Are teachers (K-12) undercompensated?

berzirk

berzirk

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I have several relatives who are teachers, and in fact, if I had to do it all over again, I would have selected that as my profession as well. As someone who works in the private sector, I can't help but get annoyed when a teacher-friend or relative complains about how underpaid they are.

It seems that in many states the starting salary is anywhere between $35-50k. I don't believe that includes required health insurance premiums, and definitely doesn't include required union dues (whether you choose to be in the union or not-another time, another thread), but when compared to the private sector, that's a pretty damn competitive starting salary depending on the nature of your work (not to mention the good retirement/pension system many have in place).

When you consider that K-12 teachers are also getting a couple months off in the summer, another 3 weeks for Christmas/Spring Break, their salary starts to look pretty high. I've discussed this many times over, and at least anectdotally the teachers feel like they are underpaid, and deserve that time off because their job is so tough. To me, there aren't too many stressful jobs I'd turn down if I could work 180 days a year, and have year round benefits.

I don't take this position to undermine one of the most important jobs out there, but do you folks think teachers are underpaid, overpaid, or paid just about right. Me personally, I think their salaries are about right, if not on the high end, when benefits are included.

(Again, I'm talking K-12. I know dmaul is in the university system, and I don't know much about their career paths or salary structures, so I'm not talking about higher ed)
 
When the bell rings, it doesn't mean that a teacher's job is over. So yes, they are undercompensated, but the bigger problem is an underfunded education system.
 
Don't get me started on this. They are not underpaid at all.

EDIT: At least where I live - I can only speak to my area.
 
so how is Wisconsin these days berzirk?

As stated earlier, the teacher day doesn't end with the student day and that goes k-12. Sure, you're not grading papers for 6 year olds, but you're prepping activites for the next day and things of that ilk. The farther along you go the more you need to deal with actual student outcome and it becomes more and more time consuming.
Teachers don't get the summer off either. Sure, they don't have to punch the clock at 8am, but they're working on curriculum for next year, attending conferences, year end reviews with administration, etc... You've fallen into the plithy anti-education notion that teaching is essentially a part-time job. That's blatantly false and one needs to be pretty god damn stupid to subscribe to that notion.

Yes, there are some shitty teachers out there and they might even be 5-10% of the population. There's also some shitty Jiffy Lubers out there, are they overpaid? So instead of denegrating the profession at the expense of 5-10% of the population, let's think of a better way to weed out the bad so that the good can flourish? Nah, it's more fun the other way!
 
As others have said, the problem isn't that teachers as a whole are under or over paid, it's that there is realy no criteria for evaluating the job they are doing individually. In the current system, you could be the best teacher in the world and make the same as the worst teacher in the same district. I would personally be happy to pay more for teachers as long as they are continually proving they are doing a great job.
 
[quote name='Javery']Don't get me started on this. They are not underpaid at all.

EDIT: At least where I live - I can only speak to my area.[/QUOTE]

You easily make 3-4X what a teacher makes. Are you overpaid, vastly overpaid, or absurdly overpaid, then?
 
I'd love the whole education system to be redone. At least that's one area where some control can be kept.

Now if only the kids/kid's parents took it as serious as the good teachers out there...this nation would be somewhere instead of the dunce of the world.
 
Parenting is a huge area where education suffers - both in the inability of undereducated parents to assist/oversee their own children's development, as well as their general failure to hold their children responsible for their own mediocre to weak educational performance.
 
[quote name='nasum']so how is Wisconsin these days berzirk?

