Thoughts on Education

Today I want to talk about education. And first let me say that the teachers and proffesors I've had over the years have helped me think for myself and to become the person that I am today.

There are two main problems I would like to address with the current school system.

First is the way in which schools fail to decrease utility in material possesions. Basically they don't make us care less about physical stuff. I think that this is very important for creating a moral society. If our leaders didn't care much about their personal bank statements or that of there "good 'ol boys" network then I think we would be so much better off. Additionally people can find infinite wealth in relationships, intamicy, and intellectual pursuits. Emphasis should be put on these types of things and not material possesions.

Second is the way in which schools are funded. A school recieves funds from the local school districts property tax. So, if a school is in a district that recieves a lot of funds (a rich neighborhood) then it will recieve more funding, more books, and better teachers. If a school is in a poorer district then the schools will recieve less funding, less books, and the better teachers will have moved to different districts that offer higher salaries. This is not fair.

I think the best way around this is to put all the funds into one account for the whole state and have the funds distributed on a per child basis. I don't think that switching from property tax to sales tax is a wise idea because sales tax varies so much. If we go in reccession we don't want to have to lay off thousands of teachers.

If we decrease our interest in material possesions and create an equally funded system for our schools, then I truly believe there will be less crime and corruption in future genarations.

nice thought.. and i agree totally.. but that will never happen...

Regarding the funding issue:
I don't know enough about the details to venture a strong opinion, but a state-based pool of money does sound more equitable.

Regarding the materialism issue: We are too materialistic [hello, a website named CheapAssGamer?]
But is it the schools job to teach antimaterialism? I think morality begins at home. Anything the best--or worst--teachers in the world can do, can be undone at home. Or before the kids even get to school.
Kids under three watch on average 2-3 hours of tv a day. Many of those hours are on commercial tv where they are exposed to commercialism. And of course parents, many of whom have 50,000$ cars and 500,000% houses and work so hard and long to earn the money that they can't play ball with their son or play dolls with their daughter merely reinforce that feeling.

I have had a number of 'average' teachers, a couple crappy ones, a very few superb ones, and two great parents throughout my youth. I believe that without what my parents [or parental figures] taught and showed me, the effects of the teachers would have been greatly lessened.

Education comes from schools. Learning starts at home.

However, one simple, easy, quick, relatively painless method a school system can help to decrease the blind allegiance to 'stuff'...is to go to mandatory school uniforms. It's amazing how much more attention kids focus on learning or interacting when they're not focusing on Jack's 150$ Nikes or Betty's low-slung crop top.

That said, I don't think there's any inherent problem in being somewhat materialistic, and I don't think we need to go to a Buddha-like renouncing of all ownership. It's when the materialism crowds out all the other, metaphysical and emotional components of life, that it becomes an issue.
If anyone out there does thing we should renounce all ownership, I'll help you out, send me your stuff.

Briefly, I'll just say that

1. I don't agree on materialism. I don't think it's schools' place to tell people not to be materialistic. I think at most they should educate people on different philosophies and let them decide for themsevles.

2. On the funding I agree absolutely. The discrepancy in funding is severe in many places. Your solution doesn't account for parents' money, of course, but it's difficult to compensate for that. I think your way would help a lot though. And I agree sales taxes aren't the way to go, adding the reason that sales taxes are extremely regressive and hurt the poorest people the most.

I don't think the number one problem in our schools right now is materialism. Our number one problem is that kids are not learning. There are many children in the country that read way below their age level, if at all. I think the first step is to get our kids to learn. Overcrowded classrooms make learning difficult, so one thing to do would be to hire more teachers to cut down on class sizes. Another would be some sort of system to get rid of bad teachers, instead of shuffeling them from school to school.

Overcrowded classrooms do not help, certainly, but even if there were a 1:1 teacher:student ratio, that one teacher couldn't teach a single kid who didn't want to learn. Before anything else changes, or before we throw more money at the issue, we need to somehow have kids understanding learning/education is important, and respect teachers and *try* to learn, rather than seeing it as geekwork or selling out or whatever.

