There have been times when I've wanted to join a group and give my time, only to find out that the whole thing is based around spreading "the word". That the real goal isn't so much to help those in need, but to convert them to whatever given religion the group follows. It's always church building or some such thing, and despite wanting to help people, i just can't be involved in that. There is a school of thought which says that altruism doesn't exist, that everything we do, we do with the expectation of getting something in return. In this case this is what I see, that these groups want to help with the expectation of gaining new followers to their religion. That isn't altruism.
Why do aid groups always seem to have a religious bent?
- Thread starter Clak
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You answered your own question. A lot of religious groups use charity work as a way to spread their word and do their missionary work of gaining new followers.
There are non-religious charities out there, but you have to dig around to find them sometimes.
There are non-religious charities out there, but you have to dig around to find them sometimes.
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Well then they need to give up the lie and just say what they're really doing, trying to get new converts. What kills me the most is that the very thing these people are trying to spread could be doing as much harm as hunger or disease in some places. Think about how Catholics are against birth control, that's a great message to spread in some places, don't use condoms, spread disease and have more babies!
Maybe "heatherns" just dont care about other people. *shrugs*
And in Catholic's defense, their response would be that condoms arent needed if you are only having sex for procreation in a committed monogamous relationship. BTW: It's not impossible to avoid having babies w/o using exterior birth control. Withdrawal and the 'rhythm' method can be quite effective. (Similar to using 'fertility charts' in reverse).
Also, I'd venture that many of the people in these organizations sincerely do want to do good for other people. They also feel that their religion is a good thing for them and would be good for others as well. There is no "lie" there that they need to "give up". For example, a Christian working at a soup kitchen could very well believe that feeding a hungry person clam chowder and a word from Jesus are both good for that person. You're free to disagree, but there is no deception there.
BTW: If you cant find a non-religious place to volunteer at, *you* just arent trying hard enough. I'm *sure* your local public elementary/middle/high school could use some mentors/tutors. There's also United Way, Purple Heart, American Legion, Big Brothers / Big Sisters, NAACP, United Negro College Fund, Jerry's Kids, Susan G Komen Foundation, Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, Ronald McDonald House, etc. That's 10 off the top of my head and I could list more.
I get it, you dont like religion. Big whoop. You dont have to deal with it if you dont want to. There are plenty of non-religious options available to you. That's one of the things that makes this country great. There is room for all types.
And in Catholic's defense, their response would be that condoms arent needed if you are only having sex for procreation in a committed monogamous relationship. BTW: It's not impossible to avoid having babies w/o using exterior birth control. Withdrawal and the 'rhythm' method can be quite effective. (Similar to using 'fertility charts' in reverse).
Also, I'd venture that many of the people in these organizations sincerely do want to do good for other people. They also feel that their religion is a good thing for them and would be good for others as well. There is no "lie" there that they need to "give up". For example, a Christian working at a soup kitchen could very well believe that feeding a hungry person clam chowder and a word from Jesus are both good for that person. You're free to disagree, but there is no deception there.
BTW: If you cant find a non-religious place to volunteer at, *you* just arent trying hard enough. I'm *sure* your local public elementary/middle/high school could use some mentors/tutors. There's also United Way, Purple Heart, American Legion, Big Brothers / Big Sisters, NAACP, United Negro College Fund, Jerry's Kids, Susan G Komen Foundation, Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, Ronald McDonald House, etc. That's 10 off the top of my head and I could list more.
I get it, you dont like religion. Big whoop. You dont have to deal with it if you dont want to. There are plenty of non-religious options available to you. That's one of the things that makes this country great. There is room for all types.
Trancendental
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I think anyone who is being objective has to admit that for all their faults, most mainstream religions have also done alot of good charitable work as well.
Plus if someone is doling out free soup, I say they are welcome to advertise whatever they want.
Plus if someone is doling out free soup, I say they are welcome to advertise whatever they want.
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[quote name='camoor']I think anyone who is being objective has to admit that for all their faults, most mainstream religions have also done alot of good charitable work as well.
Plus if someone is doling out free soup, I say they are welcome to advertise whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
Strangely enough these same people eagerly solicit the local population for donations for said soup yet neglect to mention the extra mandatory spoonful of religion that comes with it.
So far I've found Animal Rescue/shelter charities to be religion free and pretty good at using their funds appropriately.
Plus if someone is doling out free soup, I say they are welcome to advertise whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
Strangely enough these same people eagerly solicit the local population for donations for said soup yet neglect to mention the extra mandatory spoonful of religion that comes with it.
So far I've found Animal Rescue/shelter charities to be religion free and pretty good at using their funds appropriately.
[quote name='hostyl1']Maybe "heatherns" just dont care about other people. *shrugs*
And in Catholic's defense, their response would be that condoms arent needed if you are only having sex for procreation in a committed monogamous relationship. BTW: It's not impossible to avoid having babies w/o using exterior birth control. Withdrawal and the 'rhythm' method can be quite effective. (Similar to using 'fertility charts' in reverse).
Also, I'd venture that many of the people in these organizations sincerely do want to do good for other people. They also feel that their religion is a good thing for them and would be good for others as well. There is no "lie" there that they need to "give up". For example, a Christian working at a soup kitchen could very well believe that feeding a hungry person clam chowder and a word from Jesus are both good for that person. You're free to disagree, but there is no deception there.
BTW: If you cant find a non-religious place to volunteer at, *you* just arent trying hard enough. I'm *sure* your local public elementary/middle/high school could use some mentors/tutors. There's also United Way, Purple Heart, American Legion, Big Brothers / Big Sisters, NAACP, United Negro College Fund, Jerry's Kids, Susan G Komen Foundation, Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, Ronald McDonald House, etc. That's 10 off the top of my head and I could list more.
