Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings: YendelTrex is going to tear me apart!!!

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dohdough

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I have to admit that I'm morbidly curious about what this particular CAG has to say about it considering he calls it a myth, lie, fraud, etc. Since he hasn't really demonstrated any knowledge on any subject, he wisely suggested that I start a new thread and for the enjoyment of vs. CAGs on any side of the ideological spectrum, here is where I will be torn apart and revealed as the fanatic that only YendelTrex can show.

For those that are unaware, there was an old campaign accusation against Thomas Jefferson about siring children with one of his slaves. As any political junkie with any sense of history would know, they used to fight a lot dirtier back then and this type of accusation isn't unusual. Anywho, the rumor never really went away and in the late 1990's, there was finally a DNA test, as part of a research commission, to put the rumor to rest and long story short, it was concluded that Jefferson had a child with Hemings, which is now accepted as accurate.

Now like all things, controversy didn't end there and a group splintered off to make their own report saying that it was one of Jefferson's brothers and that Hemings had multiple partners. The ones pushing this particular trope are generally right wingers and complain about the mainstream media and liberal agenda trying to indoctrinate our youths or some garbage like that.

Yes, folks, it's exactly like a Jerry Springer episode and any other politicized issue.

Let the fray begin!
 
So where is the proof that THOMAS JEFFERSON had a relationship with her and that he fathered children? I don't see any proof from you or for that matter ANYONE.

In fact it was never proven. In fact it is believed even by the scholars group that most likely it is the brother Randolf.

Is it possible sure it it possible but possible is not proof. Myth and or hoax my words were used as there is NO ABSOLUTE PROOF but at times have been put forth as that.

Sorry I have to do a quick copy and paste from a quick search. I am leaving for Denver tonight I will be out for a few days but this should suffice until then.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chap...rson-and-Sally-Hemings-one-of-history-s-myths

The Jefferson-Hemings Controversy: Report of the Scholars Commission, is a new look at a very old dispute, except this time the dozen scholars behind the book are disrupting years’ worth of research that suggests that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with his slave Sally Hemings.
Best nonfiction books of 2010

The Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society, a group that seeks to defend Jefferson’s image, is behind the book, which documents the results of a yearlong research
inquiry by a dozen scholars across the nation working without compensation for the Heritage Society. Carolina Academic Press will release the 400-page book Thursday.
Ever since a 1998 DNA test was performed on Sally’s youngest child, Eston, scholars have thought for years that a Jefferson male, assumed to be Thomas
Jefferson, fathered the boy. But those tests didn’t even involve DNA from Thomas Jefferson and only established that Eston was probably fathered by any one of more than two dozen Jefferson men living in Virginia at the time, “The Jefferson-Hemings Controversy” asserts. In fact, the scholars point to Jefferson’s brother, Randolph, as the likely father of Hemings’ son.
The book also disputes accounts that Hemings’ children received special treatment from Jefferson, evidence some have used to suggest that the third president had a special relationship with Hemings. Neither Hemings nor her children received unusual privileges at Monticello, the scholars argue in the book. In fact, all of Hemings’ relations were not, in fact, given freedom at age 21, as is commonly believed.
“It is true that Sally’s sons Madison and Eston were freed in Jefferson’s will, but so were all but two of the sons and grandsons of Sally’s mother Betty Hemings who still belonged to Thomas Jefferson at the time of his death. Sally’s sons received by far the least favorable treatment of those freed in Thomas Jefferson’s will,” Robert F. Turner, a former professor at the University of Virginia who served as chairman of the commission, told The Washington Times.
According to the Washington Times, the scholars cite the following evidence in the Heritage Society commission report:
• Arguments that the relationship between Hemings and Jefferson started in Paris are unlikely because she was living with his daughters at their boarding school
across the city at the time.
• The “Jefferson family” DNA used in the 1998 test came from descendants of Jefferson's uncle, which the scholars said means any one of two dozen Jefferson men living in Virginia at the time Eston was conceived could have been the father.
• Oral tradition from Eston Hemings’ family initially said he was not the son of the president, but rather of an “uncle” – which the scholars think is a reference
to Randolph Jefferson, the president’s brother, who would have been referred to as “uncle” by Jefferson’s daughters.
Ultimately, there is no way to completely prove or disprove the claims that Jefferson fathered six children with Hemings.
But “The Jefferson-Hemings Controversy” questions years of accepted wisdom on the matter; pokes holes at the paradox of the freedom-touting third president owning and sleeping with his slaves; and brings to light serious questions about slavery and race in America.

Did he or didn’t he? We’ll never know. But we’re glad the debate is getting Americans talking about important – albeit often uncomfortable – issues in our country’s history.


...........................................................................................


here is another link and there are plenty more.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/jefferson.htm



I will not be reading or responding to any posts until I get back I will gladly address them at that time.
. As for now I stand fast that like the last line of the paste above did he or didn't he we will NEVER KNOW.

As far as fraud or at the minimum supremely bad editing look at the book by [FONT=Georgia,]and her representations of fact and a letter that like nbc a vital part was edited out but used as the smoking gun.. Annette Gordon-Reed’s 1997 book, Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings
[/FONT]
 
[quote name='dohdough']I have to admit that I'm morbidly curious about what this particular CAG has to say about it considering he calls it a myth, lie, fraud, etc. Since he hasn't really demonstrated any knowledge on any subject, he wisely suggested that I start a new thread and for the enjoyment of vs. CAGs on any side of the ideological spectrum, here is where I will be torn apart and revealed as the fanatic that only YendelTrex can show.