Way too much money is spent on public education.

CTL

[quote name='dtcarson']Overcrowded classrooms do not help, certainly, but even if there were a 1:1 teacher:student ratio, that one teacher couldn't teach a single kid who didn't want to learn. Before anything else changes, or before we throw more money at the issue, we need to somehow have kids understanding learning/education is important, and respect teachers and *try* to learn, rather than seeing it as geekwork or selling out or whatever.[/quote]

I completely agree, we have to make kids aware about what an education is all about and what it does for you. I think what pisses me off the most, is the amount of parents that don't care about their children's education. This happens...alot. Kids will even be absent days at a time from school and when a call is placed or a truant officer shows up the parent(s) know absolutely nothing about it. You can't teach a child who is only there 65% of the time. So we can gripe about materialism and funding all we want really, but until we get both the kids AND the parents to realize how valuable an education is, we won't see much of a change in our education system.

[quote name='Darthrook']

First is the way in which schools fail to decrease utility in material possesions. Basically they don't make us care less about physical stuff. I think that this is very important for creating a moral society. If our leaders didn't care much about their personal bank statements or that of there "good 'ol boys" network then I think we would be so much better off. Additionally people can find infinite wealth in relationships, intamicy, and intellectual pursuits. Emphasis should be put on these types of things and not material possesions.[/quote]

WRONG - we don't need more communist thought in the public school system

Second is the way in which schools are funded. A school recieves funds from the local school districts property tax. So, if a school is in a district that recieves a lot of funds (a rich neighborhood) then it will recieve more funding, more books, and better teachers. If a school is in a poorer district then the schools will recieve less funding, less books, and the better teachers will have moved to different districts that offer higher salaries. This is not fair.

Click to expand...

WRONG- most states (especially Michigan) collect taxes and a portion of property tax statewide, then re-distribute it to communities as they see fit. Supposedly it's to 'equalize' the districts. Only the districts that didn't have favors to call in from legislators get screwed. Otherwise, most districts get about the same amount of money. And don't forget about the federal money too, that's on a per pupil basis. Perhaps if we didn't filter all that money through the state and local bureaucracies, we'd all have enough left over to but some new textbooks. All this re-distribution really does is give some fat cat governmnet officials limo rides, free vacations, and $200,00 a year jobs.

Schools suck cause they they can't enforce any kind of discipline or respect. After a while kids think school is a joke and just don't care anymore. My friend was a 2 grade teacher - he quit cause the kids were horrible and would curse out teachers to their faces or worse - and yes it was the 2nd graders.

Also teachers need to be scrutinized, watched and tested on a regular basis. I can't tell you how many teachers didn't teach shit or would only pay attention to their favorite ass kissing students.

School is a joke - I missed most of my senior highschool year and I still got a B.

If you want your kids to get a real education home school them or send them to a family that does.

The REAL problem with public school is that parents now treat it like day care and expect the school to raise their kids thus not teaching them things like decency, respect or the importance of an education.

[quote name='Scrubking']Schools suck cause they they can't enforce any kind of discipline or respect. After a while kids think school is a joke and just don't care anymore. My friend was a 2 grade teacher - he quit cause the kids were horrible and would curse out teachers to their faces or worse - and yes it was the 2nd graders.

Also teachers need to be scrutinized, watched and tested on a regular basis. I can't tell you how many teachers didn't teach shit or would only pay attention to their favorite ass kissing students.

School is a joke - I missed most of my senior highschool year and I still got a B.

If you want your kids to get a real education home school them or send them to a family that does.

The REAL problem with public school is that parents now treat it like day care and expect the school to raise their kids thus not teaching them things like decency, respect or the importance of an education.[/quote]

There in lies the problem, people want to hold teacher to such high standards, expect them to spends lots of time keeping up with education, yet still continue to pay them a crappy salary.

