it that seems to set it apart from other articles I've read. That goes for the conservatives who became liberal as well, it's always the same. They tend to be more one sided and biased because they feel that they "saw the light", it's like born again religious people. [/QUOTE]

it seems really one-sided and biased to post commentary on something you didn't even bother to read. Maybe if you tried reading something before making snap judgements fanskad wouldn't need to clue you in to the context.

I'm not trying to attack you, but I think that if you don't even bother to read a post, you shouldn't waste everyone's time responding.
 
[quote name='atreyue']What is this guy saying that makes you say these things, or are you just injecting this into it? If you have really thought about the issues, then what is your response to the ones that he's brought up about the left?[/QUOTE]

This is reference to the OP title of the thread (and wholly consistant with other conservative who have said "when ____ a happens, you'll be conservative"



[quote name='atreyue']
1) what grand and pretentious statements are you referring to?

2) he says throughout that he saw many occasions where the 'left' stance no longer reflected a truly liberal outlook; but he, like most, ignored them because he refused to accept that the party could stray so far from its beginnings.

3) intially, the liberal party was completely in keeping with what he believed and who he was. Unfortunately, because he had identified himself with the party, he felt the need to continue to do so even after it was clear that the goals of the party had changed.[/QUOTE]

1.) the article...30 years after his "turning point"
2.) Sounds to me like you are agreeing with what I said. That was my point, you do know when your beliefs differ from a movement. So he willfully choose to ignore that in order to, I guess, be accepted. Sounds like his is equally at fault.
3.) Yes, he is letting others (and by that it seems a narrow group of his friends) define was liberalism is instead of himself. Anyone that has a slavish devotion to a movement above personal conviction is a tool . Also "liberalism" isn't a party.

4.) furthermore, I fault this guy for his limited (almost cliched) defination of "the Left"
 
[quote name='atreyue']Was this link supposed to be a thoughtful intelligent rebuttal? Cause it fell just a little short. If this guy is really a moron as you say, why don't you tell us how and why? I thuoght that the OP's criticisms were thoughtful and well-articulated. Calling him a moron or a fuck doesn't really get the job done.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I was referring to the author of the article, not the OP.
 
[quote name='ZarathosNY']Actually, I was referring to the author of the article, not the OP.[/QUOTE]

Since just about all of PAD's post was the article, when I said OP, I was referring to the writer of the article. I thought the moron was actually the writer of the blog.
 
[quote name='usickenme']This is reference to the OP title of the thread (and wholly consistant with other conservative who have said "when ____ a happens, you'll be conservative"[/QUOTE]

My bad then.


[quote name='usickenme']1.) the article...30 years after his "turning point"
2.) Sounds to me like you are agreeing with what I said. That was my point, you do know when your beliefs differ from a movement. So he willfully choose to ignore that in order to, I guess, be accepted. Sounds like his is equally at fault.
3.) Yes, he is letting others (and by that it seems a narrow group of his friends) define was liberalism is instead of himself. Anyone that has a slavish devotion to a movement above personal conviction is a tool . Also "liberalism" isn't a party.

4.) furthermore, I fault this guy for his limited (almost cliched) defination of "the Left"[/QUOTE]

There's no question that he was at fault for sticking around after he knew the truth about the party and its motives.

I would like to know where the goals of the 'left' differ from what he has stated them to be. Since I read the OP, I've been waiting for someone to defend liberals by basically saying "This is where the article was wrong about our party and here's the reason why". Instead of an actual debate about the issues that he has brought up using evidence (such as there is) or beliefs, there's just been accusatory statements made without any substance. If his definition of the left is faulty, don't just say it is. Tell me what the true definition is.
 
[quote name='atreyue']My bad then.




There's no question that he was at fault for sticking around after he knew the truth about the party and its motives.

