CAG MORAL DILEMMA: A lowlife thief, a CAG, or somewhere in-between

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loserboy

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Okay, an informal poll.

Would I be lowlife thief, a cheap ass gamer, or somewhere in between?

I was in Gamestop today and I walked over to the empty box of Splinter Cell: Pandora's Tomorrow on the shelf. In the box, on the shelf beneath the instruction booklet was a free 12 month subscription to xbox live.

If I take it am I a lowlife thief, a cheap ass gamer, or somewhere in the moral nebulousness betwixt the two....
 
Basically, you didn't steal from the store, but from the gamer who would one day purchase that display copy.
 
What if I asked someone at the store...does that make it any more or less wrong? What about the eventual person who buys the supposed "New" copy of the game that's been sitting opened for four months?

What if I asked someone at another Gamestop and he said go right ahead it doesn't make a difference? Does getting the okay from somebody at another store in the same chain mean that it's okay?

Edit: Is the cost of the card included in the cost of the game or is it a bonus? What if it was a warranty card I took out of the box? What if I walked into the store and the card had fallen out of the box on the shelf and was laying there on the floor and I picked it up?
 
It's not any worse than the employees of EB and Gamestop gutting multiple copies of the game to try to find one with the 12 month card so that's the one they buy (an EB employee admitted to this on another board)
 
How pissed would you be if you did buy a copy of it, really wanted some sort of XBL subscription, and there was no card whatsoever, I would be really angry. I really don't think it matters whether you ask an employee or not, since they really wouldn't have the right to say you could keep it. Did you actually pick it up or not?
 
That's the question isn't it? Did I take it? I won't reveal the answer just yet.

But this goes on to the other debate about selling anything that isn't actually New as New.

Not to justify the action in any way, but as food for thought:

No consumer should be forced to buy open product as new. If they insist on opening up a copy in order to have an attractive display, that copy should be sold as USED. It was used. Maybe not for gameplay purposes, but for the purposes of merchandising, sales, etc. So anyone who buys something that is open and old and USED and is willing to pay full "new" price should be forewarned.
 
Well this is for me a tweener, you get it for FREE if you buy the game. But you didnt buy the game. I guess you can also say the same for people who put $5 to pre-order the game to get a bonus disk or some kind of pre-order giveaway BUT dont buy the game.
 
[quote name='MightySlacker']You know, I don't think you should lose any sleep over this one[/quote]

I agree. We're human, and with that comes temptation. Just live.
 
So far this is pretty much an even split...pretty interesting.

41% say thief
40% say either they'd do it or I'm a CAG...hmmm....

Any other thoughts.
 
what are you talking about 19 votes for scumbag thief if you take it.

A few of the others have 8 votes, but if you jus tflat out STEAL it then yeah you are a thief.
 
Now it's 20 votes I'm a thief, but the point is that there are 27 votes that say I'm not a thief or that they themselves would do it....

Of course, maybe I did do it. Or maybe I'm thinking about it.

But this opens up so many other issues.

I'm going to start another poll on a related topic. If I buy a used game at Gamestop or EB and they tell me that they don't have the case or the instructions, but I find that the next day they actually do have the case and insstructions...can I take the case and instructions from the shelf, since I bought the game????
 
I would say that if you ask if you can have it, then it's not stealing. At the moment in time that you ask for it, it is legally owned by them. If they choose to give it to you, that's fine. As for the person that actually buys that game, they're responsible for making sure that an open copy of the game comes with everything included. If it doesn't, they should ask for a discount off the purchase price (but the burden is on them).

[quote name='loserboy']I'm going to start another poll on a related topic. If I buy a used game at Gamestop or EB and they tell me that they don't have the case or the instructions, but I find that the next day they actually do have the case and insstructions...can I take the case and instructions from the shelf, since I bought the game????[/quote]

No, because that's technically still stealing. You could, however, request that they give it to you, since you bought it just a day previous. If it's the same price as the one you purchased, they should be willing to honor your request.
 
Is it thievery, probably, but when you consider the other choices. 1. Do nothing, thus making it incredibly likely that someone else will pick it up, or 2. Ask them if you can keep it, which will probably illicit a no, even though the person who told you that you couldn't have it will probably pocket it anyway. It all depends on your own moral code, but personally I sure could use a free year.
 