For those that are unaware, there was an old campaign accusation against Thomas Jefferson about siring children with one of his slaves. As any political junkie with any sense of history would know, they used to fight a lot dirtier back then and this type of accusation isn't unusual. Anywho, the rumor never really went away and in the late 1990's, there was finally a DNA test, as part of a research commission, to put the rumor to rest and long story short, it was concluded that Jefferson had a child with Hemings, which is now accepted as accurate.

Now like all things, controversy didn't end there and a group splintered off to make their own report saying that it was one of Jefferson's brothers and that Hemings had multiple partners. The ones pushing this particular trope are generally right wingers and complain about the mainstream media and liberal agenda trying to indoctrinate our youths or some garbage like that.

Yes, folks, it's exactly like a Jerry Springer episode and any other politicized issue.

Let the fray begin![/QUOTE]

Jeffersons white descendants have been inviting the Jefferson/Hemings to their gatherings for a few years now IIRC. THEY MUST BE IN ON THE CONSPIRACY.
 
HAHAHA...I guess I'm following the typical LIEberal pattern and am going to attack the sources.

The Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society's goal is to protect Jefferson's reputation, image, whatever, so we MUST assume that they're the most non-biased source right? It's not like the group was established right after the 1998 report's conclusion about Jefferson's paternity or something like that.
It was.

And rumormillnews? Nothing rightwingnut about them either!

As for proof...proof is in the scholarship. That scholars group you reference is The Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society, which was headed by a dissenting member of the original group that did the research study. Most people that study Jefferson agree that he's the father. Shit, even the historians that refused to accept it before the DNA tests had a change of heart. It's only the fringe wingnuts and racists that say "WHERE'S DA PROOF!11ONE!" The argument is akin to saying that we can't prove the Big Bang happened because no one was there to tell us it happened or how evolution is a "theory." I bet you're going to bitch about bringing the big bang theory and evolution into an argument they have no place in, while ignoring how they're examples of the argument that you're making.

Here's the thing skippy: All data points towards Jefferson being the father. When new data pops up or there's access to actual DNA samples from Jefferson and his (great?)grandson through Hemings, then that data will be put into the equation and scholars will go from there. If the dissenters want to prove that Jefferson is conclusively not the father, then they'll have to do it the hard way and show why data matches the Jefferson's brother instead. The don't get to jump to the front of the line because they don't like the conclusion.

I can't wait til you get back and provide a source for your accusation of Gordon-Reeds book being a fraud.

edit: Honestly, I expected a serious thrashing in this thread, irrefutable proof, and all I got was a copy'n'paste job. I am disappoint.
 
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[quote name='dohdough']HAHAHA...I guess I'm following the typical LIEberal pattern and am going to attack the sources.

The Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society's goal is to protect Jefferson's reputation, image, whatever, so we MUST assume that they're the most non-biased source right? It's not like the group was established right after the 1998 report's conclusion about Jefferson's paternity or something like that.
It was.

And rumormillnews? Nothing rightwingnut about them either!

As for proof...proof is in the scholarship. That scholars group you reference is The Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society, which was headed by a dissenting member of the original group that did the research study. Most people that study Jefferson agree that he's the father. Shit, even the historians that refused to accept it before the DNA tests had a change of heart. It's only the fringe wingnuts and racists that say "WHERE'S DA PROOF!11ONE!" The argument is akin to saying that we can't prove the Big Bang happened because no one was there to tell us it happened or how evolution is a "theory." I bet you're going to bitch about bringing the big bang theory and evolution into an argument they have no place in, while ignoring how they're examples of the argument that you're making.

Here's the thing skippy: All data points towards Jefferson being the father. When new data pops up or there's access to actual DNA samples from Jefferson and his (great?)grandson through Hemings, then that data will be put into the equation and scholars will go from there. If the dissenters want to prove that Jefferson is conclusively not the father, then they'll have to do it the hard way and show why data matches the Jefferson's brother instead. The don't get to jump to the front of the line because they don't like the conclusion.

I can't wait til you get back and provide a source for your accusation of Gordon-Reeds book being a fraud.

edit: Honestly, I expected a serious thrashing in this thread, irrefutable proof, and all I got was a copy'n'paste job. I am disappoint.[/QUOTE]


What is the significance today if indeed Thomas Jefferson fathered chidren from one of his slaves (regardless if by romance or rape)?

Surely he wasn't the only slave owner to do so? Not that it makes it any more acceptable; Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe blacks were the first to be enslaved and raped in the Americas and certainly not the first in history.

Is it just because we love a scandal? Or because Thomas Jefferson was held in high regard?
 
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[quote name='GBAstar']What is the significance today if indeed Thomas Jefferson fathered chidren from one of his slaves (regardless if by romance or rape)?

Surely he wasn't the only slave owner to do so? Not that it makes it any more acceptable; Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe blacks were the first to be enslaved and raped in the Americas and certainly not the first in history.

Is it just because we love a scandal? Or because Thomas Jefferson was held in high regard?[/QUOTE]
I messed up the spoiler tag and just fixed it, so you might want to c'n'p the revision.

As for relevance today? There is none. YendelTrex said he was going to tear me apart if I started a new thread on it because I used the example of Jefferson having a romance with Hemings was a mischaracterization of that relationship in another thread. Long story short, he implied that I knew nothing about it and was going to enlighten me on the fraudulent nature of the controversy.

edit: You are correct about Africans not being the first slaves. Native Americans were.

edit2: I'm not heavily invested in this argument and was hoping to see him dish out some pwnage of EPIC proportions on me. Like I said: I am disappoint.
 
[quote name='dohdough']I messed up the spoiler tag and just fixed it, so you might want to c'n'p the revision.

