2009 MLB Discussion Thread

yep and time to see all the rust come off these guys.

Im really interested to see how pudge showcases himself. this is his audition to play in 09. he better do good for his sake.

also interested to see how the US Team does this year. it looks pretty good with Wright,Pedroia,Jeter, and a host of others...but Domincan Rep is still awesome on paper.....I still feel like the Japanese will come up big like they did last year.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']yep and time to see all the rust come off these guys.

Im really interested to see how pudge showcases himself. this is his audition to play in 09. he better do good for his sake.

also interested to see how the US Team does this year. it looks pretty good with Wright,Pedroia,Jeter, and a host of others...but Domincan Rep is still awesome on paper.....I still feel like the Japanese will come up big like they did last year.[/quote]

I think that it could go a long way for some free agents, assuming that they play in it. It could really sell their value playing in the WBC.

I hope the US wins it, but I think it will probably come down to DR and Japan, with DR winning.
 
[quote name='craven_fiend']I think that it could go a long way for some free agents, assuming that they play in it. It could really sell their value playing in the WBC.

I hope the US wins it, but I think it will probably come down to DR and Japan, with DR winning.[/quote]

same here. I hope the US takes it but the other two are loaded.

[quote name='lordwow']I'm hoping it doesn't wear guys out like the last time.[/quote]

for our teams' sake me too. I dont want to go to opening day and seeing a tired Santana ,Wright,Beltran,Delgado,Reyes.....dam Minaya..the whole team is going lol.
 
[quote name='lordwow']I'm hoping it doesn't wear guys out like the last time.[/QUOTE]
They're going to work the hell out of Matsuzaka. Even their training regimen is very strenuous, and something the Sox have been trying very hard to get Matsuzaka off of. They're going to have to give him a light workload in the opening months of the season.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']They're going to work the hell out of Matsuzaka. Even their training regimen is very strenuous, and something the Sox have been trying very hard to get Matsuzaka off of. They're going to have to give him a light workload in the opening months of the season.[/QUOTE]

I think that is why they got both Smoltz and Penny. I think it is going to be pretty much a 6 man rotation. Dice-K will get some benign "injury" early in the season and miss a few weeks
 
I'm looking forward to the season. I try to get to one Red Sox game a year, but with me living in Buffalo I don't get many opportunities. I usually head to Toronto to watch them beat the Blue Jays but couldn't make it last season. This year my goal is to actually see a game at Fenway. Use my vacation time from work to fly to Boston for a game. Hope to catch a Red Sox - Angels matchup. Usually a good rivalry. Tickets are impossible for Yanks/Red Sox, so I won't even bother.
 
[quote name='integralsmatic']yep and time to see all the rust come off these guys.

Im really interested to see how pudge showcases himself. this is his audition to play in 09. he better do good for his sake.

also interested to see how the US Team does this year. it looks pretty good with Wright,Pedroia,Jeter, and a host of others...but Domincan Rep is still awesome on paper.....I still feel like the Japanese will come up big like they did last year.[/QUOTE]

Mets might be interested in Pudge.....

A few players will be showcasing themselves in the WBC. Pedro will also be trying to impress but even if he plays well, he will get hurt at some point this season.
 
The US lost to Mexico and Canada.... I have no faith in them. I just want the US, and Australia to lose out in the first round so Kazmir, Balfour and Howell don't have to pitch in the WBC.
 
The big issue American players have is there work regiment. Players from the southern hemisphere play year round. They have what is it called, Caribbean world series going on now. They Japanese team has been practicing together for awhile. The American team gets put together during spring training.
 
The Caribbean is not in the Southern Hemisphere. The Southern Hemisphere gets winter when we get summer. It's the people around the equator that can play year round.

I'm hoping the Dodgers just go ahead and sign Manny. They're a whole different team with him can win the West even without Penny and Lowe.
 
the dodgers could sign dunn, orland Hudson and wolf for the money manny wants. If manny caves and takes a 1 year deal or less money then what has been already offered to him, then dodger fans may see the selfish immature bitch that he is. There is no other teams interested in him. Why should the dodgers cave. No dunn is no manny ramirez, but u could get him for 2 years for a lot less money and put up solid numbers.
 
