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Obama Care Could Be Deadly


#5101 Spokker   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   2211 Posts   Joined 13.3 Years Ago  

Posted 27 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

They would have more luck setting up the health care exchanges on Geocities.

 

I tried to sign up for health care but I was informed the federal government went over its free Tripod web site bandwidth limit. 



#5102 UncleBob  

Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:30 PM

Watching live TV (ugh) and just saw a commercial telling folks to go to healthcare.gov.

Why are we paying money to run ads telling people to go to a website that doesn't work?

#5103 Msut77   Occam's Shank CAGiversary!   6251 Posts   Joined 14.1 Years Ago  

Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:05 PM

I saw someone online make 2 valid points.

 

1) Healthcare reform was about more than a website.

2) Theoretically they could have done everything through snail mail and it wouldn't have been any faster than websites that are you know improving.

 

I would like to add another not-so-valid, the people making the biggest stink about this just happen to be the least objective who were against reform in the first place.



#5104 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1020 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:17 PM

I saw someone online make 2 valid points.

 

1) Healthcare reform was about more than a website.

2) Theoretically they could have done everything through snail mail and it wouldn't have been any faster than websites that are you know improving.

 

I would like to add another not-so-valid, the people making the biggest stink about this just happen to be the least objective who were against reform in the first place.

 

 

Hey! We agree!

 

1) Indeed. It is actually about giving the federal gov't more power, control, and direct dependency of more of the population.

2) Keep defending a proven failure with everything you've got. Tenacity is a great character trait.

 

I think those who are making the biggest stink see this as another example of how bloated, broken, inefficient, and downright corrupt our gov't is. I'm all for reform, but taking choices away from Americans is not the way to do it. Eventually, we are going to have to let people live with the repercussions of their decisions. We are waaay too broke to bail out everybody.



#5105 Msut77   Occam's Shank CAGiversary!   6251 Posts   Joined 14.1 Years Ago  

Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:55 PM

1) Show your work. Explain how the pre-reform healthcare systems was beneficial, try by comparing it comparing it another countries system. Use some metrics and don't just repeat vague buzzwords.

 

2) websites can be fixed. In one year the only people who will remember the hiccups are the clueless dead enders.



#5106 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:19 AM

1) Show your work. Explain how the pre-reform healthcare systems was beneficial, try by comparing it comparing it another countries system. Use some metrics and don't just repeat vague buzzwords.

 

2) websites can be fixed. In one year the only people who will remember the hiccups are the clueless dad lenders.

Is this guy seriously implying that we were worse off pre-obama care? Ok where are his numbers and metrics? All I see is buzzwords. 



#5107 Msut77   Occam's Shank CAGiversary!   6251 Posts   Joined 14.1 Years Ago  

Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:15 PM

Compared to other countries silky?
Was there a good reason our system cost more to cover less people?

#5108 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:26 PM

Compared to other countries silky?
Was there a good reason our system cost more to cover less people?

We are what, top 30? At least we were pre-Obama care. Now we cover "everyone" and yet I expect the quality to go down. 

 

Sure, how about government waste? How about special favors toward biggest campaign donors? You want everyone to be covered? Then healthcare needs to be cheaper, not more expensive. My own plan went up by about 20%. 



#5109 Msut77   Occam's Shank CAGiversary!   6251 Posts   Joined 14.1 Years Ago  

Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:38 PM

We are what, top 30?

 We were #1 in how much we pay and how many people we had not insured.

 

If you mean in overall quality, this your point? We are better than Paraguay?



#5110 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:42 PM

 We were #1 in how much we pay and how many people we had not insured.

 

If you mean in overall quality, this your point? We are better than Paraguay?

I do not dispute the level of efficiency. Cost and coverage is the problem, yes? Now do you think ACA will address both of these issues? 

 

Edit: http://www.weeklysta...are_764860.html



#5111 speedracer   Banned Banned   3735 Posts   Joined 15.1 Years Ago  

speedracer

Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:08 AM

We are what, top 30? At least we were pre-Obama care. Now we cover "everyone" and yet I expect the quality to go down. 

