What Charges Are Appropriate in Clementi's Death

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PISCATAWAY, N.J. — Bias-crime charges are possible against two Rutgers University students accused of secretly streaming online video of a sexual encounter between a man and a male classmate who later jumped off a bridge, prosecutors said Thursday.

The body of Tyler Clementi, 18, was identified Thursday after being found in the Hudson River a day before. His roommate, Dharun Ravi, and fellow Rutgers freshman Molly Wei, both 18, have been charged with invading his privacy.

Middlesex County prosecutors say that they used a webcam to surreptitiously transmit a live image of Clementi having sex Sept. 19 and that Ravi tried to webcast a second encounter on Sept. 21, the day before Clementi's suicide.

"Now that two individuals have been charged with invasion of privacy, we will be making every effort to assess whether bias played a role in the incident, and, if so, we will bring appropriate charges," prosecutor Bruce J. Kaplan said in a news release.

Collecting or viewing sexual images without consent is a fourth-degree crime, and transmitting them is a third-degree crime with a maximum prison term of five years. A lawyer for Ravi, of Plainsboro, did not return a message seeking comment, and it was unclear whether Wei, of Princeton, had a lawyer.

A lawyer for Clementi's family has not responded to questions of whether Clementi was open about his sexual orientation. The suspects' former classmates at West Windsor Plainsboro North High School remembered them both as good people who were not homophobic.

Derek Yan, 16, a junior and co-captain of the school's Ultimate Frisbee team — a position Ravi held his senior year — said his friend had no problems with gay people.

"He had gay friends," Yan told The Associated Press. Yan said that he had chatted online with Ravi about what college life was like and that Ravi liked Clementi, his roommate.
"He said he was lucky to have a good roommate," Yan said. "He said his roomate was cool."

Ravi's parents even bought an ad in the pages of his senior yearbook expressing their admiration for his character and kindness.

"Dear Dharun, it has been a pleasure watching you grow into a caring and responsible person," they wrote. "Dharun, we will always be there to love and support you every step of the way. Love, Mom, Dad and Jay."

Clementi had just started at Rutgers, which bills itself as the state university of New Jersey, and was a talented violinist whose life revolved around music, friends and mentors said.

"Musically, Tyler was destined for greatness," childhood friend Mary Alcaro, who played in a summer music academy with him, said Thursday in an e-mail to the AP. "I've never heard anyone make a violin sing the way he did."

Ed Schmiedecke, the recently retired music director at Ridgewood High School, from which Clementi graduated this year, called Clementi "a terrific musician, and a very promising, hardworking young man."

Clementi's death also stirred outrage at his new school, even if he wasn't very well known.
"The notion that video of Tyler doing what he was doing can be considered a spectacle is just heinous," said Jordan Gochman, 19, of Jackson, who didn't know Clementi. "It's intolerant, it's upsetting, it makes it seem that being gay is something that is wrong and can be considered laughable."

Alcaro, who grew up with Clementi in Bergen County, west of New York City, said that "no person should have to endure such shame and humiliation."

"I'm disillusioned that in a generation that prides itself on acceptance and tolerance, people can still be so closed-minded and downright hateful," she said.

The suicide sent echoes throughout New Jersey, to the highest levels. Assemblywomen Valerie Vainieri Huttle, a Bergen Democrat, and Mary Pat Angelini, a Monmouth Republican, said they would introduce legislation to strengthen the state's anti-bullying law.

Gov. Chris Christie, a former federal prosecutor, sent a warning to students who taunt or pull pranks on others.

"You don't know the feelings of the people on the receiving end of that," he said. "You can't possibly know. There might be some people who could take that type of treatment and deal with it, and there might be others, as this young man obviously was, who are much more greatly affected by it."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...NbOUJOaBvP10z2VkrP_AD9IIG9J81?docId=D9IIG9J81

So what do you guys think would be an appropriate charge against Ravi and Wei? Should Ravi get a tougher charge since he was the one that placed the web cam? Should there even be charges above invasion of privacy? Is it a hate crime? Seems like this is gonna get pretty ugly as far as how these two individuals are charge. I think that people are going to want a lot heavier charges than the DA will be able to produce.

