Iraq invasion illegal, Annan says

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Iraq invasion illegal, Annan says
UN head questions whether election will be able to be held in January

UNITED NATIONS -- Secretary-General Kofi Annan said yesterday that the U.S.-led invasion to overthrow Saddam Hussein was illegal because it violated the United Nations Charter, and questioned whether Iraq will be able to hold an election in January if the violence gripping the country persists.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...C/20040916/ANNAN16SB/TPInternational/Americas
 
Yeah, considering how many millions his son lost by no longer being able to administrate the oil for palaces program I'm shocked that this is his conclusion.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, considering how many millions his son lost by no longer being able to administrate the food for palaces program I'm shocked that this is his conclusion.[/quote]

Nice way to avoid arguing whether the war was illegal or not.
 
Maybe the UN's lack of support for Gulf War II has something to do with our conveniently stumbling upon this credibility-ruining Oil For Food scandal.
I must say, our timing for truly was impeccible. Just a thought.

Regardless, that, too, fails to address the question of our unjustifiable Operation Iraqi Freedom's legality.
 
I am getting tired of thess arguments based on liberals ignoring the facts to spew their Bush hatred.

1. Saddam broke the cease fire agreement

2. The UN told Saddam to disarm and all he did was give them the runaround as usual

3. Saddam supported and harbored terrorists
 
[quote name='Scrubking']I am getting tired of thess arguments based on liberals ignoring the facts to spew their Bush hatred.

1. Saddam broke the cease fire agreement

2. The UN told Saddam to disarm and all he did was give them the runaround as usual

3. Saddam supported and harbored terrorists[/quote]

I am getting tired of these arguments based on Bush apologists ignoring the facts to spew their pro-Bush rhetoric.

1. Are you referring to the cease-fire agreement made after the Gulf War? If so, we bombed them for that already. Six years ago. Then again three years ago. I don't think that's what this is about.

2. If I remember correctly, Saddam Hussein did disarm... after the inspection of 1998, the consensus was that Saddam had dismantled his nuclear weapons program. Well, now we know that's true, a little late unfortunately.

3. As Brent Scowcroft, former National Security Advisor, wrote in a Wall Street Journal editorial, "there is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks."

It's also interesting to note that, before the war, the DIA declared that the information provided by Ahmed Chalabi, one of the chief sources of pre-war intel, "was of little or no value."

Well, that's the kind of thing you didn't hear about from the corporate-run media, who were doing everything in their power to push the country into war.
 
1. Are you referring to the cease-fire agreement made after the Gulf War? If so, we bombed them for that already. Six years ago. Then again three years ago. I don't think that's what this is about.

Do you even know what a ceasefire agreement is? Apparently not. It means that you both agree to stop shooting - IT DOES NOT MEAN THE THE WAR IS OVER. We were plenty patient with them, especially with them shooting at our jets every day.

2. If I remember correctly, Saddam Hussein did disarm... after the inspection of 1998, the consensus was that Saddam had dismantled his nuclear weapons program. Well, now we know that's true, a little late unfortunately.

So what? During the last resolution he was told to disarm again and open himself up for UNHINDERED inspection, and he didn't do it.

3. As Brent Scowcroft, former National Security Advisor, wrote in a Wall Street Journal editorial, "there is scant evidence to tie Saddam to terrorist organizations, and even less to the Sept. 11 attacks."

Since common sense is something liberals apparently severly lack let me help you out. There are terrorists in every country that is muslim or has a large population of muslims. To say that Iraq is the only country that didn't have terrorists, when even the US had them, is unfathomably stupid.

Well, that's the kind of thing you didn't hear about from the corporate-run media, who were doing everything in their power to push the country into war.

It is a well known fact that the majority of the elite media is liberal. It was only when Fox news started beating everyone in ratings that the other outlets became more moderate.
 
"It means that you both agree to stop shooting - IT DOES NOT MEAN THE THE WAR IS OVER."
Huh. I'm not sure I follow that logic, but if you say so...

"During the last resolution he was told to disarm again and open himself up for UNHINDERED inspection, and he didn't do it."
Going by the logic that Saddam opened himself to invasion by not allowing his country to be inspected by the UN, George Bush opened himself up for impeachment by not allowing an independent probe to inspect the intelligence failure behind September 11th.

So, care to concede that such circumstantial evidence is not acceptable justification for a war, or concede that what is evidence enough to take down one leader should be evidence enough to take down another?

