[camoor]

“It’s three agencies of government when I get there that are gone – Commerce, Education and the um, what’s the third one there? Let’s see. Oh five – Commerce, Education and the um, um,” Perry said.

http://abcnews.go.co...ment-of-energy/

That says it all, doesn't it.

[skiizim]

Before this thread gets derailed further, education isn't on the top of the list of any politician right now and it's usually the first to get cut in any budget.

I know Gov. Jerry Brown has already made it clear that if his measures don't pass this fall that education would have a big hit in there funding. I for one wish the school year and day were longer, these kids really need more time than the time teachers are allotted to teach what ever curriculum they can cram in the day. Not to mention there is no time for science and PE which is really sad.

[UncleBob]

You and bezkirk should worry a little less about what everyone else makes and a little more about why you are such bitter whiny assholes.

I rarely complain about my job, and when I do, it's never about the wages.

But yeah, I figured this would be about the type of reply you'd spew out.

[speedracer]

I work with waste for a living. My day involves regularly coming into close contact with used condoms, tampons, and fecal matter of 4 million people that has been liquefied and aerated. I'd take that over being a K-12 teacher any fucking day.

I don't know how to fix it but I know thrashing the teachers on pay isn't the place to start.

[irideabike]

so how is Wisconsin these days berzirk?

Pretty good, thanks for asking. My property taxes went down for the first time.

[Javery]

Oh really. So how many millionaire teachers do you know?

I was referring to the approximate amount of cash I'd have to save over the course of my career to equal a teacher's pension that gets paid out for life (plus they get free health insurance for their entire family too!). People never take this into consideration when discussing teacher salaries. I'd have no problem paying all teachers double what they currently make if they were willing to give up the pension and health benefits. Of course no sane teacher would ever agree to this.

I've never had patience for bitter, whiny people who hate their jobs and talk shit about other professions as a result. Especially someone like Javery who makes six figures as a lawyer and still bitches and moans all the time.

I don't bitch and moan about other professions - I only bitch and moan about public school teachers (when it comes up) because that's my right as a taxpayer. I'm paying their salaries and they have all been brainwashed to think they are vastly underpaid for what they do and (at least in NJ with the ridiculously powerful teachers' union) they are constantly complaining about it. I just don't see it that way when you take everything into consideration.

This isn't a knock on teachers - I could never do what they do and deal with all the kids and not be able to take a dump at work whenever I wanted, etc. They are hugely important and with kids in school now I see how hard it is to find really really good teachers who care about the kids and want to put in all the extra effort that the job demands. It doesn't mean they are underpaid though.

[GBAstar]

I'm not advocating either direction, but if you really wanted to become a teacher, you could, there are a ton of shortages everywhere, and many programs where you could become a teacher for practically free.

This is not true for all areas; especially in the rural Northeast where many schools are downsizing and/or consoldating districts which has led to many college graduates not being able to find teaching jobs once they finish school.

Also some states like Connecticut are extremely hard to get certified in, and typically require a five year degree.

[mykevermin]

I was referring to the approximate amount of cash I'd have to save over the course of my career to equal a teacher's pension that gets paid out for life (plus they get free health insurance for their entire family too!). People never take this into consideration when discussing teacher salaries. I'd have no problem paying all teachers double what they currently make if they were willing to give up the pension and health benefits. Of course no sane teacher would ever agree to this.

Cite your source on the size of the pension ($1.6M per teacher, per your estimate). You claim a finite number, and later say they can draw on it "for life" (just above). Both can not be true.

Also, rudimentary economics would tell you that the health care is not "free."

Lastly, I'd like to know the year, make, and model of all the cars in your household. I think it'll help give us some perspective on your concept of relative pay and worth, I'm not gonna drive to northern NJ and stalk you or anything. I'll even go first - I own a 2006 VW Jetta that I bought used, and will be paid off in 5 months. My other car is a subway.

[camoor]

I rarely complain about my job, and when I do, it's never about the wages.

But yeah, I figured this would be about the type of reply you'd spew out.

I said you are bitter and whiny.

It's true that you almost never say anything bad about Wally World and your corporate masters.

Instead you whine about the government alot. You also sound really bitter when you talk about welfare or government projects for the poor.

