I've just got to get this off my chest...

So here it goes... reply as you will...

On this election nights eve, I feel a certain excitment, saddness, and anxiousness. Excitement because its going to be an awesome awesome race. I swear im going to be up all night tomorrow following this thing. Its going to be DAMN cool. This race has been damn intense, and I've gone through a bunch of stages since the Dem's primaries. To be COMPLETELY honest with you, Al Sharpton actually felt the most in line with my views during the primaries (laugh if you will...) When Kerry took it... I had no idea who the hell the guy was (except for the fact that he looked like Lurch from Addams Family). I was never a fan of a lot of things Bush did (and is doing) in this election. I hear alot of people say that "the two cantidates are the same", or that "people are just voting against Bush... not for Kerry". The problem with both statements is this. One man has been president, one man hasn't. One man has had 1460 days, the other hasn't. I cannot tell you that Kerry will be an awesome president... I cannot see the future. What I can tell you is that I've lived under 4 years of Bush, and he doesn't deserve the job anymore. Thats it... plain and simple. After four years of Kerry, then I can tell you what I think of him as a President.

I never supported going into Iraq, simply because I'm a dove... and I (and most of the world) wasn't convinced that it was necessary. It angers me to see people cheering for war, people getting all pumped up because "we're going to kick ass", and "win". This is ING WAR. PEOPLE DIE. YOUNG PEOPLE DIE. FAMILIES DIE (if not always physically). What the is wrong with your head?!?! This gung-ho attitude seems... to me... antihuman. How can someone get excited about death? Not only death, but death on a massive scale. War was necessary for 9/11... I understand that and it saddended me... but it was something that was inevitable. Iraq wasn't. There are a lot of horrible people in the world, a lot of horrible leaders in the world. A lot of atrocities being committed. It sucks. In a perfect world, these things wouldn;t exist... but they do. Saddam isnt the only one. He wasnt the first, he wont be the last. BUT Saddam was not trying to take over the world. He wasn't ing taking over one country after another, he wasnt turning into a super power. He wasnt sitting atop his throne collecting countries and running shit. There was no reason to fear him.

DO NOT tell me that there were WMD's there. Do not tell me you are going to war as a last resort. Do not tell me you are a ing god-fearing christian man. Do not invade a country, find nothing, then change your "goal" to be humanitarian. You didnt care about Iraq, you didn care about the iraqi people. You cared about money, and perhaps finding WMDs. You are not a cowboy, you are not our knight in shining armor. You are a liar. You are an intimidator. You make us fear our own. You make us quiet down when we disagree with you. You ing prick. How dare you, how dare you even run for another 4 years. How dare you send my peers to war without reason. How dare you alienate us, when we need to world the most. They've been dealing with terrorism a lot longer than we have, we were naive.

I am young. I am passionate. I am informed. And you know what... I AM AMERICAN. Just because I'm not voting for good ol' W doesn't mean I'm a traitor... it doesn't mean I'm a communist, it doesn't mean I have nightly flag burning sessions. I love America, I don't like my worlds representative. In the above, there may be flaws in logic. By all means, lace into them. I'm not changing anything about the above because I think its the rawest I've ever been in this thread.

/off my chest...

EDIT: Just some minor spelling things... passion=bad spelling...

You made several very good points.

One thing I wish to bring up. You say Bush has had his chance and you'll be able to judge Kerry after he does. What I'm worried about is that if Kerry is elected and screws up, it will not matter if we judge him or not, the damage will be done.

Also, sure, there may not have been WMD in Iraq. I can understand your views that the president lied or what have you. But you have to acknowledge that taking Saddam out was still a smart move. Think about the Iraqi people who will be voting much like you will be tommarow. Sure they're country still has problems but then so does every country that radically changes government in such a short time.

But you justify your points and you make enough sense that I can understand (if not totally subscribe to).

May the best man win.

