you do know about Wal-Mart, don't you?

RBM

RBM

CAGiversary!
I hesitated over mentioning this, but given that deals from Wal-Mart are making a (slightly) more regular appearance on this site, as well as another thread regarding the affiliated website's service, I wanted to ask the question in this thread's subject line to you guys.

I'm not going to post any links, but if you have a spare minute, try running a Google search on Wal-Mart with a keyword like "union," "wages," or even just "prices." A few common themes quickly become apparent. :)

Know that I am not a bleeding heart Liberal, nor an opponent of large-scale businesses. When Best Buy's sprouted up like mushrooms after a rainstorm and mom & pop game/electronic stores went belly-up, I started shopping at BB, just like everybody else. Ditto for Blockbusters, Sam's Club, etc. But regardless of whether you continue to shop at Wal-Mart (and I can say right now that I will still shop there myself,) maybe a few minutes' worth of reading will at least make you a better educated consumer. And, you'll understand why those TV ads with the smiley-face and bursting-with-good-cheer sales staff have cropped up all over the networks. At least you'll know who you're doing business with. :whistle2:$
 
Point? It's been discussed many times about Wal-mart and if they are good or bad. Both sides represent good arguements and need not be discussed again.
 
You also say you shop at Sam's Club. You know that Walmart and Sam's Club are headed by the same people, right?
 
[quote name='Supernothing']Point? It's been discussed many times about Wal-mart and if they are good or bad. Both sides represent good arguements and need not be discussed again.[/quote]

Ah, my mistake, then. I didn't spot such an exchange when searching for "Wal-Mart" among the past threads.

[quote name='WildWop']You also say you shop at Sam's Club. You know that Walmart and Sam's Club are headed by the same people, right? [/quote]

The plot thickens! :)
 
I enjoy shopping at wal-mart simply because its not a union shop. It amazes me we seem to think the socialist infrigmenet on our economy (unions) does good for us.
 
Some unions completely destroy any hope of quality work in a short timeframe.

For instance, there have been two escalators at Newark Penn [train station in NJ] being refurbished since January. Five months for two escalators is absurd. It's not like they are building a rocket-powered jet car for me to get to work without using a train, or something.

I-80 in PA will always be under construction somewhere along its length. Four years at Penn State, not a single trip was without some form of construction.

Boo to Union work production, but huzzah to job security. Wait, those two things clash, don't they? Oh well.
 
Yeah, It's just horrible what unions do... that ensuring safer working conditions, those jerks, and when they try to pry alittle bit more money out of their employers so that their kids can go to college too, or get healthcare. Who do these people think they are?
It's easy to hate unions, until you or a loved one is in a position to be protected by them. They improve the quality of living for all workers who are involved with them. What could be more American, then being able to make a better life for yourself?

I'm not going to tell you where to shop or how to live your life, that's not my place. My place today was to try to educate some of the younger members of this community to reject the public opinion about things and do some research on your own to form your own opinions.
http://www.aflcio.org/aboutunions/joinunions/whyjoin/
 
I'm afraid you guys have latched onto the word Union in lieu of the bigger picture. While Union-squashing is definitely a part of the picture, it's only about a third of the picture..but since it would appear that this story has already been mentioned here before (Supernothing's post, above) I guess it's not worth re-hashing.

[edit : come to think of it, would you mind linking the thread you had in mind, Supernothing? I'm curious to read what was said that I missed.]

[edit #2 : Bingo! Good one, Basketcase, that's the second slice of the story. I just brought up this topic because I hadn't found it in earlier threads and wasn't sure if anyone else was aware of it. Moving into an area, pricing their products at a loss in the short term in order to drive neighboring stores out of business, and then raising prices once local business is assured...in addition to Union-squashing to help keep their prices low...that's 2/3rds of the story.]
 
So what is the whole point of this thread? Big deal, numerous stores have unions. Walmarts business ideals are quite ingenious. They hunt down a low price, subtract a few dollars from the item. This sumtimes brings the price below what they pay for the item so in essence they are losing money but arent because it drives other businesses to close down, and they then jack the prices back up. Its extremely smart IMO.
 
Unions are BS for smaller companies. If your a large coporation such as Ford or GM. Yeah union all the way. Smaller companies don't need them. All the union cares about from the smaller companies are the 20-30$ fees they get each month, meanwhile they will work their asses off for the larger ones. Retail doesn't need unions, there's too much of a turnaround, it would do no good. I worked for Kroger when I was in highschool, union job, bagging groceries. What was the point of the union? None. They took my money for 2 years and that's it.
 