[Javery]

Cite your source on the size of the pension ($1.6M per teacher, per your estimate). You claim a finite number, and later say they can draw on it "for life" (just above). Both can not be true.

Also, rudimentary economics would tell you that the health care is not "free."

Lastly, I'd like to know the year, make, and model of all the cars in your household.

The retirement plan in NJ = (number of years of service)/55 * (average salary over final 3 years). In NJ there is typically a *huge* jump in pay from the year prior to eligibility to the year you qualify for full retirement benefits in order to get more out of your pension (age 59 to 60 or year 24 to 25 depending on the circumstances).

My best friend is a public school teacher and we talk about this a lot. He makes about $65K/year right now in his 8th year. Using him as an example, he has 22 more years until he hits age 60 which will give him 30 years of service. Using the formula above (and assuming his last 3 years average $100,000 per year which is a conservative estimate) that would get him approximately $55,000 per year for the rest of his life after retirement (in current money). He does pay 5.5% into his pension which is about $300 per month - not a bad return on your dollar.

Teachers don't have a $1.6MM pension - that's just a very (low) rough estimate of the cash an average person would have to have in the bank to get paid a similar amount off of the interest. Right now if you could get a 3% return on your money per year (big if) on $1.6MM you'd see almost $50,000 per year in interest payments.

As for the health care, it is "free" - or as free as something like that can be (excluding the $10 co-pay). Teachers in NJ don't contribute anything to their plans. Christie was trying to get them to contribute a minimum of 1.5% (like all other state employees) or something like that - I'm not sure if that got pushed through yet but it was approved. I believe the amount would scale and be tied to compensation. Currently, all other state workers in NJ contribute a minimum of 1.5%; teachers - nothing. It's nuts. Still, 1.5% is ridiculously low. On a $65K salary it's about $80/month. Most people at private companies with very good plans pay 4 to 5 times that.

My wife drives a 2005 MDX and a I drive 2009 Rav4. Both are fully paid for and both will be driven until they die. My last car before the Rav4 was a 1999 Jetta and I hated that thing.

[Mr Unoriginal]

It's nice to be married to a NJ teacher. Especially when my job has no benefits.

[Msut77]

Teachers get decent health care because they are basically insured as one giant group. Hence bargaining power.

[mykevermin]

At $55,000 per year, he'd have to be retired for 29 years to collect on all that. So he'd have to, if he retired at 60, live to be 89, or 12 years above the current average life expectancy for males in the US. Yet you claim this is your *low* estimate?

Based on average life expectancy, then, the average pension payout (at $55K/year, retiring at age 60) would be around $935,000 total. That should be your average estimate, not merely conceived as half your "low" estimate.

At a 5.5% contribution rate, over the course of a 30-year career (cheap math ahead) with no pay raise, he's contributing a minimum $91,000. In reality, given annual raises, it's going to be much higher than that ($3575 contributed at 65K/year, $5500 at 100K/year). So about 15% of his pension is his wage.

That is indeed a good return, but it's not as outrageous as you claim - you're full of doublespeak where you claim to not be against teacher pay (under the insincere guise about caring about having effective teachers), but then lament that teachers have it so well off compared to everyone else, in the context of "outraged taxpayer."

2009 car is fully paid for? While I respect that, your ability to pay off a car either (1) up front or (2) in fewer than 60 months is not particularly "middle class." Also, did you deliberately omit the make from the MDX?

Let's not hate on VW, now. I love 'em. Sorry to run the risk of UncleBobbing this thread.

[nasum]

Sweet, took the bait, now on the hook. So does that mean only teachers work outside of set shifts, and nobody else works more hours, works at home, puts in weekend time, occassionally works an 80 hour week as a salaried employee paid for 40 hours?

Wow. So if your salary is your set pay for the year despite hours worked, what's the distinction between any other salaried professional? Ok, so a teacher works ten months but gets paid $40k. Do they make $4k a month for 10 months or $3,333 per month for 12 months? You seem to be locked into this notion that they get paid for punching the clock (and get away with murder by not punching the clock when students aren't in class) despite their salary basis.
False equivalence pal.

And wouldn't end of the year reviews be at...the end of the year, and not two months into summer? And don't in-service days aid teachers to attend workshops? Lets say a diligent teacher spends a day a week of their summer working. That's outright inaccurate for all teachers I've ever known, but lets say there are a few. So they're working 10 months out of the year then. That's a good, good gig for 12 months of pay and bennies. Is their job more stressful and important than everyone elses? I hardly believe that.