You're behind the times. This is The New America. Anyone who disagrees with George W. Bush (ala God's Messenger) is considered to be a traitor and/or terrorist.

Lets make this the get off chest thread...

I watched this during the weekend. It's on cspan2 right now. Ann Coulter is participating at a debate in Amherst College. I have never seen a bigger religious bigot in my life. She accuses Kerry of being a bad Catholic. She basically states that all Muslims should convert to Christianity because islam is an evil religion.

I recommend you guys watch this just to see her get ripped apart and the crowd respones top some of the things come out of her mougth. It's uincreadible she has her own show!

It just upset me so much that someone who is so obviously closed minded and bigoted would be given a respectable platform to preach such hateful speech.

you lost me as soon as you said you liked al sharpton....and to be honest with you they two parties have practically said the same thing on how to deal with everything...and another point, we were sent on more military missions, not wars, but missions with a democrat in office then with a republicain...I don't see how people say that conservatives are all out for the military and going to war...a democrat sent us to ww2, fairly sure it was a democratic leader for the korean, was 2 or 3 democratic presidents in charge of vietnam. Clinton had our military all over the globe we were in hati, sudan, kosov/bosnia, we bombed iraq, and afghanistan...

if their was no wmd's their, he should have come forward and been clean about it...he didnt, he had 17 UN resolutions saying either disarm or face the consequences..how many en resolutions should it take for you to face the consequences..I am sorry he should have been taken care of years ago...and the UN is a thousand times more corrupt then the US gov't and you want to vote for a president that will bend over for them...thanks but no thanks...the world hasn't been dealing with terrorism on a large scale, only isreal has...and the UN won't even back them up...

You are young and you are not that well informed..I listen to both sides..I am a conservative..and to be honest I am not happy with bush and many of his soft or liberal policies

[quote name='ryanbph']you lost me as soon as you said you liked al sharpton....and to be honest with you they two parties have practically said the same thing on how to deal with everything...and another point, we were sent on more military missions, not wars, but missions with a democrat in office then with a republicain...I don't see how people say that conservatives are all out for the military and going to war...a democrat sent us to ww2, fairly sure it was a democratic leader for the korean, was 2 or 3 democratic presidents in charge of vietnam. Clinton had our military all over the globe we were in hati, sudan, kosov/bosnia, we bombed iraq, and afghanistan...

if their was no wmd's their, he should have come forward and been clean about it...he didnt, he had 17 UN resolutions saying either disarm or face the consequences..how many shaq-fuin resolutions should it take for you to face the consequences..I am sorry he should have been taken care of years ago...and the UN is a thousand times more corrupt then the US gov't and you want to vote for a president that will bend over for them...thanks but no thanks...the world hasn't been dealing with terrorism on a large scale, only isreal has...and the UN won't even back them up...

You are young and you are not that well informed..I listen to both sides..I am a conservative..and to be honest I am not happy with bush and many of his soft or liberal policies[/quote]

I am young... you are correct about that. But don't mix that up with being "not that well informed". I've taken the information I've recieved, and up there is my completely biased opinion. Just cause I;m young doesn't make me uninformed.

Bravo.
I hope there are many more of you out there, pumbaa.

[quote name='pumbaa']/off my chest...[/quote]

Feels good, huh?

[quote name='gamefreak']But you have to acknowledge that taking Saddam out was still a smart move.[/quote]

No, you don't.

I know that's almost a heretical thing to say, but the simple fact of the matter is that it wasn't a smart move. You can say that Saddam was a bad man, sure, but there is a cost to having removed him. That cost was that we have to them prop up a new government, fully upend the old one, and ensure both our safety, and the safety of the Iraqi people.

Clearly, we didn't want to pay that cost. So what were the alternatives? The alternatives were to have built a real coalition (Please, oh please someone say that this really is a coalition. Come on. I dare you.) to distribute the burden, or we could have left Hussein in power, and simply continued to enforce the inspections that were keeping nuclear, chemical and biological weapons out of his hands.