[quote name='RBM']I'm afraid you guys have latched onto the word Union in lieu of the bigger picture. While Union-squashing is definitely a part of the picture, it's only about a third of the picture..but since it would appear that this story has already been mentioned here before (Supernothing's post, above) I guess it's not worth re-hashing.

[edit : come to think of it, would you mind linking the thread you had in mind, Supernothing? I'm curious to read what was said that I missed.][/quote]

No the bigger picture is you suggested we should "educate" ourselves about Wal-Mart. And you more than implied that because they weren't a union shop it was a mistake to shop there.

The last time I checked I am free to shop anywhere I desire union shop or not. Frankly, I resent the implication that because I am not buying from a union shop I am doing something wrong.

Really down with unions. Down with telling me where to shop.

CTL
 
CTL, if you were trying to get a sigh out of me, well done, man.

Yes, I did start this thread to see if others here who shop there were aware of some of the issues regarding them. And yes, that would include the hope that people who weren't might want to learn more about it...and lastly, yes I did include Union as one of the three keywords I suggested. It wasn't the only word (which is why I suggested that people were getting hung up on this one aspect of the story,) however, and I said upfront that I shop there myself. I am not trying to tell people they shouldn't give Wal-Mart their business. Lookit that, you're making me re-type everything I said in the very first post.
 
No one has to work in a union either...you don't have to do anything you don't want to...don't shop at wal-mart...I don't care.

Grow your own food, make your own clothes, build your own cars...whatever...you'd probably get into trouble for not using unionized labor...

get a grip people!
 
I don't think RBM is trying to p!ss anyone off -- I think he has just recently become aware of some issues around Walfart that gives him concern.

Frankly, it is a concern we should all have.

I shop Walmart, occasionally, and I still hate the store and the company. They are well known for their historically low wages -- and that is the way their board likes it, as it gives them more return for their investment. More money -- they could care less about the local economies -- if they did care, they would pay a decent wage and give people 40 hour work weeks instead of keeping most of their staff part-time to avoid giving them any benes.

We won't even get into what Walmart does to local mom and pop stores (Walmart = Conan the Barbarian).

This is not a union thing -- it is an ethical biz thing, and Walmart has some questionable practices, some of which are under federal investigation.

On the flip side, did you know that investment firms are piling blame on Costco for paying their people too much? It was recently in the press (specifically NPR's Marketplace) that the investment community thinks that Costco's excessive compensation packages to its workers (not executives) is a bad decision, and is not good for their stock price. D@mn shame when a company tries to spread the wealth and has to take a lot of crap for it.
 
Hey, Don's Sword, I love the kodama for the avatar, man. You...wouldn't happen to know where to get one as a toy, would you? The very first time I watched Mononoke Hime, I was sure those spring-fitted, rattling toys would be all over the bookstores soon thereafter...but no luck. I'd really like to have one mounted on my car dashboard. :)

I had not heard about the Costco story. What a world!
 
Actually, regarding unions, many companies won't hire you if you're not union [or don't join the union.]
Without getting into the good/bad Walmart issue, I will say I wholeheartedly recommend the OP's main point--educate yourself about the products you buy and the companies from whom you buy them, and make a decision as to whether or not you want to spend money there. This goes for all stores, not just WalMart. I'm of the opinion that there is very little that is 'pure good' or 'pure evil' in this world, and Walmart is not one of those things.
 
[quote name='RBM']I love the kodama for the avatar, man. You...wouldn't happen to know where to get one as a toy, would you?[/quote]

Don't try Walmart... LOL!

eBay is the only place I know of.

I wish someone would kill lock and kill this stupid thread...
 
[quote name='Advocatus']It's easy to hate unions, until you or a loved one is in a position to be protected by them. They improve the quality of living for all workers who are involved with them. What could be more American, then being able to make a better life for yourself[/quote]

It's nice to think that there are guarantees in life. The only thing guaranteed by any union is that they will take dues out of your check every month. You are secondary to the survival of the union and the union infrastructure. They only care about you as a means to an end, that being the extortion of $$ from a 'greedy' corporation who has the audacity to give you a job in the first place so you can try to feed your family. The whole 'union mentality' is that someone owes you a job, owes you a decent wage, and owes you some level of quallity of life.
If you don't like a workplace, go somewhere else. I'm not saying unions shouldn't exist, they have every right to bargain as a collective body and associate as such. I just can't get over the 'you owe me' mentallity.