I would like to know where the goals of the 'left' differ from what he has stated them to be. Since I read the OP, I've been waiting for someone to defend liberals by basically saying "This is where the article was wrong about our party and here's the reason why". Instead of an actual debate about the issues that he has brought up using evidence (such as there is) or beliefs, there's just been accusatory statements made without any substance. If his definition of the left is faulty, don't just say it is. Tell me what the true definition is.[/QUOTE]

The problem with the left is that it doesn't seem to have a sense of itself right now.

There is no real organization, you have too much infighting. There is no clear party leader, and the person closest to that position keeps making stupid mistakes.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']This reminds me of a quote:

"Not all conservatives are stupid, but all stupid people are conservatives."
-John Stuart Mill[/QUOTE]

It's actually:
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives."
- John Stuart Mill

As one of the founding fathers of Utilitarianism, Mill was not one to deal in absolutes.
 
[quote name='atreyue']it seems really one-sided and biased to post commentary on something you didn't even bother to read. Maybe if you tried reading something before making snap judgements fanskad wouldn't need to clue you in to the context.

I'm not trying to attack you, but I think that if you don't even bother to read a post, you shouldn't waste everyone's time responding.[/QUOTE]

Eh, you have a point, but at least I admit to not reading all of it (only some). Though, I said that as the reason why I really didn't have the interest in reading it, and I'm only in this conversation cause I commented on a line I did read.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Eh, you have a point, but at least I admit to not reading all of it (only some). Though, I said that as the reason why I really didn't have the interest in reading it, and I'm only in this conversation cause I commented on a line I did read.[/QUOTE]

I think it would be to your benefit to read the entire article. This didn't seem to me to be the normal attempt at mudslinging manyt have come to expect. I'm also curious to see what your take is on the article as a whole and the writer's take on current liberal ideology.
 
[quote name='atreyue'] I've been waiting for someone to defend liberals by basically saying "This is where the article was wrong about our party and here's the reason why". Instead of an actual debate about the issues that he has brought up using evidence (such as there is) or beliefs, there's just been accusatory statements made without any substance. If his definition of the left is faulty, don't just say it is. Tell me what the true definition is.[/QUOTE]

that is kind of a hard question. Basically the main thrust of the article is wrong because the Left is by nature more wide open then this guy gives it credit for. The Left isn't just the few people cited in the article. AND those many of those have been consistant with regard to war.

As for a criticizing the election? Gimme a break. First of all, the criticism comes in many forms but none are "We are giving the Iraqis too much power". On the contrary, the Left wants a free Iraq but the criticism is whether is version being advertised in the real deal. Also what is the price of that. Remember we thrusted this freedom on them. You can't discount the method used to "give" Iraqis their freedom. I'll bet if the Iraqis rose up themselves and overthrew Saddam you would find no such criticisms. It is wholly dishonest to say because the of the manner in which the Iraqi obtained their freedom and current conditions of that freedom are suspect that means the Left hates freedom.

As for political correctness, I'll be the first guy to admit that in some cases it has gone too far. However, the examples he provided give no context. Additionally, PC isn't limited to the Left. Such thing as "you can't criticize a president during war" or "you can't support the troops and not support the president" or Bill Maher losing his show for saying for saying that flying a plane into a building is a lot less cowardly than launching a cruise missile at a target thousands of miles away or God-Forbid you mention some less than desirable aspects about religion. In fact labeling reasonable behavior as "politically correct" has itself become a form of insult in a politically correct way.

Just 2 things from the confession I had problems with.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']It's too bad I won't be around in 30-40 years [/QUOTE]

Is that all the longer we have to wait? Well the future looks bright indeed then.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Only the Sith and neoconservatives speak in absolutes.

Come, join the light side, vote Democratic.[/QUOTE]

You missed it, but Scrubking (remember old rolly eyes) had Obi Wan Kenobi as his avatar for a while. I for one found it pretty hilarious.
 
[quote name='usickenme']that is kind of a hard question. Basically the main thrust of the article is wrong because the Left is by nature more wide open then this guy gives it credit for. The Left isn't just the few people cited in the article. AND those many of those have been consistant with regard to war.