You can say "Saddam was a bad man" - that's a truism, at this point, and no one would argue. But there is a cost to our actions, and consequence to our choices, and to say that we should have taken him out, and that it's a good thing ignores the cost, and consequence, of our actions.

seppo

[quote name='gamefreak']But you have to acknowledge that taking Saddam out was still a smart move.[/quote]

Bush Sr. (along with Stormin' Norman) both knew and publicly stated that removing Saddam from power was a bad idea. A shame his son didn't listen to his words of wisdom.

[quote name='ryanbph']you lost me as soon as you said you liked al sharpton....and to be honest with you they two parties have practically said the same thing on how to deal with everything...and another point, we were sent on more military missions, not wars, but missions with a democrat in office then with a republicain...I don't see how people say that conservatives are all out for the military and going to war...a democrat sent us to ww2, fairly sure it was a democratic leader for the korean, was 2 or 3 democratic presidents in charge of vietnam. Clinton had our military all over the globe we were in hati, sudan, kosov/bosnia, we bombed iraq, and afghanistan...

if their was no wmd's their, he should have come forward and been clean about it...he didnt, he had 17 UN resolutions saying either disarm or face the consequences..how many shaq-fuin resolutions should it take for you to face the consequences..I am sorry he should have been taken care of years ago...and the UN is a thousand times more corrupt then the US gov't and you want to vote for a president that will bend over for them...thanks but no thanks...the world hasn't been dealing with terrorism on a large scale, only isreal has...and the UN won't even back them up...

You are young and you are not that well informed..I listen to both sides..I am a conservative..and to be honest I am not happy with bush and many of his soft or liberal policies[/quote]

I know your kind, you wanna get rid of the UN right? Your kind has spoken before. Hopefully we will NEVER get a Conservative in office that will have the US walk away from the UN.

[quote name='Sarang01'][quote name='ryanbph']you lost me as soon as you said you liked al sharpton....and to be honest with you they two parties have practically said the same thing on how to deal with everything...and another point, we were sent on more military missions, not wars, but missions with a democrat in office then with a republicain...I don't see how people say that conservatives are all out for the military and going to war...a democrat sent us to ww2, fairly sure it was a democratic leader for the korean, was 2 or 3 democratic presidents in charge of vietnam. Clinton had our military all over the globe we were in hati, sudan, kosov/bosnia, we bombed iraq, and afghanistan...

if their was no wmd's their, he should have come forward and been clean about it...he didnt, he had 17 UN resolutions saying either disarm or face the consequences..how many shaq-fuin resolutions should it take for you to face the consequences..I am sorry he should have been taken care of years ago...and the UN is a thousand times more corrupt then the US gov't and you want to vote for a president that will bend over for them...thanks but no thanks...the world hasn't been dealing with terrorism on a large scale, only isreal has...and the UN won't even back them up...

You are young and you are not that well informed..I listen to both sides..I am a conservative..and to be honest I am not happy with bush and many of his soft or liberal policies[/quote]

I know your kind, you wanna get rid of the UN right? Your kind has spoken before. Hopefully we will NEVER get a Conservative in office that will have the US walk away from the UN.[/quote]

Hopefully we will. And maybe Bush can tell them all to go themselves while he's at it.

[quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'][quote name='Sarang01'][quote name='ryanbph']you lost me as soon as you said you liked al sharpton....and to be honest with you they two parties have practically said the same thing on how to deal with everything...and another point, we were sent on more military missions, not wars, but missions with a democrat in office then with a republicain...I don't see how people say that conservatives are all out for the military and going to war...a democrat sent us to ww2, fairly sure it was a democratic leader for the korean, was 2 or 3 democratic presidents in charge of vietnam. Clinton had our military all over the globe we were in hati, sudan, kosov/bosnia, we bombed iraq, and afghanistan...

if their was no wmd's their, he should have come forward and been clean about it...he didnt, he had 17 UN resolutions saying either disarm or face the consequences..how many shaq-fuin resolutions should it take for you to face the consequences..I am sorry he should have been taken care of years ago...and the UN is a thousand times more corrupt then the US gov't and you want to vote for a president that will bend over for them...thanks but no thanks...the world hasn't been dealing with terrorism on a large scale, only isreal has...and the UN won't even back them up...