"Since common sense is something liberals apparently severly lack let me help you out."
You're right. Us stupid liberals. We're responsible for everything bad in this world, such as:
-- Women's rights
-- Racial equality (both are works in progress)
-- Seatbelts & essentially all other safety requirements and regulations
-- Social security
-- Minimum wage
-- 40-hour work week
Liberals... When will they learn that progress is merely the absence of common sense!

To address your response, the point is that there is very little evidence that Saddam Hussein supported terrorists, not that there were no terrorists whatsoever in Iraq.

"It is a well known fact that the majority of the elite media is liberal. It was only when Fox news started beating everyone in ratings that the other outlets became more moderate."
Interesting perception. Obviously, we're forgetting the lavish support the media gave to the first Gulf War, their overall support of NAFTA, and their overall opposition to single-payer healthcare. Liberal power-grabbers if I've ever seen them!
In fact, read this quote from the "liberal media" from an interview regarding Iran-Contra, from 1993 (Fox News began in '96):
"Mr. Blanton, why does this issue remain important? Clearly, the public is bored with it. The polls all show that years ago they stopped being interested in it. Why not, as Mr. Bush describes in his pardon statement, why not bring in the healing power of the pardon and sweep it away and sweep the bitterness away?" - PBS, MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Boy, sounds like the liberals sure have the media by the balls, doesn't it?
 
2.) He didn't? I don't recall Hans Blix having any complaints about the cooperation they were getting. Oh, yeah, we pulled 'em out of Iraq so we could invade. But short of that, I don't believe that Blix had any complaints about the Iraqis' cooperation.

3.) So, you're saying we should invade the US, as well? The *point* was supposed to be a connection to Al Qaeda. The *point* was supposed to be that Hussein was a legitimate threat to the US. One of the terrorists (Al Zarqawi) who was supposedly "supported" by the Iraqi government was supposed to have had a leg amputated in Baghdad. That was supposed to be evidence Hussein helped Al Qaeda. Well, Al Zarqawi, as you know, has shown up. Standing on both legs. Oh, there was Al Qaeda in Iraq, no doubt. Training camps, even. In the northern, Kurd-controlled territory, out of Hussein's control.

Am I saying he's not a bad man? OF course not. But the reasons we were given for invading have all turned out to either be wrong, or lies, or a combination of the two.

I *love* the line, "since common sense..." in the above post (actually, the post two above this - EDIT). Particularly because the response after that is *so* completely idiotic, and inane, that I couldn't help but thing you were being intentionally hilarious. I often do mistake complete stupidity for humor, though.

seppo
 
[quote name='Shifty Lazar']You're right. Us stupid liberals. We're responsible for everything bad in this world, such as:
-- Women's rights
-- Racial equality (both are works in progress)
-- Seatbelts & essentially all other safety requirements and regulations
-- Social security
-- Minimum wage
-- 40-hour work week
Liberals... When will they learn that progress is merely the absence of common sense!

[/quote]

This is classic! Liberals love to take credit for achievements like these, as payment for voting for them, not becuase it's the right thing to do. Women had nothing to do with gaining their own rights. Minorities owe liberals for thiers. We're only safe becuase of them, and we owe them our paychecks and jobs because they made them for us. I really can't say anything more without losing my shirt from my Hulk transformation which is about to happen from reading the liberal achievement list. Liberals gave us women's rights......I love it ! I'll be laughing all day at work thinking about this fact that has been inked upon the liberal psyche.


Going by the logic that Saddam opened himself to invasion by not allowing his country to be inspected by the UN, George Bush opened himself up for impeachment by not allowing an independent probe to inspect the intelligence failure behind September 11th.

Have you actually READ the 9/11 report? It's only $10 at your local bookstore, and it's only 500 pages. You should give it a look becuase obviously you have not yet done so. The last time I checked, it was a bipartisan commission, and suprisingly, it was a fair and balanced report(opinion, mine).

While you're at it, instead of simply memorizing the standard liberal rhetoric for later regurgitation, you should do some reading. Start with : UN resolution 1441, it's predecessors such as : 1284, 1205, 1194,1154,1137,1134,1115,1060,1051,949,715,707,688,687,686,and 678. And tell me you think Iraq should not have been held to answer for it's transgressions. Koffi Anon is a gutless coward. But that is a job requirement for his position. It's easy to fault others when you have no real power or authority over anything, except perhaps a monopoly on a corrupt global charity operation given to him by the collusion of countries willing to gang up on a select few. You think hte oil for food program was an anomaly? I doubt it.
 