They don't charge you for the case and/or the instructions. They only charge you for the game. How can you steal something that is 100% free?
 
They don't charge you for the case and/or the instructions. They only charge you for the game. How can you steal something that is 100% free?
Click to expand...

There's no such thing as 'free'. Someone else is paying for that 'free' item. In this case, it would be whoever buys that copy at $50. Why should he/she be screwed out of a XBOX live 2 or 12 month trial, simply because someone else was too much of a dick to simply pay for his own subscription?
 
This person isn't "screwed" out of anything. It's an open package that has been used that a company is in turn going to try and sell as NEW.

The consumer simply looks into the open box and says...how the hell can you call this new? All of the parts aren't even here? Or better yet, even if everything is there.

This game has been used for the last six months. Whether the employees ever took it home or not, it has been used to advertise the game, to promote sales, and to encourage consumers to view the contents of the packaging.

You don't want people taking things that you don't charge for then shrinkwrap them after you've opened them up, or remove the contents of the cases and keep them with these alleged new games that are sitting so pristinely behind the counter someplace.
 
[quote name='Ebraum']Basically, you didn't steal from the store, but from the gamer who would one day purchase that display copy.[/quote]

That's what i'm thinking. :?
 
Although it's slightly in the fog (since it's a used game, there is no guarantee of instructions or special XBL deals) - I don't think it would be really right to take it. But if you did take it, I don't think it was very wrong.

If it was a new game, then it is wrong, just like stealing PIN numbers from Mario Kart boxes was wrong.
 
My point is how do you know the difference between used and new when there are open, gameless boxes sitting on the shelves.

If the packages are open and the games are removed then are the games new or used?
 
Actually the stores treat it differently. It if is a shelf copy then they consider it new. And sell it as such. So snagging parts from the package is stealing. Of couse the store was stupid for not putting the guts of the package behind the counter but that does not make it right. With your theory you could purchase a used game disc and then steal instructions from the store since they are on the shelf.

The fact of the matter is that as a consumer you should not buy it since it is not sealed and is therefore used. I say it is used because they opened it. They would not let me open it and then return it as new. I see that as a cost of their business. If they choose to open the game then it is their loss not mine as the consumer. Of course this is another argument for another discussion board.
 
[quote name='loserboy']Now it's 20 votes I'm a thief, but the point is that there are 27 votes that say I'm not a thief or that they themselves would do it....

Of course, maybe I did do it. Or maybe I'm thinking about it.

But this opens up so many other issues.

I'm going to start another poll on a related topic. If I buy a used game at Gamestop or EB and they tell me that they don't have the case or the instructions, but I find that the next day they actually do have the case and insstructions...can I take the case and instructions from the shelf, since I bought the game????[/quote]

hold onto your receipt, and then ask if they will give the manual/case.

my ebgames and gamestop stores are pretty cool, NONE of their prices are including the manual for their older games, when someone sells them a older game, they just keep the manuals in a pile, and when I buy a game, I ask if I can get a couple manuals from the stack and they say, "sure"
 
[quote name='Indiana']Actually the stores treat it differently. It if is a shelf copy then they consider it new. And sell it as such. So snagging parts from the package is stealing. Of couse the store was stupid for not putting the guts of the package behind the counter but that does not make it right. With your theory you could purchase a used game disc and then steal instructions from the store since they are on the shelf.

The fact of the matter is that as a consumer you should not buy it since it is not sealed and is therefore used. I say it is used because they opened it. They would not let me open it and then return it as new. I see that as a cost of their business. If they choose to open the game then it is their loss not mine as the consumer. Of course this is another argument for another discussion board.[/quote]

this is usually called "open box" or a "store model" and they will generally give a discount for them( depends on the store tho)
 
Thief, definately. It's not yours, you have no right to take it.