As for relevance today? There is none. YendelTrex said he was going to tear me apart if I started a new thread on it because I used the example of Jefferson having a romance with Hemings was a mischaracterization of that relationship in another thread. Long story short, he implied that I knew nothing about it and was going to enlighten me on the fraudulent nature of the controversy.

edit: You are correct about Africans not being the first slaves. Native Americans were.[/QUOTE]


No I followed the other thread and I understand why you created this one...

I'm not very familar with all the details in the Thomas Jefferson case but I do remember reading about it years ago and I wasn't really shocked or surprised then but I guess I just don't understand the historical impact. Were people shocked because they learned that our forefathers (Celebrities of their time) are just as scummy as the celebrities today?
 
[quote name='GBAstar']No I followed the other thread and I understand why you created this one...

I'm not very familar with all the details in the Thomas Jefferson case but I do remember reading about it years ago and I wasn't really shocked or surprised then but I guess I just don't understand the historical impact. Were people shocked because they learned that our forefathers (Celebrities of their time) are just as scummy as the celebrities today?[/QUOTE]
That's part of it, but the broader implication was the white-washing of our country's history. It's also about historiography because rather than just accepting what we're taught as fact, we should be looking at history critically.
 
[quote name='dohdough']That's part of it, but the broader implication was the white-washing of our country's history. It's also about historiography because rather than just accepting what we're taught as fact, we should be looking at history critically.[/QUOTE]


^ Yeah that's what I figured

I had an AP history class in highschool that was taught by one of the older tenured professors at my school and we learned very little about actual American History but this dude loved to talk about who slept with who and who was into what.

It was actually pretty cool.

No doubt though. I always thought it was interesting that the history of any country varied greatly depending on the author(s) that wrote it and their agenda.

I'm sure this is more evident in countries over in Europe but even in the U.S. it is common.

I have a friend in Brazil I trade games with and he loves American History but what he has learned is quite different from what I learned in school.
 
[quote name='GBAstar']^ Yeah that's what I figured

I had an AP history class in highschool that was taught by one of the older tenured professors at my school and we learned very little about actual American History but this dude loved to talk about who slept with who and who was into what.

It was actually pretty cool.[/QUOTE]
Right and I think that a discussion about narrative is much more interesting.

No doubt though. I always thought it was interesting that the history of any country varied greatly depending on the author(s) that wrote it and their agenda.

I'm sure this is more evident in countries over in Europe but even in the U.S. it is common.

I have a friend in Brazil I trade games with and he loves American History but what he has learned is quite different from what I learned in school.
I don't know if I'd use "agenda" to describe it because it's kind of a loaded term that implies something subversive, when for most people, that history is constructed from the cultural narrative. I think that there's certainly room for nuanced views on history beyond the narrative and it's important to show the bad stuff. edit: As well as from different perspectives.
 
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As I said there is NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with the slave Sally Hemings.

I could post a hundred links to articles books etc and they all say the same thing. There is NO PROOF. Different sources and books argue accounts timelines etc etc. They also say and agree there is NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF.

Do I care if he did? No I don't. If he did fine and if he didn't fine. I do however care when someone puts something across as fact when it is not. This is one of those cases. I don't care if people want to discuss it and decide on their own as long as it is understood that THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF.

So there really is nothing more for me to say the proof is not there that TJ fathered children with her and if it is proven in the future cool but we are not in the future so now the PROOF IS NOT there.

edit: For me it is about that he alluded to it as a truth in the other thread and I said it is not. He has yet to PROVE that TJ did..why? because he can't. As I said a possibility sure but many things are possible that doesn't mean it is fact or cold hard truth. I thought him bringing up Thomas Jefferson, Hitler, and slavery in a response to an article about Zimmerman was inappropriate and I still do.

I am waiting for the proof..... Until then those that put it as fact or cold hard truth are IMO lying and it is fraud.
 
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In my opinion, I think that it definitely happened. BUT, I have to agree with YendelTrex. Proof is proof. And without proof, we're left with only assumptions. They may be damn good assumptions, but assumptions none the less.
 
This is a big deal? I thought it was common knowledge Jefferson had an affair. An interesting look into his character, but I don't see why people would be so defensive about this particular issue.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']This is a big deal? I thought it was common knowledge Jefferson had an affair. An interesting look into his character, but I don't see why people would be so defensive about this particular issue.[/QUOTE]

It is not common knowledge it is a myth that has not been proven. It has been widely discussed and researched but it is NOT a FACT.

I am sure different people are defensive for many different reasons. I can only speak for myself...I am only here to say that it is NOT FACT.
 
[quote name='dohdough']
I can't wait til you get back and provide a source for your accusation of Gordon-Reeds book being a fraud.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't say the book was a fraud...but it did seem that way.

As far as the letter I mentioned since I can find only one source (and that source is controversial at best) saying she edited out parts of the letter in her book I retract it and I was wrong since there is no other proof that I can find other than that one dodo.. Also it was reported (by same shaky source) that she changed the part to include the whole letter in printings after she was informed of the issue. So I don't think I will be able to confirm it unless I get an original copy of the book.

I do however think that her book was deceptive fraud and biased.(there I said it) (do not ask why because I will not answer)

Bottom line is it is not a fact that Thomas Jefferson had ANY kids with Sally. You basically calling me racist or a fringe wingnut for asking you for proof is disturbing.

Lets clear up what you think.

Do you think it is a proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with Sally Hemings? If yes then I again will ask you for that proof and you can call me racist again but you really should answer and show the proof unless you are just playing games.

edit: BTW I think we all know it is possible but again possible is not absolute proof. Like I said earlier
I don't care if people want to discuss it and decide on their own as long as it is understood that THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF.
 
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[quote name='YendelTrex']I didn't say the book was a fraud...but it did seem that way.[/quote]
Uhhh...wut? You said it in 3 out of 5 posts in this thread alone.