We would all be a lot better of if we could manage to think for ourselves, be educated, and not demand 'protection' from joe strongarm union man. What could be more American? Making a better life for yourself, and not expecting it to be made FOR you by a union or a corporation.
 
I am not wasting my time reading this whole thread. Unions do a lot of damage and collect tons of money from their "members"

Let me ask a serious question. Why in the world is the union trying so hard to get into Walmart? Is it because they are SOOO concerned about the american way of life and want tp support everyone and live under a big happy tree?

Hell no its because Walmart IS the largest employer and they want their dues.

This is the biggest bunch of Union crap in the world. So some guy who sits on his ass but has been there longer gets to continue to do that at a higher pay... why? Because hes been there longer than the new guy, who goes to work and slaves away gets crap pay. Whoo go union man go.
 
The whole 'union mentality' is that someone owes you a job, owes you a decent wage, and owes you some level of quallity of life.
If you don't like a workplace, go somewhere else. I'm not saying unions shouldn't exist, they have every right to bargain as a collective body and associate as such. I just can't get over the 'you owe me' mentallity.

We would all be a lot better of if we could manage to think for ourselves, be educated, and not demand 'protection' from joe strongarm union man. What could be more American? Making a better life for yourself, and not expecting it to be made FOR you by a union or a corporation.
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Okay, I'll bite. Why do you assume people who are in unions, aren't educated and cannot think for themselves? If Joe Strongarm is the ONLY way to get pay equal to what your worth, and safe working conditions, what's wrong with using Joe Strongarm to get them. You fail to understand that it's the companies who do not care about their workers (there maybe a few exceptions). Most companies would rather pay their workers pennies then fair compensation.

It's not right to expect fair compensation? Why shouldn't a job pay you enough so you can feed your family and care for them? Not everyone can own a company.
"If you don't like a workplace, go somewhere else."
If corporations are allowed to pay employees what they want, there would be no where else to go, to get a decent living. Why shouldn't people who devote 8-10 hours of their day receive compensation... would it be better if everyone worked 18 hours a day just to make a living? That's called a sweatshop.
The American standard of living is so good because of the work of unions. If you disagree look at the countries that don't have unions, and see what their workers earn and their standard of living (caveat being ignore the countries where governments regulate wages).
 
So some guy who sits on his ass but has been there longer gets to continue to do that at a higher pay... why? Because hes been there longer than the new guy, who goes to work and slaves away gets crap pay.
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Exactly. Ask a union official how they feel about merit based pay raises. You 'll ge the 'unfairness' speech and how joe fat-ass has dedicated his 20 years to the company and they now owe him a living, or a retirement. As if he wasn't compensated for his time for the last 20 years.

Don't get me wrong, some companies are real bastards about not doling out benefits and retirement even though they were contractually promised. The business world is replete with stories of the mismanaged retirement funds and outright theft. I'm just saying Unions aren't the saviors or protectors they claim to be. Unions just want to steal money from the companies AND the workers.
 
[quote name='Snake2715']I am not wasting my time reading this whole thread. Unions do a lot of damage and collect tons of money from their "members"

Let me ask a serious question. Why in the world is the union trying so hard to get into Walmart? Is it because they are SOOO concerned about the american way of life and want tp support everyone and live under a big happy tree?

Hell no its because Walmart IS the largest employer and they want their dues.

This is the biggest bunch of Union crap in the world. So some guy who sits on his ass but has been there longer gets to continue to do that at a higher pay... why? Because hes been there longer than the new guy, who goes to work and slaves away gets crap pay. Whoo go union man go.[/quote]

I need to know. Do you know anyone who works for a union? There is no such thing as "the union" as you mention above. You make it sound like every union is one and the same. A union at Wal-Mart would be made up of only employees of Wal-Mart. The purpose would be to allow them to negotiate as a whole. Without a union Wal-Mart can unilaterally enforce any company policies they want. If they want to cut everyone's healthcare benefits, they can. The only options an employee would have is to quit. With a union the employees band together to negotiate a better working situation for themselves. Strength in numbers is a huge bump in negotiating power. And as for your comment about the guy who has been there longer getting paid more than the new guy with the same job. Most companies are like this, even without a union. By being there longer you supposedly gain experience and are paid more because of it. Unions aren't perfect, but they are beneficial to employees of larger companies. My father has been in a union for paperworkers since I was born. Becuase of this, I have heard some of the crappy things a large corporation tries to pull on their employees. Oh, and people still get fired even if they are in a union. There are slackers just like any job who get away with doing less, but if an employee is not doing his or her job, they will not be working there for long. Just like any other company.
 