Now, the "right" way to go about this would be to buy the shelf copy. If they say, "hey dude, here's a shrinkwrapped one", be insistant that you want the copy that was on the shelf. That's what I would do. Technically you're cheating in a contest, but them's the breaks if they sell it to ya. :)
 
To take the subscription card at all would be stealing. Whether you asked and they said yes or not. It was put in the box for the person who will eventually purchase that copy of the game. Admittedly the store in question was stupid for leaving the card in the case rather than storing it safely behind the counter with the game and it would be on them if someone else stole it and a customer brought it to their attention when trying to purchase the game. As for taking the box and instructions of a used game you had already purchased, if you asked and they said it was alrigt that would be fine. If you just took it however, it would be wrong. Personally I'd request whatever case they did give you back in exchange but I agree if you ask most stores wouldn't think much of it and give them to you provided you had a receipt proving you did purchase the game.
As for the debate over display copies being new or not, they are. In most stores they go directly from the box to a protective sleeve where they stay till that copy is purchased. I can appreciate some people being upset over seeing a new game that has already been opened but how else is a store going to display a game? Most gamestores couldn't afford to line their entire store with glass cases to keep everything behind and they certainly can't put unopened games out on the shelf all over the store. There are too many dishonest people in the world and the theft rate from game stores is already extremely high. It is necessary for these stores to gut a few copies to be put out on display. There isn't much choice in the matter. I say so long as all of the original contents of the box are included and the game itself or any promotional material included were never used than it is still new. If employees took the game home and played it, I would say it is used but that is not the case in most stores. I'm sure there are stores that do that but they are the minority. In the game stores I go to employees can be fired for taking games home like that even if they are returned the next day.
 
Outlaw...there is absolutely no way the opened games are new. Where else would this sort of thing fly? What other consumers (other than naive gamers) would stand for buying an open and used product as new. If I go into the grocery store and they have rows and rows of open cereal boxes with the internal cereal bags still sealed would those be new?

These games are USED. For marketing purposes. They are used to sell themselves. THEY ARE NOT NEW! A new game comes shrinkwrapped. A new game comes with a seal on the top to show that...hmm...that the game hasn't been used. Why pay premium price for something that has been manhandled, manipulated and presented to you as something other than it is.

If you are going to tell me that gamestop and ebgames can't afford to put out glass cases for their games, or can't come up with a better system to display things then you'd better check their annual statements. These companies make A LOT of money off of what they do. The gamestores that couldn't afford to line their walls with glass cases are also the ones who would not charge you FULL RETAIL PRICE for an opened product...so they're not of too much concern to me. As I've said in another post, I bought an allegedly new (opened) GBA game at EB and it had a saved game on it. So whatever the policy of these stores there is absolutely no way they can guarantee that these open products haven't been taken for a spin.
 
[quote name='loserboy']Outlaw...there is absolutely no way the opened games are new. Where else would this sort of thing fly? What other consumers (other than naive gamers) would stand for buying an open and used product as new. [/quote]

Have you ever bought a "new" car? A car that has been driven can still be called new, because even if it's never been test driven someone still had to drive it at the factory, and unloaded it from the carrier, etc...

And cars are a hell of a lot more expensive than a $50 game. IMO, a game is used when someone plays it in a console. The shrinkwrap is nice, but irrelevent.

You're still dodging our point that you'd still be taking something that doesn't belong to you. It's not a warranty card, it's not a manual, you're talking an item with a real $50 value. If you want it, fine, buy that specific copy of the game. It's stealing and you know it, otherwise you wouldn't have posted this whole 'moral dilemma' thread.
 
If I actually took it, I haven't said one way or the other. As for taking something that doesn't belong to me....it doesn't belong to anyone. Gamestop does not charge for cases and instructions. They sell both new and used games without cases and/or instructions on numerous occasions and have charged full price with no discount.

This being the case, and following their logic, taking something with no value is NOT stealing. It's free. It's not the game which is the only thing they put a price premium on, therefore it does not cost anything and has no intrinsic attachment to the game itself. Ergo, by the precedent they themselves take by not reducing the cost for missing cases/etc. one is simply taking something that is otherwise worthless.

The games are not NEW. They are used. If the games were taken out of the box and tossed around like frisbees rather than stored they would be used as frisbees and therefore used. If they are taken out of the box and used to sell other copies of the game they are used.

Oh, look, there's a copy of the game in the xbox they have on the floor. Do you think they're going to package that up and say that it was used, or are they going to take the box it was originally in and say it's new. NEW of course, it's their policy. Their cheat the consumer policy.

As for "used" cars, there's an understanding when purchasing a car. Would you buy an open box fridge as new? These discs can get scratched if not stored properly, they can get greasy fingerprints on them if the clerk was eating McNuggets when they opened the games for display.

They are not new.
 