As far as the letter I mentioned since I can find only one source (and that source is controversial at best) saying she edited out parts of the letter in her book I retract it and I was wrong since there is no other proof that I can find other than that one dodo.. Also it was reported (by same shaky source) that she changed the part to include the whole letter in printings after she was informed of the issue. So I don't think I will be able to confirm it unless I get an original copy of the book.
Are you sure you're retracting it? Because the very next line in your post says otherwise.

I do however think that her book was deceptive fraud and biased.(there I said it) (do not ask why because I will not answer)
So you deny calling it a fraud, then retract calling it a fraud, and then call it a fraud in the three paragraphs you said you didn't call it a fraud, retract calling it a fraud, and then finally calling it a fraud without giving a reason why.

This is really a record on CAG. The dissonance runs so deep in you that you can't even keep a few sentences straight.

Bottom line is it is not a fact that Thomas Jefferson had ANY kids with Sally. You basically calling me racist or a fringe wingnut for asking you for proof is disturbing.
When someone uses the arguments of racists and rightwing fringe wingnuts, you shouldn't be surprised if people think you are one or both.

Lets clear up what you think.

Do you think it is a proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered children with Sally Hemings? If yes then I again will ask you for that proof and you can call me racist again but you really should answer and show the proof unless you are just playing games.

edit: BTW I think we all know it is possible but again possible is not absolute proof. Like I said earlier I don't care if people want to discuss it and decide on their own as long as it is understood that THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF.
All evidence points towards Thomas Jefferson being the mostlikely the father of Heming's children and the fact that there were 20? other Jeffersons in the country doesn't make a difference when most of them could be eliminated right away and the remainder are less likely to be candidates than Thomas Jefferson.

But the deeper question to your fallacious reasoning is your inability to understand the difference between a scientific theory and a layman's definition of theory. Gravity is a theory too, but I'm sure you wouldn't jump off a bridge to disprove it and there's no absolute proof that it exists either. Judging from all your posts, you have a very superficial understanding of the things you discuss, so it's not surprising that you miss the distinction between casta and the one drop rule, the meaning of theory in different contexts, and your inability to go deeper into discussions, therefore projecting your own self-loathing on to me. It's quite sad. Although, I've come to the conclusion that you're probably a freeper, which explains a lot more about the content of your posts.
 
My opinion on this whole matter is I don't know and don't really care. I think evidence shows it is POSSIBLE but that is all. I have not came down on either side and again I think it is possible and that is it.

This site actually argues more for the possiblitly then against it but still shows some different viewpoints.
.......................................................................................................................................................................................
However, Foster and his colleagues noted that they could not "completely rule out other explanations of our findings" based in "various lines of descent."

They concluded that "a male-line descendant of Field Jefferson could possibly have illegitimately fathered an ancestor of the presumed male-line descendant of Eston. But in the absence of historical evidence to support such possibilities, we consider them to be unlikely."

The Evidence Falls Short

In response to the question of paternity, the answer is no, DNA testing has not proven that Thomas Jefferson had at least one child with Hemings.

The data merely suggest that a number of males related to Thomas Jefferson could have fathered Eston. In other words, Jefferson was not the sole guardian of his genetic makeup; the XY chromosome is a DNA "family fingerprint" shared by some of his male relatives, any one of whom could have been the father of Hemings's son, Eston, or later fathered male descendants of Eston.

Because only living persons were tested, the Jefferson XY chromosome could have entered the lineage from several of Thomas Jefferson's contemporary male relatives or at any point in the almost 200 years since the rumor started.

Soon after the Foster article was published, Nature received letters, from scientists as well as nonprofessionals, disagreeing with the study results and, especially, disagreeing with the way they were reported.

In a letter to Nature that appeared in the January 1999 issue, David M. Abbey, MD, chief of medicine at Poudre Valley Hospital, Fort Collins, Colorado, and associate clinical professor of medicine at the Health Sciences Center at the University of Colorado, responded to the Foster study. "The DNA analysis of Y chromosome haplotypes used by Foster, et al to evaluate Thomas Jefferson's alleged paternity of Eston Hemings Jefferson is impressive," wrote Abbey. "However, the authors did not consider all the data at hand in interpreting their results. No mention was made of Jefferson's brother Randolph (1757-1815) or of his five sons. Sons of Sally Hemings conceived by Randolph (or by one of his sons) would produce a Y chromosome analysis identical to that described by Foster, et al." Abbey recommended that more data are needed to confirm Thomas Jefferson's paternity.

Could Jefferson's younger brother, Randolph, be considered an equal (if not better) candidate for being Eston's father? According to historian Eyler Robert Coates, records show that Randolph Jefferson was invited to Monticello in August 1807, about nine months before Eston was born in May 1808. Coates adds that Randolph had become a widower in 1806 and did not remarry until 1809; Coates speculates that Randolph was more likely in this period to be "susceptible to a sexual liaison." Of course, speculation over whether Randolph Jefferson, rather than Thomas Jefferson, was Eston's father is not a fact verifiable by science. He, like some other Jefferson males, was simply in the right place at the right time bearing the family XY chromosome.

Gary Davis, another letter correspondent, added in a letter to Nature (January 7, 1999), that "any male ancestor in Thomas Jefferson's line, black or white, could have fathered Eston Hemings. Plantations were inbred communities," wrote Davis, "and mixing of racial types was probably common .. . it is possible that Thomas Jefferson's father, grandfather or paternal uncles fathered a male slave whose line later impregnated another slave, in this case, Sally Hemings. Sally herself was a light mulatto, known even at this time to be Thomas Jefferson's wife's half sister."

