[berzirk]

Discuss!

http://latimesblogs....epublicans.html

http://www.foxnews.c...to-ban-mosques/

http://thinkprogress...d-constitution/


I wonder if he thinks communities should have voted on whether or not to extend voting rights to blacks. I think he hates us for our freedoms.

Edited by berzirk, 18 July 2011 - 08:26 PM.

[demarcation1389]

I think he's riling up the base to the net benefit of the eventual Republican nominee. Which pretty clearly won't be him.

[IRHari]

Every time he mentions Islam he talks about Sharia law. I just don't see evidence that the extremist version of Sharia law is really pervasive in the American Muslim community.

[Cantatus]

"Sharia law" is the new "jihad". It's a boogeyman term that can be thrown around to rile people up who have no idea what it is nor why it is extremely likely for America to suddenly be a country that follows it.

[berzirk]

"sharia law" is the new "jihad". It's a boogeyman term that can be thrown around to rile people up who have no idea what it is nor why it is extremely likely for america to suddenly be a country that follows it.

PRECISELY! Other buzzwords: "Islamists", "Jihadists". Oh the best one, "Dhimmi". If you hear someone discuss Islam, and they bring up "Dhimmitude", you can immediately dismiss them as an idiot.

[yahoosale14]

why isn't saint an option /s? any community has the right to reject plans for any building with some small work to find an obscure code it violates and other means.

your comment about blacks is clearly bigoted, unrelated, and uncalled for.

[berzirk]

It's a write-in poll. Yours is noted. Unless we collectively decide to vote, and throw out your opinion.

[MSI Magus]

I am going to go with asshole bigot.

[Feeding the Abscess]

His appearance on Stossel was epic in its hilarity.

[Msut77]

why isn't saint an option /s? any community has the right to reject plans for any building with some small work to find an obscure code it violates and other means.

your comment about blacks is clearly bigoted, unrelated, and uncalled for.

wut?

[cochesecochese]

A little from column A, a little from column B.

[dohdough]

The only reason why Cain is getting ANY traction is because he gives racist teabaggers(I know, redundant;)) the impression that they're not racist because they happen to "support" what this particular black man is saying...kinda like Michael Steele, but less goofy, so to speak...well, goofy in different ways anyway.

tl;dr: I'm not racist because I have a friend, co-worker, neighbor, ideologue that's black...and Cain happens to be that black.

[IRHari]

The only reason why Cain is getting ANY traction is because he gives racist teabaggers(I know, redundant) the impression that they're not racist because they happen to "support" what this particular black man is saying

You won't believe how many times I've seen the argument that Obama won because white liberal guilt made people vote for him. I guess you're saying this is the other side of the coin?

[UncleBob]

Well, he can't be racist because he's black. I've learned that from this forum.

With that said, I thought I'd be throwing some support behind Cain this year. With his anti-Islam remarks earlier this year, I withdrew any support I had for him. :(

Go Ron Paul?

[Msut77]

A little from column A, a little from column B.

All of the above is a good answer.

[dohdough]

You won't believe how many times I've seen the argument that Obama won because white liberal guilt made people vote for him. I guess you're saying this is the other side of the coin?

The simple answer is yes, but I'd argue that there's more than one reason for Obama's win, whereas the only reason why Cain is in the spotlight is because he's the token black guy. The things he's said have been said by better.

[MSI Magus]

Well, he can't be racist because he's black. I've learned that from this forum.

With that said, I thought I'd be throwing some support behind Cain this year. With his anti-Islam remarks earlier this year, I withdrew any support I had for him. :(

Go Ron Paul?

People in this topic seem to be saying he is racist despite being black. The way you twist things some time is mind blowing.

[dohdough]

People in this topic seem to be saying he is racist despite being black. The way you twist things some time is mind blowing.

Actually, that was a jab at me. The short of it is that racism is about power, not just prejudice, so black people can't be racist because they lack institutional power, but that doesn't mean that they can't reproduce or perpetuate white supremacy aka racism. Using this framework, you could say that Cain is prejudiced, but not racist.

