Let's Celebrate the "Good Old Days" When Terrorists Were Just a Nuisan

PittsburghAfterDark

CAGiversary!
Islamic Terror Attacks

A summary of Kerry's "nuisances" and the kind of stuff we should you know... just get used to because terrorism is like drugs or prostitution and you'll never get rid of it completely.

1968 June 5 - U.S. presidential candidate Robert Kennedy murdered by Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan, in Los Angeles, which causes further terrorist attacks, as Arab terrorist groups demanded his release.

1969 Feb. 18 - Boeing 707 attacked at Zurich, Switzerland, killing the pilot and 3 passengers. Aug. 29 - TWA 707 hijacked from Rome to Damascus, released with only wounded. Nov. 27- El Al office in Athens, Greece attacked. Innocent bystanders killed.

1970 Feb. 21 - Swiss airliner blown up over Switzerland, killing all 47 people on board. Feb. 23 - PLO terrorists open fire on a busload of Christian pilgrims killing 1 and wounding 2 Americans. April 21- Bomb explodes aboard a Philippines airliner. All 36 aboard are killed. Sept. 6 - "Skyjack Sunday" in Jordan. 3 planes (TWA, Swissair, Pan Am) en route to the U.S. hijacked, 400+ hostages, planes blown up in Jordan, Governments agreed to PFLP's demands, released terrorists from jails and hostages released. Sept. 14 - The PFLP hijacked TWA flight to Ammon, 4 Americans injured.

1971 Nov. 28 - Jordanian prime minister Tal killed by terrorists at the Sheraton Hotel in Cairo, Egypt. Dec. - Jordanian ambassador to London, England is shot by hit squad.

1972 Jan. 26 - Bomb explodes on a Yugoslav plane killing all but one passenger. May 30 - Ben Gurion Airport, Israel attack killed 26, and wounded 78 U.S. citizens from Puerto Rico. Sept. 5 - Palestinian terrorists led by Yasir Arafat seize 11 athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich, Germany, 9 hostages and 5 terrorists killed, plus David Berger from Cleveland.

1973 March 2 - Khartoum, Sudan. Cleo Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador, and George C. Moore, U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy. Aug. 5 - Suicide squad attacks Athens airport, Greece, killing 3 civilians and injuring 55. Dec. 17 - Bomb explodes at Pan Am office at Rome, Italy killing 32 and injuring 50+. The terrorists take 7 Italian policemen hostage and hijack an aircraft to Athens, Greece, killing one of them.

1974 March 1 - Diplomats taken hostage from Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan, 2 that are killed are American's. April 11 - Kiryat Shmona Massacre at an apartment building killing 18 people, 9 were children. Sept. 8 - Athens, Greece. TWA Flight 841 exploded from bomb in cargo hold, all 88 passengers killed, including 32-year-old Steven Lowe, an American citizen. Nov. 23 - British DC-10 hijacked at Dubai, UAE, flown to Tunisia where a German passenger was killed.

1975 Jan. 19 - Arab terrorists attack Orly airport, Paris, France, seizing 10 hostages from a bathroom. French provided the terrorists with a plane to fly them to safety in Baghdad, Iraq. Sept. 30 - Hungarian airplane explodes killing all 64 persons on board. Dec. 21 - Carlos "The Jackal" holds 11 oil ministers and 59 civilians hostage during the OPEC meeting in Vienna, Austria. Flew to Algeria, got $300,000,000 in ransom money, Carlos and his Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine terrorists escape.

1976 Jan. 1 - 82 innocent travelers are killed aboard a Lebanese plane. June 27 - Air France airliner hijacked, forced to fly to Uganda. Some 258 passengers and crew are held hostage. 3 passengers killed. July 4th, Israeli commandos rescue the remaining hostages. Aug. 11 - Terrorists attack Istanbul airport, Turkey, killing 4 civilians (1 from U.S.) and injuring 20. Dec. 4 - Terrorists occupied the Indonesian Embassy in The Hague, Netherlands, 1 official killed. Dec. 14 - Passenger train hijacked and passengers were kept hostage, 3 were killed.

1977 Jan. 1 - F.E. Melov U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, kidnapped and later killed in Beirut. Oct. 13 - Palestinian terrorists hijack a Lufthansa Flight 181 Boeing 737 and order it to fly around a number of Middle East destinations for four days, pilot is killed by the terrorists, 90 hostages rescued.

1978 March 11 - Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Ribicoff, among 38 people shot to death by terrorists on a beach near Tel Aviv. June 2 - A bomb kills 2 people at the CHOGM meeting in Sydney Australia.

1979 July 29 - Terrorist bombs two railway stations in Madrid, kills 7. Nov. 4 - Terrorists seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. 13 freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981 - 444 days - at the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.

1980 April 30 - Terrorists took over the Iranian Embassy in London, holding 26 hostages, 2 of whom died on May 5th after being tortured. Much of the embassy was destroyed by fire. 1981 April 19 - 13 people killed, 177 injured in a terrorist attack in Davao Philippines. May 13 - Pope John Paul II seriously wounded in assassination attempt in Rome, Italy, by terrorist Mehmet Ali Agca. Oct. 6 - Egyptian President Anwar Sadat machine gunned dead by Islamic Jihad in Cairo for working for peace. 7 others killed, 28 wounded. The assassins are later executed.

1982 Beginning of the 8 years of terrorism in Lebanon. July 19 - David Dodge, President of the American University in Beirut kidnapped, spends one year in captivity. Aug. 19 - Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed along with 6 others when the PLO bombed a Kosher restaurant in Paris, France. Sept. 14 - Lebanon's President Gemayel and 26 others assassinated by a massive car bomb in Beirut.