Evertime I hear or see a list of "liberal achievements" I hear a cash register going off.

Minimum wage ***CHA CHING***
Social Security ***CHA CHING***
Medicaid ***CHA CHING***
Medicare ***CHA CHING***
AFDC/Welfare ***CHA CHING***

So every bit of progress is "liberal"? You want to take responsibility for the failure of the Great Society? Do you want to take the blame for the collapse of the black family due to the government taking the role of fathers? Do you want to take credit for giving drivers licenses, government services, medical care and public school educations to illegal immigrants? Do you want to take credit for sending social security checks to Mexico? Perhaps you'd like to lay claim to spending countless billions on inner city schools that don't work and refusing parents of those children the opportunity to send their kids to a better public or private school?

Yes, liberals are due a great deal of credit in modern American life.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']There are terrorists in every country that is muslim or has a large population of muslims. To say that Iraq is the only country that didn't have terrorists, when even the US had them, is unfathomably stupid.
[/quote]

Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

We should probably invade France as well:

1) we hate them
2) there are terrorists there (so they are harboring terrorists)
3) we did a pretty good job storming their beaches last time
 
Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:
 
[quote name='Scrubking']Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:[/quote]

Do you have any idea about the history between al Qaeda and Saddam? You realize, of course, that al Qaeda wanted nothing more than to overthrow Saddam and establish a religious government, right? And Saddam knew that.
 
"Women had nothing to do with gaining their own rights."
Ummm... Did it ever occur to you that women can be liberals, too? Every woman fighting for equality was fighting for a liberal cause.
The liberal Americans were up in arms, men and women alike, fighting for women's sufferage.
Conservative Americans were the ones who believed this proposition to be too radical, that a woman's place was in the home, just like it says in the Bible! Some still believe that to this day.

"Minorities owe liberals for thiers."
See above, only replace every instance of the word "woman" with "minority."
Once again, when liberals of every color stood in favor of the Civil Rights Act, it was the conservatives, be they Republicans or Dixiecrats, who said that, once again, this was a radical proposition, a violation of "states' rights" (a favorite conservative phrase) and a violation of God's Sacred Law.

Everything I mentioned is a liberal accomplishment, and with a complete absence of liberalism, if everyone wanted to keep things as they were ("conserve" outdated ideals - hence the term "conservative"), none of them would have been happened.

"Have you actually READ the 9/11 report?"
I know that George Bush did eventually allow a probe to take place. He did fight it though.
But likewise, Saddam eventually allowed weapons inspectors into Iraq. And we still attacked him. Making my parallel even more accurate than I had originally intended.

"Koffi Anon is a gutless coward."
Typical American arrogance.
The UN made the resolutions, and to assume that we can better enforce them than the people who made them is pure nationalistic arrogance.

"You want to take responsibility for the failure of the Great Society?"
The Great Society gave us Head Start, so it wasn't a complete failure.
Also, "... between 1965 and 1968 ... black-family income rose from 54 percent to 60 percent of white-family income."
The Great Society failed because it lacked funding - in part because of the Vietnam War, and later because President Reagan overturned it in his 1981 budget.

"Perhaps you'd like to lay claim to spending countless billions on inner city schools that don't work and refusing parents of those children the opportunity to send their kids to a better public or private school?"
If you're referring to school vouchers, then it's a proposal that is an attempt by conservatives to privatize education. When given the choice, many people will choose private schools, draining critical funds from public schools. And when the education system is completely privatized, then what will happen? Schools will become another capitalist commodity - profit will take priority over all, just as happened in every other capitalist industry - healthcare, the arts, etc. Since the majority of private schools in America are religious, not only is this an attempt to privatize the school system, it's also an attempt to achieve public financing of religious education, a clear violation of the First Amendment.
As Reverend Jerry Falwell said of vouchers, "I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them."

Also, consider the fact that vouchers are just reinforcement for that class system we liberals have been trying to fight for so long.
Allow me to demonstrate:
A poor family and a wealthy family both receive school vouchers. The poor family cannot afford to spend any additional money on education outside of that provided by the voucher. The rich family can spare a little extra if the voucher alone isn't enough for the school they want.
In this scenario, the "freedom of school choice" only goes to the wealthy family, as the poor family cannot send their child to a private school that costs more than the voucher provides. The poor family must accept a school of lower quality than the wealthy family.
This could also be seen as a racial issue, since most of the wealthy people in our country are white (racism is another thing we Communist liberals are against).