Yes, the 1st day of summer vacation, every teacher in the district gets their review. Hundreds of teachers get their 45 second review and go on their merry way! It's a wonderful system!
How many weeks of vacation do you get at your job? Maybe 4? Maybe 6? Guess what, that's a month off! So your slaving away for 12 months is a moot point as it is balanced by vacation days. Do you get sick days too?

I fully admit and believe that they have a tough job with underfunded, limited resources to try to perform them. As the husband of a teacher, I know we've spent a fair amount of our household income on my wife's classrooms since the school wouldn't pay for things she needed. My parents did the same for my mom, also a teacher. Buying extra supplies for kids that came from poor families and couldn't or wouldn't even buy a simple paper folder and pencil for their child. But they do not have the market cornered on tough, stressful jobs. Hell, depending on where you are, I'll bet a city cop makes about as much as a teacher. I consider a cop's job more stressful and deserving of time off.

Well good on you for not respecting your lady's profession. Take your anecdotal evidence of her going into soap opera and bon-bon mode the day summer vacation starts and contrast it with reality.

Tell me where we exalted teachers as the only stressful job in the world? Are you just making shit up, or are you really that fucking stupid? I'm quite curious.

So you're saying that the average K-12 teacher works a full 12 months out of the year? I think you might want to double check that. It sounds like you have a broken calendar.

See above, you don't work 365 days a year either but you get a yearly salary. Break it down however you want. Let's say a diligent birzirk works two saturdays a month, that's still 78 weekend days per year it sits around doing jackshit! Let's lynch it!

[nasum]

Teachers get decent health care because they are basically insured as one giant group. Hence bargaining power.

is this where I get to say that the individual mandate is a govt takeover of the healthcare industry? If not, just let me know. I can wait my turn.

[Spokker]

Per pupil spending is very high and teachers are paid enough. It's the administrators that are overpaid and there are too many of them. This goes for K-12 as well as universities.

[Msut77]

is this where I get to say that the individual mandate is a govt takeover of the healthcare industry? If not, just let me know. I can wait my turn.

Don't be silly. If it was a gubberment takeover every one could have cheaper decent healthcare.

[Javery]

You can also retire after 25 years and get a pretty nice pension plan (the amount is reduced by 3% for every year you are under 55 years of age). So you could come out of college and retire by 46 or 47 and have a very long life ahead of you with a nice supplement to your second career/job.

I don't think my position is doublespeak (of course I do so much of that on a daily basis I probably can't even tell). I'm not against teacher pay because I care about the quality of teachers, however, I do think that they have benefits that are much much better than the average employee, which is rarely addressed when discussing teacher salaries. My position is that they are not underpaid.

I just hate the current system and how powerful the union has become. Most of my "outrage" stems from the fact that it is next to impossible to fire a tenured teacher and whether or not you are actually good at your job (or at least better than the next guy) doesn't come into play. The difference between my daughter's first grade teacher (unbelievably awesome) and kindergarten teacher (mentally handicapped? Wouldn't surprise me.) is crazy but I'd bet a year's salary that the kindergarten teacher makes considerably more per year simply because she is older and been in the system longer.

If the system was set up so that the best teachers were rewarded with job security and higher wages I probably wouldn't care as much but the fact that everyone is treated the same no matter how good or bad they are at their job makes me nuts.

I left out "Toyota" too! I do love the Acura even though it is going on 7 years old. I'm not a car guy so we will be driving these until the wheels fall off - hopefully we get 12 years or more out of each car. Also, as much as I love the Acura, my Rav4 is great and only cost about 60% of what I paid for the Acura so I don't think I'll be buying another Acura in the future but who knows.

I had a horrible experience with my Jetta. Tons of recalls and one time my driver's side window shattered when I tried to put the window down due to a faulty design in the motor. Repairs were also way too expensive. Never again.

[nasum]

Don't be silly. If it was a gubberment takeover every one could have cheaper decent health insurance.

ftfy
healthcare outcomes are a seperate deal, one that your average derpaderp can't quite figure out. Obamacare means your doctor is a federale` and all that...