As stated earlier, the teacher day doesn't end with the student day and that goes k-12. Sure, you're not grading papers for 6 year olds, but you're prepping activites for the next day and things of that ilk. The farther along you go the more you need to deal with actual student outcome and it becomes more and more time consuming.
Teachers don't get the summer off either. Sure, they don't have to punch the clock at 8am, but they're working on curriculum for next year, attending conferences, year end reviews with administration, etc... You've fallen into the plithy anti-education notion that teaching is essentially a part-time job. That's blatantly false and one needs to be pretty god damn stupid to subscribe to that notion.[/QUOTE]

Sweet, took the bait, now on the hook. So does that mean only teachers work outside of set shifts, and nobody else works more hours, works at home, puts in weekend time, occassionally works an 80 hour week as a salaried employee paid for 40 hours? I know I sure as hell do. That's exactly where your rebuttal dies. Teachers are the first to list out every minute that they do something school related on "their time", but are either ignorant of the fact, or openly choose to ignore it, that hundreds of thousands of professionals, do exactly this, and do it year round for the same or similar pay.

And wouldn't end of the year reviews be at...the end of the year, and not two months into summer? And don't in-service days aid teachers to attend workshops? Lets say a diligent teacher spends a day a week of their summer working. That's outright inaccurate for all teachers I've ever known, but lets say there are a few. So they're working 10 months out of the year then. That's a good, good gig for 12 months of pay and bennies. Is their job more stressful and important than everyone elses? I hardly believe that.

I fully admit and believe that they have a tough job with underfunded, limited resources to try to perform them. As the husband of a teacher, I know we've spent a fair amount of our household income on my wife's classrooms since the school wouldn't pay for things she needed. My parents did the same for my mom, also a teacher. Buying extra supplies for kids that came from poor families and couldn't or wouldn't even buy a simple paper folder and pencil for their child. But they do not have the market cornered on tough, stressful jobs. Hell, depending on where you are, I'll bet a city cop makes about as much as a teacher. I consider a cop's job more stressful and deserving of time off.

So you're saying that the average K-12 teacher works a full 12 months out of the year? I think you might want to double check that. It sounds like you have a broken calendar.
 
Depends on the area. Some places they're well compensated, others not so much. Sadly the lower paying areas are often poor innercity districts and poor rural districts where the tax base is low. Sad because these are the areas that most need great teachers.

I do agree that they need more rigorous evaluation standards and a tad less focus on seniority so you don't have so many older teachers who don't give a crap anymore and aren't working at staying good at their craft, keeping up with new information and technology etc.

But I also think teachers get a lot of unfair grief from miserable people who hate their jobs and thus are envious of teachers who they think get weekends and summers off etc---when any decent teacher is working a lot over those periods. Most teachers I know work well over 40 hour weeks during the school year with all the grading and course prep that has to be done on nights and weekends. Summers they may not work 40 hours, but are constantly trying to learn new things, update their course materials etc. And yes, many other professions also require working more than 40 hours while only getting paid for 40 hours, but people acknowledge that. Teachers are the only profession I can think of where people have a misguided view of how much work is put in.

And lastly, I agree 100% with Myke that there's only so much that can be done by teachers, or within the school system period. If the parents either don't care about their kids academic peformance, and/or lack the ability to help with their education that's a huge obstacle that's hard to overcome with in the 8-3 school day.
 
Undercompensated? That's up for debate. Underappreciated and subject to scrutiny more so than many other, higher paying, professions? Definitely. We need to stop focusing so much on teacher evaluation standards and more on helping failing schools as well as the neighborhoods that surround them.

Dmaul I agree with a lot of your post but is that bitter worker argument your new go-to?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You easily make 3-4X what a teacher makes. Are you overpaid, vastly overpaid, or absurdly overpaid, then?[/QUOTE]

Not sure but I do know I won't have approximately $1.6MM in an account after 20 years that I can live on for the rest of my life. I also pay $900/month in health insurance as opposed to nothing. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.
 
It's iffy for me. On one hand, you're just teaching children. On the other hand, you're teaching children.

If you're the type of teacher that is a worksheet/busy work machine and is never available for school activities? I'd say that salary sounds about right.

For anyone who gives a crap? Hardly. Being secondary parents without being able to discipline the kids is one of the worst punishments I can think of. So is being saddled with that responsibility but not being given enough resources because taxpayers/politicians think that teachers are overpaid.