1983 Mar. 16 - 5 Marines wounded in hand grenade attack on Beirut International Airport. April 18 - CIA's Middle East Director, and 83 others are killed, 120 injured in truck bomb on the US Embassy in Lebanon. Sept. 29 - Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, explodes killing all 166 aboard. Oct. 23 - Simultaneous suicide truck bombs in Lebanon: 1st crashed into lobby of US Marine Corps Headquarters, 241 Marines dead, 82 seriously injured - and 2nd was French compounds killing 58 paratroopers. Dec. 12 - US Embassy in Kuwait targeted to destroy the building with a truck bomb, attack foiled by guards and the device killed 5 people and injured 80.

1984 Jan. 18 - Malcolm Kerr, President of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two Hizballah gunmen. Mar. 8 - Rev. Weir and wife kidnapped in Lebanon and held for 16 months. Mar. 9 - Car bomb kills 80 (22 Americans) and wounds more than 200 civilians when it drove past the checkpoint at the U.S. Embassy in Awkar. Mar. 16 - Hizballah kidnapped, tortured and killed William Buckley, an officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Apr. 12 - Hizballah bombed restaurant adjacent to US Air Force base in Torregon Spain, 18 servicemen killed and 83 Americans wounded. Sept. 20- US embassy in the Beirut is bombed - 2 servicemen and 23 employees are killed, 21 Americans injured including the U.S. and British Ambassadors. 50+ Lebanese were injured. Dec. 4 - Terrorists hijacked Kuwait Airlines Flight 221 and demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of some members, serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets. 2 Americans murdered.

1985 March 16 - US journalist Terry Anderson kidnapped in Lebanon, finally released in Dec. 1991 - 6 years later. April 5 - Bomb explodes outside Hezbollah headquarters in Beirut killing 80 people. April 12 - Bombing of U.S. soldier's favorite restaurant in Madrid, killing 18 and injuring 82. June 14 - TWA Boeing 727 Flight 847 hijacked en route to Rome, 8 crew and 145 passengers were held for 17 days, U.S. Navy diver was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the hostages were released after the US pressured to release 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners. Sept. 30 - Four Soviet diplomats kidnapped in Lebanon, 1 killed but other three released unharmed after a relative of the terrorist leader's was kidnapped and killed by the Soviet KGB. Oct. 7 - Terrorists seize the Italian cruise liner, Achille Lauro, during a cruise in the Mediterranean, taking more than 700 people hostage for 3 days. Disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, was murdered in front of other hostages by throwing him in the ocean, before the Egyptian Government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages' freedom. Nov. 23 - 98 passengers and crew of an Egyptair Flight 648 are held hostage by Palestinian terrorists in Malta. 5 passengers shot, 2 died, later 57 additional passengers killed when the terrorists set off explosives in the aircraft. Dec. 27 - Suicide grenade and gun attacks in passenger terminals at Rome and Vienna, Italy airports results in 16 people being killed plus 5 Americans and more than 100 civilians injured.

1986 March 30-April 2nd - A bomb exploded on a TWA flight 840 from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed 4 U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, 1 infant, and 9 injured, although the plane safely landed. April 6 - An explosion at the "La Belle" nightclub in Berlin, U.S. soldiers' hang-out, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, including 79 U.S. soldiers. Sept. 5 - Pan Am Boeing 747 Flight 73 en route to Frankfurt and on to New York hijacked by Palestinian terrorists, with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans, 22 hostages killed, 127 wounded. Sept. 9 - Hezballah kidnapped Frank Reed, President of American University in Beirut, and held for 44 months, and Joseph Cicippio, and Edward Tracy who were each held for 5 years. Sept. 17 - A 10-month series of terrorist bomb attacks in France begins. One bomb in Paris kills 5 and injures 52.

1987 A car bomb exploded outside the back gate of the U.S. Embassy in Rome and rockets were fired at the compound from across the street. One passerby was injured in the attacks.

1988 Feb. 5 - US Marine Corps Lt. Colonel Higgens, Chief of the U.N. Truce Force kidnapped and murdered by Hezbollah. March 16 - 4000+ Kurdish civilian bodies found after Saddam Hussein ordered nerve gas attack (weapon of mass destruction) in northern Iraq, after they revolted against his rule from Baghdad. 1.5 million relocated, 200,000 disappeared. April 5 - 122 held hostage after a Kuwaiti Boeing 747 was hijacked and diverted to Iran, then Cyprus. Kuwait refused requests by hijackers to release 17 convicted terrorists. After 15 days the hijackers were granted asylum in Algeria and released their hostages. June 26 - US Naval Attaché killed in Athens, Greece. Dec. 21 - Pan Am Flight 103 - Boeing 747 from London to New York, blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb. All 259 passengers and 11 on the ground were killed, including 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel.

1989 June 12 - A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff. Sept. 19 - 171 passengers killed when French UTA flight 772 explodes in mid-air over Niger. October 11 - Izmir, Turkey. A bomb went off outside a U.S. military PX.

1990 Feb. - Attack of tour bus in Egypt killing 11.

1991 Feb. 7 - Incirlik Air Base, Turkey, U.S. civilian contractor shot as he was getting into his car. Oct. 28 - Ankara, Turkey. Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack. Oct. 28 - Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force Sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul. Nov. 8 - Bomb destroyed part of the American University in Beirut, killing 1 and wounding 12.

1992 March 17 - Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, destroyed by bomb killing 29, injuring 60. Hotel in Yemen bombed and U.S. servicemen killed, Operation Restore Hope.

1993 Jan. 25, Virginia, U.S.A. A Pakistani terrorist opened fire with AK-47 on CIA employees standing outside the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and 3 others wounded. Feb. 26 - World Trade Center in New York badly damaged by a massive bomb by Islamic terrorists. The van bomb was planted in an underground garage and left 6 people dead and 1042 injured and almost ½ billion dollars in damage. Feb. 26 - A bomb exploded inside a café in downtown Cairo killing 3, 18 wounded, 2 U.S. citizens. July 5 - In 8 separate incidents, 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey were kidnapped, including U.S. citizen Starger, after weeks in captivity, they were released. Oct - Killing of U. S. soldiers in Somalia.