[dmaul1114]

Teachers are very important to a country's future. Thus we need decent salary and benefit packages to get people to opt for that profession vs. something in the private sector.

And it's something we still don't do a good job of. Studies show very few top of the class college graduates go on to be teachers. They're going after six figure type jobs. Some studies even suggest that most teachers come from the bottom third of college graduating classes--though I did read something disputing that a while back. But even that still noted that relatively few come from the top third.

[dohdough]

You can also retire after 25 years and get a pretty nice pension plan (the amount is reduced by 3% for every year you are under 55 years of age). So you could come out of college and retire by 46 or 47 and have a very long life ahead of you with a nice supplement to your second career/job.

About half the teachers in the US have a graduate degree and some states require it for "tenure."

I don't think my position is doublespeak (of course I do so much of that on a daily basis I probably can't even tell). I'm not against teacher pay because I care about the quality of teachers, however, I do think that they have benefits that are much much better than the average employee, which is rarely addressed when discussing teacher salaries. My position is that they are not underpaid.

Do you know why they have "better" benefits? Because the private sector has been stripping them away for 40 years by destroying unions and shipping jobs overseas. The wealth distribution and income rates are practically flat for a vast majority of income earning households with the valid argument of it's decline when accounting for two earner households.

I just hate the current system and how powerful the union has become. Most of my "outrage" stems from the fact that it is next to impossible to fire a tenured teacher and whether or not you are actually good at your job (or at least better than the next guy) doesn't come into play. The difference between my daughter's first grade teacher (unbelievably awesome) and kindergarten teacher (mentally handicapped? Wouldn't surprise me.) is crazy but I'd bet a year's salary that the kindergarten teacher makes considerably more per year simply because she is older and been in the system longer.

How is this different from any job? There are always assholes at any workplace that seem to stick around regardless of incompetence. I highly doubt that this is unique to public sector jobs and people hardly complain about corrupt cops along with their powerful unions. I don't even see how seniority pay factors into this when this is also pretty common in the private sector as well.

If the system was set up so that the best teachers were rewarded with job security and higher wages I probably wouldn't care as much but the fact that everyone is treated the same no matter how good or bad they are at their job makes me nuts.

Good thing they aren't treated the same, so you don't have to worry about it.

I left out "Toyota" too! I do love the Acura even though it is going on 7 years old. I'm not a car guy so we will be driving these until the wheels fall off - hopefully we get 12 years or more out of each car. Also, as much as I love the Acura, my Rav4 is great and only cost about 60% of what I paid for the Acura so I don't think I'll be buying another Acura in the future but who knows.

I had a horrible experience with my Jetta. Tons of recalls and one time my driver's side window shattered when I tried to put the window down due to a faulty design in the motor. Repairs were also way too expensive. Never again.

I think the point is that you make a shit load of money.

[Javery]

I think the point is that you make a shit load of money.

[berzirk]

Who got butthurt over anything? Thanks for the comment though. It added a ton to the discussion.

Everyone deserves a living wage. But I have no sympathy for someone who pulls a "misery loves company" routine instead of standing up for what they deserve.

You and bezkirk should worry a little less about what everyone else makes and a little more about why you are such bitter whiny assholes.

Oops, nevermind, this one was what I really should have quoted. I have no idea what you make, I probably make more, but I can almost guarantee that the industry I'm in is one you'd love to join (gaming, entertainment, technology that helps the disabled).

So a quick question. Why do you think you need to resort to petty name-calling instead of offering a sound rebuttal? Do you get that it doesn't really move anything forward? You probably don't get it or don't care, but since I think you ocassionally do offer sound comments I've elected in the past to not ignore you, but honestly, if this kind of stuff is the best you've got, either save us both the time and just tell your buddy the wildly clever comment you've got, or give me a head's up that you have no desire to have a real conversation, and I can just ignore you.

...and my wife, mom, and sister are teachers. I wish I would've studied ed in college instead, and I volunteer extensively with youth organizations, and I coach athletics. I'm about as involved as I can be with education and kids, without actually being a teacher. It's a profession I admire, as I've stated repeatedly in my first post.

[berzirk]

Wow. So if your salary is your set pay for the year despite hours worked, what's the distinction between any other salaried professional? Ok, so a teacher works ten months but gets paid $40k. Do they make $4k a month for 10 months or $3,333 per month for 12 months? You seem to be locked into this notion that they get paid for punching the clock (and get away with murder by not punching the clock when students aren't in class) despite their salary basis.
False equivalence pal.