Sorry, the union would be the territory of the AFCW. he american food and commercial workers union. The teamsters would get the shipping, though.

Without a union Wal-Mart can unilaterally enforce any company policies they want. If they want to cut everyone's healthcare benefits, they can. The only options an employee would have is to quit.
Click to expand...

So quit. No one can stop you from quitting. You are in control that way and if everyone decides that WalMart is a shitty place to work, then they will go out of business. case closed. Ya don't need a union for that one. It's called a 'job market' for a reason, and quitting in large numbers has the same effect and keeps the job at a true market value, less suceptable to being farmed out overseas only to have the union bitch and moan that companies are 'unfairly' exporting 'their' jobs. The jobs don't belong to you, they belong to the company so they should be able to enforce any policies they want. There used to be a time when people were grateful for a job instead of feeling like they were getting screwed simply because they chose to work somewhere and aren't making the same salary as the CEO.

and yes, I've worked for a unionized company. Now I get to negociate my own terms, and I don't have to fork over any money to do it.
 
So you are saying that someone who has worked at the same place for 20 years and likes their job should just quit instead of forming a group of coworkers to fight for their rights?
 
Bmulligan said:
So quit. No one can stop you from quitting. You are in control that way and if everyone decides that WalMart is a shitty place to work, then they will go out of business. case closed.
Oh that was good for a chuckle...
You seem to miss that people need to feed their families, and that their families take precident. Most people don't have the freedom to just quit a job because it's a shitty place to work. People aren't going to just walk off the job in groups... because people need to eat. If you have a union who ensures that everyone will walk together, then it works and it's called a strike. In the end you get a compromise.

You seem to have a rather unreal view of the workplace, and what people have to do to get by.
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It's not Wal-Mart's anti-union efforts which make it a vendor to be especially aware of. That's relatively commonplace (and to a certain degree) a healthy aspect of the system. It's the other things *in combination* with the union-busting that makes it significant....the end result of which can effect a lot more people than just Wal-Mart employees.

[edit : wow...the server is really acting up. :error: ]

[edit #2: good Lord this is like talking into a sonic vacuum. You guys simply can not see past the issue of the unions. This thread was not about bitching about a chain's anti-union attitude. Rather, it was a mention of the (general) business practices Wal-Mart engages in. Personally, I discount links which someone posts when they're emotionally invested in a topic and want to sway you to their way of thinking. Therefore, I suggested a few keywords for a Google search. Unfortunately, almost everyone opted to just open a few cans of ready-made, tired, re-hashed arguments for and against the benefits of unions, thereby missing the point. Anyone who had actually been curious enough to look into the matter would have quickly spotted a few themes which mark Wal-Mart as a company to be wary of. *sigh*]
 
[quote name='greendj27'][quote name='Snake2715']I am not wasting my time reading this whole thread. Unions do a lot of damage and collect tons of money from their "members"

Let me ask a serious question. Why in the world is the union trying so hard to get into Walmart? Is it because they are SOOO concerned about the american way of life and want tp support everyone and live under a big happy tree?

Hell no its because Walmart IS the largest employer and they want their dues.

This is the biggest bunch of Union crap in the world. So some guy who sits on his ass but has been there longer gets to continue to do that at a higher pay... why? Because hes been there longer than the new guy, who goes to work and slaves away gets crap pay. Whoo go union man go.[/quote]

I need to know. Do you know anyone who works for a union? There is no such thing as "the union" as you mention above. You make it sound like every union is one and the same. A union at Wal-Mart would be made up of only employees of Wal-Mart. The purpose would be to allow them to negotiate as a whole. Without a union Wal-Mart can unilaterally enforce any company policies they want. If they want to cut everyone's healthcare benefits, they can. The only options an employee would have is to quit. With a union the employees band together to negotiate a better working situation for themselves. Strength in numbers is a huge bump in negotiating power. And as for your comment about the guy who has been there longer getting paid more than the new guy with the same job. Most companies are like this, even without a union. By being there longer you supposedly gain experience and are paid more because of it. Unions aren't perfect, but they are beneficial to employees of larger companies. My father has been in a union for paperworkers since I was born. Becuase of this, I have heard some of the crappy things a large corporation tries to pull on their employees. Oh, and people still get fired even if they are in a union. There are slackers just like any job who get away with doing less, but if an employee is not doing his or her job, they will not be working there for long. Just like any other company.[/quote]

Yeah I know a few people and I personally (as stated above) would rather "barter" my own wages and work hard to get an increase. I think some people have an unreal idea of what a "Non union" place is like for wage increases and working conditions. You work hard and you get promoted you slack you dont. I cant count how many people I know that say well after my 60,90 days I am in the union then I really wont get fired. Thats just dumb.