What Scrubking said: the problem with school isn't with the schools themselves: its with the parents. Kids need a good thwack upside the head every once in a while, and not enough parents are doing that. They send their kids off to school more poorly behaved than the average orangutan, then act surprised when the kid fails to learn anything.

Education doesn't concern me anymore, but I thought the school system I went through was excellent.

[quote name='guardian_owl'][quote name='Scrubking']Schools suck cause they they can't enforce any kind of discipline or respect. After a while kids think school is a joke and just don't care anymore. My friend was a 2 grade teacher - he quit cause the kids were horrible and would curse out teachers to their faces or worse - and yes it was the 2nd graders.

Also teachers need to be scrutinized, watched and tested on a regular basis. I can't tell you how many teachers didn't teach shit or would only pay attention to their favorite ass kissing students.

School is a joke - I missed most of my senior highschool year and I still got a B.

If you want your kids to get a real education home school them or send them to a family that does.

The REAL problem with public school is that parents now treat it like day care and expect the school to raise their kids thus not teaching them things like decency, respect or the importance of an education.[/quote]

There in lies the problem, people want to hold teacher to such high standards, expect them to spends lots of time keeping up with education, yet still continue to pay them a crappy salary.[/quote]

Yeah, well every important hard working job in this country pays shit while entertainers like britney make millions. It's the way of the world.

The kind of teachers we need don't teach for the money.
My mom taught for 30+ years, my grandmother the same, and my dad about 10. No, we weren't rich. My mom actually taught in 'normal' school but asked for the 'borderline' kids [the kids with problems who were just barely eligible for public school instead of special school.] She had the cops come to her class three or four times in one year for a student. She taught 2nd grade. She didn't reach everyone, by 2nd grade a lot of the framework of their learning had been set already, but she did reach some. She has had students come back to her after graduating high school or college and say Thank you. That's why she teaches. [And she also went through continuing education herself throughout the year and summer, it's not a 'three month vacation' job.]
Now, I certainly wouldn't mind if she had been making 100k. We are spending a lot of money on schools, buttoo much of it is for computers in every 1st grade room for kids who can't write a sentence, or metal detectors at the doors, instead of teacher salaries. I wish there were a good, fair way to give teachers raises/bonuses based on performance, but it's too easy to just give everybody good grades.

As a culture, we don't value a good education enough. This is not an anti-Republican rant, but they do provide a few good examples. The GOP likes to complain about "intellectual elites." Personally, I'd like to know that the people running the country are at least as smart as I am and preferrably smarter. Bush brags that he doesn't read newspapers and was a lousy student in school.

But it's not just Republicans. There are too many people who look down on a good education and would prefer to "keep it real" (for lack of a better term). Meanwhile a lot of immigrants (especially recent ones) kick ass in school because they and their families know the value of a good education.

Have you seen the PSA with the guy getting the tiny wallet because he dropped out of high school and therefore won't be making as much money? Why is this ad even necessary? It should already be widely known that unless you are extremely brilliant or lucky, you're screwed if you drop out of high school.

[quote name='MrBadExample']As a culture, we don't value a good education enough. This is not an anti-Republican rant, but they do provide a few good examples. The GOP likes to complain about "intellectual elites." Personally, I'd like to know that the people running the country are at least as smart as I am and preferrably smarter. Bush brags that he doesn't read newspapers and was a lousy student in school.

But it's not just Republicans. There are too many people who look down on a good education and would prefer to "keep it real" (for lack of a better term). Meanwhile a lot of immigrants (especially recent ones) kick ass in school because they and their families know the value of a good education.

Have you seen the PSA with the guy getting the tiny wallet because he dropped out of high school and therefore won't be making as much money? Why is this ad even necessary? It should already be widely known that unless you are extremely brilliant or lucky, you're screwed if you drop out of high school.[/quote]

Good point. On a related note, I despise the celebrity worship in our culture. I think this is somewhat related to what you're saying.