Only if you go to doctors that "everyone" goes to. So a bunch of patient mills pop up that ferret through the checkups and other easy shit (like suddenly now you can get just about any shot at a grocery store, you'd think they found the cure for shingles in the dairy aisle) and that's what Obamacare pays for. What's the problem?

 

I mean, *I* ain't going to an Obamacare doctor. Are you? Then who cares about the quality of the SR-22 of healthcare? If you value healthcare, you're going to buy your way up past the rabble so who gives a shit? 

 

And if you don't value healthcare...then...who gives a shit?



#5112 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:57 AM

Only if you go to doctors that "everyone" goes to. So a bunch of patient mills pop up that ferret through the checkups and other easy shit (like suddenly now you can get just about any shot at a grocery store, you'd think they found the cure for shingles in the dairy aisle) and that's what Obamacare pays for. What's the problem?

 

I mean, *I* ain't going to an Obamacare doctor. Are you? Then who cares about the quality of the SR-22 of healthcare? If you value healthcare, you're going to buy your way up past the rabble so who gives a shit? 

 

And if you don't value healthcare...then...who gives a shit?

I give a shit because I do not want to be forced into buying healthcare. I care because my bill went up by about 20%. 



#5113 Dr Mario Kart   SD/2D Defense Force CAGiversary!   10957 Posts   Joined 15.0 Years Ago  

Dr Mario Kart

Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:12 AM

There isnt a reality available where you are not forced into buying healthcare for others.



#5114 speedracer   Banned Banned   3735 Posts   Joined 15.1 Years Ago  

speedracer

Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:57 AM

I give a shit because I do not want to be forced into buying healthcare. I care because my bill went up by about 20%. 

 

 

There isnt a reality available where you are not forced into buying healthcare for others.

 

Do you not see this the same way, Mrs. Wear? You've been buying healthcare for others your entire life and your bill has been going up because of spiraling costs. This is the first serious attempt to deal with it. The hostility on philosophical grounds is understandable but it's reality. Even the Tea Partiest Tea Partier doesn't dare touch old people healthcare which means even they choose to let you pay for that. 



#5115 UncleBob  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

"[...]if you like your health plan, you will be able to keep your health plan." [...] "If %5Byou%5D already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance."

#5116 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:02 PM

Do you not see this the same way, Mrs. Wear? You've been buying healthcare for others your entire life and your bill has been going up because of spiraling costs. This is the first serious attempt to deal with it. The hostility on philosophical grounds is understandable but it's reality. Even the Tea Partiest Tea Partier doesn't dare touch old people healthcare which means even they choose to let you pay for that. 

Oh I know that ever since I turned 16 and had my job, I started to pay into the system. My taxes went towards medicare, social security and of course war. As I said numerous times throughout several threads, I believe the government has tried numerous times to help the needy but instead only made it worse. This country used to have a strong sense of community at a time but now that is replaced by a large hand of the government which takes from one group and gives it to the other. This is not just immoral but plain inefficient. Why do you think things like lasik surgery keeps dropping in price when other types of surgeries keep rising?  

 

There isnt a reality available where you are not forced into buying healthcare for others.

As in in this nation or worldwide? Wouldn't you agree that is a problem when we think in such a way?



#5117 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4628 Posts   Joined 14.0 Years Ago  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:26 PM

Oh I know that ever since I turned 16 and had my job, I started to pay into the system. My taxes went towards medicare, social security and of course war. As I said numerous times throughout several threads, I believe the government has tried numerous times to help the needy but instead only made it worse. This country used to have a strong sense of community at a time but now that is replaced by a large hand of the government which takes from one group and gives it to the other. This is not just immoral but plain inefficient. Why do you think things like lasik surgery keeps dropping in price when other types of surgeries keep rising?  