Also whats dumb is the dues they pay and the fact that they have to take these changes that this "union" of people want even if you as a worker dont want it . The majority decides. What crap. My brother had to pay for health care since he was at his "great" union job. He had a car accident and had no health coverage because he wasnt there long enough...but they had no problem taking hii money and now he owes upwards of 100,000 because of an emergency surgery he thought was covered and didnt apply for help. I know at my non union jobs in the past I didnt pay for health care until I had it.

Unions are the old way and I bet that half the people on here that are defending them are much older. Companies now tend to manage their employees better or word gets out. Its real easy to find out what your worht heck there are even job caluclators to tell you, use them next time and see.

And what about these strikes... What then how do you feed your family? What if they are striking for something you could care less about. Now you are in the union so you better not go to work and make that great living. What a bunch of crap and I wont believe it for one bit.
 
First up I'm 25... you decide if that's old. I feel strongly about unions, because my father has been a part of the Steelworker's union(an officer for many of those years) for the entire time that the steel industry was in my hometown, until the company left to go overseas... why? well because they can pay workers over there a couple dollars a day, and healthcare is a daydream.
Sometimes strikers are given what's called "Strike Pay" so that they continue to get some money during the strike... that's part of what the dues are for.
I don't know if retail personel or other 'service' industries need unions, I'm talking about the manufacturing sector. They definately still need them...
 
I would love if people would fall out of the habit of thinking they 'deserve' anything from their employers or from society. The references to hating wal-mart for paying low wages just so the board gets more return for their investment.. and implying that is in some way a bad thing.. it makes me shudder. I applaud someone who realizes he's in business to make money.. not to provide jobs, or to give money to other people or whatever bleeding heart horsehockey people come up with these days. Ayn Rand needs to become standardized reading for all high schools.. it would teach alot of people the way things should be.
 
[quote name='greendj27'][quote name='Snake2715']I am not wasting my time reading this whole thread. Unions do a lot of damage and collect tons of money from their "members"

Let me ask a serious question. Why in the world is the union trying so hard to get into Walmart? Is it because they are SOOO concerned about the american way of life and want tp support everyone and live under a big happy tree?

Hell no its because Walmart IS the largest employer and they want their dues.

This is the biggest bunch of Union crap in the world. So some guy who sits on his ass but has been there longer gets to continue to do that at a higher pay... why? Because hes been there longer than the new guy, who goes to work and slaves away gets crap pay. Whoo go union man go.[/quote]

I need to know. Do you know anyone who works for a union? There is no such thing as "the union" as you mention above. You make it sound like every union is one and the same. A union at Wal-Mart would be made up of only employees of Wal-Mart. The purpose would be to allow them to negotiate as a whole. Without a union Wal-Mart can unilaterally enforce any company policies they want. If they want to cut everyone's healthcare benefits, they can. The only options an employee would have is to quit. With a union the employees band together to negotiate a better working situation for themselves. Strength in numbers is a huge bump in negotiating power. And as for your comment about the guy who has been there longer getting paid more than the new guy with the same job. Most companies are like this, even without a union. By being there longer you supposedly gain experience and are paid more because of it. Unions aren't perfect, but they are beneficial to employees of larger companies. My father has been in a union for paperworkers since I was born. Becuase of this, I have heard some of the crappy things a large corporation tries to pull on their employees. Oh, and people still get fired even if they are in a union. There are slackers just like any job who get away with doing less, but if an employee is not doing his or her job, they will not be working there for long. Just like any other company.[/quote]

And what if, I, as an individual want to work at Wal-Mart but don't want to join the union?

Guess who isn't going to be working at a Wal-Mart?

And lets not get too joyous about the abuses unions "prevent". Consider the abuses they create. I am an hourly employee working in a gocerry store. I don't get the health benefits the union negotiates for the full time employees but I pay dues. In fact I get nothing.