Willard Randall, author of Thomas Jefferson: A Life and member of the God and Country Foundation, a group that seeks to safeguard the reputations of the founding fathers, said that at the time in question there were "20 to 25 men within 25 miles of Monticello who were all Jeffersons and had the same Y chromosome. Of them, 23 were younger than 65 year old Jefferson."

Shortcomings Are Acknowledged

Even the study's lead author, Foster, admits the evidence is not in any way conclusive about Thomas Jefferson's alleged relationship to Eston. After the controversy over his findings erupted, Foster said in a response letter to Nature (January 7, 1999): "It is true that men of Randolph Jefferson's family could have fathered Sally Hemings later children … . we know from the historical data and the DNA data that Thomas Jefferson can neither be definitely excluded nor solely implicated in the paternity of illegitimate children with his slave Sally Hemings."

As Abbey added, "a critical issue always facing science is confounding variables. It is the scientific standard to comment on such variables when presenting a study, and especially to note how such variables could impact results. It is surprising that the authors (in their original paper) did not even address other conclusions. Too, when the public is presented with authors disagreeing with the title of their own paper, and the press reports conflicting accounts as to the validity of the results, public confidence in the scientific process may be eroded and create unnecessary skepticism toward DNA research in general."

As reported in an article in the Washington Post (January 6, 1999), editors at Nature admitted that the headline was "unintentionally misleading" and confessed as well that more "alternative explanations" should have been included in their conclusions.

Foster was quick to point out the inconsistencies between the data, the conclusions, and the headline. In a follow-up letter in response to letters from Abbey and Davis, he reminded readers of their original objective: "When we embarked on this study, we knew the results could not be conclusive, but we hoped to obtain some objective data that would tilt the weight of evidence in one direction or another."

According to Jefferson historian and genealogist Barger, the evidence for Jefferson's paternity is not tilted in any direction by the data. In conclusion, the DNA XY chromosome testing shows only that Thomas Jefferson could have fathered Eston, but so could any of several of his male relatives. The science is inconclusive, putting the speculation about Jefferson and Hemings back into the category of gossip.

On April 8, 2000, the University of Richmond hosted an all-day symposium on the Jefferson-Hemings dispute. Although no publications came out of that symposium, the discussion was videotaped. The tape is at the University of Richmond. Eugene A. Foster, author of the Nature article, was among the participants.


Read more: http://www.scienceclarified.com/dis...f-his-slaves-Sally-Hemings.html#ixzz1tJLV0D00

edit:
[quote name='dohdough'].[/QUOTE]

As I thought you are just playing games. Put that with the fact you are basically saying I am a racist or fringed wingnut along with anyone else that does not see the ABSOLUTE PROOF where there is NO ABSOLUTE PROOF is disturbing. By your reasoning all the people invovled in this RESEARCH must be racist as well.

I knew you wouldn't answer the SIMPLE question. You are so full of IT.

"the one drop rule" you used it incorrectly and I will gladly debate and SHOW ALL of your posts on that and how you used it incorrectly. Want to start a thread on that too? I'll be there and post your incorrect use of it.

edit: I meant that her letter and her represtation of it in the book was fraud or extremely bad editing. I retracted that part and to be clear said that I think the book is deceptive fraud. I was wrong about the letter since I can only find one crazy souce for it. See I can admit I am wrong. Try it on for size!!
 
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[quote name='dohdough'].[/QUOTE]

As I thought you are just playing games. Put that with the fact you are basically saying I am a racist or fringed wingnut along with anyone else that does not see PROOF where there is NO PROOF is disturbing.

I knew you wouldn't answer the SIMPLE question. You are so full of IT.
 
[quote name='YendelTrex']My opinion on this whole matter is I don't know and don't really care. I think evidence shows it is POSSIBLE but that is all. I have not came down on either side and again I think it is possible and that is it.[/QUOTE]
You've already come out on the side that says that Thomas Jefferson can't be the father. You've made it abundantly clear in just about all your posts relating to the subject. Or does your use of the terms fraud, hoax, lies, and myths not in reference to it?

This site actually argues more for the possiblitly then against it but still shows some different viewpoints.
The site is a mess and I shouldn't need to go into why you should be making your own arguments instead of pulling cut'n'paste jobs out of your ass to argue for you. It's lazy and demonstrates how little you know about any given subject.

edit:
As I thought you are just playing games. Put that with the fact you are basically saying I am a racist or fringed wingnut along with anyone else that does not see the ABSOLUTE PROOF where there is NO ABSOLUTE PROOF is disturbing. By your reasoning all the people invovled in this RESEARCH must be racist as well.

I knew you wouldn't answer the SIMPLE question. You are so full of IT.
LOLZ...you never ask simple questions; only loaded ones. I already demonstrated that in another thread. Lemme find the link for you.

Here you go: http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9557367&postcount=38

As for the dissenting researchers being racist right-wing wingnuts? My guess is that they probably are. But as for you, I'm pretty comfortable with labeling you as a racist wingnut.

Btw, there's no absolute proof of gravity either. Care to jump off a building to disprove it? Or is it equally disturbing to you that I choose to accept the existence of gravity?
 
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Is is a lie or fraud or hoax when ANYONE puts it forth as fact when IT IS NOT. That is what I have been saying the entire time. That is all I have been saying. It is NOT FACT that TJ fathered any children with Sally. The fact that YOU WILL NOT answer the simple question only shows that you do not believe it to be fact either but none the less believe it. That is fine I don't care if you want to believe it to be true or not to be true. Again the bottomline is it is NOT FACT. In fact nobody involved in the orgianl DNA study believes it is FACT either. They just show the possiblity and also admit that it fits two dozen other men as well.

I gave my opinion on it and that is it is possible and that I don't care either way. AGAIN IT IS NOT FACT. I never said that Thomas Jefferson is the father or not the father. Just that it is NOT PROVEN but a possibility.