Adam Dunn strikes out way too much for any sort of money. I'd rather have the Dodgers put up big bucks for a true hitter instead of a Dave Kingman like "slugger".
 
O-Dawg as a Dodger? I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Out of the teams he has mentioned, the Mets would be the least vomit inducing. I wish the Diamondbacks kept him but that is the price you pay (or rather don't) for trying to field an inexpensive team.

He does deserve to get pizzaid though.
 
Because more than 5% of big leaguers had tested positive in 2003, baseball instituted a mandatory random-testing program, with penalties, in '04. According to the 2007 Mitchell Report on steroid use in baseball, in September 2004, Gene Orza, the chief operating officer of the players' union, violated an agreement with MLB by tipping off a player (not named in the report) about an upcoming, supposedly unannounced drug test. Three major league players who spoke to SI said that Rodriguez was also tipped by Orza in early September 2004 that he would be tested later that month. Rodriguez declined to respond on Thursday when asked about the warning Orza provided him.

When Orza was asked on Friday in the union's New York City office about the tipping allegations, he told a reporter, "I'm not interested in discussing this information with you."
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Ugh
 
[quote name='depascal22']Adam Dunn strikes out way too much for any sort of money. I'd rather have the Dodgers put up big bucks for a true hitter instead of a Dave Kingman like "slugger".[/QUOTE]

Strikeouts for a hitter are not a big deal. The fact remains he gets on base, and is a lock for 40 HRI, 100+ RBI's. Whoever signs him will get an absolute steal.
 
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[quote name='depascal22']Adam Dunn strikes out way too much for any sort of money. I'd rather have the Dodgers put up big bucks for a true hitter instead of a Dave Kingman like "slugger".[/QUOTE]

well if u don't like dunn there are other options. Abrea is an on base machine with some power and a 100 RBI guy. Jermaine dye is being offered up by the whitesox. Xavier nady and matsui are being shopped by the yanks. There ate plenty of above avg offensive players available for a fraction of the cost of manny.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/index.html



Fun way to start the (pre)season for MLB...[/quote]

Yeah, this is what I just posted on the ESPN Yankee board about this garbage.

Ah God, I can't believe I sign on and see this crap. Personally, I'm over all the "So and so once did steroids back in...." It is completely ruining the game. In my opinion, all the positive tests from any time before there were concrete rules and punishments in place, should have been destroyed. Dragging up garbage from 6 years ago is going to do nothing but ruin the public perception of the game. No good is going to come from this.

Was it wrong that Alex allegedly did steroids in 2003? Of course! But that was a MUCH more naive MLB. The more players that we learn did steroids, the more irrelevant the argument becomes. So, in 2003, when Roger Clemens was on the Yankees (doing steroids) and he faced A-Rod on the Rangers (doing steroids) it was an even matchup no? The only reason the steroid issue needed to be brought to light was to show MLB it needed to tighten the reins and clean up the game. That has been done, and the league should be moving forward. Continuing to dig into players' pasts is just trying to cause trouble. It makes me think that the people doing this hate the sport, and are just trying to sling mud. When are we ever going to be able to move on?
Click to expand...
 
Has the game really been cleaned up? The rich players can still buy enhancement drugs, that either can't be tested for (hgh) or they can buy masking agents. The enhancement drug market is similiar to hackers. Restrictions/rules/drm can be put into place but someone will always find a way around it. I don't have a problem with what arod did in the past, I do have a issue with him being tipped off of an upcoming test by the players union. That is fucked up.

I also don't have issue with the use of steroids. IMO a large portion of MLB players where using something that is against the rules now. I also believe that players before the steroid era where using shit to alter there body in some way that is illegal now. There has been jokes about the coolers with one being normal and the other having stimulants in it.
 
