UK- Plan to segregate black boys rejected by government

[alonzomourning23]

This was suggested by the uk's Commission for Racial Equality. Also, just to clarify, this is specifically targeted at boys, since black females have higher test scores than white males link. They also suggested that black fathers should be denied access to their sons if they don't attend parent meetings. I think I'd lose all respect for the u.k. if these policies, or anything resembling them, actually go into effect.

Black boys may have to be separated from their classmates to help improve their school performance, says the Commission for Racial Equality.
The group's head, Trevor Phillips, also suggested black fathers should be denied access to their sons if they refuse to attend parents' evenings.

But teachers have warned the ideas could fall foul of anti-racism laws.

Last year 36% of Black Caribbean pupils in England got five or more C-grades at GCSE. The national average is 52%.

'Embrace the unpalatable'

Mr Phillips said a lack of self-esteem and positive role models for black boys also compounded the problem, as well as an attitude that being clever is not cool.

"If the only way to break through the wall of attitude that surrounds black boys is to teach them separately in some classes, then we should be ready for that," he said.

It may be necessary to "embrace some new if unpalatable ideas both at home and at school" to avoid the mistakes of the past 40 years, Mr Phillips said.

"A tough new strategy would compel black fathers to be responsible fathers.

"If they can't be bothered to turn up for parents' evening, should they expect automatic access to their sons?"

He also called for more male black teachers, tempting them with extra cash if necessary.

Mr Phillips' comments were not aimed at black girls - GCSE results in England show that "black African" girls are scoring higher grades than "white British" boys.

'Counter-productive'

Martin Ward, deputy general secretary of the Secondary Heads Association, told The Times: "Clearly there is scope for schools to help all children who are doing badly.

"But to single out black children for special treatment could be counter-productive and even illegal."

Chris Keates, general secretary of the National Association of Schoolmasters and Union of Women Teachers, also rejected segregation.

"This has been an area of concern for people in education for a long time and I understand (Mr Phillips') motivation and welcome his interest.

"But I think with things like this that it needs to be left to the professional judgement of schools."

'Demonised for failure'

Simon Woolley, co-ordinator of Operation Black Vote, said the issue was "complex" - citing social factors such as poor housing and fractured family life.

"I would prefer to focus on these things first before we start blaming the victims - and demonise them for their failure.

"However, it is true that the bling-bling and gangster rap culture does not help."

In filming for BBC's Inside Out programme, Mr Phillips returned to his old school in Wood Green, north London.

He described himself as "one of the few lucky ones" to escape the fate of most of his generation.

Mr Phillips, who received an OBE in 1999, has made controversial statements in the past.

Last October he wrote an article which seemed to suggest he believed policemen in general are racist - an allegation he denied.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4323979.stm

 

[elprincipe]

Even if such a practice did increase test scores, and I don't recall any evidence to point to that, it would be far outweighed by the enormous social damage they'd be doing.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

If there were credible and clear evidence that seperated boys, girls, blacks, whites, asians, Indians academically and that any or all groups would do better in certain subjects segregated I don't see why you wouldn't sperate them. You're just trying to give people the best possible chance at success. Despite all the feelgoodism we're not all created equal.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']If there were credible and clear evidence that seperated boys, girls, blacks, whites, asians, Indians academically and that any or all groups would do better in certain subjects segregated I don't see why you wouldn't sperate them. You're just trying to give people the best possible chance at success. Despite all the feelgoodism we're not all created equal.[/quote]

In a way we're not, as in one individual can be better than another individual at certain things. But you can't argue that one whole gender of a particular race is inferior or superior in a particular field. Though what about the succesful black males? Or the failing white males? This does nothing but put everything into a neat package. And besides, throwing half of a race into classes, just because their overall race tends to do poorly, is not beneficial. It would be segregating half of a race into what is essentially the "dumb class", that cannot be good. I remember one particular study which countered the male/female math stereotype. It showed that when given a test and told men performed better overal, the results showed men did perform better. But, when told that the test did not discriminate based on sex, the results were equal. There was also a similar study done with whites and blacks, which produced the same type of results.

Also, it is 100% racist to deny black fathers who don't attend parents conferences the right to see their children, while also doing absolutely nothing with white or asian fathers who do the same. It could also be incredibly damaging to children, since children aren't very selective as in "my dad doesn't pay much attention to me, so I'll stop loving him".

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

I'm mostly saying this in reference to some of those studies that say when girls are put in their own math and/or science classes where they don't feel "intimidated" by boys their test scores advance or surpass co-ed classes. I obviously don't think races or genders are incapable or less likely to be able to grasp source materials. If the military is good for showing you one thing, that's it.

However you have to ask yourself, reasonably, how it is that Nobel Prize winners skew the way they do. That is Western and male. Is there a predisposition? Is it sexist? Who knows, however the matter is up for debate.

Meanwhile the flipside of this ability thing is the equality in outcome argument. Women earn 77 cents on the dollar compared to men. Great, how many men take 5 years or so off from their career to have children, how many re-enter the work force after 5-10 years of child raising? Every place I've ever earned a living went out of its way and bent over backwards to promote women and hire and promote minorities. There must be something on the candidates end that's lacking in these cases but we're not allowed to say that.