1994 July 18 - 86 civilians killed and 300 wounded in bomb attack on Jewish social centre in Buneos Aires, Argentina. July 26 - Israeli Embassy in London is car-bombed, wounding 20. Air France Flight 8969 is hijacked to crash the plane in Paris but didn't succeed. A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman.

1995 Jan. 22 - Islamic Jihad militants blow themselves up amid a group of soldiers near Netanya, killing 21. Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop in a Manila, Philippines apartment, in which Osama bin Laden was planning to blow up 12 planes as they flew to the U.S., plus kill the Pope. March 8 - Attack on US Diplomats in Pakistan. April 9 - Islamic Jihad suicide bomber attacks military convoy in Gaza, killing 7 soldiers and an American tourist. May 5 - Five foreign oil workers murdered by Islamic GIA terrorists in Algeria. June 26 - Assassination attempt made against Egyptian President Honsi Mubarak by Islamic radicals who ambushed his motorcade. July 4 - Six tourists, including two U.S. citizens taken hostage in Kashmir, India. Terrorists demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. On Aug. 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group's demands were not met. They were not and all other hostages were killed in 1996 by the terrorists. July 25 - Islamic terrorists explode bomb in metro station in Paris, France, killing 7 people and injuring 84. Nov. 13 - Car bomb exploded at Riyadh headquarters of the National Guard, killing 7, 5 of them U.S. citizens, and wounding 42. Nov. 19 - Islamic radicals plant bomb in Egyptian embassy in Pakistan killing 17. Dec. 11 - 15 concurrent car bombings in Algiers kill 15 civilians and over 200 injured.

1996 Feb. 11 - Terrorists explode car bomb in Algiers killing 17. The following month, 2 more killed in another bomb and 10 are killed in a train ambush in western Algeria. Feb. 25 - A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including 3 U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them another two U.S. citizens. April 19 - Eighteen Greek tourists were gunned down near the historic Pyramids in Egypt by Islamic terrorists aiming to destroy the country's tourist industry. May - Osama bin Laden unites the Islamic Fundamentalists worldwide in their Jihad against Jews and Western Gentiles, such as al-Qaeda, Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah, Hamas, Mujahideen, using the Taliban's organization to help fund the operations. June 25 - Terrorists explode a truck bomb next to a USAF Khobar Towers housing facility at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American servicemen and 515 injured including 240 U.S. personnel. Islamic terrorists attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 71 people, most of them vacationers. Aug. 26 - Sudan Airways A310 Airbus airliner hijacked en route to Jordan and diverted to England. British authorities negotiate with hijackers who release all the 13 crew and 180 passengers unharmed. Dec. 3 - A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen. A terrorist opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the US, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. Dec. 23 - A car bomb in the Algerian capital, Algiers, kills three and injures 70 people in cafe near the port. Again a week later, a car bomb kills 28 people and injures 35 people. 3rd car bomb in the past two weeks, killing additional 13 people and injuring more than 250.

1997 Jan. 2 - Major cities worldwide and U.S. get letter bombs with Egyptian postmarks at newspaper bureaus in DC, New York, London, Riyadh, S.A., and Leavenworth, KN. Experts defused all but the 1 in London, injuring 2. Jan. 7 to 21st - Islamic terrorist rampage during these 14 days with car bombs and beheadings in Algiers, total of 238 dead, 139 wounded. Feb. 23 - Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing 1 and wounding over a dozen visitors before turning the gun on himself. March 7 - Two killed in bus bomb attack in Beijing, China. April - Terrorists behead innocent civilians this whole month with a total of 272 murdered and over 100 injured. Knives, axes and chainsaws were used and many of the bodies were burned while still alive. Sept. 18- 9 German tourists killed when Muslims fire bombed bus in Cairo, Egypt. Nov. 12 - 2 Terrorists shot to death 4 U.S. auditors of a Texas petroleum company and their driver at a Sheraton Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan. Nov. 17 - 58 western tourists killed and 30 injured in gun attack at historic monuments in southern Egypt. 6 of the Islamic terrorists are killed in shoot out with police.

1998 Jan. 15 - U.S. Embassy bombing in Peru. Published February 23, 1998 - Statement signed by many Islamic Jihad Leaders from most Muslim countries, first by Sheikh Osamah Bin-Ladin: "...In compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can, in any country in which it is possible... We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded, to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. Unless you go forth, Allah will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." Aug. 7 - Simultaneous bombs in US Embassies in Kenya, and Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive attacks. In the Nairobi attack 292 people were killed, including 12 Americans, and 5,000 injured. 10 people were killed and 86 injured in Tanzania incident for a total of 302 dead, 5086 injured within an hour. Aug. 25 - 3 people killed and 25 injured in bomb attack on Planet Hollywood restaurant in Cape Town, South Africa. Dec. 28 - 16 Western tourists kidnapped, 12 Britons, 2 U.S. citizens, and 2 Australians on the main road to Aden, Yemen. Four victims were killed during a rescue attempt the next day.

1999 Aug. 31 to Sept. 22nd - Russian apartment bombings kill almost 300 and injured 100. Oct. 31 - EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast of Massachusetts, killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans. Nov. 12 - Six rockets were fired at the U.S. and U.N. offices in Islamabad, Pakistan. Dec. - Millennium terror plots foiled as customs agents arrest a man smuggling in explosives. Plan to attack Los Angeles airport and other sites intercepted by CIA. Also Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US tourists in Jordan, pick up 28 suspects. Indian Airlines Flight 814, en route to Delhi, India is hijacked, 1 passenger is killed. After negotiations with the Taliban, the hostages are released.

