CAGcast #270: Man Down

CheapyD

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[preview][IMG-L=5838]15060[/IMG-L]Wombat hatches Kickstarter schemes, Shipwreck looks to take home the gold, and CheapyD doesn't have to sniff underwear. Also, Kingdoms of Amalur talk and discussion on the worst job in the gaming industry.

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Intro/Outro: atom - plus 1 - Mulatto Butts (Archer)

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Dude, Wombat, you've got to think about the timing of this Double Fine Kickstarter project. It launched while Tim Schaefer was attending DICE. It's pretty clear this was intended to be some kind of experiment/proof of concept. It doesn't really have anything to do with whether they could have independently funded the project themselves. It was about discovering how viable crowd-sourcing could be as a potential avenue to obtain funding for themselves, and other developers of a similar size and pedigree.

Maybe next time they won't have to sign an exclusivity deal with Microsoft to get something like Trenched made, or need a wealthy fan to make PC ports of games like Stacking and Costume Quest.

With fans basically acting like venture capital, big questions remain about whether "contributors" ought to in fact be considered investors with the right to share in potential profits, but this particular project has clearly gone far past everyone's expectations. Over time Kickstarter will probably have to evolve into something like Kiva with funding caps and returns on investment, but this is a really fascinating first step down this road.
 
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Hey wombat,

In regards to Double Fine's Kickstarter; I would say they have a lot of incentive to produce a good game. The immediate financial risk may not be there but there would be a monumental backlash from fans who contributed money to this project if they did spend $100K making a shit game.

I would also consider that the reason this is working for Double Fine is because they have a reputation (to their fans) of making good games and people trust them to make this point and click adventure game. If they mess up it could very well cause the demise of Double Fine, loss of jobs and certainly loss of any trust or enthusiasm people hold for the company. I'm sure Tim Schafer would pull through but things would definitely take a turn for the worse.

Just my thoughts. I think it's pretty good that they're doing this as my current understanding of the industry is that publishers may have too much influence on certain parts of game production.
 
Man, I would love to see Shippy coaching in action.

About Kickstarter, I think it was a combination of experimentation and also seeing the interest in the game as well. We have to remember that they're doing this for a point-and-click adventure game which isn't hugely profitable these days. And asking fans to back them, allows them a lot more freedom without pressure from the publishers. I understand Wombat's point but maybe he was too critical about it. I don't think Double Fine knew they would get such a huge amount of money for it. Their original goal was $400k after all.

I think other companies have done something similar. For example, Telltale allows people to preorder their adventure games on their site when they're not even made or completed. Remember that they allow you to preorder full seasons like their Monkey Island and BTTF games and you'll get bonuses like DVD versions and special packaging. It's not all that different than the bonuses offered from people on Kickstarter.

Btw, I think Cheapy should check out KoA: Reckoning. While I agree that the game isn't quite as charming or funny as characters in Fable or Skyrim, I really enjoy the combat and some sidestories. It's a pretty game too. I love the look of it. Oh yea Shippy, the game allows you to experiment with different powers and weapons so if you find the combat a grind, switch up the weapons, they're a lot of fun. I've been messing around with various skills and they really mix them up quite well.
 
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What exactly do you mean by categorizing the Internet celebrities? Almost everyone I saw on the thread did. Not giving the DLC away when you said you were is kind of a dick move.

Also, sorry the show thread didn't please you Wombat. I don't know what you expect in a feedback thread where you're giving shit away. Of course people are going to hear that and just bullshit it to try to get free stuff. Posting a new thread for a giveaway is probably your best bet.

On a slightly leas negative note I do indeed want to see a montage of Shipwreck coaching, ideally narrated by you three.

Finally, fuck yes to Tiny Wings Wombat. I love that shit.
 
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To Wombat's views on the Double Fine Kickstarter project:

I think the key thing to keep in mind is that this shows that crowd-funding a game is entirely possible. If you look out across the landscape of gaming today, you have a handful of well-funded AAA titles and a bustling indie scene, but "the middle" is becoming increasingly sparse. The risks of making games is all too clear, with reports of studio closures and publisher woes becoming more and more common. Granted, Double Fine is an established studio with a well-known studio head, but the most intriguing element of this experiment is that it shows that games can be made without publisher involvement. Seems like a pretty promising proof of concept to me.