It's not fun either to pretty much constantly being on the job, even when you're physically not there. I also have never known any teacher, lazy or not, who spent the summer "off".

Do I think being a teacher is tough? Hardly. Would I consider it a desirable position because it's carefree and has great single mom hours? LOL is all I can say to that.
 
[quote name='detectiveconan16']When the bell rings, it doesn't mean that a teacher's job is over. So yes, they are undercompensated, but the bigger problem is an underfunded education system.[/QUOTE]


I agree... some teachers leave within an hour of the last bell , others stay til 10pm :(

The school I am working at now is one of the lowest performing schools (when it comes to SOL's) and the school board is pissed. We are being watched big time. The people I am working with are one of the hardest working group I have ever met...problem is that we have a bunch of students who don't fucking care if they fail or have parents who don't care at all. The School board doesn't care...it's all about numbers...

Yea we get summers off, but I'd rather be teaching summer enrichment for that extra pay.

I would prefer bigger discounts on stuff though... teacher discounts aren't as good as they use to be.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I have several relatives who are teachers, and in fact, if I had to do it all over again, I would have selected that as my profession as well. As someone who works in the private sector, I can't help but get annoyed when a teacher-friend or relative complains about how underpaid they are.

It seems that in many states the starting salary is anywhere between $35-50k. I don't believe that includes required health insurance premiums, and definitely doesn't include required union dues (whether you choose to be in the union or not-another time, another thread), but when compared to the private sector, that's a pretty damn competitive starting salary depending on the nature of your work (not to mention the good retirement/pension system many have in place). [/QUOTE]

Don't get all butthurt because you picked a shitty profession and you put up with getting paid shitty wages.
 
[quote name='Javery']Not sure but I do know I won't have approximately $1.6MM in an account after 20 years that I can live on for the rest of my life. I also pay $900/month in health insurance as opposed to nothing. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.[/QUOTE]

Oh really. So how many millionaire teachers do you know?
 
[quote name='willardhaven']
Dmaul I agree with a lot of your post but is that bitter worker argument your new go-to?[/QUOTE]

Not sure it's anything new. I've never had patience for bitter, whiny people who hate their jobs and talk shit about other professions as a result. Especially someone like Javery who makes six figures as a lawyer and still bitches and moans all the time.

I don't think anyone posting on here was born into a ghetto broken home or anything based on what all the regulars have posted about themselves over the years. So it's pretty safe to say that most (if not all) on here have no one but themselves to blame if they're not happy with their career choices.
 
I do agree that they need more rigorous evaluation standards and a tad less focus on seniority so you don't have so many older teachers who don't give a crap anymore and aren't working at staying good at their craft, keeping up with new information and technology etc.
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This is pretty much the issue. Most of the young teachers I knew in highschool were much more dedicated to their classrooms. Senior teachers sitting on benefits kind of just did crossword puzzles while flying through the same curriculum they've done for god only knows how long.

As for how much work teachers do, when they do it, and the difficulty of the work involved -- I guess that's a hard thing to discuss because I rarely meet someone who is modest about their career. Just how people are, I guess.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Not sure it's anything new. I've never had patience for bitter, whiny people who hate their jobs and talk shit about other professions as a result. Especially someone like Javery who makes six figures as a lawyer and still bitches and moans all the time.

I don't think anyone posting on here was born into a ghetto broken home or anything based on what all the regulars have posted about themselves over the years. So it's pretty safe to say that most (if not all) on here have no one but themselves to blame if they're not happy with their career choices.[/QUOTE]

Well, I couldn't exactly bootstrap myself into a career as a bikini model.

;)
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']
As for how much work teachers do, when they do it, and the difficulty of the work involved -- I guess that's a hard thing to discuss because I rarely meet someone who is modest about their career. Just how people are, I guess.[/QUOTE]

Well I can gauge based on my own experience as well as from talking to teachers. Working at a research university I have a pretty light teaching load. Two classes a semester, usually only teach on two days a week, 5 hours a week in the classroom.