2000 The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks. Oct. 12 - A suicide boat exploded next to the U.S.S. Cole (guided-missile destroyer), blowing a hole 40 feet in diameter, killing 17 American sailors and injuring 39.

2001 Feb. 5 - A bomb blast in Moscow's Byelorusskaya subway station injures 15 people. March 28 - Bombing at bus stop in Yemen. U.S. citizens injured including a 15 year old boy from NY. Aug. 9 - Bombing at Sbarro's pizzeria, killed 15 and wounded over 90, 2 of which were U.S. citizens. Sept. 11 - 4 U.S. jetliners hijacked and forced to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon like missiles, and 1 crashed in Pennsylvania on the way to the Capital Building in D.C. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, 2602 people were killed on the ground, plus 343 firefighters, and 184 people at the Pentagon. Almost 5000 injured, 500 rescue workers now have respiratory ailments. 7 buildings collapsed in NY and 23 damaged, plus 4 subway stations. Paris embassy terrorist attack plot foiled Oct. 27 - Darya Khanah bombed Dec. 13 - Terrorist attack on Indian Parliament. Dec. - Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb.

2002 Jan. 27 - A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in Jerusalem killing 1 Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and both teenage daughters. Sokolow had survived the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed. Feb. 16 - Bombing in Karnei Shomron, in a group of teenage girls from the U.S. 2 killed, 4 wounded. Singapore embassies terrorist attack plot foiled March 24 - 20 people die and 93 injured in 3 bomb attacks on Russian towns near the border of Chechnya. April - Explosion at most historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, most are German tourists. May 9 - A bomb exploded in Dagestan kills 42 people and injures 130 during Victory Day festivities. French oil tanker Limburg bombing off Yemen Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl Oct. 12 - Bali car bombing of holidaymakers in a nightclub kills 202 Australian citizens. Zamboanga bombings in the Philippines Oct. 19 - Car bomb explodes at McDonald's restaurant in Moscow, killing 1 person and wounding 5. Oct. 23 - Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue 3 days later. Nov. - Kenyan hotel suicide bombing kills 16 safari tourists. Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait

2003 May 12 - attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. May - Suicide bombers killed 34 (8 U.S. citizens), at housing compounds for westerners in Riyadh, S.A. May 14 - 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya. May - 4 bombs killed 33 tourists (8 U.S. citizens) in Casablanca, Morocco. July 5 - 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow. Aug. 1 - An explosion at the Russian hospital in North Ossetia kills 50 people and injures 76. Aug. - Suicide car bomb killed 12 and injured over 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia. Sept. 3- A bomb on a passenger train in southern Russia kills 7 people and injures 90. Oct. 15 - Bombing of US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip: 3 U.S. citizens killed. Nov. - Explosions rocked a Riyadh, S.A. housing compound, killing 17. Nov. - Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul kills 26, injures 22. Dec. 5 - Suicide bombers kill 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia. Dec. 9 - A blast in the center of Moscow kills 6 people and wounds at least 11. Bombings of United States expatriate housing compounds in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160. Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were "Western and Jewish". Istanbul Bombings: Within five days, truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey

2004 109 Kurds are killed in 2 suicide bombings in Arbil, Iraq Feb. 6 - Bomb on Moscow subway kills 41. Feb. 27 - Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116. March 11 - 10 Simultaneous bombings of busiest rush hour commuter trains in Madrid, Spain kills 202 people and injures more than 1,400. April 21 - Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5. May 29 - Al-Khobar massacres--Islamic terrorists kill 22 people and one American at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia. June 11 - Terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson, Jr. in Riyadh. Aug. 24 - Russian airplane bombings kill 90. August 31 A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33. Sept. 1 - 3 Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia results in over 330 dead. Sept. 9 - Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing 9 people. Oct. 7 - 3 car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula hotel, killing 32 and wounding 114, most of them tourists.

HAITI: More of the Same Promised

October 26, 2004: Political violence has left about 55 dead in the past two weeks. The government is complaining that the UN has sent too few peacekeepers, and that the international community does not appear eager to get involved in pacifying Haiti. A look at Haiti's history would reveal why. For two centuries, Haiti has seen one coup, and dictator, after another. A lack of an honest, and popularly elected, government has resulted in corruption, economic decline and what Haiti is today. The current government announced that it would probably restore the army, which, over the years, has been responsible for over 30 coups, and much grief.

October 24, 2004: UN peacekeepers are joining with police in raiding neighborhoods where pro-Aristide gangs have taken up residence. A police officer was killed during today's raids.

October 21, 2004: The U.S. has agreed to lift its 13 year arms embargo against Haiti, which will allow American arms to be sent in to equip the new police force. Meanwhile, gunrunners are sneaking weapons into Haiti, and some of them are then showing up in the nearby island of Jamaica. The gunrunners are from South America, and moved into the area because of rising demand for weapons.

October 20, 2004: Gunfire could be heard in the capital, as police try to arrest armed members of pro-Aristide gangs. Non-political gangs are also using the unrest as an opportunity to loot businesses and rob anyone they come across. The unrest is making it impossible to move food aid out of the port, and some ships are refusing to land their food cargos at all.
 
It's so sad how the GOP influences the gullible and weak-minded.

Kerry said to fight the war on terror, terrorism must be reduced to a "nuisance" level. If Americans live in constant fear of terrorism, then the terrorists have already won.

But since I'm not a republican, the truth doesn't matter to you.
 
The hazard of "fear" is where you're too afraid to do anything about it. A little fear is not a bad thing. Fear keeps people alive. Incapicating fear is a bad thing. Fear that motivates you to protect yourself, or remove the threat, is good fear.
I'm afraid of being robbed, or carjacked, or my son getting kidnapped. So I take actions to try to prevent those things, and use that fear as a motivator, since it's not at an incapicating level.
People without fear are foolish. Fear notifies you there's danger. Terrorists are dangerous.
 