Another thing Wombat should keep in mind is that the entire studio most likely won't be working on this single crowd-funded adventure game. The past year or two has made it pretty obvious that Double Fine's staff breaks into smaller teams and works on multiple titles concurrently.
 
[quote name='pete_brasler']Just picked up Kingdoms of Amalur today - before listening to the podcast. Dammit - I'm still looking forward to it![/QUOTE]

It's a good game, it just needs a little extra to make it great.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']It's a good game, it just needs a little extra to make it great.[/QUOTE]

If it just had awful combat and tons of bugs it could be as good as Skyrim. :)
 
Wombat, the game double fine was trying to make is a classic adventure game so of course its going to be risky. That alone is great justification to kickstart the project so those who are interested can fund the niche game they want. I thinly Wombat may be a tad jealous :\
 
Great show, great show. I get Wombat's point on DF, but I think the response is that going to Kickstarter has advantages *besides• the fundraising. It's almost like having a focus group that pays you to respond to pre-release gameplay descriptions.

And Cheapy, be a mensch and go help your boy clean up after a mess. I think Wombat and Shipwreck can hold their own for a few minutes while you go help him out.
 
/pause cagcast

Wow, only Wombat would bitch about something as awesome as the Double Fine kickstarter news. Wombat, why do you think dev studios even go to publishers in the first place? Because they need funding. That was seriously like 10 minutes of Wombat ranting out of his ass. I feel dumber now for listening. An iconic dev literally making a game for the fans and you still have to find something to complain about. You small bitter cynical man.

/resume cagcast
 
[quote name='polly']/pause cagcast

Wow, only Wombat would bitch about something as awesome as the Double Fine kickstarter news. Wombat, why do you think dev studios even go to publishers in the first place? Because they need funding. That was seriously like 10 minutes of Wombat ranting out of his ass. I feel dumber now for listening. An iconic dev literally making a game for the fans and you still have to find something to complain about. You small bitter cynical man.

/resume cagcast[/QUOTE]

He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.

I think Double Fine and maybe Valve would be the only companies that could pull this off. Could you imagine Activision doing this for MW4?
 
I agree with most everything Wombat said about Double Fine. I do think it's a good way to raise money, but it does feel a tad desperate. That's just my opinion. :)
 
My main problem with Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning is that it plays like a fanfic. It takes a bunch of pieces from other RPGs and doesn't really build anything on top of it. In fact, they were so insistant on mimicing their favorite games that they didn't bother to try and evolve with the genre like those other franchises have. For example, they still use the antiquated item repair that Elder Scrolls has dropped; and interacting with people is not dynamic, you have to wait for them to stand up before they start talking. It just makes the game feel dated.

And Ship, why didn't you talk about what you did for your birthday? Now I have to make something up for the Boatcrash Chronicles, and who knows how that will turn out...
 
Honestly this was one of the worst episodes ever, wombat actually did a valiant job to try to resuscitate it... and you didn't even answer my cagbag question!?!?

yeah the double fine thing is totally marketing. People do kickstarter to spread the word about their product/event, not because they need the money.
 
[quote name='Porksta']He raised some good points. Wombat I mean.
[/QUOTE]

He made, literally, no good points.

Shipwreck: "I think it's pretty clear Wombat doesn't know what he's talking about."

Truth.
 
ok. I don't really have issues with Wombat's comments on Kickstarter. I do have issues with him claiming he has a story on Tim Schaefer and then saying "oh but I can't say it here." You went so far as to say he is a douche, might as well take the plunge in the name of entertainment. Besides, it's not like he would hunt you down to kick your ass. I'm sure he has had many a tale told on his douche baggery.
 