And that eats up a lot of my time, especially when teaching courses for the first time. I couldn't imagine teaching 5-7 courses a day 5 days a week like middle school and high school teachers do. Or Elementary school teachers and all the subjects they have to cover.

It's a lot more teaching, and a lot more involved teaching than at the college level where I'm just lecturing and facilitating discussions etc. and doing very little one on one or small group actual "teaching."
 
[quote name='camoor']Don't get all butthurt because you picked a shitty profession and you put up with getting paid shitty wages.[/QUOTE]

I wonder if camoor would be willing to say this to anyone who's got a job and isn't making a "living wage".
 
I'd like to point out that some school systems have also gone to a year round system, so the idea of having the summer off isn't universal.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I wonder if camoor would be willing to say this to anyone who's got a job and isn't making a "living wage".[/QUOTE]

And in your little world it's all the same. You are the most intellectually dishonest person on these boards.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I wonder if camoor would be willing to say this to anyone who's got a job and isn't making a "living wage".[/QUOTE]

Everyone deserves a living wage. But I have no sympathy for someone who pulls a "misery loves company" routine instead of standing up for what they deserve.

You and bezkirk should worry a little less about what everyone else makes and a little more about why you are such bitter whiny assholes.
 
I'm not advocating either direction, but if you really wanted to become a teacher, you could, there are a ton of shortages everywhere, and many programs where you could become a teacher for practically free.
 
[quote name='camoor']Don't get all butthurt because you picked a shitty profession and you put up with getting paid shitty wages.[/QUOTE]

It also includes a masters degree which for some reason the usual suspects ignore.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Parenting is a huge area where education suffers - both in the inability of undereducated parents to assist/oversee their own children's development, as well as their general failure to hold their children responsible for their own mediocre to weak educational performance.[/QUOTE]

This is a big factor in the failure of our education, this article gave me a laugh but it's the sad reality we live in. I don't know how other states are but here in CA we have such a huge diversity of different kinds of people it makes it that much harder on the teacher. Don't get me started on "no child left behind" either, one of the stupidest things they have done.

Also, I'm not sure how it works in other States/areas but I know around where I live the amount of pay you start out with and the tiers you can reach are determined on the amount of schooling you have accomplished. Teachers are always being scrutinized by everybody without having all the facts straight. I can't count how many headaches my wife has given me due to her day at school.
 
I think part of the ire that teachers get is that it's a scapegoat for society's failings without understanding all the little parts of it. We blame teachers for not making our and other's kids educated individuals without examining the metrics that we judge them by...and no, standardized testing is not a good one in an unequal society. Teaching to tests aren't answer either.

We don't really look at what we teach our kids and how we teach our kids. If there are programs that work, we don't expand them to districts that don't because we strip the funding to needy schools that were used for pilot/charter programs and never restore them. And if programs are designed for underserved communites that work, they are generally dismantled.

Between narrative and pedagogy, is it any wonder why the system is failing kids? But no, let's just blame the messengers of the garbage we want taught to our kids because our kids aren't well-versed enough on it.

We still have fucking debates on whether to allow creationism should be taight in schools. The US is fucking Bizarro-land.

Even if schools are considered day-care centers by parents, they're fucking dirt cheap compared to going to a after-school program or hiring a nanny. Or maybe some of you should just read "Lies My Teacher Told Me" and educate yourselves a little bit.
 
Before this thread gets derailed further, education isn't on the top of the list of any politician right now and it's usually the first to get cut in any budget.

I know Gov. Jerry Brown has already made it clear that if his measures don't pass this fall that education would have a big hit in there funding. I for one wish the school year and day were longer, these kids really need more time than the time teachers are allotted to teach what ever curriculum they can cram in the day. Not to mention there is no time for science and PE which is really sad.
 