What if the terrorists make americans afraid to fly now? Or take trains. Or subways. How about instead of going to the mall or stadium to see a game, you decide to stay home? That's when we've lost the war on terror.
 
I somewhat agree.
If there's a credible threat or a higher risk on a certain day, in a certain place, etc, then it would be foolish to go to that place. that's just minimizing your risk, and that's a good thing. I don't go golfing when there's a bad lightning storm. I probably won't get hit by lightning, but I'm taking precautions. Now, if I *never* go golfing, because I *might* at any time get hit by lightning, I agree, that means the Lightning Has Won. We're not at that point, and we haven't been except immediately after 9/11.
But being aware of what the enemy has done in the recent past is definitely akin to checking the weather to see if there's going to be a lightning storm today.
 
Chronology of Christian against Jews

•In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]

•17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

•The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

•First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12,000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

•Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

•Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40] •Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

•1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

•1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

•1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

•1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

•1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

•1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

•1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.

•1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]

1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]


Lets get rid of Christians too PAD, they are nothing but murders too!! Hell lets get rid of everyone because everyone's history has a dark past. People like u forget the past, which is why people are doomed to repeat it
 
Obviously, you can't wipe out terrorism completely. If one guy makes a homemade bomb and uses it to blow himself up with one other person - that's terrorism. State-sponsored terrorism on the other hand, hopefully that can be wiped out.

One of your examples:
1971 Nov. 28 - Jordanian prime minister Tal killed by terrorists at the Sheraton Hotel in Cairo, Egypt. Dec. - Jordanian ambassador to London, England is shot by hit squad.

So you think we can completely wipe out all murders? Neat!
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']Chronology of Christian against Jews

•In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]

•17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

•The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

•First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12,000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

•Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

•Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40] •Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

•1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

•1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

•1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

•1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

•1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

•1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

•1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.

•1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]

1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]


Lets get rid of Christians too PAD, they are nothing but murders too!! Hell lets get rid of everyone because everyone's history has a dark past. People like u forget the past, which is why people are doomed to repeat it[/quote]

Earth to tard, Earth to tard- come in tard. Who said anything about getting rid of any religious or ethnic group?

Glad you read whatever you want into that list.

Now put on your hockey helmet and get back on the short bus.
 
Not to mention, the most recent thing on that list was 1648.
I'm against all terrorists, whether they be Muslim, Christian, pagan, satanist, Raelian.

Backlash: You're absolutely right, without being an Orwellian society/world, there's no way to absolutely prevent any random psycho terrorist acts [like what's his name, the OKC bombing.] The state-supported ones, the organized groups, the nations harboring and sheltering them--those are valid targets.

Ikohn4ever: Um, what PAD originally posted is the absolute *reverse* of 'forgetting the past.' And you're the first person to bring up religion in this thread; what do you have against Christians? Or are you stereotyping, which Democrats don't do in speech, just in practice?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark'][quote name='Ikohn4ever']Chronology of Christian against Jews

•In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]

•17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]

•The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]

•First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12,000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]

•Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]

•Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40] •Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]

•1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]

•1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]

•1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]

•1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]

•1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]

•1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]

•1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.

•1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]

1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]


Lets get rid of Christians too PAD, they are nothing but murders too!! Hell lets get rid of everyone because everyone's history has a dark past. People like u forget the past, which is why people are doomed to repeat it[/quote]

Earth to tard, Earth to tard- come in tard. Who said anything about getting rid of any religious or ethnic group?

Glad you read whatever you want into that list.

Now put on your hockey helmet and get back on the short bus.[/quote]

Funny when u said Islamic Terrorist I thought u were talking about the people who follow islam and are terrorists. I guess u were talking about someone else. This is just another attack on Islam Heres another one of PAD Islam bashing threads. So u were talking about people of a specific religion. U did not talk about terrorists attacks, but chose to focus on a specific religions activities. People tend to forget about Oklahoma City bombing, but that doesnt fit your anti-Islam cause. As for DTCarson I have nothing against Christians, I am just saying those people that do the attacking do not represent the whole group. That is like holding Christians responsible for all the shit mentioned in my OP.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Islamic Terror Attacks
just get used to because terrorism is like drugs or prostitution and you'll never get rid of it completely.
[/quote]

At least we agree on something. I forgot to quote this part in my earlier reply.
 
I have no problem with that.
The way to do that, of course, is to eliminate them. As long as people give in to them, they will continue terrorizing.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']I have no problem with that.
The way to do that, of course, is to eliminate them. As long as people give in to them, they will continue terrorizing.[/quote]

How do you eliminate every terrorist from the world? How do you eliminate a concept?
 
[quote name='dennis_t']How do you eliminate every terrorist from the world? How do you eliminate a concept?[/quote]

You show that the concept doesn't work and there's a better way.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark'][quote name='dennis_t']How do you eliminate every terrorist from the world? How do you eliminate a concept?[/quote]

You show that the concept doesn't work and there's a better way.[/quote]

And how will waging war on a secular nation with no ties to terrorism do that? Especially given that were free elections to be held in Iraq today, a fundamentalist Muslim government would be elected, one probably more inclined to support terror against an invading country -- e.g., us?
 
Hey PAD you forgot one.

1953 or 1954: Democratically elected leader of Iran kicked out by staged Military coup supported by the U.S. to place the Shah as the ruler. Coup happened AFTER leader proposed to nationalize the Oil Industry in Iran.

Oh btw PAD after getting the Shah the people of Iran got SO fed up of him they overthrew him and he was replaced by the Ayatollahs who have ruled up to this day. Iran is also believed to have connections to Terrorists. How did we help there PAD? Wouldn't it have just been in Iran's best interests to make their own mistakes?
 
Well Bush has effectively eliminated all terrorism against the United States.

By moving away from covert operation to a declaration of war against "terrorists" Bush has turned acts of terrorism into justified acts of war.

Smart move, Bush.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Well Bush has effectively eliminated all terrorism against the United States.