Personally, I think simply charging Ravi with invasion of privacy isn't enough, based on what he tweeted and sharing the feed with others. Wei doesn't seem like she should be charged with anything beyond invasion of privacy, at least from the information I've read so far.
 
Yeah definitely invasion of privacy, maybe hate crime since it seemed he knew the roommate was gay beforehand. I guess it'd be hard to prove he did the camera thing because he was gay.

Some underlying issues with Clemente though, to kill yourself after something like that.
 
[quote name='IRHari']
Some underlying issues with Clemente though, to kill yourself after something like that.[/QUOTE]

Some (alleged) forum posts by Clementi on a gay forum:

screen_shot_2010-09-29_at_9.19.03_pm.png

screen_shot_2010-09-29_at_9.19.26_pm.png

screen_shot_2010-09-29_at_9.19.49_pm.png

screen_shot_2010-09-29_at_9.20.04_pm.png

screen_shot_2010-09-29_at_9.20.29_pm.png
http://gawker.com/5651659/is-this-webcam-spying-victim-tyler-clementis-last-call-for-help

Hard to believe this same person committed suicide over the incident. He seemed so level-headed about it.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Yeah definitely invasion of privacy, maybe hate crime since it seemed he knew the roommate was gay beforehand. I guess it'd be hard to prove he did the camera thing because he was gay.

Some underlying issues with Clemente though, to kill yourself after something like that.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure that would be at the heart of the defense (depending on the charges).

[quote name='TheShepherdSauce']Some (alleged) forum posts by Clementi on a gay forum:

http://gawker.com/5651659/is-this-webcam-spying-victim-tyler-clementis-last-call-for-help

Hard to believe this same person committed suicide over the incident. He seemed so level-headed about it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah he does, makes you wonder what happened in between the incident and the suicide.
 
Yeah I read that on Gawker, seems like that website was tweeted by the roommate and that's how he realized his roommate was gay.

Like RAM said, theres this gap between the incident and the suicide. I don't see anything in those forum posts that indicates suicidal thoughts or behavior.

Very sad story though.
 
[quote name='TheShepherdSauce']Some (alleged) forum posts by Clementi on a gay forum:

http://gawker.com/5651659/is-this-webcam-spying-victim-tyler-clementis-last-call-for-help

Hard to believe this same person committed suicide over the incident. He seemed so level-headed about it.[/QUOTE]

Eh, I think it's pretty easy to disguise your emotions while posting on an anonymous forum.

I suppose it's fully possible more stuff happened that day, but it also could've been one of those "straw that breaks the camel's back" things, sadly. There's a reason homosexual teens are significantly more likely to kill themselves than their straight counterparts. Extremely sad given this day and age.
 
I bet that Ravi kid is wondering what the fuck happened.

One minute he's playing BMOC, now he's ground zero for a media shitstorm. Not to mention the guaranteed expulsion, criminal charges, potential civil charges, and damage to his personal record.

Because think about it - the same internet he used to humiliate his roomate will now forever tie him to this whole sordid affair. Anytime anyone Googles his name, this incident will always be the top result. Hardly impressive, especially if you're interviewing.

Ain't karma a bitch.
 
He seems level-headed but it's not implausible unfortunately. Reading the messages, you get the sense that he feels trapped and like no one will care. Those are two big red flags in suicidal thoughts.
 
[quote name='WeaponX2099']So The idea was just to catch him (Tyler Clementi) fucking, period? No gay bias at first?[/QUOTE]

The roommate knew he was gay before he did it and had several comments on his Twitter regarding it. It's possible there was a gay bias, but it hasn't been proven one way or the other. The story I read earlier said he could be charged with a hate crime.

