[irideabike]

that would be a triple post, and another crappy post by msut.

lulz at me missing that first post. the lack of sig on the next three messed me up

edit: good read here

http://www.nytimes.c...s/11health.html

AMA opposes the healthcare bill.

Edited by perdition(troy, 11 June 2009 - 06:27 PM.

[MSI Magus]

I seriously wish there were more Canadians weighing in here. Pretty much any people I ever talk to from "socialist" nations like Canada love their health care and say that its only stupid American right wingers portraying them as waiting months for care or all these other misconceptions. Most recent was a chick me and my fiancee were talking to online and thinking of meeting up with in person. After a month or so of talking to her off and on I asked about healthcare and she said that even with having not 1 but 2 freaking autistic children she had never had a problem and thanks God she isnt in the US where she would be saddled with debt and little to no help for her two sons.

Also I love how double sided people are here. Conservatives say the government can run anything well...but yet if a liberal says the military has done anything wrong they go off the deep end. People like Tivo and the topic creator would rather twist the truth and quote what they have heard from Sean Hannity vs actually getting out there and talking to people or reading something worthwhile.

Again if you want to hear what some of the great minds have to say from US residents to people from other nations, from those on the right to those on the left check out foreign affairs journal.

[Msut77]

that would be a triple post, and another crappy post by msut.

Learn to count.

[Snake2715]

As someone without any sort of insurance, i'd welcome any sort of plan which provided me some sort of coverage, no matter how good or bad it may be.

One thing i do wonder about though. If we had a federal free health care program, how many companies would still provide coverage as a company benefit?

None, why when you can get it free from the government?

Thus reducing the spread of risk the private carriers have, and increasing their prices more.

You all sit here like these companies are ripping everyone off.

There are RX for RA, and Crohns out there athat are $10,000 a pop and they are prescribed quarterly. So $40,000 in 4 treatments. No realistically the person getting those treatments has many other medical expenses, but you can bet your ass they are not paying $40,000 a year on medical insurance are they.

But somehow the insurance carrier that has to meet certain surplus funds, and liquid assets to liability ratios is the evil overcharging HMO. Its a spread of risk, some people pay in and get nothing or verylittle back, others get much more then they pay in.... its the entire concept of insurance.

[soulvengeance]

that would be a triple post, and another crappy post by msut.

edit: good read here

http://www.nytimes.c...s/11health.html

AMA opposes the healthcare bill.

I read that article too, an interesting little blurb in the middle:

"The A.M.A., an umbrella group for 180 medical societies, does not speak for all doctors. One group, Physicians for a National Health Program, supports a single-payer system of insurance, in which a single public agency would pay for health services, but most care would still be delivered by private doctors and hospitals. In recent years, some doctors have become so fed up with the administrative hassles of private insurance that they are looking for alternatives."

[Snake2715]

Can't even begin to froth at how much I hate American healthcare. Shitty rudimentary cancer care's what killed my mother in 6 months, and since PCOS isn't immediately fatal, no one gives a shit about my condition or even knows what it is. All doctors know is to prescribe drugs that cause cancer to prevent cancer and tell me to starve myself, and all insurance companies know is that it's genetic so I can go piss off.

So whatever the systems we have now are already deadly OP, take that shit-stirring FUD headline somewhere else.

So PCOS is fatal now? Poli cystic Ovarian syndrome (spelling may be wrong) correct? My wife has that. Yes the drugs can cause cancer, but from the information I have read its got a low fatality rate.

Are you trying to have kids or something? Plenty of people know what it is, maybe you need to get to an OB that cares if you feel they don't.

Take RA, Crohns, MS, etc... they cant prevent these either. You know what they say, here we know that RA/Crohns, is an overactive immune system issue, so instead of fixing it (cause we cant figure that out yet), lets beat the shit out of your immune system so you have less inflamation... so on top of feeling tired, and shitty, you run the risk of picking up many other diseases, and day to day sicknesses, with a compromised immune system.

There are a ton of these issues going on, with all sorts of diseases. Half of these diseases are most likely caused by all the shitty ass chemicals everyone,(including myself) put into our bodies on a daily basis.

Why by going to national health care do you think there will be some maricle cure for your issue? What will then be driving those companies to look for a solution, if they dont when they are all private? Its going to pay a lot less when the government tells them what they can sell the solution for.....

