CAGcast #115: The Beta is Not a Chicken

This week's topics include Microsoft's Wii-mote clone, downloadable content, CAG 2.0's review system and way too much stuff to list in two sentences.
We still leave time for game industry and shopping news and your CAGbag questions.

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[media]http://media.libsyn.com/media/cheapyd/cagcast115.mp3[/media] Download - 104 minutes, 48MB
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Show Linkage/Notes (click the button below to expand):

Random Bonus Pictures/Video


[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb9mVZaDgM[/MEDIA]

By popular request, bjwoodruff's CAGs On News Theme Song
[media]http://www.cheapassgamer.com/podcast/cagsonews.mp3[/media]

Nice! Good stuff, will listen tomorrow.

what do you think should happen with Artie Lange?

I'll look forward to the new CAGcast Cheapy and Wombat

downloading now, will listen before i fall asleep .

LOL ! Nice Street Fighter 2 Reference !!!

Brazil !

Great show, Listening right now

Can't wait for CAG2.0 or whatever it's called, the next step in the websites evolution. Have you heard about Screwattack's changes to their website?

[quote name='MikeydCT']what do you think should happen with Artie Lange?[/quote]It's a sad situation. I think its fairly clear he is back on coke and is quickly losing it. I think he needs to go to rehab (again) and and therapy, and hopefully can salvage his career on the Stern show.

for the CAG review system you should use what i like to call my ESRB review system

E - Eject it ([0-3] terrible game, not worth your time/money)
S - Steal it ([4-5] mediocre game)
R - Rent it ([6-7] good game)
B - Buy it ([8-10] awesome game, worth your time/money)

Downloading now. Reserving opinion spot for later.

Tai endorsing Linux? Cute, indeed!

What is the M-16 360 video?

You could always go with a 1-5 system
1- So bad I'd rather play the Aquaman game.
2- Hardcore fans of genre/IP only.
3- 100% average.
4- Very good, near perfect.
5- Portal good.

Gonna listen when I get home from school..

[quote name='CheapyD']It's a sad situation. I think its fairly clear he is back on coke and is quickly losing it. I think he needs to go to rehab (again) and and therapy, and hopefully can salvage his career on the Stern show.[/quote]


I dont think he's doing coke. He eats too much and with his amount of money he would always be on it and rarely come down. I think there's a possibility that it's just for the show.

Loved the ' Stupid Bitch' comment

Good show this week. I like the pull system that Wombat mentioned and the I think a rating system that does incorporate some type of "how much would you buy this one for?" system would be nice. However a "Buy it, Rent it, Avoid it," and perhaps a "Get It Cheap!" works for me too.

Sweet! great way to wake up from a nap, new show and as an added bonus CAGs on news theme song I've been waiting for.

[quote name='die138']I dont think he's doing coke. He eats too much and with his amount of money he would always be on it and rarely come down. I think there's a possibility that it's just for the show.[/quote]
I doubt it was an act. They didn't replay the radio show afterwards, there is no show rundown on howardstern.com, and there are no plans to show it on Howard TV.
If you've listened closely recently, Artie has made several references about him doing coke. For a long time, he has not even joked about doing coke again...being very serious about his coke problem.
He has also been falling asleep during the show lately, perhaps suggesting that he has been up all night and not continuing the drug use during the show.

Also, I've seen Arties movies...his acting isn't that good.

[quote name='Bartex']for the CAG review system you should use what i like to call my ESRB review system

E - Eject it ([0-3] terrible game, not worth your time/money)
S - Steal it ([4-5] mediocre game)
R - Rent it ([6-7] good game)
B - Buy it ([8-10] awesome game, worth your time/money)[/quote]

Hey, I like that Idea, Second that.
Good show as always.
So Cheapy you said you would take any fellow CAGs in Tokyo out for dinner, what do all of us CAGs who are not in Tokyo get. A contest with some amazing giveaway?

I'm Listening to it right now!

Comes with a coupon for a free cocktail.

I would volunteer to review games from a certain company's platforms

Review Scale:

-Must buy
-Mostly for fans of the series/genre
-Avoid at all costs.