[quote name='camoor']You and bezkirk should worry a little less about what everyone else makes and a little more about why you are such bitter whiny assholes.[/QUOTE]

I rarely complain about my job, and when I do, it's never about the wages. :D

But yeah, I figured this would be about the type of reply you'd spew out.
 
I work with waste for a living. My day involves regularly coming into close contact with used condoms, tampons, and fecal matter of 4 million people that has been liquefied and aerated. I'd take that over being a K-12 teacher any fucking day.

I don't know how to fix it but I know thrashing the teachers on pay isn't the place to start.
 
[quote name='camoor']Oh really. So how many millionaire teachers do you know?[/QUOTE]

I was referring to the approximate amount of cash I'd have to save over the course of my career to equal a teacher's pension that gets paid out for life (plus they get free health insurance for their entire family too!). People never take this into consideration when discussing teacher salaries. I'd have no problem paying all teachers double what they currently make if they were willing to give up the pension and health benefits. Of course no sane teacher would ever agree to this.

[quote name='dmaul1114']I've never had patience for bitter, whiny people who hate their jobs and talk shit about other professions as a result. Especially someone like Javery who makes six figures as a lawyer and still bitches and moans all the time.[/QUOTE]

I don't bitch and moan about other professions - I only bitch and moan about public school teachers (when it comes up) because that's my right as a taxpayer. I'm paying their salaries and they have all been brainwashed to think they are vastly underpaid for what they do and (at least in NJ with the ridiculously powerful teachers' union) they are constantly complaining about it. I just don't see it that way when you take everything into consideration.

This isn't a knock on teachers - I could never do what they do and deal with all the kids and not be able to take a dump at work whenever I wanted, etc. They are hugely important and with kids in school now I see how hard it is to find really really good teachers who care about the kids and want to put in all the extra effort that the job demands. It doesn't mean they are underpaid though.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I'm not advocating either direction, but if you really wanted to become a teacher, you could, there are a ton of shortages everywhere, and many programs where you could become a teacher for practically free.[/QUOTE]


This is not true for all areas; especially in the rural Northeast where many schools are downsizing and/or consoldating districts which has led to many college graduates not being able to find teaching jobs once they finish school.

Also some states like Connecticut are extremely hard to get certified in, and typically require a five year degree.
 
[quote name='Javery']I was referring to the approximate amount of cash I'd have to save over the course of my career to equal a teacher's pension that gets paid out for life (plus they get free health insurance for their entire family too!). People never take this into consideration when discussing teacher salaries. I'd have no problem paying all teachers double what they currently make if they were willing to give up the pension and health benefits. Of course no sane teacher would ever agree to this.[/QUOTE]

Cite your source on the size of the pension ($1.6M per teacher, per your estimate). You claim a finite number, and later say they can draw on it "for life" (just above). Both can not be true.

Also, rudimentary economics would tell you that the health care is not "free."

Lastly, I'd like to know the year, make, and model of all the cars in your household. I think it'll help give us some perspective on your concept of relative pay and worth, I'm not gonna drive to northern NJ and stalk you or anything. I'll even go first - I own a 2006 VW Jetta that I bought used, and will be paid off in 5 months. My other car is a subway.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I rarely complain about my job, and when I do, it's never about the wages. :D

But yeah, I figured this would be about the type of reply you'd spew out.[/QUOTE]

I said you are bitter and whiny.

It's true that you almost never say anything bad about Wally World and your corporate masters.

Instead you whine about the government alot. You also sound really bitter when you talk about welfare or government projects for the poor.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Cite your source on the size of the pension ($1.6M per teacher, per your estimate). You claim a finite number, and later say they can draw on it "for life" (just above). Both can not be true.

Also, rudimentary economics would tell you that the health care is not "free."