I get it, you dont like religion. Big whoop. You dont have to deal with it if you dont want to. There are plenty of non-religious options available to you. That's one of the things that makes this country great. There is room for all types.[/QUOTE]And what of the spread of AIDS and other diseases? Do you have any idea, for example, how badly many African countries are infected with AIDS? And as far a procreation goes, that's much of the problem in and of itself, so I honestly don't give two shits how Catholics feel about it. I'm sure they have good intentions, but to borrow a proverb, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
And I never said I couldn't find a charity to give to or volunteer at that didn't have a religious bent. It's just that every time I see one advertised or mentioned by somebody, when I check it out, sure enough it's based around some religion. It's not unlike the way that AA doesn't advertise that it's a religious organization, but once you look into you realize it is. Why be so secretive about it?
I remember volunteering to help a group feed the homeless once, only to have the head guy (a minister it turns out) start a prayer halfway through it. I mean it was nice these folks had a warm meal, but then I felt like I was helping to promote a message I didn't agree with.
And in Catholic's defense, their response would be that condoms arent needed if you are only having sex for procreation in a committed monogamous relationship. BTW: It's not impossible to avoid having babies w/o using exterior birth control. Withdrawal and the 'rhythm' method can be quite effective. (Similar to using 'fertility charts' in reverse).
Also, I'd venture that many of the people in these organizations sincerely do want to do good for other people. They also feel that their religion is a good thing for them and would be good for others as well. There is no "lie" there that they need to "give up". For example, a Christian working at a soup kitchen could very well believe that feeding a hungry person clam chowder and a word from Jesus are both good for that person. You're free to disagree, but there is no deception there.
BTW: If you cant find a non-religious place to volunteer at, *you* just arent trying hard enough. I'm *sure* your local public elementary/middle/high school could use some mentors/tutors. There's also United Way, Purple Heart, American Legion, Big Brothers / Big Sisters, NAACP, United Negro College Fund, Jerry's Kids, Susan G Komen Foundation, Juvenile Diabetes Foundation, Ronald McDonald House, etc. That's 10 off the top of my head and I could list more.
I get it, you dont like religion. Big whoop. You dont have to deal with it if you dont want to. There are plenty of non-religious options available to you. That's one of the things that makes this country great. There is room for all types.[/QUOTE]And what of the spread of AIDS and other diseases? Do you have any idea, for example, how badly many African countries are infected with AIDS? And as far a procreation goes, that's much of the problem in and of itself, so I honestly don't give two shits how Catholics feel about it. I'm sure they have good intentions, but to borrow a proverb, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
And I never said I couldn't find a charity to give to or volunteer at that didn't have a religious bent. It's just that every time I see one advertised or mentioned by somebody, when I check it out, sure enough it's based around some religion. It's not unlike the way that AA doesn't advertise that it's a religious organization, but once you look into you realize it is. Why be so secretive about it?
I remember volunteering to help a group feed the homeless once, only to have the head guy (a minister it turns out) start a prayer halfway through it. I mean it was nice these folks had a warm meal, but then I felt like I was helping to promote a message I didn't agree with.
So what is your point? Religious charities are brainwashing people to join their religion? Come on man, if you have spent any time working with any reputable charities, they do not force people to believe what they believe, they simply introduce them to it. Most religions have a belief system that helping others is not only a good thing, but it is their duty, which is why you see so many religions in the charity field, not because they are targeting the vulnerable as you would love to believe.
Grow up.
Noone
ing cares about the chip on your shoulder you are carrying for religion.
Grow up.
Noone
ing cares about the chip on your shoulder you are carrying for religion.[quote name='Clak']And what of the spread of AIDS and other diseases? Do you have any idea, for example, how badly many African countries are infected with AIDS? And as far a procreation goes, that's much of the problem in and of itself, so I honestly don't give two shits how Catholics feel about it. I'm sure they have good intentions, but to borrow a proverb, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. [/QUOTE]
Stoping?
If you refrain from having sex, you wont get AIDS through sex. You might get it from being born to a mother who had the disease, or through a blood transfusion but a condom isnt going to help in that situation either. Catholics have an alternative plan for slowing/preventing the spread of AIDS. You just dont like it.
Now you just sound dumb. I listed prevously 10 different charitible organizations that have no religious affiliation and at least five of them advertise *HEAVILY*. So I guess you just never hear any of these ads? I guess you've never watched football at the very least cause there's a United Way "Play 60" commercial seemingly every break.
So you've run into some religious organizations trying to do good things for people. I guess in your mind that's the worst thing in the world. They should just go back to preaching "Hellfire and Brimstone"! (/end sarcasm).
If it's that important to you, you could simply ask "Do you have any religious affiliation?" I dont doubt for a second that they'd tell you. I also dont doubt the people fed had much of a problem with the prayer cause if they didnt believe, it'd just be words, no different than reading part of the Gettysburg Address.
Stop
ing?If you refrain from having sex, you wont get AIDS through sex. You might get it from being born to a mother who had the disease, or through a blood transfusion but a condom isnt going to help in that situation either. Catholics have an alternative plan for slowing/preventing the spread of AIDS. You just dont like it.
Now you just sound dumb. I listed prevously 10 different charitible organizations that have no religious affiliation and at least five of them advertise *HEAVILY*. So I guess you just never hear any of these ads? I guess you've never watched football at the very least cause there's a United Way "Play 60" commercial seemingly every break.
So you've run into some religious organizations trying to do good things for people. I guess in your mind that's the worst thing in the world. They should just go back to preaching "Hellfire and Brimstone"! (/end sarcasm).