[quote name='ryanbph']Has the game really been cleaned up? The rich players can still buy enhancement drugs, that either can't be tested for (hgh) or they can buy masking agents. The enhancement drug market is similiar to hackers. Restrictions/rules/drm can be put into place but someone will always find a way around it. I don't have a problem with what arod did in the past, I do have a issue with him being tipped off of an upcoming test by the players union. That is fucked up.

I also don't have issue with the use of steroids. IMO a large portion of MLB players where using something that is against the rules now. I also believe that players before the steroid era where using shit to alter there body in some way that is illegal now. There has been jokes about the coolers with one being normal and the other having stimulants in it.[/quote]

I totally hear where you're coming from man, but my response to that would be that at least MLB is recognizing it as an issue now. If players and drug companies are able to stay one step ahead of the testing, then what can you really do? But you have to acknowledge that the testing is taken much more seriously now than it was 5 years ago.

I hated Canseco for writing his first book, but at least it accomplished something. The Mitchell Report showed the world how serious and widespread of an issue it was. But players shouldn't have ever been named. It's ridiculous what a circus it's turned into. The media and society are passing judgment on guys for doing things before there were actual rules against doing them. Is that not unethical in itself??? I believe it's called post-facto.

Here's an example. If I drive my car down the highway at 75 MPH when the speed limit is 70 MPH, some might say it's dangerous, but it's not really outside the stretch of the law. 5 years later, the speed limit gets reduced to 55 MPH. Should I be judged as an unsafe, law breaking citizen because I USED to drive that fast BEFORE there was a law against it? That's just stupid.

The most important thing is maintaining the integrity of the testing that happens now...which would definitely include not allowing anybody to tip players off about an upcoming test. Anything in the past is just mud slinging. Anything about "undetectable PEDs" is just speculation. If we're that paranoid about our sports entertainment, why bother playing? Why bother watching? As you said, there's no guarantee that players from the 50s and 60s weren't using substances to "get an edge".

The point it's at now, it just feels like people are looking for trouble. What resolution could they possibly be seeking? I think Selig needs to step up, address the media, and let them know that enough is enough. MLB has implemented the best testing policy it can, and the past cannot be changed. Otherwise, let's just wipe out every title and every record from the past 15-20 years. That will solve everything. :roll:
 
The argument that steroids weren't illegal in baseball until 2002 is a myth. They have been a banned substance in Major League Baseball since 1991, there was simply no means of enforcement until 2003. 2002 is still before the test that proved A-Rod* took steroids.

What you are arguing is that it was perfectly fine when there was little chance of being caught.
 
I'd still rather have Manny because he brings a whole different dimension to a lineup compared to Abreu, Dunn, Nady, or Dye. I can't think of a single team that quakes in their boots when thinking about getting one of those guys out.

As for the steroids test, I'm not surprised Orza did what he did. If the big name players got suspended or banned, it would've been a disaster of epic porportions. It's alot harder for most of us to get really pissed off about things that happened five years ago.

Also, the speed limit analogy is broken at best. It's not like it was legal to take a little bit of steroids before and some guys went over that limit. Now, the limit is much lower and people are getting hit up for past transgressions.

A better analogy might be Prohibition. It became illegal to drink. If you drank before the law was enacted, you didn't get in trouble. You just got in trouble for the here and now. Besides, A-Rod failed his test in 03. Not only was it illegal in sports but it was illegal on the street. The bottom line is that people can hem and haw about steroids not being banned by MLB but they shouldn't have had to say anything. The federal government already put it on the controlled substances list which should have been all that was needed.
 
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Its funny how all these guys that get caught are playing on the same teams.
The Yankees- Andy Pettite, Clemens, Giambi, A-Roid, Justice
The A's- Giambi, Canseco, Mark M
The Rangers- Rafeal Palmero, Arod, Canseco



Ryan Howard signed a 3 year $54 million dollar deal
 
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[quote name='slickkill77']Its funny how all these guys that get caught are playing on the same teams.
The Yankees- Andy Pettite, Clemens, Giambi, A-Roid, Justice
The A's- Giambi, Canseco, Mark M
The Rangers- Rafeal Palmero, Arod, Canseco[/quote]

Well, for whatever reason, these are all the names being reported. Personally, I think every name of the 104 who tested positive should be released. It's BS to just name A-Rod and have the world rip into him as though he was the only one. I've already read a story saying the SI reporter (Selena Roberts) has no intention of releasing the other names though. Kinda makes you wonder what A-Rod did to her. Either way, it's garbage.