Lastly, I'd like to know the year, make, and model of all the cars in your household.[/QUOTE]

The retirement plan in NJ = (number of years of service)/55 * (average salary over final 3 years). In NJ there is typically a *huge* jump in pay from the year prior to eligibility to the year you qualify for full retirement benefits in order to get more out of your pension (age 59 to 60 or year 24 to 25 depending on the circumstances).

My best friend is a public school teacher and we talk about this a lot. He makes about $65K/year right now in his 8th year. Using him as an example, he has 22 more years until he hits age 60 which will give him 30 years of service. Using the formula above (and assuming his last 3 years average $100,000 per year which is a conservative estimate) that would get him approximately $55,000 per year for the rest of his life after retirement (in current money). He does pay 5.5% into his pension which is about $300 per month - not a bad return on your dollar.

Teachers don't have a $1.6MM pension - that's just a very (low) rough estimate of the cash an average person would have to have in the bank to get paid a similar amount off of the interest. Right now if you could get a 3% return on your money per year (big if) on $1.6MM you'd see almost $50,000 per year in interest payments.

As for the health care, it is "free" - or as free as something like that can be (excluding the $10 co-pay). Teachers in NJ don't contribute anything to their plans. Christie was trying to get them to contribute a minimum of 1.5% (like all other state employees) or something like that - I'm not sure if that got pushed through yet but it was approved. I believe the amount would scale and be tied to compensation. Currently, all other state workers in NJ contribute a minimum of 1.5%; teachers - nothing. It's nuts. Still, 1.5% is ridiculously low. On a $65K salary it's about $80/month. Most people at private companies with very good plans pay 4 to 5 times that.

My wife drives a 2005 MDX and a I drive 2009 Rav4. Both are fully paid for and both will be driven until they die. My last car before the Rav4 was a 1999 Jetta and I hated that thing. :D
 
At $55,000 per year, he'd have to be retired for 29 years to collect on all that. So he'd have to, if he retired at 60, live to be 89, or 12 years above the current average life expectancy for males in the US. Yet you claim this is your *low* estimate?

Based on average life expectancy, then, the average pension payout (at $55K/year, retiring at age 60) would be around $935,000 total. That should be your average estimate, not merely conceived as half your "low" estimate.

At a 5.5% contribution rate, over the course of a 30-year career (cheap math ahead) with no pay raise, he's contributing a minimum $91,000. In reality, given annual raises, it's going to be much higher than that ($3575 contributed at 65K/year, $5500 at 100K/year). So about 15% of his pension is his wage.

That is indeed a good return, but it's not as outrageous as you claim - you're full of doublespeak where you claim to not be against teacher pay (under the insincere guise about caring about having effective teachers), but then lament that teachers have it so well off compared to everyone else, in the context of "outraged taxpayer."

2009 car is fully paid for? While I respect that, your ability to pay off a car either (1) up front or (2) in fewer than 60 months is not particularly "middle class." Also, did you deliberately omit the make from the MDX? ;)

Let's not hate on VW, now. I love 'em. Sorry to run the risk of UncleBobbing this thread.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Sweet, took the bait, now on the hook. So does that mean only teachers work outside of set shifts, and nobody else works more hours, works at home, puts in weekend time, occassionally works an 80 hour week as a salaried employee paid for 40 hours?[/quote]

Wow. So if your salary is your set pay for the year despite hours worked, what's the distinction between any other salaried professional? Ok, so a teacher works ten months but gets paid $40k. Do they make $4k a month for 10 months or $3,333 per month for 12 months? You seem to be locked into this notion that they get paid for punching the clock (and get away with murder by not punching the clock when students aren't in class) despite their salary basis.
False equivalence pal.

And wouldn't end of the year reviews be at...the end of the year, and not two months into summer? And don't in-service days aid teachers to attend workshops? Lets say a diligent teacher spends a day a week of their summer working. That's outright inaccurate for all teachers I've ever known, but lets say there are a few. So they're working 10 months out of the year then. That's a good, good gig for 12 months of pay and bennies. Is their job more stressful and important than everyone elses? I hardly believe that.
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Yes, the 1st day of summer vacation, every teacher in the district gets their review. Hundreds of teachers get their 45 second review and go on their merry way! It's a wonderful system!
How many weeks of vacation do you get at your job? Maybe 4? Maybe 6? Guess what, that's a month off! So your slaving away for 12 months is a moot point as it is balanced by vacation days. Do you get sick days too?