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']Seriously, how confident are they this was a suicide? I've read his posts and he seems so level headed about it. There's not a tinge of panic in him.[/QUOTE]

He posted on his Facebook that he was going to do it beforehand. :(
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']Seriously, how confident are they this was a suicide? I've read his posts and he seems so level headed about it. There's not a tinge of panic in him.[/QUOTE]

the facebook post as mentioned above. plus there were witnesses on the bridge when he jumped. apparently he jumped quick because they said there was no time to try and talk him out of it.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Murder and hate crime are appropriate charges. An example has to be made for all the bigots stuck in the 50s in this country.[/QUOTE]

Murder's never gonna happen, even if the DA could somehow find a grand jury to indict him there's no way to show those 2 were the proximate cause of his death. The outside shot the DA could charge on would be:

New York Penal Code Section 125.25 Murder in the Second Degree

A person is guilty of murder of the second degree when:

Subsection 2) Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person, and thereby causes the death of another person

It would have to be one hell of an argument with LOTS of supporting cases to show their conduct was a "depraved indifference to human life." Then you'd get to the other big sticking point any defense attorney worth his salt would argue and that would be causation.



I agree what they did was wrong and I am sure they violated some criminal statute they fully deserve to be punished for but murder wasn't one of them.
 
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[quote name='IRHari']Is New York = New Jersey now?[/QUOTE]

New Jersey should just be fucking officially annexed to NY at this point. No one would miss it.
 
bump for a story i just read.

The roommate of the Rutgers University freshmen who killed himself after his sexual encounter with another man was broadcast online was indicted Wednesday on privacy and bias charges, the prosecutor of Middlesex County in New Jersey announced.

A grand jury indicted Dharun Ravi, 19, on 15 counts including invasion of privacy, bias intimidation, tampering with physical evidence, witness tampering, and hindering apprehension or prosecution.



http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/04/20/new.jersey.rutgers.indictment/
 
interesting that the two defendants are minorities. Typically white racist america twisting the law to use it against the people that it was suppose to protect. You can bet that if those two were white, this wouldn't even be an issue. Goddamn white racist america.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Harassment.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Harassment, and some privacy charge (which may be tough to nail because they shared the room) or something along the lines of recording someone without their approval, which is also tough because it was streamed, not recorded.
 
I'm for as much as they can charge this guy with minus hate crime. If the charges are to be harsher then pass legislation that creates more jail time for said offenses NOT a thought crime styled idea.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Murder and hate crime are appropriate charges. An example has to be made for all the bigots stuck in the 50s in this country.[/QUOTE]

Murder!?

Really? Murder? This kid ought to be charged with Murder?? Wow. You really are a fucking idiot aren't you.

Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of murder before you make yourself sound any more stupid.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']Murder!?

Really? Murder? This kid ought to be charged with Murder?? Wow. You really are a fucking idiot aren't you.

Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of murder before you make yourself sound any more stupid.[/QUOTE]

I know Knight and she's not an idiot. I imagine this case infuriates her and I don't begrudge her gut reaction.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']I know Knight and she's not an idiot. I imagine this case infuriates her and I don't begrudge her gut reaction.[/QUOTE]

It's fine to have a gut reaction, but accusing this guy of murder is pretty outrageous. I know we're not judges, just a bunch of people that like cheap videogames, but it lacks any sort of logic or reasoning, much like those that tormented the gay kid.
 
Yanno, I HAVE to chime in on all this crap.

Thankfully, the media has stopped scouting for these gays who commit suicide since at one point it was a"HOT TOPIC".

Bullying and teasing and being a prick is all apart of life. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is.
These people who killed themselves...were NOT stable anyway. If it wasn't teasing, or in this case of videotaping Clementi, it would have been something else. Not getting that job he wanted, getting fired from a job he leaved, his first real heartbreak, death of a parent.. ETC.

What if he was fired -- for legit reasons -- from whatever his dream job may have been? Do we sue the company and arrest the boss & people in HR? Or wait, simply because he's gay, it's different?

Come on.

All of this bullshit has spawned this stupid "IT GETS BETTER" program.
I was teased for being fat.
I was called gay and was teased sometimes.
I have been "left out" on group and friend events for different reasons.

Life sucks, but I'm still here.

What this program and any protection laws that are created in favor of gays, are truly going to make us the new black people. We will do what we want and blame everyone for it... and we'll get away with it. We need not that to happen.