Of COURSE the card belongs to Gamestop. The card came with the game, and they bought the game from a distributer.

End of story.
 
[quote name='loserboy']Outlaw...there is absolutely no way the opened games are new. Where else would this sort of thing fly? What other consumers (other than naive gamers) would stand for buying an open and used product as new. If I go into the grocery store and they have rows and rows of open cereal boxes with the internal cereal bags still sealed would those be new?[/quote]

when you order imported cds, they are often open, but they are still new.
 
Finders keepers.
If you asked for the guy would of said no, and took it home himself. Dont beat yourself up over it. unless you didn't take it.
 
[quote name='loserboy']...taking something with no value is NOT stealing. It's free. It's not the game which is the only thing they put a price premium on, therefore it does not cost anything and has no intrinsic attachment to the game itself.[/quote]

That's where you're wrong. First of all, whether you're talking about instructions, cases, or XBox Live subscriptions, the item has some value because you wouldn't take it otherwise. You can't justify taking something simply because it has "no value." Using your same logic, I could be justified in walking out of a store with a bunch of games for a system I don't own, without any intent of reselling, simply because they have no value to me. And just because something doesn't have a specific price attached to it doesn't make it free, either. You cannot walk away with something that is part of a package deal. When you could get Splinter Cell free with the purchase of Prince of Persia, could you ever get SC for free because the $50 price tag was on PoP? Same kind of thing here. The bottom line is that unless an item is clearly marked "free" or is intended to be given away for free, you do not get it for free. This includes things that are part of a package deal and have been separated from the rest of the package - they are not free either.
 
Videogamer234
You miss my point when I speak of no intrinsic value. I am not speaking on a personal level, but rather the market value that the store itself places on the items it sells.

For example, Skies of Arcadia, new, disc only is the same price as skies of arcadia, new with instructions and case. Therefore the instructions and case have no value to the store. The price has not changed. They sell an open game with nothing other than the disc at the same price as a new sealed game...so what value do the case and instructions have? They don't charge you for them, they don't demand a premium. When you trade in a used game you get nothing for the case and instructions...zero dollars and zero cents.

They have set the precedent. Not the consumer. They must live by their own rules.
 
[quote name='loserboy']Videogamer234
You miss my point when I speak of no intrinsic value. I am not speaking on a personal level, but rather the market value that the store itself places on the items it sells.

For example, Skies of Arcadia, new, disc only is the same price as skies of arcadia, new with instructions and case. Therefore the instructions and case have no value to the store. The price has not changed. They sell an open game with nothing other than the disc at the same price as a new sealed game...so what value do the case and instructions have? They don't charge you for them, they don't demand a premium. When you trade in a used game you get nothing for the case and instructions...zero dollars and zero cents.

They have set the precedent. Not the consumer. They must live by their own rules.[/quote]

I don't know where you shop but no store I've ever been in has sold the disk for a game by itself as new. If they had a new copy but the box, instructions, etc had been stolen they would sell the disk for the same price as a used copy. As for the car analogy, it is a good one. You don't consider a car used even though it has already been driven via test drives and transport to the lot. Same deal with a new game. The gutted copy is just like a new car that has been driven to the lot for sale or used in test drives. If the game has been played on a system or any promotional materials included haved been used or taken than I would consider it used. If it was only moved from the box to a protective sleeve and it was never played and the rest of the original contents are intact I say it is still new. Oh, and the individual stores themselves don't make a lot of money for themselves. They don't have the money to spend retrofitting their stores themselves and the corporate offices that do make all the money aren't likely to authorize the kind of spending it would require to put glass cases around all their stores so they can have things on display without gutting them and without high risk of theft.

Also, it is true that stores selling a used game only consider the disk itself as the item for sale. However, it is only considered a new copy if all of the original contents are included; box, instructions and all.
 
Wrong...I've seen it SEVERAL Chicago area Gamestops sell GAME ONLY copies as new. No box, no instructions...just the game...one in a Schaumburg mall, another right here around the corner from my house. So I don't know where you shop...

Also, with a car, you hvae legitimate proof of what the car has been through. It has an odometer. You know precisely how many miles the car has been driven. With a game, you have absolutely no proof what happened with the game when it was out of the box. You have the sales person behind the counter, who also may or may not know if Josh took the game home with him the night before...
 