If it's that important to you, you could simply ask "Do you have any religious affiliation?" I dont doubt for a second that they'd tell you. I also dont doubt the people fed had much of a problem with the prayer cause if they didnt believe, it'd just be words, no different than reading part of the Gettysburg Address.
perdition(troy
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[quote name='Knoell']So what is your point? Religious charities are brainwashing people to join their religion? Come on man, if you have spent any time working with any reputable charities, they do not force people to believe what they believe, they simply introduce them to it. Most religions have a belief system that helping others is not only a good thing, but it is their duty, which is why you see so many religions in the charity field, not because they are targeting the vulnerable as you would love to believe.
Grow up.
Nooneing cares about the chip on your shoulder you are carrying for religion.[/QUOTE]
Seconded.
Grow up.
Noone
ing cares about the chip on your shoulder you are carrying for religion.[/QUOTE]Seconded.
[quote name='perdition(troy']Seconded.[/QUOTE]
Not going to try and reason with KNoell since....well he is beyond reason obviously. But ill ask you....you cant see how its wrong to say "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system"? I dont know if you are religious or not, but I imagine you would feel differently if this was something you were strongly against. Its one thing to help someone then after the act has been committed to ask someone if they are interested in learning about your church...but that is not how this works too often. Religion often(not always)handles charity in the same way that business does, they do a kind act but make sure to slap their brand all over that bitch to bring people in the door. They make sure that there is a large speach making it clear they are only being helped because of the great generosity of JesusCo.
My mother in law goes to a church I really hate but I at least appreciate the Charity work they do because they do it the right way. They do relay for life or other events frequently and may put up a banner for their church or have some flyers on a table somewhere, but there is never anyone actively walking around selling the church.
Not going to try and reason with KNoell since....well he is beyond reason obviously. But ill ask you....you cant see how its wrong to say "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system"? I dont know if you are religious or not, but I imagine you would feel differently if this was something you were strongly against. Its one thing to help someone then after the act has been committed to ask someone if they are interested in learning about your church...but that is not how this works too often. Religion often(not always)handles charity in the same way that business does, they do a kind act but make sure to slap their brand all over that bitch to bring people in the door. They make sure that there is a large speach making it clear they are only being helped because of the great generosity of JesusCo.
My mother in law goes to a church I really hate but I at least appreciate the Charity work they do because they do it the right way. They do relay for life or other events frequently and may put up a banner for their church or have some flyers on a table somewhere, but there is never anyone actively walking around selling the church.
op-
you speak to a larger issue that many charities may not be what they seem and have a side agenda or mission they are undertaking. Sometimes this is out in the open, sometimes not, and sometimes it dovetails with what the charity stands for, sometimes not.
It can certainly be difficult to get a handle, and even if you find a solid charity, it's possible that the local chapter or individuals you deal directly with are going to have their own faults, prejudices or agendas.
As Diogenes proved long ago, everyone is an asshole.
Still, the best means is research, asking questions and seeking knowledge. There are many, many great charities, and if it ever gets overwhelming, a site like http://www.charitywatch.org/toprated.html is a great resource.
you speak to a larger issue that many charities may not be what they seem and have a side agenda or mission they are undertaking. Sometimes this is out in the open, sometimes not, and sometimes it dovetails with what the charity stands for, sometimes not.
It can certainly be difficult to get a handle, and even if you find a solid charity, it's possible that the local chapter or individuals you deal directly with are going to have their own faults, prejudices or agendas.
As Diogenes proved long ago, everyone is an asshole.
Still, the best means is research, asking questions and seeking knowledge. There are many, many great charities, and if it ever gets overwhelming, a site like http://www.charitywatch.org/toprated.html is a great resource.
perdition(troy
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[quote name='MSI Magus']Not going to try and reason with KNoell since....well he is beyond reason obviously. But ill ask you....you cant see how its wrong to say "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system"? I dont know if you are religious or not, but I imagine you would feel differently if this was something you were strongly against. Its one thing to help someone then after the act has been committed to ask someone if they are interested in learning about your church...but that is not how this works too often. Religion often(not always)handles charity in the same way that business does, they do a kind act but make sure to slap their brand all over that bitch to bring people in the door. They make sure that there is a large speach making it clear they are only being helped because of the great generosity of JesusCo.
My mother in law goes to a church I really hate but I at least appreciate the Charity work they do because they do it the right way. They do relay for life or other events frequently and may put up a banner for their church or have some flyers on a table somewhere, but there is never anyone actively walking around selling the church.[/QUOTE]
If you read knoell's post, he is talking about the same exact thing you like about your mother-in-law's church. The banner or flyers are their way of "introducing" you to their church. Most charity work I've seen done by churches or have been a part of that have some church sponsorship aren't in your face about it. Most just go about their business and if you ask someone why they are doing something, their answer is usually along the lines of I'm from so and so church and we are reaching out to the community, etc.
I've never really heard of a religious organization saying "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system", but if they did do that, of course it would be wrong. It goes completely against what their Bible teaches them. I guess that makes it easy to seperate the good from the bad.
My mother in law goes to a church I really hate but I at least appreciate the Charity work they do because they do it the right way. They do relay for life or other events frequently and may put up a banner for their church or have some flyers on a table somewhere, but there is never anyone actively walking around selling the church.[/QUOTE]
If you read knoell's post, he is talking about the same exact thing you like about your mother-in-law's church. The banner or flyers are their way of "introducing" you to their church. Most charity work I've seen done by churches or have been a part of that have some church sponsorship aren't in your face about it. Most just go about their business and if you ask someone why they are doing something, their answer is usually along the lines of I'm from so and so church and we are reaching out to the community, etc.