You are young and you are not that well informed..I listen to both sides..I am a conservative..and to be honest I am not happy with bush and many of his soft or liberal policies[/quote]

I know your kind, you wanna get rid of the UN right? Your kind has spoken before. Hopefully we will NEVER get a Conservative in office that will have the US walk away from the UN.[/quote]

Hopefully we will. And maybe Bush can tell them all to go shaq-fu themselves while he's at it.[/quote]

Hasn't he already done that?

[quote name='pumbaa']So here it goes... reply as you will...

On this election nights eve, I feel a certain excitment, saddness, and anxiousness. Excitement because its going to be an awesome awesome race. I swear im going to be up all night tomorrow following this thing. Its going to be DAMN cool. This race has been damn intense, and I've gone through a bunch of stages since the Dem's primaries. To be COMPLETELY honest with you, Al Sharpton actually felt the most in line with my views during the primaries (laugh if you will...) When Kerry took it... I had no idea who the hell the guy was (except for the fact that he looked like Lurch from Addams Family). I was never a fan of a lot of things Bush did (and is doing) in this election. I hear alot of people say that "the two cantidates are the same", or that "people are just voting against Bush... not for Kerry". The problem with both statements is this. One man has been president, one man hasn't. One man has had 1460 days, the other hasn't. I cannot tell you that Kerry will be an awesome president... I cannot see the future. What I can tell you is that I've lived under 4 years of Bush, and he doesn't deserve the job anymore. Thats it... plain and simple. After four years of Kerry, then I can tell you what I think of him as a President.

I never supported going into Iraq, simply because I'm a dove... and I (and most of the world) wasn't convinced that it was necessary. It angers me to see people cheering for war, people getting all pumped up because "we're going to kick ass", and "win". This is shaq-fuing WAR. PEOPLE DIE. YOUNG PEOPLE DIE. FAMILIES DIE (if not always physically). What the shaq-fu is wrong with your head?!?! This gung-ho attitude seems... to me... antihuman. How can someone get excited about death? Not only death, but death on a massive scale. War was necessary for 9/11... I understand that and it saddended me... but it was something that was inevitable. Iraq wasn't. There are a lot of horrible people in the world, a lot of horrible leaders in the world. A lot of atrocities being committed. It sucks. In a perfect world, these things wouldn;t exist... but they do. Saddam isnt the only one. He wasnt the first, he wont be the last. BUT Saddam was not trying to take over the world. He wasn't shaq-fuing taking over one country after another, he wasnt turning into a super power. He wasnt sitting atop his throne collecting countries and running shit. There was no reason to fear him.

DO NOT tell me that there were WMD's there. Do not tell me you are going to war as a last resort. Do not tell me you are a shaq-fuing god-fearing christian man. Do not invade a country, find nothing, then change your "goal" to be humanitarian. You didnt care about Iraq, you didn care about the iraqi people. You cared about money, and perhaps finding WMDs. You are not a cowboy, you are not our knight in shining armor. You are a liar. You are an intimidator. You make us fear our own. You make us quiet down when we disagree with you. You shaq-fuing prick. How dare you, how dare you even run for another 4 years. How dare you send my peers to war without reason. How dare you alienate us, when we need to world the most. They've been dealing with terrorism a lot longer than we have, we were naive.

I am young. I am passionate. I am informed. And you know what... I AM AMERICAN. Just because I'm not voting for good ol' W doesn't mean I'm a traitor... it doesn't mean I'm a communist, it doesn't mean I have nightly flag burning sessions. I love America, I don't like my worlds representative. In the above, there may be flaws in logic. By all means, lace into them. I'm not changing anything about the above because I think its the rawest I've ever been in this thread.