And now you've got some douche former strength and conditioning coach for the Rangers coming forward saying that he told the Rangers FO that A-Rod was on steroids, but they didn't listen to him. I'm just tired of how slimy this whole thing has gotten. It just seems like an easy way for people to get their 15 minutes of fame and make a quick buck.

I could call CNN and tell them that Alex and I used to do steroids together while we watched Sesame Street, and they'd give me a freaking interview. It's just sick.

And to those condemning A-Rod by saying that steroids were all around illegal in 2003...that's nice. Build a time machine and go catch the guy in 2003. If you went up to a cop and told him "Hey! Guess what. I did crack in 2003", do you think he's going to do anything? If you committed murder, that's one thing. But there's no "on-going investigation" into who's ever tried drugs in the history of life. Everything after the Mitchell report has been a complete waste of time in my opinion. It's just fodder for the media.
 
This is just separate from my main paragraph, but n8te you say its unfair for people to only rip Aroid? What about Bonds? He is the face of steroids. He is always ripped. Mark M, Sammy S, Rafael P, these guys all blatantly lied to congress about their steroid/HGH use. People hardly ever mention it anymore. The reason? They aren't relevant anymore. Bonds holds both homerun records, Clemens was one of the best pitchers and Arod was suppose to be the "clean" slugger that would take the records. Does anyone really care is Joe No-one in AA is caught? No. Even if the other names are released no one will care unless the players on it are relavant. Arod is breaking all these records hence the attention

It doesn't matter what names are released. Whoever gets released, by name, is a cheater, period. I don't want to hear the whole "but everyone was doing it argument. " Steroid user = cheater. Now and in 2003.
This is right up Arod's alley. The guy is d-bag through and through. So is his agent but that's a whole different argument.
Look at Marion Jones. She got her ass caught and she deserved what she got. She lied to everyone and was forced to give up everything she won. Anyone caught using steroids at any point should be punished. How is it fair to the guys that are legit and were legit. Arod cheated during his MVP season and it is just going to be pushed under the rug because 1. He's Arod, 2. He's a Yankee, 3. Bud Selig is a terrible comish

Also it gives me another way to insult to insult the Skankees. Andy Pettite = HGH user, ARod = Steroids....if only Giambi was still there
 
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[quote name='slickkill77']Hey it doesn't matter what names are released. Whoever gets released, by name, is a cheater, period. I don't want to hear the whole "but everyone was doing it argument. " Steroid user = cheater. Now and in 2003.
This is right up Arod's alley. The guy is d-bag through and through. So is his agent but that's a whole different argument.
Look at Marion Jones. She got her ass caught and she deserved what she got. She lied to everyone and was forced to give up everything she won. Anyone caught using steroids at any point should be punished. How is it fair to the guys that are legit and were legit. Arod cheated during his MVP season and it is just going to be pushed under the rug because 1. He's Arod, 2. He's a Yankee, 3. Bud Selig is a terrible comish

Barry Bonds, MM, SS, Arod, Giambi.[/quote]

So, what's the answer then? The more this shit gets uncovered, the more we find out that 95% of the big awards, records, and contracts over the past 20 years went to cheaters. Let's just wipe out the past 20 years of baseball then, and chalk it up as a waste of time.

Let's just throw out every record and award. You're talking about taking away MVPs, Cy Youngs, Silver Sluggers, Gold Gloves, Batting Titles, reset Roger Maris as the single season HR king, and Hank Aaron as the all-time HR king. While we're at it, let's issue a court order to all these top players to pay back the huge contracts they got for being the "elite athletes" of their time. No matter what you do with all this information, it's a huge mess. How do you "fix" this crap?