As for a criticizing the election? Gimme a break. First of all, the criticism comes in many forms but none are "We are giving the Iraqis too much power". On the contrary, the Left wants a free Iraq but the criticism is whether is version being advertised in the real deal. Also what is the price of that. Remember we thrusted this freedom on them. You can't discount the method used to "give" Iraqis their freedom. I'll bet if the Iraqis rose up themselves and overthrew Saddam you would find no such criticisms. It is wholly dishonest to say because the of the manner in which the Iraqi obtained their freedom and current conditions of that freedom are suspect that means the Left hates freedom.

As for political correctness, I'll be the first guy to admit that in some cases it has gone too far. However, the examples he provided give no context. Additionally, PC isn't limited to the Left. Such thing as "you can't criticize a president during war" or "you can't support the troops and not support the president" or Bill Maher losing his show for saying for saying that flying a plane into a building is a lot less cowardly than launching a cruise missile at a target thousands of miles away or God-Forbid you mention some less than desirable aspects about religion. In fact labeling reasonable behavior as "politically correct" has itself become a form of insult in a politically correct way.

Just 2 things from the confession I had problems with.[/QUOTE]

*rant*
In my humble opinion, Bill Maher can go to fucking hell. His paltry attempt to romanticize terrorist action is just self-serving bullshit. When countries are at war, they can feel free to launch cruise missles, dive bomb buildings in NYC or whatever they please, however much it might suck. Such is the nature of war. Nothing personal, but I get pissed every time I'm reminded of that.
*end rant*

I realize that my question might have been too open, so I've provided the quotes that I think sum up the best points of his arguement. Is this really a generalization of liberal ideals or is he on to something?

These days the postmodern left demands that government and private institutions guarantee equality of outcomes. Any racial or gender "disparities" are to be considered evidence of culpable bias, regardless of factors such as personal motivation, training, and skill. This goal is neither liberal nor progressive; but it is what the left has chosen. In a very real sense it may be the last card held by a movement increasingly ensnared in resentful questing for group-specific rights and the subordination of citizenship to group identity.

True, it took a while to see what was right before my eyes. A certain misplaced loyalty kept me from grasping that a view of individuals as morally capable of and responsible for making the principle decisions that shape their lives is decisively at odds with the contemporary left's entrance-level view of people as passive and helpless victims of powerful external forces, hence political wards who require the continuous shepherding of caretaker elites.

Leftists who no longer speak of the duties of citizens, but only of the rights of clients, cannot be expected to grasp the importance (not least to our survival) of fostering in the Middle East the crucial developmental advances that gave rise to our own capacity for pluralism, self-reflection, and equality. A left averse to making common cause with competent, self- determining individuals -- people who guide their lives on the basis of received values, everyday moral understandings, traditional wisdom, and plain common sense -- is a faction that deserves the marginalization it has pursued with such tenacity for so many years.
 
Ok, now all my responses will deal with normal liberals/democrats, as I firmly believe I cannot know general right wing beliefs by listening to the nutjobs who believe all abortion doctors should be excecuted, and I will give the same courtesy when discussing liberals.


A turning point came at a dinner party on the day Ronald Reagan famously described the Soviet Union as the pre-eminent source of evil in the modern world. The general tenor of the evening was that Reagan's use of the word "evil" had moved the world closer to annihilation. There was a palpable sense that we might not make it to dessert.


When I casually offered that the surviving relatives of the more than 20 million people murdered on orders of Joseph Stalin might not find "evil'" too strong a word, the room took on a collective bemused smile of the sort you might expect if someone had casually mentioned taking up child molestation for sport.

Funny, I don't remember any genocide happening under gorbachev (or brezhnev who I hate). Hell, look at what happened with the rapid fall. Assuming gorbachev remained in power, russia and soviet satellites would probably be in a much better place than they are now.