But, of course, this isn't about vouchers, I just have to say something when I hear people talk about them as the Savior of Education.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking']Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:[/quote]

Do you have any idea about the history between al Qaeda and Saddam? You realize, of course, that al Qaeda wanted nothing more than to overthrow Saddam and establish a religious government, right? And Saddam knew that.[/quote]



FOR THE LAST TIME, AL-QUEDA IS NOT THE ONLY TERRORIST GROUP IN THE WORLD
 
I think this is all funny considering Saddam broke so many laws it's not funny, killed millions, and the UN sat on there ass.

Then when the UN did do something *gasps!* it was the "Oil for Food" program that was really the "oil for UN members getting money" program.

Whatever the fuck the UN says the world should do the oppisite.

Plus maybe the UN would like if we stopped their free NYC trips. They get away with so much when they are there they are breaking countless laws.
 
[quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking']Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:[/quote]

Do you have any idea about the history between al Qaeda and Saddam? You realize, of course, that al Qaeda wanted nothing more than to overthrow Saddam and establish a religious government, right? And Saddam knew that.[/quote]


FOR THE LAST TIME, AL-QUEDA IS NOT THE ONLY TERRORIST GROUP IN THE WORLD[/quote]

Then name one terrorist group in Iraq when Saddam was in power.
 
Why do terrorist have to have a name? I thought the point of them was to have a group that no one would notice in order to kill people.
 
[quote name='David85']Why do terrorist have to have a name? I thought the point of them was to have a group that no one would notice in order to kill people.[/quote]

Scrubking is saying terrorist GROUP. Meaning plural, meaning working together. I'd like to see some evidence that "Saddam was harboring terrorists in Iraq". Scrubking? Or are you just making crap up again?
 
[quote name='David85']Why do terrorist have to have a name? I thought the point of them was to have a group that no one would notice in order to kill people.[/quote]

Terrorist have a name so that they can take credit for terrorist acts and try to promote their agenda.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='David85']Why do terrorist have to have a name? I thought the point of them was to have a group that no one would notice in order to kill people.[/quote]

Terrorist have a name so that they can take credit for terrorist acts and try to promote their agenda.[/quote]

Yeah, they don't let you know they're terrorists before the fact, they're at least smarter than that.
 
Iraq had funding for every major terror from the 1993 WTC bombing to the USS Cole in 1999, and you think they magicly left people?
 
[quote name='David85']Iraq had funding for every major terror from the 1993 WTC bombing to the USS Cole in 1999, and you think they magicly left people?[/quote]

Come again?
 
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']"Women had nothing to do with gaining their own rights."
Ummm... Did it ever occur to you that women can be liberals, too? Every woman fighting for equality was fighting for a liberal cause.
The liberal Americans were up in arms, men and women alike, fighting for women's sufferage.
Conservative Americans were the ones who believed this proposition to be too radical, that a woman's place was in the home, just like it says in the Bible! Some still believe that to this day.

"Minorities owe liberals for thiers."
See above, only replace every instance of the word "woman" with "minority."
Once again, when liberals of every color stood in favor of the Civil Rights Act, it was the conservatives, be they Republicans or Dixiecrats, who said that, once again, this was a radical proposition, a violation of "states' rights" (a favorite conservative phrase) and a violation of God's Sacred Law.

Everything I mentioned is a liberal accomplishment, and with a complete absence of liberalism, if everyone wanted to keep things as they were ("conserve" outdated ideals - hence the term "conservative"), none of them would have been happened.

"Have you actually READ the 9/11 report?"
I know that George Bush did eventually allow a probe to take place. He did fight it though.
But likewise, Saddam eventually allowed weapons inspectors into Iraq. And we still attacked him. Making my parallel even more accurate than I had originally intended.

"Koffi Anon is a gutless coward."
Typical American arrogance.
The UN made the resolutions, and to assume that we can better enforce them than the people who made them is pure nationalistic arrogance.