Of course it's not fair to the guys who were legit, but at this point, how do you distinguish them from the cheaters? Show me the negative tests of players and then we can all praise them for being true athletes. Hell, Pete Rose was a gambler. What makes you think he wasn't a juicer? What about Nolan Ryan? At this point, all we have is a sample.

There are so many people all over the internet throwing in their two cents, griping about who's a cheater and that they should be punished, but I've seen very few people offering solutions. What should MLB do about all this? That's what I'd like to hear.
 
[quote name='slickkill77']Also it gives me another way to insult to insult the Skankees. Andy Pettite = HGH user, ARod = Steroids....if only Giambi was still there[/QUOTE]
Theres a certain 1st baseman the Yankees just acquired who was in the clubhouse with A-Roid and Palmeiro in 2003. And since the SI reporter is withholding the rest of the names, everyone is under a cloud of suspicion right now. Not that I suspect him in particular, but theres always a way to insult the Yankees.

The solution is a real drug testing program and not this charade that MLB has created. I'm talking blood tests. The PA will never allow it of course, and they've proven that random testing will never truly be random at all for high end players.
 
[quote name='slickkill77']This is just separate from my main paragraph, but n8te you say its unfair for people to only rip Aroid? What about Bonds? He is the face of steroids. He is always ripped. Mark M, Sammy S, Rafael P, these guys all blatantly lied to congress about their steroid/HGH use. People hardly ever mention it anymore. The reason? They aren't relevant anymore. Bonds holds both homerun records, Clemens was one of the best pitchers and Arod was suppose to be the "clean" slugger that would take the records. Does anyone really care is Joe No-one in AA is caught? No. Even if the other names are released no one will care unless the players on it are relavant. Arod is breaking all these records hence the attention[/quote]

No, I totally agree with you there. But I think using one link to steroids in 2003 (a year in which his HR numbers actually went down) to define A-Rod's entire career and legacy is unfair. If we're taking a scientific approach, and using facts and evidence to prove whether or not these athletes cheated, then all we can conclude is that A-Rod did steroids at some point during 2003. If that leads people to think that he MUST have been doing them prior to that (and possibly even after that), it's unfair.

This is why I feel that overall, most of this information is useless...even on Bonds. You're taking one piece of information, from a very inconsistent testing period, and filling in the blanks. The way to avoid this is having mandatory tests at certain points in the year for all players. Then year to year, MLB will have a record, and will know for certain (within the bounds of detectable drugs anyway...) that their players are clean. As for the past, like I said...I don't know how you fix it. It's a fucking mess.
 
Now begins the witch hunt.. and probably a dry spot in HOF voting for players during this era... It's sad that A-Rod had to use steroids.. especially since he was a good enough player with out it.. presumably..
 
I really hope the Cardinals fans can still buy tickets and the team can afford its payroll. All I hear/read on Bill Simmons podcast and columns is how the Tigers and Cardinals are going to trade Miguel Cabrera and Pujols to the Red Sox at the trading deadline for pennies on the dollar because they won't be able to afford them. I really hope this doesn't happen.
 
So now the questions for me are: Thome, Griffey, Manny and Frank Thomas. Did they do roids?

Cause if they did no one is over 500+ homers legitly from the current active roster.

I say they just release the other names and get it over with. Let everyones name be tarnished who took roids.
 
Does it really matter? IMO there where both pitchers and batters cheating. In theory it should have been an equal playing field for those that used. How do we know that hank arron or babe ruth were not using something? If players did or still are using some illegal enhancement drug, are you going to stop watching baseball. Does it really matter to most fans of the game? Do you really give 2 shots if they get into the hof? Put them in, put an asteriks next to their name and get over this teenage drama bullshit.
 
[quote name='MSUHitman']I really hope the Cardinals fans can still buy tickets and the team can afford its payroll. All I hear/read on Bill Simmons podcast and columns is how the Tigers and Cardinals are going to trade Miguel Cabrera and Pujols to the Red Sox at the trading deadline for pennies on the dollar because they won't be able to afford them. I really hope this doesn't happen.[/QUOTE]

There are more then those names being thrown out there. (not to the redsox in particular, I haven't heard anyone named as potentially going to the sox if they can sell tickets.). A lot of the teams are in cities that got hurt bad by this economic crisis. IE Detroit, Chicago etc..,I have heard that magilio ordonez may be available for nothing come June, by peter gammons. The whitesox are actively trying to move dye.
 