What did they typically lack? Well for one, representation. For every 250 resumes I scanned for Morgan Stanley about 15-20% were women. Of those that came in for interviews, went through testing/evaluation and were offered a job that 15%-20% went down to about 5%. For those that were minorities? Applicants 5% came in went through the process and were offered a job 1% of resumes received or less.

That being said in several positions I've held there is a definite lack of minority interest despite intense recruitment to get them. Now is that a lack of education? Is it a lack of ability or ability to grasp what's needed to for a job? Is it a lack of interest in a group? Who knows.

However when I read articles like this I don't immediately ever think it's racism at play.

 

[alonzomourning23]

However you have to ask yourself, reasonably, how it is that Nobel Prize winners skew the way they do. That is Western and male. Is there a predisposition? Is it sexist? Who knows, however the matter is up for debate.

Why do I need to ask myself why an award created by white, male, westerners, and based in the west, is dominated by white males westerners?

Meanwhile the flipside of this ability thing is the equality in outcome argument. Women earn 77 cents on the dollar compared to men. Great, how many men take 5 years or so off from their career to have children, how many re-enter the work force after 5-10 years of child raising? Every place I've ever earned a living went out of its way and bent over backwards to promote women and hire and promote minorities. There must be something on the candidates end that's lacking in these cases but we're not allowed to say that.

What did they typically lack? Well for one, representation. For every 250 resumes I scanned for Morgan Stanley about 15-20% were women. Of those that came in for interviews, went through testing/evaluation and were offered a job that 15%-20% went down to about 5%. For those that were minorities? Applicants 5% came in went through the process and were offered a job 1% of resumes received or less.

The second paragraph is totally irrelevant, representation has nothing to do with salaries. If a group makes up 10 or 50% of the population, it shouldn't affect their salary. You have to ask yourself why women, with the same education, same experience, seniority etc. still, on average, make less than men. Why do men, when they work in traditional "women's" jobs (i.e. operator), get promoted much quicker than women?

Also, the test scores aren't about intimidation, it's about subtle and not so subtle ideas held by the teachers and the students.

 

[alonzomourning23]

Teaching underachieving black boys in separate classes for some subjects has been rejected by the government.
Trevor Phillips, head of the Commission for Racial Equality, suggested they might benefit from such a move, which had been tested in the United States.

But the Department for Education and Skills said such separation would have "negative effects" and risked "stigmatising" black pupils.

Head teachers had questioned the legality of racially-divided lessons.

In England, only 27% of Black Caribbean boys got five or more good GCSEs last year, considerably below the national average for boys of 46.8%.

Among girls, 44% of Black Caribbean girls achieved five or more good GCSEs, against a national average for girls of 57%. Black Caribbean pupils are also three times more likely than white pupils to be excluded.

'Wall of attitude'

After visiting a scheme in the US, Mr Phillips suggested some black boys were hampered by a lack of self-esteem and positive role models, as well as an attitude that being clever was not cool.

"If the only way to break through the wall of attitude that surrounds black boys is to teach them separately in some classes, then we should be ready for that," he said.

But the Department for Education and Skills said research showed segregation was not the best way forward and could "have negative effects in terms of teacher and pupil expectations".

"There are schools where black boys are achieving at the highest level. These schools don't segregate pupils in the way suggested," said a spokesperson.

'Extra help'

The Secondary Heads Association warned any segregation based on skin colour could create "great difficulty" and may be illegal.

SHA deputy general secretary Martin Ward told BBC News: "Saying to a pupil 'right, I want you to go to room five instead of room one because you need extra help', that's one thing.

"Saying 'I want you to go to room five instead of room one because you're black' potentially could create a great deal of difficulty."

But Shahid Malik, chairman of the Labour Party's ethnic minority forum and a former CRE commissioner, said "many African-Caribbean people would feel it was a debate whose time had come".

Black teachers

Speaking on BBC's Inside Out programme Mr Phillips had also suggested black fathers not living with their sons should be denied access to them if they refused to attend parents' evenings.

And he called for more male black teachers, tempting them with extra cash if necessary.

His comments were not aimed at black girls - GCSE results in England show that "black African" girls are scoring higher grades than "white British" boys.

The CRE said that Mr Phillips had not called for all black boys to be segregated in schools.

It said he was "not sure" how the US measures would work in the UK, but that he felt "we should look at the scheme to see if we can learn anything from it".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/4326007.stm

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']

However you have to ask yourself, reasonably, how it is that Nobel Prize winners skew the way they do. That is Western and male. Is there a predisposition? Is it sexist? Who knows, however the matter is up for debate.

Why do I need to ask myself why an award created by white, male, westerners, and based in the west, is dominated by white males westerners? [/quote]

It's more likely due to the fact that white male Westerners are much more highly educated and live in societies that are on the cutting edge of science compared to black African females, for example, who may have never gone to school, live in a dirt poor environment and obviously never had a chance to succeed in science in such a way.