"You want to take responsibility for the failure of the Great Society?"
The Great Society gave us Head Start, so it wasn't a complete failure.
Also, "... between 1965 and 1968 ... black-family income rose from 54 percent to 60 percent of white-family income."
The Great Society failed because it lacked funding - in part because of the Vietnam War, and later because President Reagan overturned it in his 1981 budget.

"Perhaps you'd like to lay claim to spending countless billions on inner city schools that don't work and refusing parents of those children the opportunity to send their kids to a better public or private school?"
If you're referring to school vouchers, then it's a proposal that is an attempt by conservatives to privatize education. When given the choice, many people will choose private schools, draining critical funds from public schools. And when the education system is completely privatized, then what will happen? Schools will become another capitalist commodity - profit will take priority over all, just as happened in every other capitalist industry - healthcare, the arts, etc. Since the majority of private schools in America are religious, not only is this an attempt to privatize the school system, it's also an attempt to achieve public financing of religious education, a clear violation of the First Amendment.
As Reverend Jerry Falwell said of vouchers, "I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them."

Also, consider the fact that vouchers are just reinforcement for that class system we liberals have been trying to fight for so long.
Allow me to demonstrate:
A poor family and a wealthy family both receive school vouchers. The poor family cannot afford to spend any additional money on education outside of that provided by the voucher. The rich family can spare a little extra if the voucher alone isn't enough for the school they want.
In this scenario, the "freedom of school choice" only goes to the wealthy family, as the poor family cannot send their child to a private school that costs more than the voucher provides. The poor family must accept a school of lower quality than the wealthy family.
This could also be seen as a racial issue, since most of the wealthy people in our country are white (racism is another thing we Communist liberals are against).

But, of course, this isn't about vouchers, I just have to say something when I hear people talk about them as the Savior of Education
.[/quote]

Swifty, ascribing these acomplishments to liberal causes and equating the classical definition of the word liberal to it's modern connotation applied to communist leaning democrats shows your apparant lack of understanding of the term liberal, either then or now.
 
Quick Liberalism Tutorial:
Lesson #1: Democrats do not represent liberalism.
Lesson #2: Democrats are, for the most part, spineless moderate-leftists who do or say anything to get elected, even if it means adopting the worst traits of their Republican counterparts.
This usually equates to one party pretending to be two, as demonstrated in the 2000 election in which candidates Al Gore and George Bush agreed on numerous key issues.
Lesson #3: That having been said, I for one have never seen a "Communist-leaning Democrat" (unless a "Communist-leaning Democrat" is any Democrat who believes that not every single aspect of our society should be privately owned - which I would assume means most every Democrat in existence; I don't know of any Democrats who believe we should privatize the road system, for example) - if this is the type of thing they say on Fox, I suggest watching another news channel.

Summary: Democrats do not represent liberalism. "Democrat" and "liberal" are not synonyms. The causes I mentioned are liberal causes, not Democratic ones.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, considering how many millions his son lost by no longer being able to administrate the food for palaces program I'm shocked that this is his conclusion.[/quote]

Nice way to avoid arguing whether the war was illegal or not.[/quote]

Maybe you missed the US house and senate voting to invade....
 
Actually, they voted to grant Bush the authority to invade. A subtle distinction, I know, one requiring an IQ of at least 70 to understand. Which is, of course, why Bush completely missed it. :twisted:
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, considering how many millions his son lost by no longer being able to administrate the food for palaces program I'm shocked that this is his conclusion.[/quote]

Nice way to avoid arguing whether the war was illegal or not.[/quote]

Maybe you missed the US house and senate voting to invade....[/quote]

Maybe you missed Annan calling it illegal by international standards, not US ones.
 
Maybe the shit the UN does is illegal? Wow there's a fucking thought!

Since when did we have to follow every damn thing the other countries say? I really want to lisssen to France when I'm trying to protect the country? The "President" of France has been best friends with the evil Saddam since 1973, so they would be the last I would lissen to.

Plus does anyone else follow "international laws" aka "joke laws"? No, they are meant to make the USA look bad and do everything they can to make us look evil. Hell Sweden made that "World Court" with USA haters as judges so they can have trains for our soldiers, it's a fucking joke. Maybe they should get a court ready for the fucking killer of millions called Saddam.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, considering how many millions his son lost by no longer being able to administrate the food for palaces program I'm shocked that this is his conclusion.[/quote]

Nice way to avoid arguing whether the war was illegal or not.[/quote]

Maybe you missed the US house and senate voting to invade....[/quote]

Maybe you missed Annan calling it illegal by international standards, not US ones.[/quote]

And? The relevance of international standards?