By moving away from covert operation to a declaration of war against "terrorists" Bush has turned acts of terrorism into justified acts of war.

Smart move, Bush.[/quote]

Not really. The acts the terrorists use are not justified acts of war, e.g. kdinapping civilians and beheading them. I know what you're trying to say, but it's a little different.
 
[quote name='Backlash'][quote name='Quackzilla']Well Bush has effectively eliminated all terrorism against the United States.

By moving away from covert operation to a declaration of war against "terrorists" Bush has turned acts of terrorism into justified acts of war.

Smart move, Bush.[/quote]

Not really. The acts the terrorists use are not justified acts of war, e.g. kdinapping civilians and beheading them. I know what you're trying to say, but it's a little different.[/quote]

Neither side complies with the Geneva Convention, so it's a grey area.
 
PAD brings up the seed of a really good question.

Can you actually eliminate terrorism, ever? The notion that you can show them that it doesn't work is an interesting one.

"Terrorism" is essentially the equivalent of urban guerilla warfare. Back in the day, when people would kneel and shoot in ordered rows, guerilla warfare was outside the "rules" of war. Same today, where civilians are being attacked to further a cause. Why does one engage in terrorism? Because they can't win by playing in the rules. But that's not a value judgement about their cause, it's just a mechanic of how to fight what's perceived as an enemy.

No one can beat the US, militarily. Bush has said that, and it's true. It's stupid, because it's *obvious* at this point, but it's still true. That's not the point, though. That's *why* there are terrorists. Because they know they can't win. If I decide to fight the US Army with a machine gun and a grenade, I'm an idiot. I'm basically just a suicidal buffoon. But if I've decided to fight the US - like, *really* fight it, and try to *beat* the US, how can I do it? The only way that I could potentially beat the US would be by employing terror as a tactic, and fighting entirely outside the "rules of war."

Given any imbalance of power, this is essentially the only sane thing an overwhelmingly overpowered enemy can do.

How do you eliminate that? How do you say, if you're going to fight an invading enemy, say, that you should fight within parameters that guarantee that you will lose?

seppo
 
The terrorists, by acting outside any conventions already, have acknowledged their lack of respect for them, and the lack of importance. So we don't need to follow them either [against that enemy]. Why should one side hold themselves to rules that the other side doesn't? They should make the attempt to rise above that, and abide by those rules, but if those rules make the difference between victory and defeat, and the other party is not using them, we should not be locked into them either.

helava: You make an interesting point, but I don't necessarily agree.
First, sheer power doesn't always equate to victory. I admit, in the current case, the firepower is quite imbalanced, but there have been many cases in history where the technically 'weaker' power has won, through judicious use of its own power/forces.
Your other point, that there are terrorists *because* of the US military might, puts the cart before the horse. There have been terrorists and terrorist attacks before we ever focused our military might.
I would also argue that terrorism in itself is not sane [if my goal is power and followers, the best way to get and keep them is *not* to behead their citizenry.]
"
 
dtcarson - I worded that improperly - it's not that US military might "creates" terrorists - it's just an imbalance of power, period, which in some sense forces one side to look for ... er... unconventional ways of fighting. I don't mean to say that I'm endorsing terrorism as a mechanic, of course - but I am saying that I think terrorism in some form is essentially inevitable, and the hope of eliminating it completely is sort of pie-in-the-sky.

I'm not sure I'd agree with you that terrorism is not sane. I would say, rather, that it's neither an indication of sanity or insanity. Perhaps some terrorists are insane, perhaps some are perfectly sane. I think that it requires some sense of sanity, though, to deliberately exploit your enemy's weaknesses, and hit them where they're least protected.

I think you're mistaken in what the goals of terrorism are, though. Let's say that bin Laden, for instance, wants the Western powers out of the Middle East, and he wants a unified Islamic Arab nation. Just hypothetically. By using terrorist tactics, he can hit at the West, and hopefully get them out of the Middle East - make the price too high to keep permanent military bases in Saudi Arabia, for instance, not worthwhile. I think that would be a relatively sane, and on top of that, a rational way for a distributed power to fight such an overwhelming military power as the US.

Similarly, by showing what an asymmetric power the US is, and how much influence their money and military might can have in the Arab world, he can create a situation like Iraq, where the West has essentially invaded an innocent nation, killed hundreds of thousands of people, and have made essentially no visible progress against an enemy of any sort, because they're decentralized, and not sponsored by any single nation (except, again, maybe Saudi Arabia).

seppo
 
Perhaps I mispoke when I said you show them a better way. I did not mean by fighting with more conventional means or having our enemies focus their efforts on a standing army as we know it. The fact of the matter is the U.S. armed forces are transforming themselves more and more away from their cold war strategies and organization as a result of these unconventional combat enemies/terrorists.

Terrorists cannot and will never come out and face a tank platoon. There isn't a shoulder fired weapon that can defeat an Abrams frontal armor, the best U.S. weapon, the Javelin, probably wouldn't even defeat it. Terrorists will never generate an air force, air mobile force (helicopters) and certainly will never develop a navy capable of taking on our navy.

That said we're all aware of the tactics terrorists will employ. Quite frankly I could think of attacks that could be pulled off for less than $20K that would ruin the consumer market in 4th quarter and as a result potentially bankrupt several companies if not industries. Problem is for terrorists to realize what I have they'd have to think like American's but they can't.

Take out all arguments about the legitimacy of invading Iraq and let's deal with the reality. If a representative republic is set up that works, the speculation on the dinar already proves that the world thinks it will work, terrorists are hosed. If people are behind a government that works for them instead of being in fear of a government terrorist and fundamental muslim clerics have nowhere to go.

The only Islamic country with a history of secular democracy is Turkey. The power base of every other Islamic country is a mix of coups, heredetary succession, royal families of a legitimate and illegitimate nature. The only thing they have in common is oppression of opposition. That opposition may be political, religous or ethnic. If Iraq works like even the fledgling democracies in eastern Europe you're showing the Arab and Muslim world a better option.