[quote name='dtcarson']Overcrowded classrooms do not help, certainly, but even if there were a 1:1 teacher:student ratio, that one teacher couldn't teach a single kid who didn't want to learn. Before anything else changes, or before we throw more money at the issue, we need to somehow have kids understanding learning/education is important, and respect teachers and *try* to learn, rather than seeing it as geekwork or selling out or whatever.[/quote]

I didn't mean that cutting down classroom size is the be all end all answer to our education problem. I think it makes a big help though if a teacher is handling a class of say 15-20 as opposed to 25-30.

I also agree with *gasp* Scubking when he says the teacher needs to be able to discipline students. It will be hard to control a classroom if students feel they can get away with being disruptive. I don't mean hitting students, but other forms of punishment.

Getting parents involved would also be a big help. There is no one solution to getting our education system better, and there are things that have to be done on the govt side along with the parents. It won't be easy or quick, but I think it can be done if the right ideas are put into place.

[quote name='MrBadExample']As a culture, we don't value a good education enough. This is not an anti-Republican rant, but they do provide a few good examples. The GOP likes to complain about "intellectual elites." Personally, I'd like to know that the people running the country are at least as smart as I am and preferrably smarter. Bush brags that he doesn't read newspapers and was a lousy student in school.

But it's not just Republicans. There are too many people who look down on a good education and would prefer to "keep it real" (for lack of a better term). Meanwhile a lot of immigrants (especially recent ones) kick ass in school because they and their families know the value of a good education.
[/quote]

Good thing it's 'not just Republicans' who apparently hate education [?]. I'm a Republican, and both my parents [with the combined 45+ years of teaching, and my mom, though retired, still tutors] are lifelong Republicans as well. Education and learning are incredibly important, and I don't even know where you're getting that Republicans don't think so.
I don't support throwing ten million dollars to a school system to buy computers for first graders who don't know how to handwrite yet; I don't support the fact that most BoE ignore the feedback of the parents in their community; I wish that there were some sort of competition or voucher program or something that would naturally force schools to actually start producing quality education rather than taking advantage of their near-monopoly.
It's funny you somehow blame Republicans for this; my perception of the turning point in education was when we went from grading and testing kids to making sure they 'feel good' and have 'good self esteem'. No, Johnny 2+2 is not 74, but you get an A for Effort. That thinking did not come from a Republican. And most institutes of 'higher learning' are merely not-very-well-camoflaged liberal propaganda mills.

Decreasing classroom size will certainly help, I do agree, especially at the younger ages. But it's not a panacea. Too many parents and kids, like someone mentioned above, view school as a daycare, or live their lives in a way to negate, rather than support, what is taught [not that parents shouldn't be involved and possibly question what is taught at times.] The respect thing as well: when I was growing up, I was taught to view certain people/professions/roles with respect, merely because of that role. Policeman, firefighter, teacher, etc. are all honorable callings and deserve respect, though certainly each profession has its share of 'bad eggs.'

I hate how people are blaming teachers for low test scores, and I think it is shitty to teach content for a national test. No Child Left Behind is a horrible policy, it takes the blame that should be on the student/parent and places it solely on the teacher

[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='MrBadExample']As a culture, we don't value a good education enough. This is not an anti-Republican rant, but they do provide a few good examples. The GOP likes to complain about "intellectual elites." Personally, I'd like to know that the people running the country are at least as smart as I am and preferrably smarter. Bush brags that he doesn't read newspapers and was a lousy student in school.

But it's not just Republicans. There are too many people who look down on a good education and would prefer to "keep it real" (for lack of a better term). Meanwhile a lot of immigrants (especially recent ones) kick ass in school because they and their families know the value of a good education.
[/quote]

Good thing it's 'not just Republicans' who apparently hate education [?]. I'm a Republican, and both my parents [with the combined 45+ years of teaching, and my mom, though retired, still tutors] are lifelong Republicans as well. Education and learning are incredibly important, and I don't even know where you're getting that Republicans don't think so.
I don't support throwing ten million dollars to a school system to buy computers for first graders who don't know how to handwrite yet; I don't support the fact that most BoE ignore the feedback of the parents in their community; I wish that there were some sort of competition or voucher program or something that would naturally force schools to actually start producing quality education rather than taking advantage of their near-monopoly.
It's funny you somehow blame Republicans for this; my perception of the turning point in education was when we went from grading and testing kids to making sure they 'feel good' and have 'good self esteem'. No, Johnny 2+2 is not 74, but you get an A for Effort. That thinking did not come from a Republican. And most institutes of 'higher learning' are merely not-very-well-camoflaged liberal propaganda mills.