I don't even have to address the legal authority found in the 17 UN Resolutions.

I have both Houses voting for it.

Oh thats right you don't understand the law.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, considering how many millions his son lost by no longer being able to administrate the food for palaces program I'm shocked that this is his conclusion.[/quote]

Nice way to avoid arguing whether the war was illegal or not.[/quote]

Maybe you missed the US house and senate voting to invade....[/quote]

Maybe you missed Annan calling it illegal by international standards, not US ones.[/quote]

And? The relevance of international standards?

I don't even have to address the legal authority found in the 17 UN Resolutions.

I have both Houses voting for it.

Oh thats right you don't understand the law.

CTL[/quote]

The relevance is you were implying that since Congress voted for the use of force, the war is legal. I just pointed out that Annan was not talking about US law.

If the UN resolutions authorize the US (as opposed to a UN force) to invade Iraq, I am unaware of it. Please point it out.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:[/quote]

Can you link to some sort of proof that Saddam was harboring terrorists before we invaded? All I have seen of proof is your claim that there were terrorists in Iraq. I understand the difference between having and harboring; I didn't think that you did.
 
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']Quick Liberalism Tutorial:
Lesson #1: Democrats do not represent liberalism.
Lesson #2: Democrats are, for the most part, spineless moderate-leftists who do or say anything to get elected, even if it means adopting the worst traits of their Republican counterparts.
This usually equates to one party pretending to be two, as demonstrated in the 2000 election in which candidates Al Gore and George Bush agreed on numerous key issues.
Lesson #3: That having been said, I for one have never seen a "Communist-leaning Democrat" (unless a "Communist-leaning Democrat" is any Democrat who believes that not every single aspect of our society should be privately owned - which I would assume means most every Democrat in existence; I don't know of any Democrats who believe we should privatize the road system, for example) - if this is the type of thing they say on Fox, I suggest watching another news channel.

Summary: Democrats do not represent liberalism. "Democrat" and "liberal" are not synonyms. The causes I mentioned are liberal causes, not Democratic ones.[/quote]

I stand corrected, you actually do know the difference. Perhaps I simply mistook contempt for Bush as an alliegence to the DNC. If I am mistaken, I do apologize. However, I think we all know that the Democrats DO attempt to take credit for these causes and have usurped the 'liberal' brand as a badge of honor. While at the same time, republicans use it as an insult, further degrading it's original connotation.
 
Hey CTLesq, let me get this straight - supporting international law is a good thing when it's Iraq defying 17 UN resoultions, but it's a bad thing when Annan says the war was illegal?

I just want you to clear that up for me.
 
So let me get this straight people, you want the UN who took billions into there pockets in the "Oil for "Food"" thing to run the USA.

I thought we were a free and seperate country for a reason, but I guess I'm wrong. Are we voting for president in November or the leader of the UN?
 
[quote name='David85']So let me get this straight people, you want the UN who took billions into there pockets in the "Oil for "Food"" thing to run the USA.

I thought we were a free and seperate country for a reason, but I guess I'm wrong. Are we voting for president in November or the leader of the UN?[/quote]

Don't get your panties in a wad. Nobody wants the UN to run the US despite what all the rabid conservatives will tell you. I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of supporting international law in one case but not the other.
 
The UN was created for a reason, too. The US was a major factor in creating the UN (after an earlier failed attempt - The League of Nations). Reread your history books from 1900-1960 if you can't remember why.
 
Yes I know anout the "League of Nations", but the UN is a failure too. It works ok for getting health supplies around, but as the oil for food thing proved it can't even do that right.

The UN has no power, they have no force, that's why no one listens to them.

NATO had a reason, and has a force and it works well, the UN doesn't and is completelt pointless.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking']Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:[/quote]

Do you have any idea about the history between al Qaeda and Saddam? You realize, of course, that al Qaeda wanted nothing more than to overthrow Saddam and establish a religious government, right? And Saddam knew that.[/quote]


FOR THE LAST TIME, AL-QUEDA IS NOT THE ONLY TERRORIST GROUP IN THE WORLD[/quote]

Then name one terrorist group in Iraq when Saddam was in power.[/quote]

Since nobody responded to this yet, off the top of my head Ansar al-Islam.
 