[quote name='DJSteel']Now begins the witch hunt.. and probably a dry spot in HOF voting for players during this era... It's sad that A-Rod had to use steroids.. especially since he was a good enough player with out it.. presumably..[/QUOTE]

He hit more homers and RBIs in the previous season before the alleged steroid season in 2003. I don't recall the stats (too lazy to draw them up) but I believe had had approx. 10 more homers in 2002 compared to 2003 and 10+ more RBIs as well.

If steroids did anything it lowered his performance ;)
 
[quote name='depascal22']Adam Dunn strikes out way too much for any sort of money. I'd rather have the Dodgers put up big bucks for a true hitter instead of a Dave Kingman like "slugger".[/quote] You're overrating Ks. There is plenty of value gained from what Dunn does at the dish. His bat is not what's keeping him homeless, it's the fact he's a DH.
 
[quote name='klwillis45']You're overrating Ks. There is plenty of value gained from what Dunn does at the dish. His bat is not what's keeping him homeless, it's the fact he's a DH.[/quote]

Ks are a little more hurtful in the NL though. You only get 8 batters so you really need to squeeze production out of the other spots.

Also, the Dodgers have a young lineup with good contact hitters. I'd hate for them to see that big bucks (or any bucks) get awarded to free swinging sluggers that strike out way too much.

I'd much rather see a guy that can be depended on to go opposite field (Manny), hit and run (Manny), and can play at least marginal defense (well you got me there). Basically, I want Manny back in LA.

You guys are acting like the Dodgers weren't a completely different team with Manny. The team and city were energized like Fernando was back on the mound. You just don't get that with Dunn, Abreu, Dye, or Nady. Not even close. Yes, they're cheaper than Manny but the Dodgers can win a championship with Manny and marginal pitching. They can't do it with those other guys.

EDIT -- Before you guys continue to defend Adam Dunn. Remember, he's never gotten his team over the hump. His best Cincinnati team finished 3rd in the NL Central. He was brought in last year for the DBacks and they finished 2nd in the West and a whopping 8 games out of the Wild Card. Would they have been better if Griffey had been healthy? Maybe. It's not like Dunn helped them over the hump hitting .247 over his career. And his OBP is only .381.

Look at Manny. The guy does nothing but win everywhere he goes. He's never finished below 2nd place. The Indians did finish in 6th in '93 but Manny only played in 22 games and got 53 ABs. Oh, and Manny is a career .314 hitter with an OBP of .411.
 
[quote name='gamer4432']He hit more homers and RBIs in the previous season before the alleged steroid season in 2003. I don't recall the stats (too lazy to draw them up) but I believe had had approx. 10 more homers in 2002 compared to 2003 and 10+ more RBIs as well.

If steroids did anything it lowered his performance ;)[/QUOTE]

If he did it in 03 it is possible and likely be did it before that. Your argument is moot, as we have no idea if/when he started steroids.
 
[quote name='depascal22']
Look at Manny. The guy does nothing but win everywhere he goes. He's never finished below 2nd place.[/QUOTE]

The 2006 Red Sox finished in 3rd.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Ks are a little more hurtful in the NL though. You only get 8 batters so you really need to squeeze production out of the other spots.

Also, the Dodgers have a young lineup with good contact hitters. I'd hate for them to see that big bucks (or any bucks) get awarded to free swinging sluggers that strike out way too much.

I'd much rather see a guy that can be depended on to go opposite field (Manny), hit and run (Manny), and can play at least marginal defense (well you got me there). Basically, I want Manny back in LA.