I fully admit and believe that they have a tough job with underfunded, limited resources to try to perform them. As the husband of a teacher, I know we've spent a fair amount of our household income on my wife's classrooms since the school wouldn't pay for things she needed. My parents did the same for my mom, also a teacher. Buying extra supplies for kids that came from poor families and couldn't or wouldn't even buy a simple paper folder and pencil for their child. But they do not have the market cornered on tough, stressful jobs. Hell, depending on where you are, I'll bet a city cop makes about as much as a teacher. I consider a cop's job more stressful and deserving of time off.
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Well good on you for not respecting your lady's profession. Take your anecdotal evidence of her going into soap opera and bon-bon mode the day summer vacation starts and contrast it with reality.

Tell me where we exalted teachers as the only stressful job in the world? Are you just making shit up, or are you really that fucking stupid? I'm quite curious.

So you're saying that the average K-12 teacher works a full 12 months out of the year? I think you might want to double check that. It sounds like you have a broken calendar.
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See above, you don't work 365 days a year either but you get a yearly salary. Break it down however you want. Let's say a diligent birzirk works two saturdays a month, that's still 78 weekend days per year it sits around doing jackshit! Let's lynch it!
 
[quote name='Msut77']Teachers get decent health care because they are basically insured as one giant group. Hence bargaining power.[/QUOTE]

is this where I get to say that the individual mandate is a govt takeover of the healthcare industry? If not, just let me know. I can wait my turn.
 
Per pupil spending is very high and teachers are paid enough. It's the administrators that are overpaid and there are too many of them. This goes for K-12 as well as universities.
 
[quote name='nasum']is this where I get to say that the individual mandate is a govt takeover of the healthcare industry? If not, just let me know. I can wait my turn.[/QUOTE]

Don't be silly. If it was a gubberment takeover every one could have cheaper decent healthcare.
 
You can also retire after 25 years and get a pretty nice pension plan (the amount is reduced by 3% for every year you are under 55 years of age). So you could come out of college and retire by 46 or 47 and have a very long life ahead of you with a nice supplement to your second career/job.

I don't think my position is doublespeak (of course I do so much of that on a daily basis I probably can't even tell). I'm not against teacher pay because I care about the quality of teachers, however, I do think that they have benefits that are much much better than the average employee, which is rarely addressed when discussing teacher salaries. My position is that they are not underpaid.

I just hate the current system and how powerful the union has become. Most of my "outrage" stems from the fact that it is next to impossible to fire a tenured teacher and whether or not you are actually good at your job (or at least better than the next guy) doesn't come into play. The difference between my daughter's first grade teacher (unbelievably awesome) and kindergarten teacher (mentally handicapped? Wouldn't surprise me.) is crazy but I'd bet a year's salary that the kindergarten teacher makes considerably more per year simply because she is older and been in the system longer.

If the system was set up so that the best teachers were rewarded with job security and higher wages I probably wouldn't care as much but the fact that everyone is treated the same no matter how good or bad they are at their job makes me nuts.

I left out "Toyota" too! I do love the Acura even though it is going on 7 years old. I'm not a car guy so we will be driving these until the wheels fall off - hopefully we get 12 years or more out of each car. Also, as much as I love the Acura, my Rav4 is great and only cost about 60% of what I paid for the Acura so I don't think I'll be buying another Acura in the future but who knows.

I had a horrible experience with my Jetta. Tons of recalls and one time my driver's side window shattered when I tried to put the window down due to a faulty design in the motor. Repairs were also way too expensive. Never again. :cry:
 
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