Answer the question...
Do you think it is proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally?

It is not a loaded question it is simple. I don't believe it is fact ...you can say it is your opinion you think it is true and that is fine I wont care. But lets get straight what you do think. Is it fact or not? Answer the damn question.

edit: You are taking issues with me posting the evidence and lack of it? Really!!??? You are getting desperate now.

Also stay focused little buddy this thread is about TJ and Sally. Not other threads and other arguments. As I said if you want to have it out on another topic then start a thread or bump that thread then PM me and we can have it out there about those topics. FOCUS.

It's okay you can admit that it is NOT PROVEN FACT it wont kill you.

edit two: I am racist in your opinion? Who am I racist against exactly? Black People White People Brown People WHO???
You are a joke!!

oh yes here is the real link not like the one you posted...http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319267&page=2
 
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[quote name='YendelTrex']Is is a lie or fraud or hoax when ANYONE puts it forth as fact when IT IS NOT. That is what I have been saying the entire time. That is all I have been saying. It is NOT FACT that TJ fathered any children with Sally. The fact that YOU WILL NOT answer the simple question only shows that you do not believe it to be fact either but none the less believe it. That is fine I don't care if you want to believe it to be true or not to be true. Again the bottomline is it is NOT FACT. In fact nobody involved in the orgianl DNA study believes it is FACT either. They just show the possiblity and also admit that it fits two dozen other men as well.

I gave my opinion on it and that is it is possible and that I don't care either way. AGAIN IT IS NOT FACT. I never said that Thomas Jefferson is the father or not the father. Just that it is NOT PROVEN but a possibility.

Answer the question...
Do you think it is proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally?

It is not a loaded question it is simple. I don't believe it is fact ...you can say it is your opinion you think it is true and that is fine I wont care. But lets get straight what you do think. Is it fact or not? Answer the damn question.

edit: You are taking issues with me posting the evidence and lack of it? Really!!??? You are getting desperate now.

Also stay focused little buddy this thread is about TJ and Sally. Not other threads and other arguments. As I said if you want to have it out on another topic then start a thread or bump that thread and we can have it out there about those topics. FOCUS.

It's okay you can admit that there is NO ABSOLUTE PROOF it wont kill you.

edit two: I am racist in your opinion? Who am I racist against exactly? Black People White People Brown People WHO???
You are a joke!![/QUOTE]
Its also possible that we're really descended from martians. THERE'S NO ABSOLUTE PROOF TO SAY OTHERWISE. I'm guessing that you're not going to make the connection between your statement and that.

As for Hemings, I accept it as fact until new evidence proves otherwise.

We can discuss any other issues you want to bring up here. It's part of the thread title, stupid. I also started the thread, so I can discuss anything I want. If you're uncomfortable with that,then YOU start a new thread. But I think keeping your trolling to one thread is probably the best thing for this forum.

As for you being racist, it goes back to your simplistic understanding of the term, among your many other simplistic views.

Now that I've answered your question about Jefferson-Hemings, please compare and contrast casta and the one drop rule.

And LOLZ at you staying away for a week.
 
[quote name='dohdough']
As for you being racist, it goes back to your simplistic understanding of the term, among your many other simplistic views.
[/QUOTE]

What is my simplistic understanding of it? Please tell. You didn't answer the question.

Nor did you answer the question about TJ you said you accept it as fact the question was "Do you think it is proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally?"

.....and no I will not get into the one drop rule here with you but I will gladly do it in another thread . . Sure you can talk about whatever you want but the title of the thread is
Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings: YendelTrex is going to tear me apart!!!



Which I have. So you can move on if you want from the topic as I won this one but don't expect me to be a part of it.


:rofl: :bouncy:
 
[quote name='dohdough']Its also possible that we're really descended from martians. THERE'S NO ABSOLUTE PROOF TO SAY OTHERWISE. I'm guessing that you're not going to make the connection between your statement and that.
[/QUOTE]

LOL now that is funny. Was there a dna test that showed it as a possibility but not as fact??

Is there proof that it is FACT?? I don't see anyone saying it is a fact. If they did then I would be all over that to.
I don't expect you to get that either.

AGAIN it (TJ AND SALLY) is a POSSIBILITY but not a FACT.

edit: "Do you think it is proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally?"
My answer as I have said before is no I don't think it is a proven FACT but a possibility. Any representation of it as FACT is a lie or fraud or hoax imo. Even the original study folks said the original title was unintentionally misleading as such.
 
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[quote name='YendelTrex']What is my simplistic understanding of it? Please tell. You didn't answer the question.

Nor did you answer the question about TJ you said you accept it as fact the question was "Do you think it is proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally?"

.....and no I will not get into the one drop rule here with you but I will gladly do it in another thread . . Sure you can talk about whatever you want but the title of the thread is
Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings: YendelTrex is going to tear me apart!!!



Which I have. So you can move on if you want from the topic as I won this one but don't expect me to be a part of it.


:rofl: :bouncy:[/QUOTE]
Your entire argument is based on the childish argument of "it's just a theory." It's the same argument that creationists use and would be laughed out of any serious debate. If you think it's such a profound argument that you've won, well...the the only thing you've proven here is that you are now the top crackpot on vs., so congratulations on a troll well done. I won't be creating any other threads to feed your ego either. I guess I can take that as capitulation because you refuse to address those issues here.

Oh, and since you said that you weren't going to be around for a few days, I'm pretty comfortable with labeling you as a liar for that as well. Congrats on winning that title too!

And just to see where this goes, it is proven fact that Jefferson raped Hemings, which produced offspring and she was not a slut like your dissenting wingnuts imply.
 