Having a less meaningful or more vague review scale forces people to read the article, which is where its at.

The game scoring system should be the suggested money system.
Having a price set to a game would fit into your site being a shopping site.
Some games may be worth more than the actual price letting users know it is a great value. The only problem is what is the ceiling of value? There could be a $60 game that is worth more than $60. Would $100 be the ceiling? Then people will think it is a 100 point scale. There are not many games I would pay $100 for.

Regarding Gamestop exclusives in general, & the future value of MGS4 LE in particular:

The only examples I can think of are the RE4 LE Tin (GC), which are available for $50 new on Amazon, and I guess that RE4 Premium which is $70. So we dont have good precedent here.

Something that starts at $85 is already really close to the ceiling, almost regardless of how limited it actually is. If you can sell it for $100, its not really worth the trouble.
_________

Regarding rumors of a 360 Wiimote ripoff:

Non-standard peripherals always flop as far as software support. Always. From bongos to any number of cameras to guncons. Support is very limited, because sales necessary are very limited.

The Wii balance board might be the most successful peripheral of all time, and support for that will be limited. And its maybe 8 weeks from outselling the PS3 in Japan.


________________
Alternative to having a rating system.

You just list what groups would enjoy the game. It can range from everyone to no one, and everything in between.

So you could say, this game is mostly for fans of ____ or this game is mostly for casual gamers, and so on.

Then people can consult the write-up depending on how much they feel they are in the groups listed.

[quote name='Jackal888']The only problem is what is the ceiling of value? There could be a $60 game that is worth more than $60. Would $100 be the ceiling? Then people will think it is a 100 point scale. There are not many games I would pay $100 for.[/quote]

There are many other problems with a system where you specify how much you think a game is worth instead of giving it a traditional rating.
- It completely alienates anyone who doesn't live in the US, who might want to review games on CAG (because everything would have a US dollar value).
- Valuing what a game is worth is completely subjective, even more so than a regular score. For example, a Final Fantasy fan might always be willing to pay full price for an FF game, even when they wouldn't give it a 10 with the traditional 1-10 scale.
Another example, I spent a lot of time playing Mr. Driller on the Dreamcast. I'm thinking about buying Mr. Driller Online in the Xbox Live Arcade. I know it's a bad game, poorly reviewed, and probably a bad purchase - but Mr. Driller and achievement points, what's not to like? If I lose my mind and end up buying it, my valuation would be the full MSRP - even though I'd score it a lot lower on the traditional scale.
- Because games have different MSRPs it limits what you can do with the data. For example if you have a list of racing games and sort by the average CAG valuation, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue would appear far down the list because it has a smaller MSRP. It means you can't use the value as a score replacement because the upper limit always changes - people are less likely to say they'll pay $60 for a $40 game, regardless of the quality.
- Game value changes over time. I would've paid $60 for Halo 1 at launch, but I wouldn't now. For the data to be relevant people would have to update their valuations over time.
- The system doesn't work as well for things like Xbox Live Arcade games (where price drops are rare). If CAGs say a particular XBLA game is only worth a purchase at half price, there's no point in recording that data because the price is never likely to change.
- People reviewing games should have played and finished the game - that means that on day one, any reviews that have been posted should theoretically be at full price (or nearly full price).

Good show this week. I'd sure be an interesting experiment if you just left your shit bags in front of the daycare center and see if a trash can would appear after repeated throw-aways.

I'm surprised you guys didn't talk about Games For Window Magazine shutting down since you guys love to talk about Ziff Davis' financial situation.

[quote name='FriskyTanuki']I'm surprised you guys didn't talk about Games For Window Magazine shutting down since you guys love to talk about Ziff Davis' financial situation.[/quote]Somehow missed that story. Here's the scoop: http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=8693249&publicUserId=5380367

You should probably try this for reviews:

Buy it now
Buy it later
rent it
avoid it
burn it

"The beta is a beta" quote means it's not just an exclusive online demo, but that the game actually needs gamers to help them fix things.