I look back on that experience as the beginning of my departure from a left already well on its way to losing its bearings. Two decades later, I watched with astonishment as leading left intellectuals launched a telethon- like body count of civilian deaths caused by American soldiers in Afghanistan. Their premise was straightforward, almost giddily so: When the number of civilian Afghani deaths surpassed the carnage of Sept. 11, the war would be unjust, irrespective of other considerations.

Stated simply: The force wielded by democracies in self-defense was declared morally equivalent to the nihilistic aggression perpetuated by Muslim fanatics


Funny, I thought most democrats supported afghanistan. And I don't know any who thought the war was the moral of 9/11.

Susan Sontag cleared her throat for the "courage" of the al Qaeda pilots. Norman Mailer pronounced the dead of Sept. 11 comparable to "automobile statistics." The events of that day were likely premeditated by the White House, Gore Vidal insinuated. Noam Chomsky insisted that al Qaeda at its most atrocious generated no terror greater than American foreign policy on a mediocre day.


Hmm.. so we trot out the extremists liberals as examples of the entire liberal ideology and democratic party, makes sense. And so what? Someone who gives up their life for a cause, willingly flying to their death, is a hell of a lot braver than I am. Just as you can say hitler was a great politician, you can say a terrorist is brave, in now way does that indicate support or admiration for them.

All of this came back to me as I watched the left's anemic, smirking response to Iraq's election in January. Didn't many of these same people stand up in the sixties for self-rule for oppressed people and against fascism in any guise? Yes, and to their lasting credit. But many had since made clear that they had also changed their minds about the virtues of King's call for equal of opportunity.

Hmm... I think the lack of an outcry from Iraqis for our help is one of the main reasons the people were so against it. See, illegal war, no international public support (and tacit and just passable government support), and no real call for a war from the civilians we were supposedly going to "liberate". Facade? Nowhere in liberal beliefs is it okay to forcefully invade another country with the support of the invading countries population (obvious exception would be a country like nazi germany, or during a genocide such as rwanda, or even when the kurds were being slaughtered).

These days the postmodern left demands that government and private institutions guarantee equality of outcomes. Any racial or gender "disparities" are to be considered evidence of culpable bias, regardless of factors such as personal motivation, training, and skill. This goal is neither liberal nor progressive; but it is what the left has chosen. In a very real sense it may be the last card held by a movement increasingly ensnared in resentful questing for group-specific rights and the subordination of citizenship to group identity. There's a word for this: pathetic.

The left wants to take the proper steps level the playing field as best as possible. To suggest environment, family etc. do not play a role in a myriad of opinions, behaviors, actions etc. is not consistent with science. You raise a kid in a poverty stricken, crime ridden neighborhood, with no father, a mother who has to work all day, no one to watch the kids, poor school system etc. the kid is going to reflect that.

In the name of "diversity," the University of Arizona has forbidden discrimination based on "individual style." The University of Connecticut has banned "inappropriately directed laughter." Brown University, sensing unacceptable gray areas, warns that harassment "may be intentional or unintentional and still constitute harassment." (Yes, we're talking "subconscious harassment" here. We're watching your thoughts ...).
Wait, it gets better. When actor Bill Cosby called on black parents to explain to their kids why they are not likely to get into medical school speaking English like "Why you ain't" and "Where you is," Jesse Jackson countered that the time was not yet right to "level the playing field." Why not? Because "drunk people can't do that ... illiterate people can't do that."


out of context and twisted to fit his argument.

I'll admit my politics have shifted in recent years, as have America's political landscape and cultural horizon. Who would have guessed that the U.S. senator with today's best voting record on human rights would be not Ted Kennedy or Barbara Boxer but Kansas Republican Sam Brownback?
He is also by most measures one of the most conservative senators. Brownback speaks openly about how his horror at the genocide in the Sudan is shaped by his Christian faith, as King did when he insisted on justice for "all of God's children."


Hmm.. needs more than one example to decide this. Also, I've encountered many people who believed, or started rallies and campaigns, to send troops, peacekeepers, anything to stop the genocide in sudan, and they've all been liberal.