[quote name='basston3s']ok. I don't really have issues with Wombat's comments on Kickstarter. I do have issues with him claiming he has a story on Tim Schaefer and then saying "oh but I can't say it here." You went so far as to say he is a douche, might as well take the plunge in the name of entertainment. Besides, it's not like he would hunt you down to kick your ass. I'm sure he has had many a tale told on his douche baggery.[/QUOTE]

I would love to tell the story, but honestly it is not my place to tell and it would hurt others that I do care about. But yes, I should not have brought it up.
 
To some extent I agree with Wombat, kickstarter should be used by people who legitimately have few if any options to raise funding for their project(s). A large % of the cash raised is likely from Double Fine fans who specifically went onto kickstarter to fund the project, but I am sure some portion of the cash is money from regular kickstarter visitors which was not spent on one of the other projects whose sole option for funding is kickstarter.

The extreme metaphor would be a person who makes a decent living, but periodically dresses up in ratty clothes and goes down to the soup kitchen for a free meal. Leave the free meal to those who need it.
 
Tim Schaefer sold poison milk to schoolchildren.

[quote name='testudo']yeah the double fine thing is totally marketing. People do kickstarter to spread the word about their product/event, not because they need the money.[/QUOTE]

Some people may do it for publicity, but other people really do need the money. The Double Fine kickstarter is for one particular game that they probably wouldn't have made without getting funded by fans because point and click adventures aren't popular with publishers anymore. It's not the only game the studio is going to be working on in 2012.
 
Wow, I've been an avid listener since about episode 50 or so. I've been on this wagon for quite a long time and never have I found Wombat to be so angry, confused, mislead, wrong, etc.....

First of all if you are going to play devils advocate then please don't immediately follow that up with an "I feel" statement. Clearly if you feel that the whole Doublefine Kickstarter project is crap that's not really playing devils advocate. When playing devils advocate you should really be pointing out legitimate issues, not feelings. Good God!

Oh wait, if I didn't already feel dumber for having to listen to Wombats viewpoint on the Doublefine Kickstarter project I then get to hear him talk about the super exciting world of inventory management in Kingdoms of Amular. Let me say that again, INVENTORY MANAGEMENT. Really?

Holy shit Wombat, I love you and I'm going to chalk this one up to you not feeling well so please, for the sake of the Cagcast, please get well soon.
 
[quote name='jbug617']Double Fine's smaller games seem to me they have a little Brutal Legend in them.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure all of their smaller XBLA releases were built using the Brutal Legend Engine.
 
[quote name='Curufinwe']If it just had awful combat and tons of bugs it could be as good as Skyrim. :)[/QUOTE]

Lol. Every complaint about KOA:R that Ship made about the game could be slung at Skyrim too.

- Quests where you "go here, get this, bring it back". Then having a lot of them that don't link.
- Combat that gets old and just trying to get to the next quest point.
- Bad storytelling
- Grabbing items for quests but they don't tell you what for.

Every. Single. Complaint.
 
Someone could make another issue of Bullsh** Quarterly with all the comments Wombat made. I'm usually not bothered by Wombat, but to claim he's playing Devil's Advocate and then say, "I hear Tim Schafer is a douche"? Even CheapyD and Shipwreck seemed put off by the comment.
 
[quote name='4thHorseman']Lol. Every complaint about KOA:R that Ship made about the game could be slung at Skyrim too.

- Quests where you "go here, get this, bring it back". Then having a lot of them that don't link.
- Combat that gets old and just trying to get to the next quest point.
- Bad storytelling
- Grabbing items for quests but they don't tell you what for.

Every. Single. Complaint.[/QUOTE]

Skyrim's storytelling is leaps and bounds above Amalur's. And one of the main reasons that Skyrim's quest structure is so much more interesting to me is that Skyrim is an incredible world to explore. Amalur is a flat overworld with predetermined pathways that never give me any sense of discovery. Combat in Skyrim also progresses much nicer as you become stronger and better at the various attack methods and strategy can come into play more. Enemies in Skyrim are more varied and level with your character. This isn't really the case in Amalur as enemy levels are dictated by the region you are in and the enemies' abilities aren't as seemingly random as they are in Skyrim. I could write a thesis on every way that Skyrim is the superior game, but Skyrim is probably my favorite game of all time. Amalur is okay, but it's not as good as all the games it was cobbled together from: World of Warcraft, Fable II, Torchlight, and Skyrim.
 