 

 

The idea that the US has historically had a strong sense of community is as much of a myth as Obama being a socialist. I'm sure you can hand pick a few examples which show a great sense of community (ie labor, social justice and helping thy neighbor) but we are no different than any other nation in the world in that respect. I think Obamacare sucks but not because of what is trying to do but rather because of all its shortcomings.

 

As in in this nation or worldwide? Wouldn't you agree that is a problem when we think in such a way?

 

How else would an insurance system work? Your only choice is of many healthy people to subsidize the cost of a few sick ones. Otherwise the system crumbles.



#5118 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 29 October 2013 - 06:52 PM

The idea that the US has historically had a strong sense of community is as much of a myth as Obama being a socialist. I'm sure you can hand pick a few examples which show a great sense of community (ie labor, social justice and helping thy neighbor) but we are no different than any other nation in the world in that respect. I think Obamacare sucks but not because of what is trying to do but rather because of all its shortcomings.

 

How else would an insurance system work? Your only choice is of many healthy people to subsidize the cost of a few sick ones. Otherwise the system crumbles.

 

 

 

I would disagree with you. I think communities were much stronger during WW2 and Great Depression. Possibly during colonial era as well. Other nations are quite different, I know because I come from another country.

 

So you are saying that is the only way we can have health insurance? Anything here works for an insurance company? Can you tell me if car, life or home insurance is subsidized by other customers instead of being determined by individual factors? 



#5119 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4628 Posts   Joined 14.0 Years Ago  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:34 PM

So you are saying that is the only way we can have health insurance? Anything here works for an insurance company? Can you tell me if car, life or home insurance is subsidized by other customers instead of being determined by individual factors? 

All insurance is subsidized by the group. The idea is that most folks who pay for insurance (be it health, auto or home) will rarely use it. For example, if you have never filed an insurance claim, the money (ie premium) you pay every year ends up subsidizing the cost of the claims made by others (also don't forget the profit for the insurance company). That's how insurance works and that's how it has always worked. It is merely a way to mitigate risk by spreading it over the greater whole.   



#5120 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4628 Posts   Joined 14.0 Years Ago  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 07:45 PM

I would disagree with you. I think communities were much stronger during WW2 and Great Depression. Possibly during colonial era as well. Other nations are quite different, I know because I come from another country.

I agree. When faced with adversity we have shown a propensity to unite. That however is not the norm.  



#5121 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:14 PM

All insurance is subsidized by the group. The idea is that most folks who pay for insurance (be it health, auto or home) will rarely use it. For example, if you have never filed an insurance claim, the money (ie premium) you pay every year ends up subsidizing the cost of the claims made by others (also don't forget the profit for the insurance company). That's how insurance works and that's how it has always worked. It is merely a way to mitigate risk by spreading it over the greater whole.   

Sure sure, yet it seems you are ok with the rising premiums. Surely you can agree that without unnecessary regulations and government involvement the prices would drop down, including for the very needy. 



#5122 Msut77   Occam's Shank CAGiversary!   6251 Posts   Joined 14.1 Years Ago  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 08:47 PM

You keep mentioning your premiums rising. Are you claiming it went up 20% in a year or since ACA passed?

 

You realize premium went up before it was passed right and full implementation hasn't occurred yet?



#5123 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4628 Posts   Joined 14.0 Years Ago  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:21 PM

Sure sure, yet it seems you are ok with the rising premiums. Surely you can agree that without unnecessary regulations and government involvement the prices would drop down, including for the very needy. 

Are you implying that premiums haven't been going up over the last decade? Because last I checked they have (health care costs rose 170% over the last decade in CA, 62% nation wide). I think it is fair to say that rising premiums are not a direct reaction/response to ACA.

 

IMO, healthcare is not an area where the free market works well in. The idea of caring for society as a whole (comprehensive healthcare) rich and poor, young and old, does not jive with free markets. The poor are not capable of paying even the lowest of premiums. The old require too much care. That's why such things as medicaid and medicare exist. The government has to step in and subsidize the industry. True "comprehensive" healthcare cannot be done for profit. At the end of the day someone will have to carry the burden of paying these costs.  