Decreasing classroom size will certainly help, I do agree, especially at the younger ages. But it's not a panacea. Too many parents and kids, like someone mentioned above, view school as a daycare, or live their lives in a way to negate, rather than support, what is taught [not that parents shouldn't be involved and possibly question what is taught at times.] The respect thing as well: when I was growing up, I was taught to view certain people/professions/roles with respect, merely because of that role. Policeman, firefighter, teacher, etc. are all honorable callings and deserve respect, though certainly each profession has its share of 'bad eggs.'[/quote]

There is an anti-intellectualism that runs through the GOP. Democrats don't rail against the "intellectual elites." I'm not claiming all Republicans are like that, but the ones running the show now are. It would have been hard for Bush to have been born into a more privileged family, yet he remains intellectually incurious after an Ivy League education.

Anti-intellectual-elitism, yes. Which is surprising, since allegedly Democrats are the party of understanding, tolerance, and acceptance, and intellectual elitism is about as intolerant and class-oriented as you can get, for them to practice it so much.
I respect and support and enjoy education. BUT certain education isn't for
everyone. My dad has two Masters; my mom has a degree and multiple teaching certificates; I have a BA, and my brother has one year at a community college. Does that make me better than him? No. College wasn't for him. He's got a good job and enjoys his life. If i were to think 'Oh, he didn't go to college, he's not fit to shine my shoes', that's intellectual elitism, and I do have a problem with that.
Being against intellectual elitism is not the same thing as being against education. Education is important, and ongoing--everyone learns something every day. But to say a degree from Public U isn't as good as a degree from Fancy Rich Private School, or that a student at PU isn't as good as FRPS, is definitely elitism, and I'd 'rail against' it too.
There's a difference between being intellectual and being an intellectual elite. 'A for Effort' self-esteem notwithstanding, not everyone can do everything, or know everything, or understand everything. I don't hold someone's lack of intelligence or knowledge against them--I hold their willful and continued ignorance about the education they need against them. I don't have 'knowledge' about, say, how to replace my transmission in my car, or what the major causes of diphtheria are--but I'm not ignorant: when I need to know that info, I know how to go about finding it, and whom to ask.

And your last comment makes an interesting point, which I don't know if you're meaning to make:

"It would have been hard for Bush to have been born into a more privileged family, yet he remains intellectually incurious after an Ivy League education."

I am of the opinion, widely held by many Republicans, that you appreciate something more when you have worked to earn it, rather than having it given to you by parents, the state, or the nanny government in its many guises.

That thinking is core to many Republican policies [well, the ones that weren't written as a 'compromise' with some of the more leftward Democrats]; rather than giving someone something and having them become dependent upon it/you, we'll have the person work for it or contribute toward it so when s/he does get it, it's not just wasted or taken with no appreciation. Much like education--a teacher doesn't just fill your head with stuff, a student has to work to learn and understand. I'm involved with training in my job, and that's one of the things I point out to my 'students'--I can train all I want, but if you don't work at learning/understanding, if you don't ask questions, if you don't help me help you, we might as well go home.

bmulligan wrote: WRONG- most states (especially Michigan) collect taxes and a portion of property tax statewide, then re-distribute it to communities as they see fit. Supposedly it's to 'equalize' the districts. Otherwise, most districts get about the same amount of money.


From my studies and research Michigan seems to be the exception and not the rule. Most states do have some re-distribution, yet most districts do not get the same amount of money.