/off my chest...

EDIT: Just some minor spelling things... passion=bad spelling...[/quote]

I've avoided this forum for about a month. This is the first post I've read so far. Very well said. Here is hoping this forum has turned into more of this and less of why I left here....

[quote name='gamefreak']You made several very good points.

One thing I wish to bring up. You say Bush has had his chance and you'll be able to judge Kerry after he does. What I'm worried about is that if Kerry is elected and screws up, it will not matter if we judge him or not, the damage will be done.

Also, sure, there may not have been WMD in Iraq. I can understand your views that the president lied or what have you. But you have to acknowledge that taking Saddam out was still a smart move. Think about the Iraqi people who will be voting much like you will be tommarow. Sure they're country still has problems but then so does every country that radically changes government in such a short time.

But you justify your points and you make enough sense that I can understand (if not totally subscribe to).

May the best man win.[/quote]

What about all the damage Bush has done?

I also think pumbaa wrote a very good post. It wasn't shrill and he made his points clearly.

[quote name='Sarang01']I know your kind, you wanna get rid of the UN right? Your kind has spoken before. Hopefully we will NEVER get a Conservative in office that will have the US walk away from the UN.[/quote]

The UN has been proved to be worthless and corrupt this war. Whether its not taking any force when there is a stack of resolutions, or permanent members of the security counsel being bribed not to take action by our enemies, the UN has proved more harmful than helpful recently.

But you still oppose the IDEA of the United Nations.

The Bush admin justified shooting down the assault weapons ban because "it wasn't effective enough".

Pun intended. =]

[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'][quote name='Sarang01'][quote name='ryanbph']you lost me as soon as you said you liked al sharpton....and to be honest with you they two parties have practically said the same thing on how to deal with everything...and another point, we were sent on more military missions, not wars, but missions with a democrat in office then with a republicain...I don't see how people say that conservatives are all out for the military and going to war...a democrat sent us to ww2, fairly sure it was a democratic leader for the korean, was 2 or 3 democratic presidents in charge of vietnam. Clinton had our military all over the globe we were in hati, sudan, kosov/bosnia, we bombed iraq, and afghanistan...

if their was no wmd's their, he should have come forward and been clean about it...he didnt, he had 17 UN resolutions saying either disarm or face the consequences..how many shaq-fuin resolutions should it take for you to face the consequences..I am sorry he should have been taken care of years ago...and the UN is a thousand times more corrupt then the US gov't and you want to vote for a president that will bend over for them...thanks but no thanks...the world hasn't been dealing with terrorism on a large scale, only isreal has...and the UN won't even back them up...

You are young and you are not that well informed..I listen to both sides..I am a conservative..and to be honest I am not happy with bush and many of his soft or liberal policies[/quote]

I know your kind, you wanna get rid of the UN right? Your kind has spoken before. Hopefully we will NEVER get a Conservative in office that will have the US walk away from the UN.[/quote]

Hopefully we will. And maybe Bush can tell them all to go shaq-fu themselves while he's at it.[/quote]

Hasn't he already done that?[/quote]

Not formally.

[quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'][quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'][quote name='Sarang01'][quote name='ryanbph']you lost me as soon as you said you liked al sharpton....and to be honest with you they two parties have practically said the same thing on how to deal with everything...and another point, we were sent on more military missions, not wars, but missions with a democrat in office then with a republicain...I don't see how people say that conservatives are all out for the military and going to war...a democrat sent us to ww2, fairly sure it was a democratic leader for the korean, was 2 or 3 democratic presidents in charge of vietnam. Clinton had our military all over the globe we were in hati, sudan, kosov/bosnia, we bombed iraq, and afghanistan...

if their was no wmd's their, he should have come forward and been clean about it...he didnt, he had 17 UN resolutions saying either disarm or face the consequences..how many shaq-fuin resolutions should it take for you to face the consequences..I am sorry he should have been taken care of years ago...and the UN is a thousand times more corrupt then the US gov't and you want to vote for a president that will bend over for them...thanks but no thanks...the world hasn't been dealing with terrorism on a large scale, only isreal has...and the UN won't even back them up...