In the sixties, America correctly focused on bringing down walls that prevented equal access and due process. It was time to walk the Founders' talk -- and we did. With barriers to opportunity no longer written into law, today the body politic is crying for different remedies.

Breaking down legal barriers is a hell of a lot different, and easier, than breaking social, cultural, and personal biases, prejudices and discrimination.

True, it took a while to see what was right before my eyes. A certain misplaced loyalty kept me from grasping that a view of individuals as morally capable of and responsible for making the principle decisions that shape their lives is decisively at odds with the contemporary left's entrance-level view of people as passive and helpless victims of powerful external forces, hence political wards who require the continuous shepherding of caretaker elites.

The left acknowledges that differen upbrinding, environment etc. will produce different decisions and different ways of thinking, and will have different effects on different people. Nurture greatly effects peoples lives, they are not helpless victims, but they are not all mighty gods who reject everything that is harmful in their environment and society, and let none of it effect them.

Leftists who no longer speak of the duties of citizens, but only of the rights of clients, cannot be expected to grasp the importance (not least to our survival) of fostering in the Middle East the crucial developmental advances that gave rise to our own capacity for pluralism, self-reflection, and equality. A left averse to making common cause with competent, self- determining individuals -- people who guide their lives on the basis of received values, everyday moral understandings, traditional wisdom, and plain common sense -- is a faction that deserves the marginalization it has pursued with such tenacity for so many years.


Common knowledge, wisdon and moral understanding has brought us a lot of problems, racism, bigotry, sexism, prevent gay marriage etc. To hold it up as some shining light of a healthy society is preposterous.

And besides, since when has forcing our will on nations (and, again, obvious exceptions of when we were directly attacked and genocide. Which reminds me, I really wish we took care of pol pot, or at least stop supporting him, and not waited for vietnam to do it) been for the better?


My previous comments all stand, this is a standard, run of the mill "seen the light" argument.
 
George W Bush is not a Republicain. No side likes him anymore, everyone know sees that he is a crazy wacko.

I wish that gernade went off.
 
[quote name='David85']George W Bush is not a Republicain. No side likes him anymore, everyone know sees that he is a crazy wacko.

I wish that gernade went off.[/QUOTE]

lol, though he is worshipped by many still.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']


Though, fan, that may be another way of seeing that line. Though I've read these sort of articles many times, nothing new to learn or hear really. I'm not in the mood to read it fully at this time, and there's nothing about it that seems to set it apart from other articles I've read. That goes for the conservatives who became liberal as well, it's always the same. They tend to be more one sided and biased because they feel that they "saw the light", it's like born again religious people. [/QUOTE]

I wish that was true. Liberals could use some one-mindedness to battle the Republican "with US or against USA" drones.
 
[quote name='camoor']I wish that was true. Liberals could use some one-mindedness to battle the Republican "with US or against USA" drones.[/QUOTE]

Every side has them, we just don't have them shouting down opponents, and anything they don't like, on the radio and tv. And if we do, they immediately pounce on it like it's something that only a liberal would ever dare doing. Take a walk over to counterpunch, indymedia or the myriad of other similar sites.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']The left wants to take the proper steps level the playing field as best as possible. To suggest environment, family etc. do not play a role in a myriad of opinions, behaviors, actions etc. is not consistent with science. You raise a kid in a poverty stricken, crime ridden neighborhood, with no father, a mother who has to work all day, no one to watch the kids, poor school system etc. the kid is going to reflect that.