[quote name='elprincipe'][quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking']Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:[/quote]

Do you have any idea about the history between al Qaeda and Saddam? You realize, of course, that al Qaeda wanted nothing more than to overthrow Saddam and establish a religious government, right? And Saddam knew that.[/quote]


FOR THE LAST TIME, AL-QUEDA IS NOT THE ONLY TERRORIST GROUP IN THE WORLD[/quote]

Then name one terrorist group in Iraq when Saddam was in power.[/quote]

Since nobody responded to this yet, off the top of my head Ansar al-Islam.[/quote]

Lest you also forget the other terrorists in Iraq prior to the invasion:

Adbul Nidal:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/08/19/mideast.nidal/

Or: Abu Abbas

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/16/1050172623149.html?oneclick=true
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']The relevance is you were implying that since Congress voted for the use of force, the war is legal. I just pointed out that Annan was not talking about US law.

If the UN resolutions authorize the US (as opposed to a UN force) to invade Iraq, I am unaware of it. Please point it out.[/quote]

I'd like to thank the WSJ for sparing me the aggravation of having to do this myself.

Kofi's Law

610 words
20 September 2004
The Wall Street Journal
A20
English
(Copyright (c) 2004, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)

Last we checked, U.N. chief Kofi Annan was promising to help the U.S. rebuild Iraq. But pressed by a BBC interviewer last week, the Secretary-General stated flat out that the liberation of Iraq was "illegal" and a violation of the U.N. Charter. He had already opined that "there should have been a second resolution" authorizing the invasion, and that "I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time."

These thoughts could certainly stand a little parsing. Mr. Annan seems to be saying that the only way force can be used legitimately in the modern world is with the unanimous permission of the U.N. Security Council. So perhaps we should remind him of some recent history.

For example, there was that splendidly legitimate U.N. operation in Bosnia, where its blue-helmeted peacekeepers watched with indifference as Serbian soldiers rounded up for slaughter thousands of Muslim men in the so-called U.N. "safe haven" of Srebrenica. Or Rwanda in 1994, where Mr. Annan -- then head of the U.N. peacekeeping office -- shrugged off panicked warning calls from the U.N. commander on the ground, thereby allowing the slaughter of 800,000.

And if liberating Iraq was wrong, Mr. Annan must also believe it was wrong for NATO to have intervened in Kosovo, where Russia once again prevented Security Council unanimity. How about the recent French intervention in the Ivory Coast, which the Security Council got around to blessing only after it was a fait accompli? And notwithstanding the latest U.N. promises, what if Gallic and Chinese oil interests block international action in Sudan, allowing the continued attacks on Darfurians? It would appear, on this evidence, that Security Council unanimity isn't exactly the gold standard of legitimacy, much less of morality.

And what's this business about a "second" Iraq resolution? U.N. Resolution 1441 was the 17th resolution demanding that Saddam verifiably disarm, behave with some modicum of respect for the rights of his own citizens, and otherwise comply with conditions of the ceasefire following the end of the 1991 Gulf War. From firing at American planes patrolling the no-fly zones, to widespread sanctions busting, to a banned long-range missile program, the Iraqi dictator was in undeniable breach in March 2003 of the terms under which his regime was spared back in 1991. In other words, there was never any legal need for even Resolution 1441.

This is the same Kofi Annan, by the way, who said after saving Saddam from a U.S. armada in 1998 that "You can do a lot with diplomacy, but with diplomacy backed up by force you can get a lot more done." But in large part thanks to such diplomatic interventions by Mr. Annan on Saddam's behalf, by 2003 the dictator apparently believed that this "force" was always going to be an illusion. He thought he'd slip the noose one more time.

The Secretary-General's latest posturing is far from harmless. The U.N. has been given the lead role in organizing the elections in Iraq scheduled for January. But Mr. Annan's "illegal" comments, which have been replayed across the Arab world, have given an added feeling of legitimacy to every jihadist hoping to disrupt the vote.

His comments also suggest that Mr. Annan belongs in the same category as France and Russia in never intending the "serious consequences" threatened by Resolution 1441. We wonder: Could the corrupt Oil for Food program and all the revenues it generated for the U.N. have anything to do with it?