#5124 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1701 Posts   Joined 9.3 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:48 PM

You keep mentioning your premiums rising. Are you claiming it went up 20% in a year or since ACA passed?

 

You realize premium went up before it was passed right and full implementation hasn't occurred yet?

I received a letter sometime in September telling me price will go up sometime early next year and I am pretty sure they mentioned ACA. I wish I kept that letter. 

 

Are you implying that premiums haven't been going up over the last decade? Because last I checked they have (health care costs rose 170% over the last decade in CA, 62% nation wide). I think it is fair to say that rising premiums are not a direct reaction/response to ACA.

 

IMO, healthcare is not an area where the free market works well in. The idea of caring for society as a whole (comprehensive healthcare) rich and poor, young and old, does not jive with free markets. The poor are not capable of paying even the lowest of premiums. The old require too much care. That's why such things as medicaid and medicare exist. The government has to step in and subsidize the industry. True "comprehensive" healthcare cannot be done for profit. At the end of the day someone will have to carry the burden of paying these costs.  

No, I am not implying that. Yet we can not disregard the fact that ACA does have an effect.

 

I would have to disagree with you on that. I believe a free market with limited and smart regulations would be the most beneficial form. Unfortunately I do not know of a good example in which a country had an unregulated healthcare but I will say that the quality has decreased in the last 30-40 years as government became more intrusive. 

 

I recently needed a few fillings for my teeth and went to a dentist. She quoted me $3k so I said Fuck that and was seriously considering just flying to Asia and getting everything done over there which would still be cheaper after hotel, plane ticket and etc. Instead I did go to Mexico and had it done for $350. And no it was not some shitty place in a dark alley. So it makes on think what exactly is driving up the costs?



#5125 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4628 Posts   Joined 14.0 Years Ago  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:13 PM

I received a letter sometime in September telling me price will go up sometime early next year and I am pretty sure they mentioned ACA. I wish I kept that letter. 

 

No, I am not implying that. Yet we can not disregard the fact that ACA does have an effect.

 

I would have to disagree with you on that. I believe a free market with limited and smart regulations would be the most beneficial form. Unfortunately I do not know of a good example in which a country had an unregulated healthcare but I will say that the quality has decreased in the last 30-40 years as government became more intrusive. 

 

I recently needed a few fillings for my teeth and went to a dentist. She quoted me $3k so I said Fuck that and was seriously considering just flying to Asia and getting everything done over there which would still be cheaper after hotel, plane ticket and etc. Instead I did go to Mexico and had it done for $350. And no it was not some shitty place in a dark alley. So it makes on think what exactly is driving up the costs?

I think you'll have a hard time finding an example of a successful health care system based on free market principles but if you can feel free to share.



#5126 Msut77   Occam's Shank CAGiversary!   6251 Posts   Joined 14.1 Years Ago  

Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:36 PM

Ok so mr. wear has an insurance company that decided to get one last increase and blamed Obummer.

 

How is that evidence of anything?



#5127 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:05 AM

This thread has won my heart over. The fact that we've gotten to the point where the basic functioning and structure of insurance has to be explained. Priceless...

BTW, absolutely love the anecdote about first considering going to "Asia" then Mexico to get healthcare. Was the Mexico trip before or after they started their public run healthcare? Of course that "Asian country" was gonna be one that doesn't have a public run healthcare system, correct? Quick let us now which one that is.

Fact of the matter is nearly every first world country (and even some non-first work countries at this point) already have government run public healthcare options. Thankfully the giant health insurance companies already have the republicans and tea partiers to protect their very existence because we couldn't have the gubment running things, no not at all...