I've never really heard of a religious organization saying "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system", but if they did do that, of course it would be wrong. It goes completely against what their Bible teaches them. I guess that makes it easy to seperate the good from the bad.
[quote name='perdition(troy']If you read knoell's post, he is talking about the same exact thing you like about your mother-in-law's church. The banner or flyers are their way of "introducing" you to their church. Most charity work I've seen done by churches or have been a part of that have some church sponsorship aren't in your face about it. Most just go about their business and if you ask someone why they are doing something, their answer is usually along the lines of I'm from so and so church and we are reaching out to the community, etc.
I've never really heard of a religious organization saying "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system", but if they did do that, of course it would be wrong. It goes completely against what their Bible teaches them. I guess that makes it easy to seperate the good from the bad.[/QUOTE]
See where as a lot of the stuff I have went to/seen or even participated in they have said prayers, read versus from the bible or even gave sermons before hand.
I've never really heard of a religious organization saying "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system", but if they did do that, of course it would be wrong. It goes completely against what their Bible teaches them. I guess that makes it easy to seperate the good from the bad.[/QUOTE]
See where as a lot of the stuff I have went to/seen or even participated in they have said prayers, read versus from the bible or even gave sermons before hand.
perdition(troy
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Ya, I wouldn't be a big fan of that. Though I think it's perfectly in their right to say a prayer before a meal or something of that nature.
[quote name='Knoell']So what is your point? Religious charities are brainwashing people to join their religion? Come on man, if you have spent any time working with any reputable charities, they do not force people to believe what they believe, they simply introduce them to it. Most religions have a belief system that helping others is not only a good thing, but it is their duty, which is why you see so many religions in the charity field, not because they are targeting the vulnerable as you would love to believe.
Grow up.
Nooneing cares about the chip on your shoulder you are carrying for religion.[/QUOTE]Wait, you're telling me to grow up? That's hilarious coming from your dumb ass.
Grow up.
Noone
ing cares about the chip on your shoulder you are carrying for religion.[/QUOTE]Wait, you're telling me to grow up? That's hilarious coming from your dumb ass.[quote name='hostyl1']Stop ing?
If you refrain from having sex, you wont get AIDS through sex. You might get it from being born to a mother who had the disease, or through a blood transfusion but a condom isnt going to help in that situation either. Catholics have an alternative plan for slowing/preventing the spread of AIDS. You just dont like it.
Now you just sound dumb. I listed prevously 10 different charitible organizations that have no religious affiliation and at least five of them advertise *HEAVILY*. So I guess you just never hear any of these ads? I guess you've never watched football at the very least cause there's a United Way "Play 60" commercial seemingly every break.
So you've run into some religious organizations trying to do good things for people. I guess in your mind that's the worst thing in the world. They should just go back to preaching "Hellfire and Brimstone"! (/end sarcasm).
If it's that important to you, you could simply ask "Do you have any religious affiliation?" I dont doubt for a second that they'd tell you. I also dont doubt the people fed had much of a problem with the prayer cause if they didnt believe, it'd just be words, no different than reading part of the Gettysburg Address.[/QUOTE]You, as Knoell, are missing the point completely. You don't like what I'm saying, then don't post in the thread, friend. I've got a legitimate problem with the way many of these organizations do business and are trying to explain that, but all you here is "Whiny atheist being whiny". If that's all you care to hear, than don't even read past this post.
ing?If you refrain from having sex, you wont get AIDS through sex. You might get it from being born to a mother who had the disease, or through a blood transfusion but a condom isnt going to help in that situation either. Catholics have an alternative plan for slowing/preventing the spread of AIDS. You just dont like it.
Now you just sound dumb. I listed prevously 10 different charitible organizations that have no religious affiliation and at least five of them advertise *HEAVILY*. So I guess you just never hear any of these ads? I guess you've never watched football at the very least cause there's a United Way "Play 60" commercial seemingly every break.
So you've run into some religious organizations trying to do good things for people. I guess in your mind that's the worst thing in the world. They should just go back to preaching "Hellfire and Brimstone"! (/end sarcasm).
If it's that important to you, you could simply ask "Do you have any religious affiliation?" I dont doubt for a second that they'd tell you. I also dont doubt the people fed had much of a problem with the prayer cause if they didnt believe, it'd just be words, no different than reading part of the Gettysburg Address.[/QUOTE]You, as Knoell, are missing the point completely. You don't like what I'm saying, then don't post in the thread, friend. I've got a legitimate problem with the way many of these organizations do business and are trying to explain that, but all you here is "Whiny atheist being whiny". If that's all you care to hear, than don't even read past this post.
[quote name='camoor']I think anyone who is being objective has to admit that for all their faults, most mainstream religions have also done alot of good charitable work as well.
Plus if someone is doling out free soup, I say they are welcome to advertise whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
To be clear, I have no problems with religious groups doing charity work.
I just wish it was easier to find out what charities (besides the major ones) are religious and which aren't as I won't donate to a religious one personally. For the most part it's easy to find that info for the national/international organizations, but can be tougher with state and local charities.
Charities should be required to a have a website with a fact sheet that lists any religious affiliation, political motivations, or other agendas they have so people know more precisely who they're giving their money too.
Plus if someone is doling out free soup, I say they are welcome to advertise whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
To be clear, I have no problems with religious groups doing charity work.
I just wish it was easier to find out what charities (besides the major ones) are religious and which aren't as I won't donate to a religious one personally. For the most part it's easy to find that info for the national/international organizations, but can be tougher with state and local charities.
Charities should be required to a have a website with a fact sheet that lists any religious affiliation, political motivations, or other agendas they have so people know more precisely who they're giving their money too.