You guys are acting like the Dodgers weren't a completely different team with Manny. The team and city were energized like Fernando was back on the mound. You just don't get that with Dunn, Abreu, Dye, or Nady. Not even close. Yes, they're cheaper than Manny but the Dodgers can win a championship with Manny and marginal pitching. They can't do it with those other guys.

EDIT -- Before you guys continue to defend Adam Dunn. Remember, he's never gotten his team over the hump. His best Cincinnati team finished 3rd in the NL Central. He was brought in last year for the DBacks and they finished 2nd in the West and a whopping 8 games out of the Wild Card. Would they have been better if Griffey had been healthy? Maybe. It's not like Dunn helped them over the hump hitting .247 over his career. And his OBP is only .381.

Look at Manny. The guy does nothing but win everywhere he goes. He's never finished below 2nd place. The Indians did finish in 6th in '93 but Manny only played in 22 games and got 53 ABs. Oh, and Manny is a career .314 hitter with an OBP of .411.[/quote]


No one isn't saying that manny isn't a stud offensively. He is, and he was an even bigger stud when he went to the dodgers. But you are overlooking many things.

I am NOT a fan of adam dunn. He does k to much, and he has a rather pathetic BA. He DOES have a solid if not great OBP. It is in the same ballpark as manny's. I don't really pay much attention to the reds, but I would imagine that dunn takes a lot of pitches, probably looking for something he can crush, thus getting him into situations where he will K, but he has a great obp, so he is getting on base. His OBP, HR, and RBI are in the same ballpark as manny, no he isn't as good but is manny worth $17 million more a season. IMO he is not. The dodgers don't have to replace manny with just one player (dunn, abreau, dye, nady etc) they can add other players to improve the depth/strength of there lineup. IMO, I would rather have orlando hudson and abreu/dye with money left over to improve the bullpen then have manny and blake dewitt. Even you mentioned that the NL only has 8 batters and you need to squeeze production out of all of them to get by the pitcher hitting.

Your point about manny winning everywhere he goes is utter bullshit. He was on some incredible clubs. The indians teams he was on had a lot of stud player that had some incredible seasons such as Sandy alomar, robbie alomar, jim thome, carlos beagra (sp?), omar vizquel, travis fryman, kenny loften, russell branyon, david justice, albert belle, batolo colon, jose mesa etc...they were all studs at some point if not for one season, several. The 04 redsox the AL batting champion hitting 7th or below all season, they had your alleged ace, derek lowe, as the #5 starter in the playoffs. Manny did contribute to these teams success, but he was a part of incredible teams.

Your other big issue is that you are only looking at a snapshot of manny as a player/person. He was happy to be in LA, he hit ungodly #'s for roughly a 1/3rd of the season. You haven't seen the player that takes almost 6 seconds to 1b, (mind you in a game where you team was being no hit) or a player that was pissed at redsox brass before the allstar break and in a game he was brought into pinch hit, didn't swing. Or the player the slaps his teamates and throws a 67ish year old traveling secretary to the ground. Or the guy that just decides he doesn't want to play today, or the guy that ( i think it was 04) sits out the majority of the games on a west coast trip because he wants to DH, and the manager wants him to play in the OF. The guy that has more phantom injuries then anyone that has ever played. Yes, your fans were energized but it wasn't just manny being there, it also had to do with the fact that your team was winning. Do you really want a player like him influencing your young studs on how to NOT play the game properly. You don't think they don't see him getting away with shit (ie not trimming his dreads for a very long time) and getting paid the money he is getting. They are taking that in and some may think it is ok to act like that.

In the end he would improve your team assuming he is happy manny for a full season, but in the current MLB market he isn't worth $25mill. IMO in the current market he is closer to $15mill and he doesn't deserve more then a year or 2 contract. The dodgers are most likely bidding against themselves and should stop contact and let boras contact them 2 wks into spring training when manny is ready to report.
 
I agree, Dodgers haven't experienced "Manny being Manny" first hand, just wait until he starts pulling the shenanigans he did in Boston.

You saw all that effort out of him because he wanted a lucrative, long term contract at the end of the season.

I think the Dodgers should put the money that it would take to get Manny on board to sign several solid players.
 
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