A report presented by the US General Accounting Office in 1997 (School Finance) found that, in the United States, the average school in a wealthy district receives 24% more funding than the average school in a poor district.

Despite efforts in many states, funding gaps continue to be a serious problem. In 41 of 50 states, poor districts receive less total funding than wealthy districts.

http://www.geocities.com/~schoolfunding/equity_in_education_projec.html

And as far as National funding goes...this problem [is] because education is largely a state and local concern, with federal dollars accounting for only about 7 percent of school spending.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/6547/lessons.html

If you have any credible reports or data that are contrary to the evidence that I just presented then I would be more than happy to read it.

[quote name='Scrubking']
The REAL problem with public school is that parents now treat it like day care and expect the school to raise their kids thus not teaching them things like decency, respect or the importance of an education.[/quote]

I agree with this statement, except that the problem isn't with schools - it's with parents. As you said, if parents taught their kids to behave and taught them the value of education, then the schools wouldn't need to worry so much about discipline and such.

As someone else said, kids have to want to learn. And parents have to instill that in them.

[quote name='dtcarson']Anti-intellectual-elitism, yes. Which is surprising, since allegedly Democrats are the party of understanding, tolerance, and acceptance, and intellectual elitism is about as intolerant and class-oriented as you can get, for them to practice it so much.
I respect and support and enjoy education. BUT certain education isn't for
everyone. My dad has two Masters; my mom has a degree and multiple teaching certificates; I have a BA, and my brother has one year at a community college. Does that make me better than him? No. College wasn't for him. He's got a good job and enjoys his life. If i were to think 'Oh, he didn't go to college, he's not fit to shine my shoes', that's intellectual elitism, and I do have a problem with that.
Being against intellectual elitism is not the same thing as being against education. Education is important, and ongoing--everyone learns something every day. But to say a degree from Public U isn't as good as a degree from Fancy Rich Private School, or that a student at PU isn't as good as FRPS, is definitely elitism, and I'd 'rail against' it too.
There's a difference between being intellectual and being an intellectual elite. 'A for Effort' self-esteem notwithstanding, not everyone can do everything, or know everything, or understand everything. I don't hold someone's lack of intelligence or knowledge against them--I hold their willful and continued ignorance about the education they need against them. I don't have 'knowledge' about, say, how to replace my transmission in my car, or what the major causes of diphtheria are--but I'm not ignorant: when I need to know that info, I know how to go about finding it, and whom to ask.[/quote]

I don't think our opinions are that far apart, perhaps just stated differently. When I said "intellectual elites" I was using the phrase as some Republicans use it. I do think it is more an anti-intellectual bias that they give off though. I'm not for elitism in any fashion. But I do think there is a lot of anti-intellectualism in populist arguments these days and most of it comes from conservatives. Education should not be a partisan issue.

And your last comment makes an interesting point, which I don't know if you're meaning to make:

"It would have been hard for Bush to have been born into a more privileged family, yet he remains intellectually incurious after an Ivy League education."

I am of the opinion, widely held by many Republicans, that you appreciate something more when you have worked to earn it, rather than having it given to you by parents, the state, or the nanny government in its many guises.

That thinking is core to many Republican policies [well, the ones that weren't written as a 'compromise' with some of the more leftward Democrats]; rather than giving someone something and having them become dependent upon it/you, we'll have the person work for it or contribute toward it so when s/he does get it, it's not just wasted or taken with no appreciation. Much like education--a teacher doesn't just fill your head with stuff, a student has to work to learn and understand. I'm involved with training in my job, and that's one of the things I point out to my 'students'--I can train all I want, but if you don't work at learning/understanding, if you don't ask questions, if you don't help me help you, we might as well go home.

Click to expand...

I agree with you here mostly. Anything you have to work for will be more meaningful to you. But this does seem to be one of Bush's negatives. He's been handed everything he's ever gotten because of his name and his father's rich friends. Molly Ivans has a great quote about Dubya, "He was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple."