U.S. used chemical weapons on civilians

Wow, how about that. Turns out he pentagon was lying about not using WP as a weapon. Who would've guessed?

US Army Admits Use of White Phosphorus as Weapon
by Steven D
Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 02:48:58 PM PDT

(From the diaries. Let's see them deny this shit now -- kos)

That's right. Not from Al Jazheera, or Al Arabiya, but the US fucking Army, in their very own publication, from the (WARNING: pdf file) March edition of Field Artillery Magazine in an article entitled "The Fight for Fallujah":

"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out."


In other words the claim by the US Government that White Phosphorus was used only for illumination at Fallujah had been pre-emptively debunked by the Army. Indeed, the article goes on to make clear that soldiers would have liked to have saved more WP rounds to use for "lethal missions."

However, as Mark Kraft, an emailer to Eric Alter's blog, Altercation, points out today, the Field Artillery Magazine article fails to inform its audience that

. . . there is no way you can use white phosphorus like that without forming a deadly chemical cloud that kills everything within a tenth of a mile in all directions from where it hits. Obviously, the effect of such deadly clouds weren't just psychological in nature.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/9/164137/436
 
Quack:

There were SOME soldiers there but fair enough.

Im a liberal and a fan of japanese culture and I still say the A-Bombings were not examples of pure evil.

They WWII Japanese were insane, ever hear of the rape of Nanking?

The Japanese really did plan to fight to the last man, and refused to capitulate after the first bomb.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']There you go.

The whole concept of stronger condemnation really is just part of a moral scale.[/QUOTE]

And things don't exist on a moral scale? If you call me a jerk and I pull out a gun and shoot you, that's an extremely horrible thing to do. But who wouldn't agree it is worse if I shot you and then, pissed off that you were even born, decide to go and kill your family as well? Who wouldn't condemn the second example more? That's even how our criminal system works, since the second one can result in the death penalty but the first usually couldn't.

And, Msut, there is plenty of evidence to suggest the japanese were prepared, or preparing, to surrender. The americans did not want to wait, since it meant the soviets from possibly gaining a foothold on mainland japan.
 
>>Msut, there is plenty of evidence to suggest the japanese were prepared, or preparing, to surrender.

Then why didnt they?

The only evidence ive ever heard about was the emperor wanted to surrender, which didnt mean much since he was only a figurehead.
 
[quote name='Msut77']>>Msut, there is plenty of evidence to suggest the japanese were prepared, or preparing, to surrender.

Then why didnt they?

The only evidence ive ever heard about was the emperor wanted to surrender, which didnt mean much since he was only a figurehead.[/QUOTE]

Because the mentality of the japanese meant if took time, and was not going to be done 1, 2, 3. Japan had begun sending out some peace feelers before the first bomb, which were not responded to. They were beginning attempts to give up while saving face.

I don't have a real opinion on the first, even though morally I oppose it. The dropping of the second bomb was more a political move than anything else. The concern was keeping the soviets out of japan, which is why they wanted immediate surrender.
 
>>Japan had begun sending out some peace feelers before the first bomb, which were not responded to.

They refused the unconditional surrender, i.e. they wanted to keep a lot of the stolen territory.

My grandfather was in the Navy during WWII, he was designated as part of a skeleton crew whose job was more or less to get in a ship and go full steam into a minefield.

Since we are dealing in hypotheticals...

The Japanese homeguard were sharpening bamboo and who knows how many civilians would have went down if they were told to?
 
[quote name='Msut77']>>Japan had begun sending out some peace feelers before the first bomb, which were not responded to.

They refused the unconditional surrender, i.e. they wanted to keep a lot of the stolen territory.[/quote]

Yes, but the point was they were already looking into that path. I was not suggesting we should have agree to what they wanted, but that surrender was already becoming an option to them.


The Japanese homeguard were sharpening bamboo and who knows how many civilians would have went down if they were told to?
Click to expand...

But we did not allow attempts at peace to play themselves out. I don't if we would have been able to get them to surrender, it's possible since russia was preparing to attack the mainland. But I do believe that, if serious attempts were made, they would have surrendered after the first one.
 
[quote name='Msut77']The only evidence ive ever heard about was the emperor wanted to surrender, which didnt mean much since he was only a figurehead.[/QUOTE]
Untrue. At that time, Emperor Hirohito still had power over Japan. It wasn't until after the end of WWII that power was finally stripped from the imperial line and they became mere figureheads of Japan. Brush up on your Japanese history!
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']That's nice, especially since you failed to explain how it's worse than killing over 6 million jews, and 2-4 times that in overall civilians.[/QUOTE]
Oh, so just because the jews and european civilians died we had to top it off with an extra 300,000 people whose lives were worthless?

What are you trying to argue?
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Oh, so just because the jews and european civilians died we had to top it off with an extra 300,000 people whose lives were worthless?

What are you trying to argue?[/QUOTE]

It was suggested that we stooped to the same level as the germans and just as bad.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']It was suggested that we stooped to the same level as the germans and just as bad.[/QUOTE]


I agree with you that it was wrong, but that is quite the stretch. Besides the obvious numbers difference, we were at war with the Japanese, while Jews and Nazis/Swiss/Poles/Austrians/Czechs/Germans were not at war with each other, it was a slaughter. We were surprised attack by the Japanese while an ambassador was in the US saying that they would never attack so it would be hard to believe a truce at first. Jews never went after the group I mentioned above they just lived their normal lives. Almost every Jew killed was a civillian with nothing to do with the war at all, but were still killed while there were soldiers there. Just because somethings wrong does not equal it to a more heinous wrong. Running a stop light at 5 in the morning is different from running it during rush hour. I know you are just going to argue against this but this is how I feel.
 
>>Untrue. At that time, Emperor Hirohito still had power over Japan.

De Jure is not the the same as De Facto.

He was locked away, the real power was in the hands of the army and the reactionaries who controlled it.

>>they became mere figureheads of Japan.

They were figureheads during the Shogun periods, until the Meiji restoration.

By the 30's and WWII the emperor was a figurehead again.

Real power being in the hands of pseudo-fascists.

>>Brush up on your Japanese history!

Its fine thanks, I can point you to a few books if you ever feel the need to patch up holes in your learning.
 
[quote name='Msut77']>>Untrue. At that time, Emperor Hirohito still had power over Japan.

De Jure is not the the same as De Facto.

He was locked away, the real power was in the hands of the army and the reactionaries who controlled it.

>>they became mere figureheads of Japan.

They were figureheads during the Shogun periods, until the Meiji restoration.

By the 30's and WWII the emperor was a figurehead again.

Real power being in the hands of pseudo-fascists.

>>Brush up on your Japanese history!

Its fine thanks, I can point you to a few books if you ever feel the need to patch up holes in your learning.[/QUOTE]


I can tell someone saw The Last Samurai
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']I agree with you that it was wrong, but that is quite the stretch. Besides the obvious numbers difference, we were at war with the Japanese, while Jews and Nazis/Swiss/Poles/Austrians/Czechs/Germans were not at war with each other, it was a slaughter. We were surprised attack by the Japanese while an ambassador was in the US saying that they would never attack so it would be hard to believe a truce at first. Jews never went after the group I mentioned above they just lived their normal lives. Almost every Jew killed was a civillian with nothing to do with the war at all, but were still killed while there were soldiers there. Just because somethings wrong does not equal it to a more heinous wrong. Running a stop light at 5 in the morning is different from running it during rush hour. I know you are just going to argue against this but this is how I feel.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think that? That's what I was arguing. Zion suggested that we stooped to their level, since msut said we didn't stoop to their level in ww2, so why should we now.
 
[quote name='Msut77']>>I can tell someone saw The Last Samurai

I knew about all this well before that movie came out.[/QUOTE]


it was a joke chill
 
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