[Snake2715]

One fix to the system could be to make HMO's run as non-profits. Many claims are denied so the bottom line can be maintained. I understand that pharmaceutical and medical device companies use profits to research new products that will "help" more people but what do HMO's use their profits for? Other than paying statisticians to make new formulas that deny more people for pre-existing conditions or what not.

EDIT -- I know it's awfully socialist of me to question an individual corporation's motives and business practices but really what do they do with the money?

I can't speak on the states I dont write insurance on, as Blue Cross is actually broken up by state, but they all share networks...

BCBS of Michigan is "non profit"... let me tell you what that gets them.. They can manipulate the system to really drive out competing carriers with Small Group reform laws that they themselves wrote and then pushed through congress.

They can funnel money to their other owned susbidaries (Accident Fund, a Michigan Workers Compensation insurance carrier) and then use the funneled money to build new buildings, buy land, become more competitive, pay higher salaries, etc.

They get out of a lot of taxes as now they are "non profit" so they do not pay certian property or income taxes... all the while being one of the most expensive carriers in the state of Michigan.

Gotta love the non profit status and all the great things that come from that.

Edited by Snake2715, 11 June 2009 - 07:09 PM.

[MSI Magus]

BTW just want to add in before as per usual I duck out to prevent wasting my time arguing that its absoultly disgusting that the line we are hearing from every conservative too is not just the ignorant crap about Canada but more importantly that THEY dont want to be responsible for taking care of the sick or "why should it come out of my pocket". Due to my living off disabilty and being a "leach on the system" me and my fiancee only make about $40,000 a year combined. Id gladly cut that in half to $20,000 a year losing the other half to taxes if it meant that I could go to bed every night knowing that every man woman and child is feed, has water, we are moving towards a greener cleaner society and they have proper health care.

Sorry that I actually care about my fellow man enough to give out of my own pocket. Sorry I realize that we dont all need an HDTV in every room and a car for not just every adult in the household but every teenager. Sorry that I recognize its better for me to live in a smaller apartment and buy a few games less a year but help others.

Society should and will be judged by how we took care of our poor and sick. I can only hope that when that day of judgment comes people fighting to keep every last penny even if it means others dying meet a horrid end their self(yep im liberal but a cold hard one

[Snake2715]

Quadruple post and all of it piss poor.

Care to tell me why?

[depascal22]

I can speak on the states I dont write insurance on, as Blue Cross is actually broken up by state, but they all share networks...

BCBS of Michigan is "non profit"... let me tell you what that gets them.. They can manipulate the system to really drive out competing carriers with Small Group reform laws that they themselves wrote and then pushed through congress.

They can funnel money to their other owned susbidaries (Accident Fund, a Michigan Workers Compensation insurance carrier) and then use the funneled money to build new buildings, buy land, become more competitive, pay higher salaries, etc.

They get out of a lot of taxes as now they are "non profit" so they do not pay certian property or income taxes... all the while being one of the most expensive carriers in the state of Michigan.

Gotta love the non profit status and all the great things that come from that.

I would work to eliminate all those loopholes but you make very valid points. So how would you fix healthcare since you seem to have first hand knowledge?

[Msut77]

Care to tell me why?

I don't know why your posts are so piss poor, if I had to guess it seems that why you are certainly more energetic than the other posters you are equally dim. Now I can start on how your posts are so piss poor starting off with how you seem to believe that being able to get seen in an ER is a substitute for a working medical system.

[irideabike]

Msut is one of those people you know has no life.

[depascal22]

Msut is one of those people you know has no life.

We're talking politics on a cheap gaming site. NONE of us have a life.

[Msut77]

Msut is one of those people you know has no life.

At least I can count, one would think that would be vital to your bed-pan changing career but then here we are.

Are you going to turn into a bitter kvetcher because you get shown to be a moron with every post? Because ramstoria might get mad you are infringing on his turf.

[RAMSTORIA]

We're talking politics on a cheap gaming site. NONE of us have a life.

hey! im at work.

[irideabike]

hey! im at work.

ditto

[depascal22]

So you're at work and talking politics on a gaming website. I'm sorry. Please go ahead with your "work".

[mykevermin]

et trois.

[Snake2715]

I don't know why your posts are so piss poor, if I had to guess it seems that why you are certainly more energetic than the other posters you are equally dim. Now I can start on how your posts are so piss poor starting off with how you seem to believe that being able to get seen in an ER is a substitute for a working medical system.

So you started, didn't back it up with examples of these * working health care systems, and you never finished with anything at all... and my posts are piss poor?