The left acknowledges that differen upbrinding, environment etc. will produce different decisions and different ways of thinking, and will have different effects on different people. Nurture greatly effects peoples lives, they are not helpless victims, but they are not all mighty gods who reject everything that is harmful in their environment and society, and let none of it effect them.[/QUOTE]

I guess that it boils down to people either taking responsibility for themselves or not. Personally, I think that the viewpoint you give here heavily promotes the idea of people's rights while taking away their responsibilities. The argument about Cosby wasn't taken out of context or twisted. He very publically called on the Black community to rehabilitate itself, take responsibility, and, in doing so, take control of its future. Cowards and perpetuators like Jesse Jackson, who have grown extremely comfortable with a lifestyle usually afforded to children (who have no responsibilities), became extremely afraid of the changes they themselves would have to make if they gave up their own excuses. This is why the majority of the Black community that makes informed political decisions are democrats. Meanwhile, the increase in black republicans is most likely in a direct relationship to the increase in the number of blacks who have 'escaped their poverty (read:lot in life) against overwhelming odds'. If you asked most of them, they probably wouldn't think that feat as herculean as many here claim.

Then there are the people (like you and many others here, from my observation) who feel perfectly fine in expounding this same theory, yet happen to exist completely outside of the ethnic (or socio-economic, take your pick) groups that it affects. Thus the writer's idea of 'caretaker elites'. You don't know anything about the actual situation, but still feel as if your ideas, research and statistics somehow allow you to figure it all out. Not really surprising. By your own logic, people born to your station are bound to be superior to your economic inferiors. It's just the principle of nurture at work. A viewpoint as convenient as it is condescending. Yet the republicans are the ones who are elitist? They say that everyone should take care of themselves as much as they are able. The democratic response is "Those unfortunate poor people just can't do anything for themselves. Their entire lifes are determined by the economic class they are born into; and, as such, they cannot hope to overcome their base desires and make anything of themselves. Poor things just don't have that in their curriculum. What a shame. At least we can take care of them and step in when they make too much of a mess with their lives. Sterilize the ones that won't stop having babies. Thank god we're so socially responsible!"
 
[quote name='atreyue'] The democratic response is "Those unfortunate poor people just can't do anything for themselves. Their entire lifes are determined by the economic class they are born into; and, as such, they cannot hope to overcome their base desires and make anything of themselves. Poor things just don't have that in their curriculum. What a shame. At least we can take care of them and step in when they make too much of a mess with their lives. Sterilize the ones that won't stop having babies. Thank god we're so socially responsible!"[/QUOTE]

Shame? no sham. From whose ass did you pull this crap out of. You seem to be always ready to jump on someone for their inferences but it's okay for you. This is the essential problem I have. Folks like you, who , instead of listening to what liberals saying with an actual open mind, only listen to misconstrue what they hear. It is also telling that for all your verbage, you still come back to "if blacks made more money and were smarter, they would be Republicans".

That is NOT the democratic response. In fact it is the opposite. We don't want people lives to be determined by the economic class they are born in. But we DO recognize the disadvantage it places on people. And we realize that the money spent to help is not only helping them, it is an investment in the society at large. That is why we are for things like Pell Grants and school lunches. Now I know that sometimes this lead to a few people having a sense of entitlement. But I don't care. It is small price to pay for the vast majority who turn that small bit of help into a good life. Myself included.

And if you think this is the democratic response, then wouldn't this be the response to nearly every charity out there???
 
I also want to address the sham of "personal responsibility". Why is it that "responsibility" is only ever placed on the ones who need help? To me, all it really does is allow some conservatives to feel good about doing nothing. I am all for responsibility but I recognize that I, as a person with some succes, also have a responsibility. And I ask the my Government and Businesses also have responsibility as well. When they don't take it, it is my "responsibilty" to ask questions.
 
[quote name='atreyue']Yet the republicans are the ones who are elitist? They say that everyone should take care of themselves as much as they are able.[/QUOTE]

Pure bull. Faith-based initiatives are now federally funded (thanks Bush admin) - this is tantamount to the government stepping in and propping up a religion that already gets heavy tax breaks. All of this is done in the name of promoting charity, so don't tell me that Republicans are the new modern-day Libertarians.

Besides, what about all the Republican talk of "we are helping the poor destitute people of Iraq because they are powerless to even start a rebellion for democracy and capitalism themselves". Nation-building is elitism in it's most transparent form.