I know Wombat was playing devil's advocate to some degree in regards to the Double Fine/Kickstarter situation, but Shipwreck and Cheapy's slowly growing contempt for Wombat since the "Great E3 debacle" really showed itself with Shipwreck's comment; "I think it's pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about here, but keep going."

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PS: Love the show!!!
 
[quote name='GamerInterface'] And Cheapy, be a mensch and go help your boy clean up after a mess. I think Wombat and Shipwreck can hold their own for a few minutes while you go help him out.[/QUOTE]
there wasn't any mess. It was just a little pee pee in his underwear, not a full piss load.
 
the end is near because wombat actually made sense. all he was saying is because that company raised the money for their game the way they did these no risk involved all they have to do is complete it and thats it.

who really knows how much it costs to make a game and more than that from here in they could change their mind on what type or size of game they want to make and do the bare minimum to satisfy their end of the deal ( giving those who paid 15 bucks a free copy of the game) and walk away with whats left and any money they make on sales is a cherry on top.
 
So even though running around shooting people in confined maps in Call of Battlefield is the most popular thing going in gaming right now, doing the same thing in a car, a la Twisted Metal, is somehow 10 years obsolete and out of touch with gamers today.

Makes sense to me!
 
Well between the Kickstarter announcement and now I've read at least 4 different articles articulating this position, the biggest one being "developers don't make money off sales." As popular as Double Fine's games could be, all their money is made from the upfront investment by the publisher, who then recoup that investment through sales. And depending on the contract only after that does the developer make money from each sale.

The big issue I take is that people do not need a financial incentive to do nice things. They need a financial incentive to do something so as to not starve, but how good it is does not directly scale with value invested. Yes there are some things that more money can bring, but that is only magnified by the talent, it does not attribute to it.

/unpause podcast
 
Good luck with the big game Shipwreck. Coaching kids is one those great things that everyone should try at least once.
 
I dont really care about the whole Kickstarter thing because Double Fine is just making a point and click game. I don't like those kinda of games but if the game they were making instead of a point and click, like a cool action platformer but made for the xbla i would probably put in $15. As for Twisted Metal goes, its probably not gonna sell well, hell even Resistance 3 didn't sell good but that game was the best of the Resistance series. Twisted Metal maybe should be $40 or $50 instead of $60 but this game is made for the fans and its not gonna turn you into a fan if you never liked the franchise, but I am going to support Jaffe and I think he is brilliant and unique and I hope he continues to make games.

Love the show and I listen every week.
 
[quote name='billyok']So even though running around shooting people in confined maps in Call of Battlefield is the most popular thing going in gaming right now, doing the same thing in a car, a la Twisted Metal, is somehow 10 years obsolete and out of touch with gamers today.

Makes sense to me![/QUOTE]

I know right? The thing with the demo is that it didn't feel like a complete representation of Twisted Metal being that one of the main attractions to the games are the characters and the storyline(s) of which the demo doesn't show. It has one map, two modes, and about half of the vehicles the game offers. I actually did enjoy the demo and I've been a fan of the series since 2 so I'm looking forward to this game.

As for the whole Double Fine thing does this make someone like the AVGN a bad person for e-begging people so he can make his movie? Isn't it basically the same?
 
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Wombat, I just got over being sick so I'm going to attribute your Double Fine/Kickstarter rant to not feeling well. Otherwise, they're not taking money out of your pocket and/or ruining the industry so I don't see what the big deal is. I can usually get behind your whole "devil's advocate" role but no one else was really taking a stand on the issue, so I'm not sure which "side" you were really playing to.

I do wholeheartedly agree with all the thoughts on the XBL dashboard. I know the dash update has received a lot of criticism already but filing through the latest DLC releases is a hassle. It's just pages and pages of Rock Band. Every day. Instead of a car commercial, how about a link to Rock Band DLC on the dash? That will at least be valuable to some people. You know it's bad when the PSN store is better organized.