[quote name='dohdough']
it is proven fact that Jefferson raped Hemings, which produced offspring and she was not a slut like your dissenting wingnuts imply.[/QUOTE]

Did someone say she was a slut? Were they accepting and or saying that a possibility is fact? If so then they are twisted to say the least. I don't own any wingnuts and the only one I know is you. You can try to assign me to others and their beliefs but I have only said that it is NOT FACT.

You are doing great dude screaming racist and now throwing it out as fact that a Jefferson RAPED her as fact. You are too much.

edit: do creationists say it is a fact?? If so then they should be laughed out of any serious DEBATE. As should anyone saying That TJ fathered any children with Sally is fact. Or anyone saying that she was RAPED by a Jefferson as FACT.

This is me laughing YOU out of this debate :rofl:
 
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[quote name='YendelTrex']Did someone say she was a slut? Were they accepting a possibility as fact? If so then they are twisted to say the least. I don't own any wingnuts and the only one I know is you. You can try to assign me to others and their beliefs but I have only said that it is NOT FACT.

You are doing great dude screaming racist and now throwing it out as fact that a Jefferson RAPED her as fact. You are too much.

edit: do creationists say it is a fact?? If so then they should be laughed out of any serious DEBATE. As should anyone saying That TJ fathered any children with Sally is fact. Or anyone saying that she was RAPED by a Jefferson as FACT.[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing historiography isn't something your strong point either.

Calling something a fraud, hoax, lie, whatever, isn't the type of language used by fence-sitters on an issue. You've clearly outed yourself as having a heavy bias, so why hide your crazy behind the veneer of impartiality?

Creationists say that evolution is just a theory and that therefore not a fact despite literal mountains of evidence. Sound familiar?

edit: If you think that you'e totally pwning the hell out of me by simply replying to my posts without addressing all the points, does that mean that I'm pwning you as well?
 
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Okay DoDo you really are all over the place. This is not even close to a real scientific theory evolution as you are poorly trying to say that it is or equate it to be. Did you even read the info I posted in post 20?

Could it be called a theory b : an unproved assumption :conjecture:

yes it could be but equating this to a scientific theory of evolution is absurd and shows you have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest you do some reading so you can understand the differences between this and that and REAL scientific theory. I could easily say that you are like any creationists that say their opinion is proven fact but that really has no place here as I pointed out.

You have went to calling any voice that says it isn't fact racist and fringed wingnut while even those within the original study say it is not fact.Then you just flat-out called me a racist You said Martians and now creationism. You are using at the best very poor arguments to counter me saying it is NOT FACT.

I have no bias as I said I don't care one way or the other if it ENDS up being fact or not. If anyone here is bias it's you gong by all your posts on this thread.

You brought me here for what looks like an assumption on your part that I am some RACIST person looking to totally deny the POSSIBILITY. You see that is your problem and ongoing pattern making assumptions, prejudgment, and false accusations... etc etc etc.

I have PROVEN quickly and easily what I set out to prove and that is this is in no stretch of the imagination... FACT or PROVEN. It is a possibility and that is all.

Is it proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally?
My answer NO and I provided the proof of that. It is a possibility and that is all and possibility is not fact or proven or proven fact. So yes while my language to you may have seemed harsh I will say it again anyone who says it is fact, proven or proven fact falls into my words lie, hoax or fraud.
What is your answer and where is the PROOF that makes it proven fact?

[quote name='YendelTrex']As I said there is NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with the slave Sally Hemings.

I could post a hundred links to articles books etc and they all say the same thing. There is NO PROOF. Different sources and books argue accounts timelines etc etc. They also say and agree there is NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF.

Do I care if he did? No I don't. If he did fine and if he didn't fine. I do however care when someone puts something across as fact when it is not. This is one of those cases. I don't care if people want to discuss it and decide on their own as long as it is understood that THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF.

So there really is nothing more for me to say the proof is not there that TJ fathered children with her and if it is proven in the future cool but we are not in the future so now the PROOF IS NOT there.

edit: For me it is about that he alluded to it as a truth in the other thread and I said it is not. He has yet to PROVE that TJ did..why? because he can't. As I said a possibility sure but many things are possible that doesn't mean it is fact or cold hard truth. I thought him bringing up Thomas Jefferson, Hitler, and slavery in a response to an article about Zimmerman was inappropriate and I still do.

I am waiting for the proof..... Until then those that put it as fact or cold hard truth are IMO lying and it is fraud.[/QUOTE]

I am done here...
 
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Yendel, you keep talking about "fact". History is often about piecing together the available evidence to come up with the most reasonable assumptions, there are not many irrefutable facts beyond ruins and carbon-dated artifacts.

I appreciate a good debate but this was a trouncing. I'm glad you hung it up dude, your posts were just fucking embarrassing.
 
[quote name='YendelTrex']Okay DoDo you really are all over the place. This is not even close to a real scientific theory evolution as you are poorly trying to say that it is or equate it to be. Did you even read the info I posted in post 20? [/QUOTE]
Obviously, you missed my reference to historiography.

Could it be called a theory b : an unproved assumption :conjecture:
How cute. Quoting a dictionary.

yes it could be but equating this to a scientific theory of evolution is absurd and shows you have no idea what you are talking about. I suggest you do some reading so you can understand the differences between this and that and REAL scientific theory.
Again, it's called historiography. edit: Well, not so much historiography as historiography hits a more specific aspect of your argument, but more the scholarship of history in general.