*edited

I find it hard to believe that any one system works for everyone.


depascal22,

I don't have an answer as how to fix the system. I see where people are suffering and then again where companies (small business) that could offer insurance, now cant afford to. I see on a daily basis peoples lives it effects, and have been through both ends of this personally.

My brother was in a car accident and almost died, had to have brain surgery and literally half of his face is paralyzed to this day (nerve damage). He had no health insurance at the time.... actually he had been paying for health insurance for 45 days, but his union was 6 days away from starting his medical insurance when the accident happened, so he had no coverage....

On the other end of the spectrum I see people that are married and have 5-6 kids get on Blue Cross plans for $400 a month and get $10,000's of coverage each year for a measly 4,980 in annual payments. I see people that have food stamps and get Medicaid coverage pull up to pay their auto insurance in their escelades, and pay from a rubber banded wad of cash.

There is not going to ever be a perfect system. There never is. I think there needs to be something put into place, but I don't have the complete answer. In the example above my Brother owed more than $200,000 in medical bills, yet he was making too much for Medicaid help (barely). So its following him around, and he cant pay that back. There is a huge trickle effect to that accident and the bills. His credit is effected, which effects what he can buy. He could have had better treatment had he had medical coverage, and his nerve damage may have been reduced. He may not have lost his job due to the physical thereapy he had to go through had the accident have never happened.

There will always be people that feel strongly either way, and have personal experience to back it up. Its the same for anything else from brands of cars, to paying with paypal, to selling on ebay vs amazon vs craigslist, etc. To shopping for US produced goods over imports.

What I guess I get stirred up about is that people on both sides are blind to the opposite argument. There are Federal laws in place, and then each state has mandated their own set of laws. I don't write insurance in PA, but as Koggit (I think) mentioned apparently they don't allow coverage for Pre X conditions ever... That seems crazy as I believe the Fedearal mandate is 18 months max, for Pre existing condition exclusion. Some carriers in the 5 states I write in have 6 months self imposed, and some dont exclude conditions at all.

The problem with the government stepping in is there are going to be huge impacts on both sides of the table. I have this feeling that its going to sweep through and no one is going to look into the details of the plan. This just happened with the bail outs and rescues, etc.

Actually it even happened with COBRA benefits. There was a sweeping reform put through and small businesses have to pay 65% subsidy to those employees that were laid off from September forward. They are to pay 65% of the COBRA premiums on behalf of those employees for up to 9 months. This was to help the growing number of people that got laid off and could not afford COBRA, yet needed the coverage.

Want to know that it was messed up for quite a few months, and there are still COBRA administrators that are being cautious at how to handle it... why you may ask...

With COBRA there is a 2% admin fee that is to be collected on top of the 100% medical insurance premium. This goes to the administrator of the COBRA plan, whether that is the small business or a TPA. When the reform passed it overlooked this fee and didn't clarify if the 65% paid by the employer included that 2% fee. Sounds simple, but think of the consequences of that oversight. Its still causing confusion because 65% of 100% is different than 65% of 102%.

I have no confidence in the Government being able to pass anything that works in short order. I really don't.

Edited by Snake2715, 11 June 2009 - 07:10 PM.

[Msut77]

So you started, didnt back it up with examples of these mythical working healthcare systems, and you never finished with anything at all... and my posts are piss poor?

Mythical?

[depascal22]

How do you get facts and examples from a myth?

[Snake2715]

How do you get facts and examples from a myth?

Mythical?

First it was an expression. There were no examples or facts from you. Do I need to go back and edit that word, is it really going to hold up a response from you Msut? Perfect, is that a better choice, or great, exceptional, balanced, fair....?


It seems you chose the word "working" for your response. I have edited my post as to get some real response from you.

The current system "works", maybe not for everyone, but its "working". I think your choice of word allows you to just duck around on the internet. I could care less if you or I win any piss contest on the internet. Hell it seems for the past decade the government has been "working" on a solution....

You come on and start your response by calling me dim. I have not insulted you, nor do I really need to. I guess this is not the place to have a discussion on the subject. But I am still willing to listen to anyone I can on it. It effects me personally on many levels, as it does a lot of people.

I am by no means an expert in this field. I have worked for 10 years in Health insurance, previous to that I worked for 4 years in a nursing home. I read about the subject with more regularity than I ever had before. I have many, many personal experiences between myself, family, friends, insureds, etc.




to depascal22,

I answered your question in my post on page 4, post # 79. I just revised it so you may have missed it once Msut answered and the thread went to page 5.