The key to societal and worldwide might is no longer military, or strictly military. If you compared the stature in the world of any of the G8 outside of the U.S. they are all world powers. Though not one person can say with a straight face that Canada is a player on the world stage because of its military. That is world might now, the ability to be a player in the economic system of the world.

IF economic warfare broke out between industrial powers tanks wouldn't move, bobms wouldn't fly but countries would be crippled as if they were. If Japan, France and Germany co-ordinated their central banks to devalue the dollar they could kill us and put us in a depression. However they can't as we're the largest market in the world and they are all export driven economies.

This is what I mean by changing the focus of the Islamic world. In many regards they think as 19th century European powers. They believe having an atomic bomb may put them on the world stage. Well, it does, but for the wrong reasons... it makes them a target for the West. Meanwhile if they diversified their economies from oil supply into other key segments and kept their money internally instead of maintaining the majority of their capital in western banks they could develop a significant banking industry.

This is why Iraq is going to be a success and will change the landscape of the terrorist world. If you have people making money from lending, selling cars, providing DVD's, TV's and everything else for granted and making money from it they won't want an oppressive regime. The more capitalism thrives with a government that represents the people the pool of terrorist recruits or dead enders evaporates.

Now this may be generational, it may take 20-40 years. I'm not stating this mission will take place immediately. However it will happen. If we have to knock off Iran and/or Syria to really make great strides, so be it. Neither government is worthy of their people.
 
Nice post, PAD. I mean that quite seriously.

A couple of issues I have with it, though:

1.) A nuclear bomb *does* put you on the world stage. Yes, for the wrong reasons, but the simple fact is that North Korea is now un-invadeable because they have the Bomb, and Iraq is in ruins because they didn't. Every Arab country, now, fears for their security, because Bush made it clear that sovereignity means nothing to him. As a result, the push towards becoming a nuclear power is, practically, *more* important, not less. And now, you have cultures that are heavily invested in suicide attacks with nuclear weapons. The only reason something like Mutually Assured Destruction worked in the Cold War was an underlying notion that you *didn't* want everyone to die.

... gotta head off to work. More later.

seppo
 
[quote name='helava']

1.) A nuclear bomb *does* put you on the world stage. Yes, for the wrong reasons, but the simple fact is that North Korea is now un-invadeable because they have the Bomb, and Iraq is in ruins because they didn't. Every Arab country, now, fears for their security, because Bush made it clear that sovereignity means nothing to him. As a result, the push towards becoming a nuclear power is, practically, *more* important, not less. And now, you have cultures that are heavily invested in suicide attacks with nuclear weapons. The only reason something like Mutually Assured Destruction worked in the Cold War was an underlying notion that you *didn't* want everyone to die.

... gotta head off to work. More later.

seppo[/quote]

North Korea has more or less always been uninvadable. Seoul and 20 million people are within distance of the north's normal tube artillery. We could never invade them in any scenario. Nuclear capable or non nuclear capable.

Without delving too much into what I learned and taught as likely scenarios for war in Korea it was as follows: Seoul was given up for dead and estimated to be a total loss due to conventional artillery. 200 miles of Korea would fall to the DPRK. Reinforcements would be brought in within 2 weeks. Air supremacy/superiority would be established within 48 hours. Key roads in Korea are closable by combat engineers for 30-60 days within hours. There are gigantic cement poles/blockers above key "interstates" at certain choke points whose supports would be blown and would block passage south and create a killing zone for hellicopters and planes.

The advance would stalemate and be reversed within 30 days and as approach to the 38th parallel occured the military leadership would throw a coup and sue for peace. That's more or less the operating doctrine for another Korean war, it may have changed someonewhat at the Pentagon level but that's what the war college is still using.

Your assesment of MAD vs. societies that believe martyrdom is a noble death is true. MAD worked because two sides valued life. MAD doesn't work if only one side values life. That's why soverignty in regards to non-proflieration means nothing and rightfully so. That's why pre-emptive war is a sane and logical military strategy.

Pakistan didn't arm until India did. Pakistan didn't arm to protect from the U.S. arguably Iran is. It's also arguable that they're arming to attack Israel. That happens Israel turns Iran into a country that makes Afghanistan look technically advanced.

I'd like to strangle the Indians for opening this latest round of proliferation, I really would.

SIGH
 
Agreed, about Korea - you're right - even conventional weapons made them essentially uninvadeable. But the nuclear weapons will make them a power that the entire world will be forced to reckon with. NK is, in fact, Pakistan's fault, which then does put the blame largely on India, again. Whee.

But back to the first post - I think that your assessment is what I've heard from the neocons who genuinely believe we are doing something noble and just - that turning Iraq into a democracy will have a fundamental impact on the rest of the Middle East, and that terrorism will fade as capitalism and democracy gain strength in the region. I've heard that argument before, I just don't think that it's valid.

How, then, do you explain someone like Tim McVeigh? Here's a guy who's lived in the most propsperous, "democratic" country in the world. Yet he blows up a building full of innocent people because of what? Because he hates the government?

And that's in our country, where religious extremism is probably still an order of magnitude less intense than it is in a place like the Middle East, where zealotry is an ingrained method of existance, not just a religious aside to most people.

You've also got many different cultures vying for the same space - not cohabitation of the same space, but *dominance*. There is a fundamental difference between people of the Middle East and people of the US. Their thought process is different than ours, because the culture is so fundamentally different.

To say that we can take a Western vision of democracy, stick it in place by force, then watch the region thrive is supremely naive, IMO. What if the French had beaten back the British, then given us what they believed was a "superior" form of government, when our nation was founded? Would we feel the same sense of ownership and pride of our system as we do today? And the French are our *allies*. What if we'd been invaded by another nation, had a million people killed during that invasion, then they'd set up something that was actually superior to our Republic-based democracy? Would we accept it? Would we even tolerate it?