Now one could say that he's a religious bigot AND an asshole, but you couldn't say that he's bigoted about race...at least on this level of discussion. Personally, as an atheist and someone that knows a little something about colonization, it could also be argued that his religious bigotry is an effect of the use of religion to make slaves more amenable to their condition. But like I said, that's a little too deep for what we're talking about here.

edit: I've also been following the Cain movement since the beginning of the year so my first exposure to him wasn't the CNN debate. He's still a cynical choice like Palin or Steele imo.

[yahoosale14]

Discuss!


I wonder if he thinks communities should have voted on whether or not to extend voting rights to blacks. I think he hates us for our freedoms.

msut....^...its not a necessary comment as voting rights are an inalienable right...whereas putting up a building....not so much

as clouded his remarks may seem, he has a legitimate point(albeit, vaguely) in the whole communities choosing buildings. whether it needs to be publicly brought into a racial/religious discrimination ordeal is another issue.

[Msut77]

msut....^

as clouded his remarks may seem, he has a legitimate point(albeit, vaguely) in the whole communities choosing buildings. whether it needs to be publicly brought into a racial/religious discrimination ordeal is another issue.

So if this were a synagogue it would be ok with you for someone to block it?

[yahoosale14]

So if this were a synagogue it would be ok with you for someone to block it?

im not saying its ok, but i've seen it happen due to obscure buildings codes and restrictions, and various other ways to delay/block a religious building.


http://californiawat...rimination-5029

Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. Lawmakers drafted this civil rights legislation – signed by President Bill Clinton in September 2000 – to protect inmates’ religious freedoms and, simultaneously, to prevent zoning ordinances from becoming tools of religious discrimination

[IRHari]

Well, he can't be racist because he's black. I've learned that from this forum.

I thought 'Muslim' was someone's religion, not their race. Hence the thread title being 'bigot', not 'racist'.

[cochesecochese]

People in this topic seem to be saying he is racist despite being black. The way you twist things some time is mind blowing.

Yes, but it's endlessly entertaining. Every time you think he's hit bedrock the heavy equipment makes an appearance and he just keeps digging.

In summation: lulz.

[MSI Magus]

I thought 'Muslim' was someone's religion, not their race. Hence the thread title being 'bigot', not 'racist'.

Heres the thing though. Do you doubt that anyone that he will judge anyone thats brown? I imagine anyone that even looks kind of olive skin he chalks up as a muslim.

[berzirk]

msut....^...its not a necessary comment as voting rights are an inalienable right...whereas putting up a building....not so much

as clouded his remarks may seem, he has a legitimate point(albeit, vaguely) in the whole communities choosing buildings. whether it needs to be publicly brought into a racial/religious discrimination ordeal is another issue.

Oh, I thought you were just being sarcastic and silly...but you actually meant it? Eek. Not to go through the NYC Mosque thread all over again, but why would his right to vote, be any different than a mosque's legal right to build? As Msut pointed out, does that mean local communities should be able to prevent synagogues from going in, assuming it's perfectly legal to build where they want to?

Cain is a horse's ass who is trying to beat his chest and scream the craziest stuff he can, hoping he can make any noise for himself in the weakest presidential candidate pool I can ever remember. I guess it's working, but he's just like other extremists, you can win the fringe weirdos of any group, but that doesn't even get you a cookie. You have to win a majority of your party, and sway a few independents. Nothing he's doing is swaying independents, or even making much of the rest of his party think highly of him. He's as real a candidate as the pornstar who ran for California governer.

[berzirk]

Actually, that was a jab at me. The short of it is that racism is about power, not just prejudice, so black people can't be racist because they lack institutional power, but that doesn't mean that they can't reproduce or perpetuate white supremacy aka racism. Using this framework, you could say that Cain is prejudiced, but not racist.

Now one could say that he's a religious bigot AND an asshole, but you couldn't say that he's bigoted about race...at least on this level of discussion. Personally, as an atheist and someone that knows a little something about colonization, it could also be argued that his religious bigotry is an effect of the use of religion to make slaves more amenable to their condition. But like I said, that's a little too deep for what we're talking about here.

edit: I've also been following the Cain movement since the beginning of the year so my first exposure to him wasn't the CNN debate. He's still a cynical choice like Palin or Steele imo.