You have went to calling any voice that says it isn't fact racist and fringed wingnut while even those within the original study say it is not fact.Then you just flat-out called me a racist You said Martians and now creationism. You are using at the best very poor arguments to counter me saying it is NOT FACT.
It's almost as if you'd rather pick on my examples than the actual argument. I'm making an epistemological argument to attack your framework. Jefferson-Hemings is just another example of your binary perspective and justification for unsound reasoning.

Btw, saying that the historians in the original studay saying that it isn't a fact is grossly mischaracterizing what they meant. Especially when they said that the most reasonable conclusion is that Jefferson was the father of all of Hemings children considering all the evidence.

I have no bias as I said I don't care one way or the other if it ENDS up being fact or not. If anyone here is bias it's you gong by all your posts on this thread.
Hahaha...yeah...no bias at all. Unlike how you describe the book as fraud, falsely attribute sentiment from the original researchers, talked about how you're laughing me out of the thread and tearing me up.

edit2: I also don't pretend like I'm a bastion of objectivity.

You brought me here for what looks like an assumption on your part that I am some RACIST person looking to totally deny the POSSIBILITY. You see that is your problem and ongoing pattern making assumptions, prejudgment, and false accusations... etc etc etc.
Tea kettle meet pot?

I have PROVEN quickly and easily what I set out to prove and that is this is in no stretch of the imagination... FACT or PROVEN. It is a possibility and that is all.

Is it proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally?
My answer NO and I provided the proof of that.
What is your answer and where is the PROOF that makes it proven fact?
Here's the thing homie...you know those words "fact" and "proof" that you keep throwing around? Let's examine them. Proof is really nothing more than evidence that can be quantifiable and/or qualitative. Take gravity for example. We can conduct experiments, calculate it's effects, see it's effects, and do all sorts of things that point to its existence, but we can't really see, touch, smell, feel, or in any make it tangible. How do we know it isn't a bunch of inter-dimensional trolls pushing down on us or holding our feet to the ground? There's no solid proof that they aren't, but it's accepted as fact that there's a force that we call gravity until there's more evidence that says otherwise.

Let's use another example: Dog-whistle racism and I guess coded language in general. Lee Atwater said it best.

[quote name='Lee Atwater']
Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry S. Dent, Sr. and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [the new Southern Strategy of Ronald Reagan] doesn't have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster.
Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?
Atwater: You start out in 1954 by saying, "N****r, n****r, n****r." By 1968 you can't say "n****r" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N****r, n****r."
[/quote]
Now the quote is pretty self-explanatory, but it follows the same reasoning as being able to point at evidence of the existence of racism in policy without explicitly saying it is racist. While it's certainly a possibility that racism isn't there, you can't deny all the evidence that affirms that it is. So, if we apply an epistemological framework to examine this, what do you think it will say?

I'm somewhat interested in your answer, again in a morbidly curious kind of way, but since you're done here, I guess maybe I should close this thread? Or are you unable to follow through with "being done here?" I'll leave the thread open for another 24 hours and see if my hypothesis is correct.
 
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[quote name='camoor']Yendel, you keep talking about "fact". History is often about piecing together the available evidence to come up with the most reasonable assumptions, there are not many irrefutable facts beyond ruins and carbon-dated artifacts.

I appreciate a good debate but this was a trouncing. I'm glad you hung it up dude, your posts were just fucking embarrassing.[/QUOTE]

It is at best an assumption and I also never said it is not a possibility NEVER.

There is no debate as DD wants there to be I have PROVEN my point to be TRUE. DD has NOT proved TJ and Sally children being TRUTH FACT. Anyone with a reasonable mind knows it is NOT FACT but a possibility. That is all I have said EVER. Even you said it "reasonable assumptions" those can be made on both sides of this case from the history and the inconclusive DNA testing. Again that is all I have said that anyone who puts it forth as truth or absolute or fact or as accurate history are wrong. Arguements can and are made on both sides because it is not accpeted as truth or factual but just a possibility.

[quote name='Access_Denied']In my opinion, I think that it definitely happened. BUT, I have to agree with YendelTrex. Proof is proof. And without proof, we're left with only assumptions. They may be damn good assumptions, but assumptions none the less.[/QUOTE]

So AS I have said over and over it is not fact nor should it be represented as such.

I HAVE PROVEN THIS.

I have not hung it up I refuse to play dd's ridiculous games and that is all.

I have not been trounced NOT AT ALL. I provided PROOF of my point that this (TJ AND SALLY CHILDREN) is not fact. Even your post camoor validates my point.

...............................................................................................................................................................................
edit:
[quote name='dohdough']That's part of it, but the broader implication was the white-washing of our country's history. It's also about historiography because rather than just accepting what we're taught as fact, we should be looking at history critically.[/QUOTE]

Yep don't just accept it as fact we should be looking at it critically. :rofl:

You said earlier but after this quoted post in response to the question I posed "Do you think it is proven fact that Thomas Jefferson fathered any children with Sally? " you accept it as fact. I proved it is not FACT and have offered the reasons and proof why. I am looking at it critically and most reasonable brains, respected historians and scientists say it is not fact as well.

[quote name='dohdough']
I accept it as fact until new evidence proves otherwise.
[/QUOTE]

I will not accept is as fact because as of right now IT ISN'T.

edit two:
[quote name='dohdough']
it is proven fact that Jefferson raped Hemings, which produced offspring and she was not a slut like your dissenting wingnuts imply.[/QUOTE]

You are pretty loose with what you WANT and purpose to be fact.
 
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The straight dope had a good write up about the issue. Jefferson was home during the preceding months before the birth of her children. He also freed her children and no others. Occams Razor.
 
LOLZ...looks like someone has poor impulse control. Why am I not surprised...

This thread was a nice little experiment, but like all things, it has to eventually end. I'd give someone the last word if it was going to be any different from what we've seen so far...too bad we all know it won't.
 
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