How to justify the $85 LE MGS4: (NOTE: I HAVE NOT pre-ordered the Limited Edition, and I'm not interested in it)
- The Metal Gear Solid Soundtrack. The MGS soundtrack is usually one of the best of the business.
- The Documentary. Some people (Crazy people) can't get enough of looking at Kojima
- The boxart. Here's a big one you didn't touch on. The boxart for the standard edition sucks (for North America at least). The Limited Edition one is in line with the previous versions, and the difference is attractive to a lot of Metal Gear fans for them to make the switch.

I'm not saying it's worth it, I'm just saying that this is some justification. Oh, but a downside is that tins suck.

Even though Warhawk sold more through the PS store, remember that the game sold WITH a headset. So, if you didn't have a headset, you'd probably get the disc, and if you did, you probably would get the Downloadable one.

I'd fly to Tokyo to have dinner with Cheapy and have a Rock band party with him. You Tokyo Cags are lucky bastards lol.

Wombat's right about PS3 themes having custom sound effects, though it's only the official ones from what I've seen. The Ratchet & Clank theme is my favorite because it looks great and use Ratchet SFX for the XMB, which is elevates it above the others that sound like normal. The PAIN themes also have custom sound effects, too, but they're incredibly juvenile and stupid that I can't have them on for more than a few seconds. Download the Santa's girlfriend one to see what I mean. Not many have them, so don't expect them on all themes.

[quote name='John']
- It completely alienates anyone who doesn't live in the US, who might want to review games on CAG (because everything would have a US dollar value).
[/QUOTE]

Look at the front page of CAG. All of the prices there are in USD. The vendors we buy from and advertise here, they sell in USD. That's just the way things are.

[quote name='John']
- Valuing what a game is worth is completely subjective, even more so than a regular score. For example, a Final Fantasy fan might always be willing to pay full price for an FF game, even when they wouldn't give it a 10 with the traditional 1-10 scale.
[/QUOTE]

Final Fantasy fans aren't going to care whether CAG gave the game a score of "8" any more than they would if they gave it a target price of "$50". Fans are going to buy games they're fans of regardless of review scores or the format those reviews are in.

[quote name='John']
Another example, I spent a lot of time playing Mr. Driller on the Dreamcast. I'm thinking about buying Mr. Driller Online in the Xbox Live Arcade. I know it's a bad game, poorly reviewed, and probably a bad purchase - but Mr. Driller and achievement points, what's not to like? If I lose my mind and end up buying it, my valuation would be the full MSRP - even though I'd score it a lot lower on the traditional scale.
[/QUOTE]

You know you like the game, what do you care what anyone else says?

[quote name='John']
- Because games have different MSRPs it limits what you can do with the data. For example if you have a list of racing games and sort by the average CAG valuation, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue would appear far down the list because it has a smaller MSRP. It means you can't use the value as a score replacement because the upper limit always changes - people are less likely to say they'll pay $60 for a $40 game, regardless of the quality.
[/QUOTE]

Just list the MSRP with the score.

This last part makes no sense to me. Who is gonna pay $60 for a game with an MSRP of $40? Sorry to be so crude, but this is Cheap Ass Gamer, not Dumb Ass Gamer.

[quote name='John']
- Game value changes over time. I would've paid $60 for Halo 1 at launch, but I wouldn't now. For the data to be relevant people would have to update their valuations over time.
[/QUOTE]

Are people selling Halo 1 for $60? If you can get the game for lower than recommended, that's what we call a *good deal*. That's the point. Game prices will always go down. We're trying to determine what is the *most* you should pay. Always try to get the lowest price regardless.

(These aren't going to be just prices just hanging out in the ether. There's going to be some text attached, just like any other review.)

[quote name='John']
- The system doesn't work as well for things like Xbox Live Arcade games (where price drops are rare). If CAGs say a particular XBLA game is only worth a purchase at half price, there's no point in recording that data because the price is never likely to change.
[/QUOTE]

Correct. Downloadable/Marketplace commodities are a different breed for a plethora of different reasons. These should get a simple Yes/No recommendation.