I'm assuming you guys gave out that DLC and just didn't say who won but if not, that really sucks. The last show's comment thread was just chalked full of exactly what you asked for Cheapy.
 
[quote name='Just-Joe']I know right? The thing with the demo is that it didn't feel like a complete representation of Twisted Metal being that one of the main attractions to the games are the characters and the storyline(s) of which the demo doesn't show. It has one map, two modes, and about half of the vehicles the game offers. I actually did enjoy the demo and I've been a fan of the series since 2 so I'm looking forward to this game[/QUOTE]

Online is the focus of this Twisted Metal. I don't think CheapyD played online at all because of the matchmaking errors. Wombat calling the game "Calling All Cars 2" is completely stupid and shows he's ignorant to the depth. Seemed like they were talking a lot about a game they didn't know anything about, which tends to happen on this show. Love you guys!

I liked the demo and it only got better the more I played it. The depth of the game will not come across in the early hours of play.
 
I agree with Wombat about Double Fine and Kickstarter. This move reeks of desperation from Double Fine.

Psychonauts was the first and best game produced by the studio, Brutal Legend was crap and as a result the studio could not get anymore publishing deals. That essentially turned them into a XBLA/PSN games developer that tend to get good reviews from journalists who cannot seperate the Lucas Arts-era Tim Schafer from the one who is churning out mediocre digital games. Despite the critical handjobs these game get, the gaming public is largely apathetic to their output.

Tim Schafer used the goodwill he earned in the 90's to bait nostalgic gamers who have largely ignored his 00's output to fund his next project. That goes against the spirit of Kickstarter, which is intended for people with no viable way of funding an idea, not established businesses that have pretty much failed over the past ten years and are desperate to remain relevant.
 
What pissed me off about the TM demo is that I saw Cheapy having all the issues connecting online and David Jaffe talk about them being fixed last week, then when I tried to play it Wednesday it was already locked and you couldn't play it at all.
 
[quote name='guardian_owl']To some extent I agree with Wombat, kickstarter should be used by people who legitimately have few if any options to raise funding for their project(s). A large % of the cash raised is likely from Double Fine fans who specifically went onto kickstarter to fund the project, but I am sure some portion of the cash is money from regular kickstarter visitors which was not spent on one of the other projects whose sole option for funding is kickstarter.

The extreme metaphor would be a person who makes a decent living, but periodically dresses up in ratty clothes and goes down to the soup kitchen for a free meal. Leave the free meal to those who need it.[/QUOTE]

No, that would be extremely flawed metaphor. This project raised a tremendous amount of cash in 24 hours, which means it was completely demand driven. It is not like people wake up each morning, turn on their computers and then try to figure what kickstart project they are going to fund today. You might as well say amazon or starbucks or the red cross are also starving other kickstarter projects as well, since people spend money at those places....money that could be spent on kickstarter projects.

It seems like alot of the griping about this sounds like 'oh, double fine isn't indy enough' to be using kickstarter, which just strikes me as petty bullshit. It isn't like EA is doing this to fund Madden kergillion. If anything, this thing probably introduced the kickstarter concept to whole lot more people, which likely means more backers and more projects in the future.

Wombat seemed to focus on the 'easy money' aspect, but the key thing in my mind is less the access to capital but rather the clear indication of demand for the product, which is an ADVENTURE GAME. No publisher is going to touch an adventure game in this day and age (I believe Telltale self-publishes their own works), and given Double Fine's past problems with publishers on Psychonauts and Brutal Legend, it isn't surprising they might want see if there were other options out there. And while they probably could get the capital to finance it via more traditional ways, this route clearly shows they have an audience for the product right out of the gate....it may not be a massive audience (they have about 40K+ backers at the moment) but it is sufficiently motivated audience to put their money into the product ahead of time. At a basic level, this isn't really too far removed from gamestop taking a pre order on something, outside of the fact that it cuts out all the middlemen between the producer and the end consumer and that it didn't cost Double Fine a penny in marketing costs.
 
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