I think one thing that stands out in your post is that it sounds to me, on first blush, and this isn't meant to be offensive, though I believe you'll take it as such - is that it sounds a lot like the Communist Manifesto. The belief that our system is so inherently obvious as the superior that it will overtake all other systems in a domino effect is simply wrong. It underestimates the resilience, flexibility, and desire for stability in people.

Most people, most of the time, just want to survive.

Does that consign these people to a life lived under tyranny? It depends. I believe that it is in some sense, up to them. Barring genocide, do we have the right to invade a sovereign country, upend their government, and kill their people, even if in service of what *we perceive* to be the greater good? I don't think so.

When the invasion is based on cooked information, cherry-picked intelligence, and flawed reasoning, I think so even less.

I would, again, like to thank you, PAD, for this post. Obviously we aren't going to agree, but I'm glad we're actually able to talk, instead of the usual crap.

seppo
 
The one thing you have to realize about McVeigh is he wasn't a religously motivated terrorist. He lived in fear of a corrupt government as do many others, including many conservatives, myself included to a certain extent.

Oklahoma City was a year after Waco. Without recapping Waco there was no reason for our government to attack a compound with women and children within when they could have sat for 300 days or however long it took to wait them out. American life is too valuable to trash like that at the hands of our own government.

That being said two or more individuals saw that action as a declaration of war or an obscene act of aggression of a government gone mad against its own people. It wasn't an attack on our system of government but the belief that the system was broken and needed to be attacked or brought down.

You could take the Bush Doctrine and argue it or contrast it against the cold war domino theory. However take a look at the sharp contrast of the "free" and "communist" states of the era. After WWII we occupied just about all of Western Europe except Spain, Portugal and Switzerland.

In 1967 the French asked all foreign powers to pull their troops. We did. We pulled out 28,000 personnel, their families and civillian base personnel and moved them to the Netherlands, West Germany and the UK. We weren't staying where we weren't welcome.

The same cannot be said of the Soviets. They didn't pull out of any Eastern European countries. They invaded Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovokia in 1968 and Afghanistan in 1979. Only a miracle from God himself (My personal belief.) prevented an invasion of Poland in 1981 at the height of Solidarity. The Russians never left their occupied spaces.

We do. That's a difference.

If the interim Iraqi government asked us to leave we have made it clear we would do so. I have no reason to believe we wouldn't. Do I want to see us have to invade Iran or Syria?

No.

That's a huge difference between us and militarily advancing communism and I don't believe the contrast is valid.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Without recapping Waco there was no reason for our government to attack a compound with women and children within when they could have sat for 300 days or however long it took to wait them out.[/quote]

Under this line of reasoning, why did we have to attack Iraq, an action resulting in the violent death of thousands of women and children? Waiting out Saddam was working, as he had no WMDs. We had him as holed up as we had Koresh and his bunch. If you believe that strongly in the sanctity of innocent life, how can you justify the invasion?
 
[quote name='dennis_t'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Without recapping Waco there was no reason for our government to attack a compound with women and children within when they could have sat for 300 days or however long it took to wait them out.[/quote]

Under this line of reasoning, why did we have to attack Iraq, an action resulting in the violent death of thousands of women and children? Waiting out Saddam was working, as he had no WMDs. We had him as holed up as we had Koresh and his bunch. If you believe that strongly in the sanctity of innocent life, how can you justify the invasion?[/quote]

:applause:
 
I just want to repeat for PAD: Iran 1953. When we do shit like Iraq forgive me for thinking it's a load of bullshit trying to turn it Democratic. Seriously we HAVE to be consistent.
Look at Turkey now though. Yeah they're a Democracy but some stuff is complete bullshit there i.e. the behavior of men. Ever heard the English song by that Turkish rapper?
 
[quote name='dennis_t']Under this line of reasoning, why did we have to attack Iraq, an action resulting in the violent death of thousands of women and children? Waiting out Saddam was working, as he had no WMDs. We had him as holed up as we had Koresh and his bunch. If you believe that strongly in the sanctity of innocent life, how can you justify the invasion?[/quote]

Easily. The cease fire, notice the term cease fire, had been violated so many times in countless ways that Operation Iraqi Freedom was the conclusion to Desert Storm. That war never ended, there was no peace treaty, there was no surrender.

That's why the inspections were going on and why the problems with Iraq continued, the conflict never ended. Getting Saddam out wasn't working. He would have lasted another decade thanks to the oil for food program and I'm saying a decade given his life expentancy. Who knows what would happen if Uday or Qusay would have taken over afterwards.

If we ever end up in a shooting war in Korea it technically isn't a new war, that war is still going on, we're just in the middle of a 51 year ceasefire.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark'][quote name='dennis_t']Under this line of reasoning, why did we have to attack Iraq, an action resulting in the violent death of thousands of women and children? Waiting out Saddam was working, as he had no WMDs. We had him as holed up as we had Koresh and his bunch. If you believe that strongly in the sanctity of innocent life, how can you justify the invasion?[/quote]

Easily. The cease fire, notice the term cease fire, had been violated so many times in countless ways that Operation Iraqi Freedom was the conclusion to Desert Storm. That war never ended, there was no peace treaty, there was no surrender.

That's why the inspections were going on and why the problems with Iraq continued, the conflict never ended. Getting Saddam out wasn't working. He would have lasted another decade thanks to the oil for food program and I'm saying a decade given his life expentancy. Who knows what would happen if Uday or Qusay would have taken over afterwards.

If we ever end up in a shooting war in Korea it technically isn't a new war, that war is still going on, we're just in the middle of a 51 year ceasefire.[/quote]

Who said we needed to get him out? He wasn't hurting anyone but his own people.....just like Koresh.
 
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