Yes, the 1st day of summer vacation, every teacher in the district gets their review. Hundreds of teachers get their 45 second review and go on their merry way! It's a wonderful system!
How many weeks of vacation do you get at your job? Maybe 4? Maybe 6? Guess what, that's a month off! So your slaving away for 12 months is a moot point as it is balanced by vacation days. Do you get sick days too?

Well good on you for not respecting your lady's profession. Take your anecdotal evidence of her going into soap opera and bon-bon mode the day summer vacation starts and contrast it with reality.

Tell me where we exalted teachers as the only stressful job in the world? Are you just making shit up, or are you really that fucking stupid? I'm quite curious.

See above, you don't work 365 days a year either but you get a yearly salary. Break it down however you want. Let's say a diligent birzirk works two saturdays a month, that's still 78 weekend days per year it sits around doing jackshit! Let's lynch it!

No, I'm really this fucking stupid. It's been a challenge all my life to catch up to the intellectual might of someone like you, and let's face it, unless you become severely brain damaged and spend years in a vegetative state, I'll never have a chance to catch up.

I could go on and list all my work benefits I suppose if you're really curious. Your assumptions are wrong on just about every topic. I also work/volunteer part-time at the local Boys and Girls Club. Not sure if you want me to include my hours. Just let me know. I really want to make sure I please you with a rebuttal.

And I don't respect my wife, mother, and sister's profession, yet I've interviewed once for a teaching job and made it as the #2 candidate, losing out to #1 because the guy had 6 months towards his credential and I didn't have any hours towards it. Principal telling me that he wanted to hire me, but the school board said he had to hire the other guy because of his work towards his credential. You're right. I don't respect the profession, and think they're a bunch of overpaid, lazy a-holes. Damn, you're on fire today. Offer more assumptions about me, this is a real chance for me to grow as a person. Your input is invaluable!

We've been fortunate enough to have my wife stay at home after having our first child, she's 7 months pregnant with #3, and we're hoping by the time that one goes off to school, she can update her certs and start teaching again. I'll call her later today to inform her that a guy on a videogame forum says I don't respect her profession though. I don't think she was aware.

[camoor]

Oops, nevermind, this one was what I really should have quoted. I have no idea what you make, I probably make more, but I can almost guarantee that the industry I'm in is one you'd love to join (gaming, entertainment, technology that helps the disabled).

So a quick question. Why do you think you need to resort to petty name-calling instead of offering a sound rebuttal? Do you get that it doesn't really move anything forward? You probably don't get it or don't care, but since I think you ocassionally do offer sound comments I've elected in the past to not ignore you, but honestly, if this kind of stuff is the best you've got, either save us both the time and just tell your buddy the wildly clever comment you've got, or give me a head's up that you have no desire to have a real conversation, and I can just ignore you.

...and my wife, mom, and sister are teachers. I wish I would've studied ed in college instead, and I volunteer extensively with youth organizations, and I coach athletics. I'm about as involved as I can be with education and kids, without actually being a teacher. It's a profession I admire, as I've stated repeatedly in my first post.

If I was a teacher and I heard this nonsense I'd reply in 5 succinct words "Money talks and bullshit walks"

You see, the way we value things is a capitalist society is money. So it's nice that you "admire" teachers but apparently you don't value the extensive education and training they must acquire, or the fact that class hours don't tell the whole picture, or their overall contribution to society. So forgive me if I find this last post to be an exercise in disingenuous backpedaling.

Admiration is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills.

[nasum]

and yet you manage to not point out where anyone said teaching is the most stressful job in the world. My question remains, are you making that up or are you a numbskull that read that into some oether post where someone said it is a stressful job and that means it's the only stressful job?

I didn't ask you to list all of your benefits and time off. I simply stated that you get paid time off at your job. If you're going to go down the line of thinking that "teachers get the summer off of work and still get paid" then you can take a paid vacation too. You're comparing oranges and calling one of them a pineapple because it somehow fits the frame of the argument you've setup. It doesn't.

So you personally know 3 teachers and applied to be one yourself. Why are you ragging on the profession? Feel free to presume that I'm calling them whatever, you're the one that has done it throughout this thread. Again, stupid or just making stuff up because you're bored?