[quote name='MSI Magus']Not going to try and reason with KNoell since....well he is beyond reason obviously. But ill ask you....you cant see how its wrong to say "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system"? I dont know if you are religious or not, but I imagine you would feel differently if this was something you were strongly against. Its one thing to help someone then after the act has been committed to ask someone if they are interested in learning about your church...but that is not how this works too often. Religion often(not always)handles charity in the same way that business does, they do a kind act but make sure to slap their brand all over that bitch to bring people in the door. They make sure that there is a large speach making it clear they are only being helped because of the great generosity of JesusCo.
My mother in law goes to a church I really hate but I at least appreciate the Charity work they do because they do it the right way. They do relay for life or other events frequently and may put up a banner for their church or have some flyers on a table somewhere, but there is never anyone actively walking around selling the church.[/QUOTE]
You'll love this story. A few years ago a local megachurch helped fix up a public elementary school here, they bought them new computers, fixed up the building some, did a lot. However, predictably, they also put up signage all over the front of the school to make sure everyone knew who was resposnible. So you've got a church advertising on the grounds of a public school, yeah nothing wrong there.
My mother in law goes to a church I really hate but I at least appreciate the Charity work they do because they do it the right way. They do relay for life or other events frequently and may put up a banner for their church or have some flyers on a table somewhere, but there is never anyone actively walking around selling the church.[/QUOTE]
You'll love this story. A few years ago a local megachurch helped fix up a public elementary school here, they bought them new computers, fixed up the building some, did a lot. However, predictably, they also put up signage all over the front of the school to make sure everyone knew who was resposnible. So you've got a church advertising on the grounds of a public school, yeah nothing wrong there.
[quote name='Clak']You'll love this story. A few years ago a local megachurch helped fix up a public elementary school here, they bought them new computers, fixed up the building some, did a lot. However, predictably, they also put up signage all over the front of the school to make sure everyone knew who was resposnible. So you've got a church advertising on the grounds of a public school, yeah nothing wrong there.[/QUOTE]
Question: If the options were for the school to go without or to get the stuff and have the signing "all over" (I'd be interested in seeing some photos of this), would you prefer the school to simply go without?
[quote name='Clak']You don't like what I'm saying, then don't post in the thread, friend.[/QUOTE]
"If you don't agree with me, then I don't want to hear what you have to say."
Question: If the options were for the school to go without or to get the stuff and have the signing "all over" (I'd be interested in seeing some photos of this), would you prefer the school to simply go without?
[quote name='Clak']You don't like what I'm saying, then don't post in the thread, friend.[/QUOTE]
"If you don't agree with me, then I don't want to hear what you have to say."
[quote name='UncleBob']Question: If the options were for the school to go without or to get the stuff and have the signing "all over" (I'd be interested in seeing some photos of this), would you prefer the school to simply go without?
"If you don't agree with me, then I don't want to hear what you have to say."[/QUOTE]
They had signs staked in the ground running along the front of the school wiht the Church's logo on them, along with one large large wooden sign near the entrance. It was years ago so of course I don't have pictures.
And...
"If you post something I don't like, I'm going to take and twist those words"
See bob, i you were right about that I wouldn't have taken the time to click "show this post" and read what you had to say. Because for whatevered up reason I still want to see what you have to say.
"If you don't agree with me, then I don't want to hear what you have to say."[/QUOTE]
They had signs staked in the ground running along the front of the school wiht the Church's logo on them, along with one large large wooden sign near the entrance. It was years ago so of course I don't have pictures.
And...
"If you post something I don't like, I'm going to take and twist those words"
See bob, i you were right about that I wouldn't have taken the time to click "show this post" and read what you had to say. Because for whatever
ed up reason I still want to see what you have to say.perdition(troy
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Why don't you just post the name of the school and church and let us check to see if there are any news articles or pictures of the school with all the crazy advertising on its website?
[quote name='Clak']They had signs staked in the ground running along the front of the school wiht the Church's logo on them, along with one large large wooden sign near the entrance. It was years ago so of course I don't have pictures.[/QUOTE]
So - if you had to choose between the minor inconvenience of a few signs for - what - a couple of months? A year? Vs the school, the children and the entire community benefiting from all the good that was done for this one school... which would you pick?
Also, I'm curious - aside from the religious aspect, do you feel that this is very different from, say, Pepsi donating the money to renovate a school stadium and having their logo put on the score board? What about the the government taking taxpayer funds, using it for pet projects and plastering the area with $20 Million in campaign signs (again, paid for with taxpayer money)?
Is it *just* the religious aspect of it that bothers you?
So - if you had to choose between the minor inconvenience of a few signs for - what - a couple of months? A year? Vs the school, the children and the entire community benefiting from all the good that was done for this one school... which would you pick?
Also, I'm curious - aside from the religious aspect, do you feel that this is very different from, say, Pepsi donating the money to renovate a school stadium and having their logo put on the score board? What about the the government taking taxpayer funds, using it for pet projects and plastering the area with $20 Million in campaign signs (again, paid for with taxpayer money)?
Is it *just* the religious aspect of it that bothers you?
The religious aspect at a school is an issue because of separation of church and state.
We legally (as per current precedent) can't have anything promoting a specific religion, much less a specific church, on public school property.
I have no issue with a church having their logo etc. on signs around where they've done charity work on private property.
So it's not just that it's religion, it's the context of where the signs where put.
In general, I hate charities that pop up signs like that anywhere, regardless of religion or otherwise. If they're doing it purely to help people, they shouldn't care about publicity and recognition. Though I get the need of advertising to raise funds for non-profit charities etc.