Additionally:

Kofi Votes Kerry

By Caspar Weinberger
555 words
20 September 2004
The Wall Street Journal
A20
English
(Copyright (c) 2004, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)

For those who, like John Kerry, believe that the proper foreign-policy course in Iraq and elsewhere is to turn everything over to the United Nations, events of the last week provided some highly dubious fodder:

-- First, despite Colin Powell's correct description of the killings of African Muslims in the Darfur region of Sudan as "genocide," the U.N. did not leap into action.

In fact, the Security Council was mired in a semantic argument as to whether a U.S.-proposed resolution could be interpreted as threatening sanctions against Sudan. The first answer was "no" to the resolution. China, mindful of its trade with Sudan, refused the original wording. Bear in mind that this is the same Council which, in the midst of the Darfur atrocities, reappointed Sudan to the U.N. Human Rights Commission. Sudan's term on this oddly named commission runs until 2007, so Darfur should not raise its expectations of U.N. help anytime soon, despite the fact that the Security Council finally did pass a resolution "threatening" oil sanctions.

-- Second, the absurdity of the Kerry solution of turning over to the U.N. matters too difficult for his political staff to handle was fully unveiled last week when Kofi Annan, secretary general of the U.N., unilaterally declared that U.S. actions in freeing the world of Saddam Hussein were "illegal."

I do not recall any vote in the Security Council, even assuming it could pull itself together, that we had been behaving illegally in Iraq. Nor does Mr. Annan mention any U.N. vote, or any other authority, for his statement to the BBC that, from the "from our point of view and from the Charter point of view, was illegal." Then Mr. Annan, apparently determined to be as unhelpful as possible, added that it was "unlikely that Iraq would be able to hold credible elections as planned in January 2005, if security conditions continue as they are."

Iraq is indeed less likely to have credible elections if the head of the U.N. brands the actions that made possible any elections as "illegal."

The key fact here is not that Mr. Annan is quite wrong about U.S. actions, "illegal" or not, under the U.N. Charter. He might be better employed reading the Charter, especially that bit in Art. 51 about member-states having the right to defend themselves. He might also recall the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. The key fact to remember is that Mr. Annan heads an organization to which presidential candidate Kerry would, if he means what he says, turn over management of such difficult problems as defending ourselves or deterring more terrorist attacks.

Those voters who declare themselves to poll-takers as "undecided" or "for Kerry" should keep in mind our country's future safety and security -- and keep in mind as well the Kerry proposal to turn over our ability to realize that future safety and security to the U.N., whose head has apparently already decided that what we are doing is "illegal." Put another way, if Kofi Annan had a vote on Nov. 2, which way would he vote? Now ask yourself the simple follow-up question, Which way should I vote?

---

Mr. Weinberger was secretary of defense under President Reagan.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']He might be better employed reading the Charter, especially that bit in Art. 51 about member-states having the right to defend themselves. He might also recall the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. [/quote]

Iraq was not involved in the 9/11 attacks; everyone nows agrees on this. We aren't defending ourselves (from what would we be defending ourselves over there? Saddam didn't have any weapons.)

I don't think turning over the Iraq operation to the UN is a good idea; we've fucked it up too bad at this point. However, getting some international help would be nice. Bush alientated pretty much all of our allies, forcing us to try to get out of this mess virtually alone.
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='elprincipe'][quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='E-Z-B'][quote name='Scrubking']Yes, there are. So I guess the US is also harboring terrorists, since there are terrorists here? That's basically the argument you made against Iraq.

No, that is the argument that you are making up. Do I really need to explain the difference between having and harboring? Sadddam did both, we only had them and found out too late. :roll:[/quote]

Do you have any idea about the history between al Qaeda and Saddam? You realize, of course, that al Qaeda wanted nothing more than to overthrow Saddam and establish a religious government, right? And Saddam knew that.[/quote]


FOR THE LAST TIME, AL-QUEDA IS NOT THE ONLY TERRORIST GROUP IN THE WORLD[/quote]

Then name one terrorist group in Iraq when Saddam was in power.[/quote]

Since nobody responded to this yet, off the top of my head Ansar al-Islam.[/quote]

Lest you also forget the other terrorists in Iraq prior to the invasion:

Adbul Nidal:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/08/19/mideast.nidal/

Or: Abu Abbas

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/16/1050172623149.html?oneclick=true[/quote]

I think the issue was terrorist GROUP, as Scrubking was harping on.

Hamas?
Al Martyr Brigrades?
Abu Sayyeff?

Oh, and Ansar al-Islam are Kurds. They're the ones that Saddam tied to wipe out.
 
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