People who kill themselves for whatEVER reason, are unstable. Perhaps if he was embarrassed for being taped bangin a chick and killed himself over this, people wouldn't react this way... but because he's gay it's a huge issue?!?!

ER, RAGE.
 
[quote name='lilboo'][like] black people. We will do what we want and blame everyone for it... and we'll get away with it.[/QUOTE]

might want to rethink this statement.
 
After a combination of growing up and working in Philly for the last 25 years, I stick to my word. I know people who are ultra-liberal will refuse to see and hear things. But it's also that kind of attitude which does allow minority groups to have special rights -- not equal.

My last job was so bad because of it, that I had to quit. I've seen minorities get fired and 2 months later they are somehow re-hired. I've seen them come and go as they pleased at work, get reprimanded, but never anything beyond that. However, a co-worker was late ~5 times and was fired. This was within a 3 month period. Though I do think it's pretty fair, there were others that were beyond 5x.. in less then 3 months.

But that's a whooooooooole other topic.
Just so glad to be out of that environment and have my eyes open now. Though you + any ultra liberal will tell me I'm wrong.. despite me SEEING these things.
 
[quote name='IRHari']So as a gay person, you feel like you've never been treated differently because of it?[/QUOTE]

Sure, but am I supposed to get EQUAL treatment or SPECIAL treatment? See people forget that there IS a difference.
No, I don't want to start filling out "STRAIGHT - BI - GAY" on a job application, so I can get a job via affirmative action. I rather get a job based on me.

But I have also been treated differently because I AM just straight up weird sometimes. I HAVE been treated differently because I am an atheist.

EQUALITY, not SPECIAL treatment.
 
[quote name='lilboo']After a combination of growing up and working in Philly for the last 25 years, I stick to my word.[/QUOTE]

Class, not race. If you're from South Jersey, you're either from Camden, or you're from the 'burbs. And I know you're not from Camden. Prolly some Cherry Hill privilege, I bet.

There's a lot of trash in and around Philly, I'll grant you that. But I'll be damned if it isn't the most diverse, rainbow coalition of undereducated, lazy-ass pigs I've ever seen. If you want to point to an entitlement philosophy, and you come from a privileged, largely white middle-class background, yeah, then it's easy to point to blacks as anomalous. Because you get to observe from a safe distance, and one that's never really had to be engaged and involved.

I know a lot of kids from suburban Jersey who think like you do. Largely the contact hypothesis at work. Spoiled white kids of privilege whose parents won't let them near the city. The way you talk about your meager work experience as if it's gospel truth leads me to think that you're no different than them.
 
I grew up IN south philadelphia. I lived there for 18 years before we moved to NJ.
So.. I live in NJ. Not from there.
 
[quote name='lilboo']After a combination of growing up and working in Philly for the last 25 years, I stick to my word. I know people who are ultra-liberal will refuse to see and hear things. But it's also that kind of attitude which does allow minority groups to have special rights -- not equal.

My last job was so bad because of it, that I had to quit. I've seen minorities get fired and 2 months later they are somehow re-hired. I've seen them come and go as they pleased at work, get reprimanded, but never anything beyond that. However, a co-worker was late ~5 times and was fired. This was within a 3 month period. Though I do think it's pretty fair, there were others that were beyond 5x.. in less then 3 months.

But that's a whooooooooole other topic.
Just so glad to be out of that environment and have my eyes open now. Though you + any ultra liberal will tell me I'm wrong.. despite me SEEING these things.[/QUOTE]

Eh, I've mostly seen white people on welfare, yet I don't generalize my experience to it being representative of the whole population.
 
Affirmative action is designed to actively correct what these days seems to be a mostly passive problem. Meaning that active discrimination isn't as common as it once was, but the passive biased people don't even know they have still effects society. so until that is eliminated, we have to correct it some way.

boo simply sees people being lazy asses and extrapolates that out to represent an entire race of people, which is ridiculous. I could just as easily say I've seen a bunch of lazy gay men and hey, all gay men are lazy bums, there ya go. It's just ridiculous, nothing liberal about it.
 
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