As for those government signs along road repairs and other taxpayer funded projects, are those required by law? I thought I'd read somewhere that they had to have signage showing projects were funded by tax dollars--though I may just be thinking of a specific state law.
We legally (as per current precedent) can't have anything promoting a specific religion, much less a specific church, on public school property.
I have no issue with a church having their logo etc. on signs around where they've done charity work on private property.
So it's not just that it's religion, it's the context of where the signs where put.
In general, I hate charities that pop up signs like that anywhere, regardless of religion or otherwise. If they're doing it purely to help people, they shouldn't care about publicity and recognition. Though I get the need of advertising to raise funds for non-profit charities etc.
As for those government signs along road repairs and other taxpayer funded projects, are those required by law? I thought I'd read somewhere that they had to have signage showing projects were funded by tax dollars--though I may just be thinking of a specific state law.
Trancendental
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[quote name='perdition(troy']I've never really heard of a religious organization saying "I will help you, but first let me teach you about my belief system", but if they did do that, of course it would be wrong. It goes completely against what their Bible teaches them. I guess that makes it easy to seperate the good from the bad.[/QUOTE]
Really? I see it all the time, but I hardly think it's wrong. Maybe a bit tacky, but then again it's really none of my business. It's their soup, they can dole it out in any manner they please.
Really? I see it all the time, but I hardly think it's wrong. Maybe a bit tacky, but then again it's really none of my business. It's their soup, they can dole it out in any manner they please.
Trancendental
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[quote name='Clak']You'll love this story. A few years ago a local megachurch helped fix up a public elementary school here, they bought them new computers, fixed up the building some, did a lot. However, predictably, they also put up signage all over the front of the school to make sure everyone knew who was resposnible. So you've got a church advertising on the grounds of a public school, yeah nothing wrong there.[/QUOTE]
Well let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater - it's very nice of them to donate those materials and I'm sure the kids appreciate it too.
Personally I would find the signage a little tacky. Then again if the school didn't want the signage then the school shouldn't have accepted the free stuff.
Well let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater - it's very nice of them to donate those materials and I'm sure the kids appreciate it too.
Personally I would find the signage a little tacky. Then again if the school didn't want the signage then the school shouldn't have accepted the free stuff.
[quote name='dmaul1114']The religious aspect at a school is an issue because of separation of church and state.[/quote]
And that's entirely understandable - which is why I asked if it was simply because of the religious affiliation.
I suppose that could depend on the content of the signs (which, of course, we can't judge because we can't see them). If the signs *only* had the church's name on them, then, yeah, I'd agree, they'd need to be removed. But what if the signs said something like "Renovations paid for by Church X"? Would that not be acceptable? It's not promoting that church, per-say. Merely pointing out the fact that the church paid for stuff.
For some charities, that's a large part of it. If the general population can't connect CharityX with Charitable-Action-Y, then, when you see CharityX fundraising, you'll just assume they're a scam or they do stuff that doesn't impact your personal life.
*If* that's a law, it a stupid one. "We have to spend additional taxpayer money to let the citizens know we're spending taxpayer money to fix this road. As opposed to all the roads that are fixed with fairy dust."
Regardless, you have to wonder why such a law would even be considered - if not for the same reasons a private charity would want to post signs acknowledging the work they do.
And that's entirely understandable - which is why I asked if it was simply because of the religious affiliation.
I suppose that could depend on the content of the signs (which, of course, we can't judge because we can't see them). If the signs *only* had the church's name on them, then, yeah, I'd agree, they'd need to be removed. But what if the signs said something like "Renovations paid for by Church X"? Would that not be acceptable? It's not promoting that church, per-say. Merely pointing out the fact that the church paid for stuff.
For some charities, that's a large part of it. If the general population can't connect CharityX with Charitable-Action-Y, then, when you see CharityX fundraising, you'll just assume they're a scam or they do stuff that doesn't impact your personal life.
*If* that's a law, it a stupid one. "We have to spend additional taxpayer money to let the citizens know we're spending taxpayer money to fix this road. As opposed to all the roads that are fixed with fairy dust."
Regardless, you have to wonder why such a law would even be considered - if not for the same reasons a private charity would want to post signs acknowledging the work they do.
I have no idea if they told the school those signs would go up before they did all of that. It's completely possible, and considering how inappropriate it is it's likely, they didn't warn them about the signs beforehand. I can't beleive they weren't immediately taken down considering it's promoting a church on school property. Forgot they also held a little prayer session in the school gym at some point. I know this because two of my cousins were students there at the time and my aunt was telling me this stuff.
And of course it's nice they did all of that, but it isn't like it was an altruistic act with them expecting nothing in return.
And of course it's nice they did all of that, but it isn't like it was an altruistic act with them expecting nothing in return.
Trancendental
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[quote name='Clak']And of course it's nice they did all of that, but it isn't like it was an altruistic act with them expecting nothing in return.[/QUOTE]
There isn't much charitable giving that would hold up to that standard. I'm all for pointing out the foibles of organized religion, but you're kind of grasping at straws here.
There isn't much charitable giving that would hold up to that standard. I'm all for pointing out the foibles of organized religion, but you're kind of grasping at straws here.
Humans are inherently self interested. There is very little true altruism in the world.
Even at the basic level of volunteerism, I'd garner that many/most do it because it makes them feel better about themselves than out of any true, innate desire to help others.
Then you have the people running non-profits but pulling down a nice, middle class salary from doing so etc. and/or doing it to promote some agenda be it religious or otherwise.
Even at the basic level of volunteerism, I'd garner that many/most do it because it makes them feel better about themselves than out of any true, innate desire to help others.
Then you have the people running non-profits but pulling down a nice, middle class salary from doing so etc. and/or doing it to promote some agenda be it religious or otherwise.