[quote name='loserboy']
Also, with a car, you hvae legitimate proof of what the car has been through. It has an odometer. You know precisely how many miles the car has been driven. With a game, you have absolutely no proof what happened with the game when it was out of the box. You have the sales person behind the counter, who also may or may not know if Josh took the game home with him the night before...[/quote]

That's not true at all. What if the car has 20 miles on the odometer, which is not unusual at all, and even a bit on the low side. However, what you DON'T know is that Jeffy the Lot Boy took a car that had 5 miles on it and did burnouts by brake-torquing the car (this is when you have the car in drive, hold down both the gas and the brake as far down as they will go, then release the brake). Your logic is still side-tracked onto meaningless points. Taking that card is stealing something that isn't yours, period.
 
Who does the card belong to? That's my questions for you.

What if I had taken a promotional Nintendo Power flyer out of an open Gamecube game. One that would allow me to get a free Zelda Collector's disk with a subscription to Nintendo Power? If I took this out of the game case on the shelf is that stealing?

If not, what's the difference. The "value" of the Xbox live subscription vs. the "value" of a free Zelda Collector's disk. perhaps you'll say all I have to do is subscribe to Nintendo power online and I can get the same deal...what if I don't have internet access and taking that paper is the ONLY way I could be subject to the deal.

More importantly these gamecards are available free by mail to anyone who wants them. So how is taking something that you can get ten copies of FREE by mail stealing? Someone buys the game and doesn't get a card, you can get one or two or three FREE for asking for them by mail.

It is your logic that is skewed and faulty.
 
[quote name='loserboy']Who does the card belong to? That's my questions for you.

What if I had taken a promotional Nintendo Power flyer out of an open Gamecube game. One that would allow me to get a free Zelda Collector's disk with a subscription to Nintendo Power? If I took this out of the game case on the shelf is that stealing?

If not, what's the difference. The "value" of the Xbox live subscription vs. the "value" of a free Zelda Collector's disk. perhaps you'll say all I have to do is subscribe to Nintendo power online and I can get the same deal...what if I don't have internet access and taking that paper is the ONLY way I could be subject to the deal.

More importantly these gamecards are available free by mail to anyone who wants them. So how is taking something that you can get ten copies of FREE by mail stealing? Someone buys the game and doesn't get a card, you can get one or two or three FREE for asking for them by mail.

It is your logic that is skewed and faulty.[/quote]

It would still be stealing if you took that promotional flyer out of a case on the shelf. It was packaged with the case to be recieved by the person who bought that copy of the game. By your logic, I could just take the demo disk from an Official Xbox Magazine without purchasing the mag. Since what you are really purchasing is the magazine anything that is packaged with it has no intrinsic value, right? Wrong, when something is packaged with a game it is put there with the understanding that the party who purchases said game recieves it.
As for the stores up there in Chicago, sounds like they might be more shady up there than they are here. Down here in the south I have never seen a store sell the disk alone at full new pricing. I have seen them sell new copies of a disk before at a used price because they could not find the original case for it.

It also doesn't matter if you can get them free by mail. That is by mail. When they are packaged with a game they are intended to accompany that copy of the game.
 
[quote name='loserboy']Who does the card belong to? That's my questions for you.

More importantly these gamecards are available free by mail to anyone who wants them. So how is taking something that you can get ten copies of FREE by mail stealing? Someone buys the game and doesn't get a card, you can get one or two or three FREE for asking for them by mail.

It is your logic that is skewed and faulty.[/quote]

1. The card came with the game, and the game belongs to the store.

2. My logic is fine, or it may be "skewed". Whatever. At least I know there's nothing wrong with my morals, it sounds like you may have an issue there.
 
Outlaw -Actually you are not paying for magazine, you are paying for the disk. This is evidenced by the fact that there are much cheaper subscriptions for xbox magainze available without the disc...therefore the disc demands a premium and is NOT free.

Additionally Outlaw, by opening the game and placing it on a shelf gamestop is no longer allowing for ANYTHING to be packaged "with" the game. They have created a used game. It is not a new game and should NOT be sold as such.

And it does make a difference that a game piece is available by mail. This is a lottery based contest and BY LAW these items can not be based on purchase. The contest is open for FREE to anyone and everyone who bothers to enter it. BY LAW these items can not be sold.
 
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