What I would get to do is pay into the union coffers.

CTL
 
This is a pointless argument. Unions have their places in society. They were created because large businesses were abusing their employees. They attempt to resolve problems between management and workers. Many companies now only care about the stock holders since as a CEO or VP those are the people that get you fired. I think you are going to see more people join Unions, especially White colar workers since their jobs are being moved over seas as well.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']

And lets not get too joyous about the abuses unions "prevent". Consider the abuses they create. I am an hourly employee working in a gocerry store. I don't get the health benefits the union negotiates for the full time employees but I pay dues. In fact I get nothing.

What I would get to do is pay into the union coffers.

CTL[/quote]

You're right CTL... you don't get much from being in the Union, but that's because you likely don't support a family with your earnings... if I might guess, you're a high school or college student working part time... you're right the union isn't there for you, it's to protect the full time workers, those that have a family. I don't know your personal situation but it likely something like social security... where you are paying into a fund that helps pay for the full time workers healthcare... well you hate it now, but you'll likely appricate it if you eventually become full time, and then the same fund is helping you pay for your healthcare. If you have higher aspirations, then don't hate that you have to pay into this fund, consider it part of your good will to give back to those who are working that job full time. Just my opinion

Indiana said:
This is a pointless argument.
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Almost no argument is pointless... this thread has over 500 views but only 39ish posts... which means people are reading some of it. This is a form of education... and maybe some of these people haven't thought about unions before, or only hear about unions from one side, either for or against and here I think the community delivered a decent argument. It's for the betterment of all the readers.

and to top it off... it hasn't (yet) turned into a flame war. Congratz! to all who became involved.
 
Bah... it's not just walmart doing evil stuff. It's not the company that's bad.. just the executives ruleing over them.

Though, CostCo is my choice over Sams for the reason that donssword pointed out.

Oddly, I started a site just for this sort of thing but didn't think anyone here would be interested. Figured that being a CAG meant getting a game at a low price no matter who needed to be trampled. But, if you want to visit, here is the link. http://pelpem.org One of the current threads is from a friend of mine who works at GameStop.

I have to resist going to places I know don't treat their employees well, even though the deals are so good.
 
CTL, I didn't want to quote your last statement since it would have been huge. ANyway, you do get something out of the union. You get higher wages. You might not get the healthcare a fulltimer gets, but you do get something.

as for the above poster asking about how old some of us are - I am 26, and don't work for a union. Not every business needs or should have one. They mostly have a place when a large corporation is running a company. And I and I agree with Advocatus, it is mostly in the manufacturing industry where they are needed. I guess what bothers me about some of these posts is that it seems like people aren't really doing their homework. Dues aren't just paid for no reason. They pay for things like lawyers to negotiate with the companies. My dad was actually a union steward about ten years ago. He was paid absolutely nothing for his time. He did it because he believed in sticking up for him and his coworkers. Oh, wait he did get something. He received some death threats from people associated with the company. Yeah, it must be the unions fault.
 
[quote name='Advocatus']You're right CTL... you don't get much from being in the Union, but that's because you likely don't support a family with your earnings... if I might guess, you're a high school or college student working part time... you're right the union isn't there for you, it's to protect the full time workers, those that have a family. I don't know your personal situation but it likely something like social security... where you are paying into a fund that helps pay for the full time workers healthcare... well you hate it now, but you'll likely appricate it if you eventually become full time, and then the same fund is helping you pay for your healthcare. If you have higher aspirations, then don't hate that you have to pay into this fund, consider it part of your good will to give back to those who are working that job full time. Just my opinion
[/quote]

Well I appreciate that you can conceed that certain people do not benefit from unions. Given what I do, I certainly never will.

And I mean this in the best possible way - anyone counting on SS is oiut of their mind (but thats a different argument).

I live in NYC, you have no idea how much I currently pay in. So yes I do resent having to pay more.

Has anyone ever considered that not all people are entitled to make what unions give them?

As for providing union employees with higher wages, they provide me as a consumer with higher costs.

CTL
 
a target great land store just opened up right next to my wal mart.....lets see who wins this battle....i doubt wal mart will drive target anywhere...i just play them back n forth for the cheapest price....i choose target over wal mart any day tho....

on another note....why the hell doesnt wal mart have a weekly circular...
 