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[quote name='camoor']There isn't much charitable giving that would hold up to that standard. I'm all for pointing out the foibles of organized religion, but you're kind of grasping at straws here.[/QUOTE]
I'm calling out BS where I see it. You think it's ok for a group of people to act like they're doing such great charitable work, when it's little more than an outreach program? It's ok for them to smile and pat themselves on the back for that? I wouldn't care as much if they were more honest about it, but they have to maintain the illusion that they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's no different than some company giving money to a charity, and the company making sure everyone knows they gave to the charity.
It's deceptive at the very least. I wouldn't put up with deceptive business practices, I don't see how this is any different.
I'm calling out BS where I see it. You think it's ok for a group of people to act like they're doing such great charitable work, when it's little more than an outreach program? It's ok for them to smile and pat themselves on the back for that? I wouldn't care as much if they were more honest about it, but they have to maintain the illusion that they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's no different than some company giving money to a charity, and the company making sure everyone knows they gave to the charity.
It's deceptive at the very least. I wouldn't put up with deceptive business practices, I don't see how this is any different.
[quote name='nasum']Your local Animal Humane Society has never asked a rabbit/dog/cat/turtle/horse/etc... to pray[/QUOTE]
And thats why instead of giving money to charity this year we instead just rescued a third dog(and one with needs)as well as cutting them a check for more then the adoption fee. Love animal shelters Well and doctors without borders and childs play or two other yearlies.
And thats why instead of giving money to charity this year we instead just rescued a third dog(and one with needs)as well as cutting them a check for more then the adoption fee. Love animal shelters
Well and doctors without borders and childs play or two other yearlies.
Trancendental
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[quote name='dmaul1114']To be clear, I have no problems with religious groups doing charity work.
I just wish it was easier to find out what charities (besides the major ones) are religious and which aren't as I won't donate to a religious one personally. For the most part it's easy to find that info for the national/international organizations, but can be tougher with state and local charities.
Charities should be required to a have a website with a fact sheet that lists any religious affiliation, political motivations, or other agendas they have so people know more precisely who they're giving their money too.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's a great idea.
[quote name='Clak']I'm calling out BS where I see it. You think it's ok for a group of people to act like they're doing such great charitable work, when it's little more than an outreach program? It's ok for them to smile and pat themselves on the back for that? I wouldn't care as much if they were more honest about it, but they have to maintain the illusion that they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's no different than some company giving money to a charity, and the company making sure everyone knows they gave to the charity.
It's deceptive at the very least. I wouldn't put up with deceptive business practices, I don't see how this is any different.[/QUOTE]
No, this is deception.
Was the megachurch tacky? Yes (being a megachurch, that's pretty much in their DNA). Deceptive? No, not really.
I just wish it was easier to find out what charities (besides the major ones) are religious and which aren't as I won't donate to a religious one personally. For the most part it's easy to find that info for the national/international organizations, but can be tougher with state and local charities.
Charities should be required to a have a website with a fact sheet that lists any religious affiliation, political motivations, or other agendas they have so people know more precisely who they're giving their money too.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's a great idea.
[quote name='Clak']I'm calling out BS where I see it. You think it's ok for a group of people to act like they're doing such great charitable work, when it's little more than an outreach program? It's ok for them to smile and pat themselves on the back for that? I wouldn't care as much if they were more honest about it, but they have to maintain the illusion that they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's no different than some company giving money to a charity, and the company making sure everyone knows they gave to the charity.
It's deceptive at the very least. I wouldn't put up with deceptive business practices, I don't see how this is any different.[/QUOTE]
No, this is deception.
Was the megachurch tacky? Yes (being a megachurch, that's pretty much in their DNA). Deceptive? No, not really.
cindersphere
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This thread is hilarious.
[quote name='camoor']Yeah that's a great idea.
No, this is deception.
Was the megachurch tacky? Yes (being a megachurch, that's pretty much in their DNA). Deceptive? No, not really.[/QUOTE]
Actually that's fraud, as said in the article. If you're doing one thing with the intention of accomplishing another, ulterior goal, that's deceiving people. If they just said "We're doing this with the hope of attracting new people to our church and/or religion" then I'd shut up about it.
edit- And why the hell am I arguing the meaning of a word...
No, this is deception.
Was the megachurch tacky? Yes (being a megachurch, that's pretty much in their DNA). Deceptive? No, not really.[/QUOTE]
Actually that's fraud, as said in the article. If you're doing one thing with the intention of accomplishing another, ulterior goal, that's deceiving people. If they just said "We're doing this with the hope of attracting new people to our church and/or religion" then I'd shut up about it.
edit- And why the hell am I arguing the meaning of a word...
[quote name='Clak']Actually that's fraud, as said in the article. If you're doing one thing with the intention of accomplishing another, ulterior goal, that's deceiving people. If they just said "We're doing this with the hope of attracting new people to our church and/or religion" then I'd shut up about it.[/QUOTE]
I don't even need/want that kind of disclosure.
Just the aforementioned requirement to have a page on their website with details about the organization that's required by law to list any religious, political or other ideological motivations so donors can easily make informed decisions about where to give.
The burden should be on charities to provide such information, not on potential donors to have to go digging for it.
I don't even need/want that kind of disclosure.
Just the aforementioned requirement to have a page on their website with details about the organization that's required by law to list any religious, political or other ideological motivations so donors can easily make informed decisions about where to give.
The burden should be on charities to provide such information, not on potential donors to have to go digging for it.
eldergamer
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So, do you think the people being helped by the charity are too simpleminded/naieve and just blindly accept the religions as part of the assitance?