You are young and you are not that well informed..I listen to both sides..I am a conservative..and to be honest I am not happy with bush and many of his soft or liberal policies[/quote]

I know your kind, you wanna get rid of the UN right? Your kind has spoken before. Hopefully we will NEVER get a Conservative in office that will have the US walk away from the UN.[/quote]

Hopefully we will. And maybe Bush can tell them all to go shaq-fu themselves while he's at it.[/quote]

Hasn't he already done that?[/quote]

Not formally.[/quote]

Does his one finger salute count?

Can you please explain to me, why we currently need the UN...they can't handle anything...the peace keeping force is a joke...they can't decide on anything...and don't get me started on how dirty and corrupt the UN...so please list a couple of reasons why we currently need the UN, and give examples on what the UN has done to support your reasons

The primary purpose of the UN is to prevent world wars.

They also created a system for labeling chemicals so that if there is an accident the chemical (and any dangerous properties) can be instantly identified no matter what country or language.

It has saved many lives.

The UN also imposes sanctions on bad countries such as Iraq and Iran.

People who hate the UN are either polluting corporations that want the oppression to stop, terrorist that want sanctions lifted, or ignorant Americans who don't know what the hell the UN does.

The UN is not a military power.

The UN is the only place that can run an international program as a front for bribery and screw up a national election by using the wrong ink.

first you posted 2 seperate idea's...you stated that it is to prevent world wars and then said they weren't a military power...

2nd their sanctions is a joke...Iraq was making tons of money thru the UN, and the oil for food program

The UN doesn't even want to handle situations in Hati, as they said they couldn't take care of it...WTF is the purpose of the UN if they can't handle a small island...

The UN served its purpose after WWII...it has come to its end, much like the league of nations...and has become a useless body...N.korea, iran are still making nuclear weapons..even know the UN is watching them...the UN didn't want to go into kosovo, and clinton went in on his own, without the UN...it is time for a new setup to be made

[quote name='Quackzilla']The primary purpose of the UN is to prevent world wars.

They also created a system for labeling chemicals so that if there is an accident the chemical (and any dangerous properties) can be instantly identified no matter what country or language.

It has saved many lives.

The UN also imposes sanctions on bad countries such as Iraq and Iran.

People who hate the UN are either polluting corporations that want the oppression to stop, terrorist that want sanctions lifted, or ignorant Americans who don't know what the hell the UN does.

The UN is not a military power.[/quote]

So basically we need the UN because of what they've done, not what they do.

No, the UN isn't perfect. Very few things are. But the world needs a global body where countries can take their grievances and try to resolve them peacefully.

[quote name='ryanbph']first you posted 2 seperate idea's...you stated that it is to prevent world wars and then said they weren't a military power...[/quote]

A peacekeeping military is an oxymoron, let's not forget.

[quote name='ryanbph']first you posted 2 seperate idea's...you stated that it is to prevent world wars and then said they weren't a military power...

2nd their sanctions is a joke...Iraq was making tons of money thru the UN, and the oil for food program

The UN doesn't even want to handle situations in Hati, as they said they couldn't take care of it...WTF is the purpose of the UN if they can't handle a small island...

The UN served its purpose after WWII...it has come to its end, much like the league of nations...and has become a useless body...N.korea, iran are still making nuclear weapons..even know the UN is watching them...the UN didn't want to go into kosovo, and clinton went in on his own, without the UN...it is time for a new setup to be made[/quote]

You are right! One that Americans control fully because we NEVER make mistakes.