[camoor]

and yet you manage to not point out where anyone said teaching is the most stressful job in the world. My question remains, are you making that up or are you a numbskull that read that into some oether post where someone said it is a stressful job and that means it's the only stressful job?

I didn't ask you to list all of your benefits and time off. I simply stated that you get paid time off at your job. If you're going to go down the line of thinking that "teachers get the summer off of work and still get paid" then you can take a paid vacation too. You're comparing oranges and calling one of them a pineapple because it somehow fits the frame of the argument you've setup. It doesn't.

So you personally know 3 teachers and applied to be one yourself. Why are you ragging on the profession? Feel free to presume that I'm calling them whatever, you're the one that has done it throughout this thread. Again, stupid or just making stuff up because you're bored?

It's because admiration is free.

If you truly are making great videogames then I admire the work you do berzirk, can I have your videogames for supercheap or free because I admire your work? Or would you feel insulted that I do not truly value your hard work?

[dmaul1114]

If I was a teacher and I heard this nonsense I'd reply in 5 succinct words "Money talks and bullshit walks"

You see, the way we value things is a capitalist society is money. So it's nice that you "admire" teachers but apparently you don't value the extensive education and training they must acquire, or the fact that class hours don't tell the whole picture, or their overall contribution to society. So forgive me if I find this last post to be an exercise in disingenuous backpedaling.

Admiration is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills.

Exactly. And I don't see why people bitch about teacher salaries given:

1. How important good teachers are to society's future.

2. How grossly overpaid people are in many other professions that aren't nearly as important to the progress of society.

I mean I get some of the gripes about not having enough accountability, tenure making it to hard to fire bad teachers etc. But those are different issues and aside from the point of what good teachers deserve to be paid.

[berzirk]

If I was a teacher and I heard this nonsense I'd reply in 5 succinct words "Money talks and bullshit walks"

You see, the way we value things is a capitalist society is money. So it's nice that you "admire" teachers but apparently you don't value the extensive education and training they must acquire, or the fact that class hours don't tell the whole picture, or their overall contribution to society. So forgive me if I find this last post to be an exercise in disingenuous backpedaling.

Admiration is all well and good but it doesn't pay the bills.

I don't value the educational and training requirements? Of course I do. It's expensive, and at least in the State of Oregon, a Masters is required. They are incredibly expensive (as the proud husband of a now student-loanless wife). In fact in my other post I mention that I lost out on a teaching job I really wanted because I hadn't yet taken any classes. When did I ever say otherwise? Also, when did I say that I don't understand teachers spend lots of time out of the classroom working? You're arguing points I haven't made. Did you mean to quote someone else?

and yet you manage to not point out where anyone said teaching is the most stressful job in the world. My question remains, are you making that up or are you a numbskull that read that into some oether post where someone said it is a stressful job and that means it's the only stressful job?

My point is that it's not the only stressful job, so using that as the reason why teachers should have summers off, or are underpaid is silly. But to answer your question, I'm a numbskull.

I didn't ask you to list all of your benefits and time off. I simply stated that you get paid time off at your job. If you're going to go down the line of thinking that "teachers get the summer off of work and still get paid" then you can take a paid vacation too. You're comparing oranges and calling one of them a pineapple because it somehow fits the frame of the argument you've setup. It doesn't.

I don't get 10 weeks of paid anything off. That's the duration of a California teacher's summer break. I fail to see how that becomes a pineapple.

So you personally know 3 teachers and applied to be one yourself. Why are you ragging on the profession? Feel free to presume that I'm calling them whatever, you're the one that has done it throughout this thread. Again, stupid or just making stuff up because you're bored?

No, I personally know a lot more than that, but I guess I should've cleared their views through you first. Is email or fax better for you? Do they need to get their statements notorized to be validated by you, or can a personal witness attest to their statement? They list out the summers off as the biggest perk of the job. It's sensational for families because they can spend the breaks together, and the retirement and benefits packages are very competitive as well. I am stupid and bored, have no basis for an opinion on the profession through first hand knowledge, personal investigation, and relationships with lots of educators. Also, I have bad breath and a zit on my ass today.

[willardhaven]

Jav's riding around in the overpriced Honda complaining about teacher money.

Just playing.