[quote name='John']
- People reviewing games should have played and finished the game - that means that on day one, any reviews that have been posted should theoretically be at full price (or nearly full price).[/QUOTE]

You don't have to play a game all the way through to get a feeling for how much it's worth. Hell, I can probably count the number of 360 games I've finished on one hand, but I know whether or not I'd recommend them to you, and how much I think you should pay should you be interested.

Don't think I'm picking on you, or singling you out, you just made some interesting points to which I wanted to respond.

Cheers,
m13b

[quote name='Jackal888']The only problem is what is the ceiling of value?[/QUOTE]

The ceiling is the MSRP, to be listed with the review.

I'll give it a listen this afternoon while I'm playing Culdcept Saga.

Hey guys. Gotta give the props to Wombat. I'm loving the dollar amount system. I can see it now. As people give a game a dollar amount they think its worth, the system can begin to compile all of the values provided. An automated alert system can compare these numbers to the database of game prices you've already announced, and the top 5 deals can be posted on the front page (or wherever). This way, you combine rating AND good game value. If you wanted to get really robust, you could allow users to exclude the dollar rankings of users they don't agree with and have it recalculate on the fly.

It would be very valuable to me to be able to open CAG 2.0 and see the 15 games in red text whose average price finally dropped below the "worth" threshold determined by the reviews of my fellow CAGers.

I think that sounds awesome, and I think it makes the review system more CAG and less generic review. I say Wombat is right on target.

Stay on target!

The Problem with the money scale is that an amount of money something is worth is different to every person. What is worth 20 dollars to me, might only be worth 10 dollars to someone else.

Also I am here to recommend The Mana Knight to review games on Sony Platforms.

[quote name='InuFaye']The Problem with the money scale is that an amount of money something is worth is different to every person. What is worth 20 dollars to me, might only be worth 10 dollars to someone else. [/QUOTE]

Winner.

Dollar system seems awfully complex. Call me stupid if you want. Easiest way to avoid the 6-10 scale is to use a five point scale or a custom scale that uses only 4 or 5 gradients. A custom scale like:
Must Have
Very Good
Playable
Pretty Bad
Utter Crap

Or something like that.

[quote name='ajm1240']Dollar system seems awfully complex. Call me stupid if you want. Easiest way to avoid the 6-10 scale is to use a five point scale or a custom scale that uses only 4 or 5 gradients. A custom scale like:
Must Have (9+)
Very Good (8)
Playable (7)
Pretty Bad (6)
Utter Crap (5-)

Or something like that.[/QUOTE]

Fixed.

[quote name='InuFaye']The Problem with the 1-10 scale is that a score is different to every person. What is a 9 to me, might only be a 7 to someone else.[/QUOTE]

Fixed.

The Problem is that every review is subjective, and is only one persons opinion.

[quote name='InuFaye']The Problem is that every review is subjective, and is only one persons opinion.[/QUOTE]

The only solution to that is to not review. My point being, it's really not a problem.

Great show as usual.

Although I love the DLC Cheers and Tears section, it would be best if you guys refrain from giving future DLC the cheers or the tears. That segment should be used only for content that arrived that week of the CAGcast recording. This would avoid giving out the same cheers or tears twice to the same content when it actually does arrive. (Examples: PSN Store Upgrade, Kane & Lynch content...)

[quote name='InuFaye']The Problem with the money scale is that an amount of money something is worth is different to every person. What is worth 20 dollars to me, might only be worth 10 dollars to someone else.

Also I am here to recommend The Mana Knight to review games on Sony Platforms.[/quote]


That is why you pull the average.

[quote name='CheapyD']It's a sad situation. I think its fairly clear he is back on coke and is quickly losing it. I think he needs to go to rehab (again) and and therapy, and hopefully can salvage his career on the Stern show.[/quote]
I dont think he will be alive by the end of the weekend. He went to Amsterdam, with all the drugs and hookers there he will over do it and Od or have a heart attack..

Seems to me like it'd be good to allow someone to change their review.

For example, they may be really hyped up about a new game. They get home and play it and, "Wow! Ain't it great!" So they give it a top rating.

A week or two blows by the the game that was hyped just kind of dropped off. Like it went from being fun to just tedious.

So it'd be nice if they could go back and edit their rating.