#5128 Dr Mario Kart   SD/2D Defense Force CAGiversary!   10957 Posts   Joined 15.0 Years Ago  

Dr Mario Kart

Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:30 AM

I'm even talking about the concept of insurance or risk pooling.  I'm talking about fundamentally how reality is constructed.  That casual interconnectedness make it impossible for you to avoid certain negative externality costs.  Even if you're not insured and dont wish to participate in a risk pool, actions of others (like having to seek medical care in an ER followed by medical bankruptcy) are going to be reflected in the cash price of health care should you ever have to use it (which is guaranteed).  Lets pretend that you are immortal and will never have to use the health care system for anything, ever and you also dont have insurance.  Your taxes are paying for some kind of health care subsidy in one system or another at various levels.  They are also paying for the health care of people who are incarcerated, which most but not all people are ok with.  

 

If you managed to avoid income or payroll taxes, a proportion of various other taxes go to general use, sales tax, trade tariffs (to the extent that we have them), property taxes.  Those taxes are distorting the market prices of things you do happen to buy (in an upward fashion).  There is also the negative externality of crime when people are not able to make ends meet, though we're starting to get real broad here.  The rabbit hole goes deep.  Even before you had to pay for the healthcare and food and lodging of that one guy who stole $1 from a bank so he could get healthcare, he also tied up police and the courts which also costs money.

 

Should you have to pay for the health care of others?  Perhaps not, but this isnt a very useful question, because theres not a plausible reality where you can avoid it.  The only question is should we all pay more, or less and how?  Every other country has decided that they want to pay less.



#5129 UncleBob  

Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

Thankfully the giant health insurance companies already have the republicans and tea partiers to protect their very existence because we couldn't have the gubment running things, no not at all...


Funny. I was pretty sure that virtually everyone who voted to pass this "Affordable Care Act" - which is some kind of twisted government/giant health insurance company collusion - had a (D) after their name... 
 

Those taxes are distorting the market prices of things you do happen to buy (in an upward fashion).


Yup. And now, folks are seeing their existing plans cancelled, being forced onto higher plans *and* get to pay subsidies for the insurance of other folks (which will be hidden in all those taxes you mentioned so that no one will really be able to estimate the true cost of the "Affordable Care Act"). Pretty genius plan, really.

Because last I checked they have (health care costs rose 170% over the last decade in CA, 62% nation wide). I think it is fair to say that rising premiums are not a direct reaction/response to ACA.


62% in a whole decade! That seems like a lot...

For months, Laszewski has warned that some consumers will face sticker shock. He recently got his own notice that he and his wife cannot keep their current policy, which he described as one of the best, so-called "Cadillac" plans offered for 2013. Now, he said, the best comparable plan he found for 2014 has a smaller doctor network, larger out-of-pocket costs, and a 66 percent premium increase.


...but not as much as 66% in a single year.

Obviously, this is just one guy's story. Should be interesting to see where the chips fall on this one.

#5130 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1020 Posts   Joined 12.3 Years Ago  

Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:58 PM

I just can't get past the fact that the gov't can force you to purchase a product versus paying a penalty or tax (what is Obama calling it NOW?). I won't cry if we do go single payer, mainly only the rich will suffer. But does it include a 52% tax on everyone's income? That article I posted about the Netherlands suggested as such. That does include college, some child care costs, vacation money (even for the unemployed!!!) as well as healthcare. I still wish the gov't would not decide what I need to spend my earned money on, but I guess that only works if we allow people to suffer their own poor choices. Freedom to be as selfish, idiotic, and short sighted with your life and money combined with a gov't that will provide other people's money to you from the cradle to the grave seems.......foolish and destructive.

 

Are the gov't run healthcare countries truly sustainable? I'm not saying our pre ACA system was, but it seems that there would be a tipping point at which it collapses when the tax revenue can no longer sustain the expenditures. Look at the transfer of welfare to disability when we "reformed" welfare. Did we actually accomplish anything or just rename the subsidies to the same people? Also, can people pay with their own money to expedite surgeries or procedures in gov't run healthcare if they feel that the gov't is "rationing"? I like that hard working, successful people can decide their own fates versus having the gov't decide what you can and can not get. It does suck to have to pay for healthcare twice though...