[quote name='Advocatus'][quote name='bmulligan']Bmulligan said:
So quit. No one can stop you from quitting. You are in control that way and if everyone decides that WalMart is a shitty place to work, then they will go out of business. case closed. [/quote]

Oh that was good for a chuckle...
You seem to miss that people need to feed their families, and that their families take precident. Most people don't have the freedom to just quit a job because it's a shitty place to work. People aren't going to just walk off the job in groups... because people need to eat. If you have a union who ensures that everyone will walk together, then it works and it's called a strike. In the end you get a compromise.

You seem to have a rather unreal view of the workplace, and what people have to do to get by. [/quote]

And you seem to have a low expectation of people and their capabilities. Maybe you're right, people are generally helpless and big companies have an obligation to feed the families of these people instead of being profitable. If you are dependent upon a company to eat or feed your family I suggest you start planning to learn a new skill now, before your job gets taken away or your job becomes obsolete. The union attitude is that people have a right to a job and have it guaranteed forever. This simply has never been possible in all of recorded history. You don't see people making buggies for horses anymore. Their jobs became obsolete as the markets changed, people changed with them. Unions are an impediment to evolution while the human mind is a natural impetus for new ideas and procedures. These two forces are diametrically opposed to one another.

I believe in the resiliency of the human will. Most people are survivors and will do whatever it takes to make a living. They can and will change with the times to get by and not feel forced or trapped into an existence that they have no control over. You are the ultimate arbiter of your sucess, failure, not the company you work for. Unfortunately, some people are unwilling to swallow their pride and flip burgers or clean toilets to make a living, the'd rather pressure the big bad greedy corporations to give them their daily bread because someone has burned into their brain the idea that they deserve it. Instead of saying 'fuck you' and finding another job, they'd rather portray themselves as the victim.

And quitting in numbers is exactly what people should do if there is an unfair workplace. Union de facto is much more powerful than union by proxy. [/quote]
 
[quote name='Advocatus']You seem to miss that people need to feed their families, and that their families take precident. [/quote]

Sorry for the double post but I really have to hammer down this statement. Yes, families take precedence. I'm not the one who missed this point. You recognize it, yet you misunderstand the reality of implementing it. Inherent in your statement is that the faith in in the company must come first, therby determining the destiny of your family second. You family is much too important for this. To put all your faith in a big corporation is foolish; you must put faith in yourself first, family second, company third.

You are somehow blanking out the existence of the company and why it exists, taking for granted that it will continue to exist forever.
 
[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='Advocatus']You seem to miss that people need to feed their families, and that their families take precident. [/quote]

Sorry for the double post but I really have to hammer down this statement. Yes, families take precedence. I'm not the one who missed this point. You recognize it, yet you misunderstand the reality of implementing it. Inherent in your statement is that the faith in in the company must come first, therby determining the destiny of your family second. You family is much too important for this. To put all your faith in a big corporation is foolish; you must put faith in yourself first, family second, company third.

You are somehow blanking out the existence of the company and why it exists, taking for granted that it will continue to exist forever.[/quote]

Unfortunately I have WAY too much work today to sit on here and chat about these things, unlike I did yesterday. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not saying I agree. I completely understand that a company is there to make money, but it doesn't have ruin the lives of their workers to make a profit. This is a major flaw in the captalisitic society we have right now... where CEO's get huge bonuses if they can cut employees, not caring what happens to those employees... This is horrible management. If those companies didn't need those employees why where they hired in the first place? The problem is the President/CEO and VP are too removed from the lives of their employees. Inheritantly the best boss's are those who grew up in a working class family and used everything they had to bring themselves up the managment ladder... I think today's CEO's are just spoiled kids of previous old money families, who think of their workers as nothing but numbers. This is a very sad way to treat a human being. Don't fool yourself by saying "that's business" or "that's life" ... you are able to make this place better, you are able to make the lives of other people better. Take a stand, and do something for someone else for a change.

Thanks for the intelligent banter Bmulligan and CAG community
 
I didn't realize you were in KoP. Kick ass mall, I went to school near there - you can guess its located in Radnor Township.

While I view your position as being wrong, I am curious as to what you do professionally?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']I didn't realize you were in KoP. Kick ass mall, I went to school near there - you can guess its located in Radnor Township.

While I view your position as being wrong, I am curious as to what you do professionally?[/quote]

He [Advocatus] works in a research lab, and I appreciate any attempts to show him how wrongheaded he is (that's just on general principle.) :)
 
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