I do agree with many of the criticisms of the Democratic party, but don't be so quick to absolve the Republicans of elitism.
 
[quote name='atreyue']I guess that it boils down to people either taking responsibility for themselves or not. Personally, I think that the viewpoint you give here heavily promotes the idea of people's rights while taking away their responsibilities. [/quote]

The system I advocate attempts to level the playing field, as much as possible, so people will rise and fall based on their own effort, while trying to minimize the harmful effects of racism, poverty etc. The system advocated by many conservatives fails to admit that living in crime/drug infested neighborhoods, in areas with a poor and overcrowded education system, no day care to watch kids, and in poverty will, or even can, effect the decisions a person makes, their oppurtunities, and the life they will life. A person living in a ghetto in chicago has to put in a lot more effort and have a lot more luck just to get what was handed to me.
The argument about Cosby wasn't taken out of context or twisted. He very publically called on the Black community to rehabilitate itself, take responsibility, and, in doing so, take control of its future. Cowards and perpetuators like Jesse Jackson, who have grown extremely comfortable with a lifestyle usually afforded to children (who have no responsibilities), became extremely afraid of the changes they themselves would have to make if they gave up their own excuses. This is why the majority of the Black community that makes informed political decisions are democrats. Meanwhile, the increase in black republicans is most likely in a direct relationship to the increase in the number of blacks who have 'escaped their poverty (read:lot in life) against overwhelming odds'. If you asked most of them, they probably wouldn't think that feat as herculean as many here claim.

I was referring to the overal paragraph. The cosby one wasn't so much out of context in itself (though it does come across a little different than intended), but jacksons response was. "Jesse Jackson countered that the time was not yet right to "level the playing field." Why not? Because "drunk people can't do that ... illiterate people can't do that", means something needs to be done about the problems in the community, many due to the lingering effects of the history of africans in this country and the prejudice that exists to this day, and the results of all that. Cosby just referred to cosmetic changes, jackson says where not at that point yet.

Then there are the people (like you and many others here, from my observation) who feel perfectly fine in expounding this same theory, yet happen to exist completely outside of the ethnic (or socio-economic, take your pick) groups that it affects.

Well, that's true, but most of my friends are minorities, and I do know people who are poor, living in trailer parks or on welfare (most of my family is poor), so it's not like I have no connection whatsoever to people like that.

Thus the writer's idea of 'caretaker elites'. You don't know anything about the actual situation, but still feel as if your ideas, research and statistics somehow allow you to figure it all out. Not really surprising. By your own logic, people born to your station are bound to be superior to your economic inferiors. It's just the principle of nurture at work. A viewpoint as convenient as it is condescending.

The ones in power are the ones who can do something, and people born with more wealth and better economic status wield more power in this country, to get things done in this country you usually need the support of those people, or at least force them to do something.

Yet the republicans are the ones who are elitist? They say that everyone should take care of themselves as much as they are able. The democratic response is "Those unfortunate poor people just can't do anything for themselves. Their entire lifes are determined by the economic class they are born into; and, as such, they cannot hope to overcome their base desires and make anything of themselves. Poor things just don't have that in their curriculum. What a shame. At least we can take care of them and step in when they make too much of a mess with their lives. Sterilize the ones that won't stop having babies. Thank god we're so socially responsible!"

Sterilize, how is that a liberal view? Even on this board in the topic, I strongly opposed it. Though the liberal goal is to, the best of societies ability, to level the playing field. To make it easier for people born into disadvantaged background to have the same advantages that people born into middle and upper classes have. It is not to keep them that way, or to suggest that no matter where you're born, the situation or environment that you're born into, or any other factor should play no role in the ultimate outcome of your life, which is what is suggested by economic liberalism.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Wow, you mean when I am 50 I will bean asshole like you guys?

I think I'll hang myself at 49 then.[/QUOTE]

Save us all a lot of trouble and do it in the morning. Take this evening to say your goodbyes.
 
bread's done
Back
Top