Edited by Snake2715, 11 June 2009 - 07:19 PM.

[Msut77]

First it was an expression.

An expression of ignorance? Stupidity?

There were no examples or facts.

Of non-mythical working healthcare systems in other countries? Really?

You want me to hold your hand or tie your shoes for you as well?

Perfect, is that a better choice, or great, exceptional, balanced, fair....

No one has argued that other systems are "perfect", better yes but if you want to argue a strawman go somewhere else.

The current system "works", maybe not for everyone, but its "working"

There is no way in hell I am going to spot you millions of Americans in order for you to pretend you have an argument.

You come on and start your response by calling me dim.

You are taking the George W. Bush position on ER as healthcare.

[Snake2715]

Msut77,

Yup, I am both ingorant and stupid. Thank you.

We will disagree then, thanks for your reasoning to that. Sorry if I missed it in another thread, or another news article you read some time during your life.

Since there seems to be an answer out there, I am surprised you have not been more proactive in getting this news to the government. I suspect there is this working system that we should copy exactly, no?

Better... thats your choice of word now? See how this thread gets jacked up with pissing contests. I rarely post in the politics threads for this very reason.

Let me ask one question.
Your argument for better had better be pretty damn good, because all sides of this "reform" have people just like you giving example, after example, as to why they are right. To say something is better with no possible downsides seems a little silly to me.

Can our system get better, sure. Will a government run health system be better, thats open to discussion. I thought this thread was for that exact reason. I was wrong.

Maybe you should go back and prove how dim I am as I probably misspelled quite a bit. I know I used punctuation incorrectly. If my single Mother would have had more money to put me into a good college this would probably not be a problem... but then she was working and trying to pay medical insurance so we had a choice of being dead/sick or going to a good college. I see now how your side of the argument will positively effect everyone involved for the best. I will concede. Thanks for sharing.

[soulvengeance]

Msut77,

Yup, I am both ingorant and stupid. Thank you.

We will disagree then, thanks for your reasoning to that. Sorry if I missed it in another thread, or another news article you read some time during your life.

Since there seems to be an answer out there, I am surprised you have not been more proactive in getting this news to the government. I suspect there is this working system that we should copy exactly, no?

Better... thats your choice of word now? See how this thread gets jacked up with pissing contests. I rarely post in the politics threads for this very reason.

Let me ask one question.
Your argument for better had better be pretty damn good, because all sides of this "reform" have people just like you giving example, after example, as to why they are right. To say something is better with no possible downsides seems a little silly to me.

Can our system get better, sure. Will a government run health system be better, thats open to discussion. I thought this thread was for that exact reason. I was wrong.

Maybe you should go back and prove how dim I am as I probably misspelled quite a bit. I know I used punctuation incorrectly. If my single Mother would have had more money to put me into a good college this would probably not be a problem... but then she was working and trying to pay medical insurance so we had a choice of being dead/sick or going to a good college. I see now how your side of the argument will positively effect everyone involved for the best. I will concede. Thanks for sharing.

Haha, it does get pretty lively in here, that's just the way it is. But anyway, I'll concede to you that the system is working, but if you want to use that argument, it technically works in Canada too, just not perfectly like the U.S. system. All I'm saying is that we should look at it, because it definitely could work better. How about free basic/preventative healthcare, and maybe an option to purchase better healthcare for more serious problems? I know there's a lot of problems with inequality there, but I'm just throwing it out there to see what people think.

[Snake2715]

Haha, it does get pretty lively in here, that's just the way it is. But anyway, I'll concede to you that the system is working, but if you want to use that argument, it technically works in Canada too,

Thats the issue, none of them I have read about, or discussed seem to really work throughout. Someone is getting shorted.


If I were to say we need one change no matter what (and for the record we need more than that). I think we need to get away from individual state mandates. Lets make it a clean Federal mandate on healthcare to start. That I think is going to be the hardest thing for the government to tackle, is looking at each state and how they are going to effect its rules and regulations.

For instance in regards to group coverage, Florida recently mandated that healthcare can only be increased by 15% for "underwritten carriers". They saw this as a solution for stopping the evil healthcare carriers from raising rates to those with bad experience, or types of business (SIC), age/demographics, etc.

Now that that has been in place a few things happened. Some carriers flat out left, leaving less competition. The other carriers that stayed came back with revised plans (and a higher price for these new plans), grandfathered their old planholders in, but are cutting coverages.