They could be selling pyramid schemes or time shares for all I care as long as they're actually helping to feed and clothe people who need it.
They could be selling pyramid schemes or time shares for all I care as long as they're actually helping to feed and clothe people who need it.
I think people who need help will take whatever help someone will give them, that's what's so wrong about it. You have people who aren't in a position to refuse anyhting, and these groups know that. And do understand I'm not talking exclusively about charities that serve the U.S., that's why I said aid group. I'm also talking about people who visit some of the poorest areas of the world, only to, in my opinion, do as much harm as good. If you're helping feed people but also telling them that birth control is bad, you're no more helping them than anyone else. Now they have food, but thanks to you they won't use condoms to help prevent the spread of incurable diseases. But hey, pulling out helps stop disease apparently.
[quote name='eldergamer']So, do you think the people being helped by the charity are too simpleminded/naieve and just blindly accept the religions as part of the assitance?
They could be selling pyramid schemes or time shares for all I care as long as they're actually helping to feed and clothe people who need it.[/QUOTE]
For me it's more just that I want to make sure I'm not giving money to an organization with an agenda I disagree with, rather than any real opposition to such groups doing charity work.
They could be selling pyramid schemes or time shares for all I care as long as they're actually helping to feed and clothe people who need it.[/QUOTE]
For me it's more just that I want to make sure I'm not giving money to an organization with an agenda I disagree with, rather than any real opposition to such groups doing charity work.
[quote name='Clak']I'm calling out BS where I see it. You think it's ok for a group of people to act like they're doing such great charitable work, when it's little more than an outreach program? It's ok for them to smile and pat themselves on the back for that? I wouldn't care as much if they were more honest about it, but they have to maintain the illusion that they're doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's no different than some company giving money to a charity, and the company making sure everyone knows they gave to the charity.
It's deceptive at the very least. I wouldn't put up with deceptive business practices, I don't see how this is any different.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so who are these organizations that you say are only doing "an outreach program"? You seem to be suggesting that some organizations are hiding their religious "motives", but you've only cited a church that clearly identified itself as a church (and that identification is the source of your 'contempt'). And AA, which, while they do use 'prayers' in their 12 steps, including the Lord's Prayer, 1) clearly state such on their website and 2) clearly on their website disclaim any affiliation "with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution".
So basically you've complained about groups having a hidden religious intent, but havent shown any example of where the intent was "hidden". Moreover, you complained that aid groups "always seem to have a religious bent" when there have been many examples of aid groups that have no such slant.
And if you gathered from this thread that withdrawl has anything to do with disease prevention, I think you need help with reading comprehension. My mother works with a charity for Adult reading, we'll even let you skip the prayer.
It's deceptive at the very least. I wouldn't put up with deceptive business practices, I don't see how this is any different.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so who are these organizations that you say are only doing "an outreach program"? You seem to be suggesting that some organizations are hiding their religious "motives", but you've only cited a church that clearly identified itself as a church (and that identification is the source of your 'contempt'). And AA, which, while they do use 'prayers' in their 12 steps, including the Lord's Prayer, 1) clearly state such on their website and 2) clearly on their website disclaim any affiliation "with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution".
So basically you've complained about groups having a hidden religious intent, but havent shown any example of where the intent was "hidden". Moreover, you complained that aid groups "always seem to have a religious bent" when there have been many examples of aid groups that have no such slant.
And if you gathered from this thread that withdrawl has anything to do with disease prevention, I think you need help with reading comprehension. My mother works with a charity for Adult reading, we'll even let you skip the prayer.
[quote name='dmaul1114']I don't even need/want that kind of disclosure.
Just the aforementioned requirement to have a page on their website with details about the organization that's required by law to list any religious, political or other ideological motivations so donors can easily make informed decisions about where to give.
The burden should be on charities to provide such information, not on potential donors to have to go digging for it.[/QUOTE]
Of course couldn't the same be said for the charities that have executives making 6-7 figure salaries? Shouldnt they have to dictate what % of donations go toward actually helping people instead of overpaying executives that dont really do anything?
Just the aforementioned requirement to have a page on their website with details about the organization that's required by law to list any religious, political or other ideological motivations so donors can easily make informed decisions about where to give.
The burden should be on charities to provide such information, not on potential donors to have to go digging for it.[/QUOTE]
Of course couldn't the same be said for the charities that have executives making 6-7 figure salaries? Shouldnt they have to dictate what % of donations go toward actually helping people instead of overpaying executives that dont really do anything?
eldergamer
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Your issue seems to be more with religion. You don't like it, think you're too good for it and those who believe in it are stupid. Right?
[quote name='Afflicted']Of course couldn't the same be said for the charities that have executives making 6-7 figure salaries? Shouldnt they have to dictate what % of donations go toward actually helping people instead of overpaying executives that dont really do anything?[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. That should definitely be required to be on the fact sheet on their websites as well.
It should cover all that kind of stuff. Any religious/political/other ideological backing of the organization, info about % of contributions that go to aid after salary and other overhead costs etc.
The point of requiring such an info page is to make sure donors can easily get a very clear picture of what the organization is, what it's goals are and where their money goes.
Again, the burden should be on the organizations to make that information readily available, and not on the people donating money to have to dig up on their own.
Absolutely. That should definitely be required to be on the fact sheet on their websites as well.
It should cover all that kind of stuff. Any religious/political/other ideological backing of the organization, info about % of contributions that go to aid after salary and other overhead costs etc.
The point of requiring such an info page is to make sure donors can easily get a very clear picture of what the organization is, what it's goals are and where their money goes.
Again, the burden should be on the organizations to make that information readily available, and not on the people donating money to have to dig up on their own.
bread's done