Agree with some of that, disagree with others. Black people can absolutely be racist. As you mentioned, it requires power and predjudice. If you are the only asian guy in a company that is purchased by a black owner who hates asian people, and you're fired because for no reason other than being asian, then you were a victim of racism. The "power" aspect of it doesn't have to be national in scale. It does when people are trying to make the case that only minorities can be victims of prejudice, but that's just not correct in definition. I strongly agree that people mistakenly apply racism as the term to describe one person not liking another for their race, culture, religion, or beliefs.

Then the quip that he's been systematically conditioned to be bigoted towards other religions is absurd. Many of the slaves maintained their religious practices, whether it be traditional/ancestral, Islam, or anything else. That's why the deep South has such an interesting combination of many belief systems among blacks.

There's no need to qualify him as a "religious bigot". The definition of the word already includes that. Members from all races, creeds, and beliefs can be bigots. There is not power associated with an intolerance of others. For all we know, Cain may be intolerant of arabs and latinos.

bigot: –noun-a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

[nasum]

Every time he mentions Islam he talks about Sharia law. I just don't see evidence that the extremist version of Sharia law is really pervasive in the American Muslim community.

It's more pervasive in the Republican Pledge demanding community of the religious right when you think about it...

Also just for fun:
bigot: –noun-a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
So basically dohdough?

[dohdough]

Agree with some of that, disagree with others. Black people can absolutely be racist. As you mentioned, it requires power and predjudice. If you are the only asian guy in a company that is purchased by a black owner who hates asian people, and you're fired because for no reason other than being asian, then you were a victim of racism. The "power" aspect of it doesn't have to be national in scale. It does when people are trying to make the case that only minorities can be victims of prejudice, but that's just not correct in definition. I strongly agree that people mistakenly apply racism as the term to describe one person not liking another for their race, culture, religion, or beliefs.

You misunderstood what I mean by institutional power. To use your example, black men as a group do not have institutional power to mass fire Asian people from jobs across society. Along with the power aspect of racism, you also have to identify who, as a group benefits from that black owner's racism. It doesn't somehow empower black people as group, but it does whites. If anything, its a perpetuation of white on non-white racism, which is the point. Using this framework, the black person is perpetuating white racism/supremacy on the Asian person. It gets more complicated than this, but I don't think it's something that we need to get into at this point.

I would also not stoop to using dictionary definitions because dictionaries aren't very precise when it comes to describing complex social phenomena like racism.

Then the quip that he's been systematically conditioned to be bigoted towards other religions is absurd. Many of the slaves maintained their religious practices, whether it be traditional/ancestral, Islam, or anything else. That's why the deep South has such an interesting combination of many belief systems among blacks.

Sorry, but you're incorrect: a vast majority are Christians. You could argue that small aspects of various African religions were incorporated into the way they worship, but not that it's very diverse because it really isn't.

There's no need to qualify him as a "religious bigot". The definition of the word already includes that. Members from all races, creeds, and beliefs can be bigots. There is not power associated with an intolerance of others. For all we know, Cain may be intolerant of arabs and latinos.

I think it's important to make the distinction when people are referring to him being a racist without knowing where this prejudice is coming from. I'm not saying there's not a racial aspect of islamophobia; just that it's probably more of an effect due to his religion, rather than racial prejudice.

bigot: –noun-a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Like I said, dictionaries aren't precise.

[berzirk]

Definitions sort of shape how we use words, don't they? I'm not trying to continue arguing semantics too much more, but if we can't rely on the definition of a word to help us communicate, then I'm at a loss.

I definitely don't think Cain specifically is a racist, because he lacks the power to be one. I fully believe he's a predjudiced asshole though.

Regarding deep South Christians, go to an all-black baptist church, then go to an all-white baptist church. The differences are significant. The black baptist churches involve more nature-references and rituals. At least the couple I have gone to did. The songs, the dance, the spinning in circles-the Puritans weren't exactly doing that, so where did these differences come from? I'd have a hard time believing the slave masters encouraged them to sing and dance at church, while the master was sitting still reciting hymns.

[mykevermin]

brothers, sisters, come together, I beseech you! He's an asshole *and* a bigot!