The most recent thing that has happened is the carriers that are now re entering the state are raising their base rates to compensate for the 15% maximum rate up. So those people that had good health are now not able to afford the coverage becuase the base rates are so high... now what is happening is those people with good health are choosing to not take coverage, leaving adverse selection, once again, for the health insurance carriers... Domino effect for the group health insurance in that state as its went through the roof.

[Koggit]

from the responses here i'm convinced <5% even know what it is the democrats are proposing.. it's not socialized, it's not nationalized, it's nothing like canada's.. seeing a whole lot of arguments here about "oh the government does things inefficiently so nationalized care would suck", which isn't applicable at all...

obama/dems want:
- forced healthcare, everyone has coverage, people without insurance are fined, like car insurance.

- subsidies for low-income families (up to some crazy-high income bracket, over 100k i think) to get insurance

- a self-sufficient federal insurance program as an option, to compete with private insurers

it's mostly geared toward lowering how much we spend on healthcare as a nation, and partially to getting basic care to the poor. it's amazing how many people will make up their mind about something and begin moaning without even knowing what's going on.

[Msut77]

I suspect there is this working system that we should copy exactly, no?

I am not very good at handling the level of butthurt you have displayed but anyhoo...

There is no particular system we have to copy "exactly", as koggit pointed out there are different ways of going about it they aren't all socialized at least to any worthwhile meaning of the word.

Technically even if we do copy another system there is no reason we would have to make the same if any mistake they happen to be making or made.

Let me ask one question.

Ok.

Your argument for better had better be pretty damn good, because all sides of this "reform" have people just like you giving example, after example, as to why they are right. To say something is better with no possible downsides seems a little silly to me.

That is not a question.

By "better" I am referring to the fact that many other countries manage to spend a whole lot less on healthcare than we do while covering everyone. Most of these countries provide better quality care on the whole than in America.

Also this isn't so much about the poor as some try to pretend it is, there are many solidly middle class people who are getting the short end.

When I say better I mean better any way a sane person would define it unlike the way you seem to be defining "working".

[JolietJake]

None, why when you can get it free from the government?

Thus reducing the spread of risk the private carriers have, and increasing their prices more.

You all sit here like these companies are ripping everyone off.

There are RX for RA, and Crohns out there athat are $10,000 a pop and they are prescribed quarterly. So $40,000 in 4 treatments. No realistically the person getting those treatments has many other medical expenses, but you can bet your ass they are not paying $40,000 a year on medical insurance are they.

But somehow the insurance carrier that has to meet certain surplus funds, and liquid assets to liability ratios is the evil overcharging HMO. Its a spread of risk, some people pay in and get nothing or verylittle back, others get much more then they pay in.... its the entire concept of insurance.

Well what do you suggest for someone like myself who can't get insured because of a pre existing condition then? I'm uninsurable because they won't make any money off of me. My health has been broken down to a matter of profit for a company.

Now before you paint me as some sort of anti corporate liberal, i was technically a business major in school, i've had business clases, i understand the company's responsibliities. However, that matters little to me when i'm sick and can't afford to see a doctor. You want your private insurance, then be my guest, but i'll take whatever the i can get at this point.

edit- Wanted to add that my own general physician hates insurance companies himself, completely hates dealing with them. They dictate how he cares for his patients and he despises that. I'd imagine he'd love any system which allowed him to prescribe what he felt was the best medicine for the situation.

[The Crotch]

I seriously wish there were more Canadians weighing in here.

Kinda busy here. You know, repairing the nation's forests. Healing the Earth. Destroying my body so that you guys can wipe your asses.

Ungrateful pricks.

Pretty much any people I ever talk to from "socialist" nations like Canada love their health care and say that its only stupid American right wingers portraying them as waiting months for care or all these other misconceptions. Most recent was a chick me and my fiancee were talking to online and thinking of meeting up with in person. After a month or so of talking to her off and on I asked about healthcare and she said that even with having not 1 but 2 freaking autistic children she had never had a problem and thanks God she isnt in the US where she would be saddled with debt and little to no help for her two sons.

Well, lesse. I come from a pretty poor-ish family. My older brother and I both had a decent pile of medical problems when we were younger, and were it not for Damned Socialism!, we would have been fucked eight ways from Sunday.

But hey, anecdotal shit is anecdotal. Still better'n nothing, and I'm a little pressed for time, yeah?