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#91 SEGAMew   Sonic Obsessed CAGiversary!   389 Posts   Joined 8.6 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:50 PM

Nier is OOS *sobs*

#92 Kazaganthi   Blue Rogue CAGiversary!   1947 Posts   Joined 15.6 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:27 PM

Nier is OOS *sobs*


I cannot recommend Nier enough, I hope those who didn't get it eventually find it. Earlier this year I took Nier out of my backlog and I could not put it down, it's a really great game and prompted me to write this sig. If you own it, definitely take it out of your backlog as soon as you can. Lots of praise coming from just this thread, makes me want to play the game again and I got all 4 endings already.

Already own WKCII, PoP Trilogy, Two Worlds 2 ($10 Gamefly before I knew GOTY/velvet would come out), and Child of Eden. So I bought El Shaddai.

#93 Vinny   Bang, bang... pew... CAGiversary!   22828 Posts   Joined 15.1 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:41 PM

Man, I guess I should have placed an order for Nier. I skipped it because the reviews were pretty bad but didn't think there would be so much praise for this game in this thread. Fuck.

#94 iNCREDiPiNOY   This guy is awesome! CAGiversary!   9061 Posts   Joined 12.1 Years Ago  

iNCREDiPiNOY

Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:49 PM

Shipped :D

#95 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:51 PM

Man, I guess I should have placed an order for Nier. I skipped it because the reviews were pretty bad but didn't think there would be so much praise for this game in this thread. Fuck.


Never... EVER read reviews for JRPGs. Unless, of course, it's from a youtuber that is well versed in the genre or some of RPGamers reviews it's basically a waste of time. Most just end up bitching about things that are part of the freaking genre. They're laughably useless.

#96 GaMeR_2007   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   931 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

GaMeR_2007

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:14 PM

Shipped :D


Mine alteady did too. :-D

#97 RollingSkull   Banned Banned   6307 Posts   Joined 15.2 Years Ago  

RollingSkull

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:24 PM

Never... EVER read reviews for JRPGs. Unless, of course, it's from a youtuber that is well versed in the genre or some of RPGamers reviews it's basically a waste of time. Most just end up bitching about things that are part of the freaking genre. They're laughably useless.

Pretty much this. The JRPG genre is MEANT to have subpar gameplay, never seeking to actually challenge or engage the gamer. Pacing is supposed to be nonexistent, story-telling as ham-handed and hilariously bad as possible. In fact, really, at no point when playing a JRPG are you really supposed to have fun from the actual gameplay. If you did, then it simply wouldn't be a JRPG.

I will never, EVER understand the praise Nier gets. It's like Limbo in that regard

#98 Vanillanowah   Mmm, vanilla-ey. CAGiversary!   56 Posts   Joined 8.5 Years Ago  

Vanillanowah

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:27 PM

I'm so glad Nier is sold out, such an underrated game, it's great people are finally buying it and giving it a chance, even if it's only $10. The bigger the fanbase, the bigger my hopes for a sequel!

#99 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:36 PM

Pretty much this. The JRPG genre is MEANT to have subpar gameplay, never seeking to actually challenge or engage the gamer. Pacing is supposed to be nonexistent, story-telling as ham-handed and hilariously bad as possible. In fact, really, at no point when playing a JRPG are you really supposed to have fun from the actual gameplay. If you did, then it simply wouldn't be a JRPG.

I will never, EVER understand the praise Nier gets. It's like Limbo in that regard


Then you don't like the genre. That doesn't mean it's bad. Don't play them! Likewise, I won't go play an FPS and bitch about shooting people. Racing games also have far too much racing in them, and why are all football games about stupid assed football!? I have never been more engaged in a game (except for DMC on DMD mode) than playing a really difficult boss in a JRPG. When it comes down to just BARELY staying alive and winning with one of four people left alive with like ten HP. Saying they aren't challenging or engaging just means you have either played shitty ones, or are doing it wrong. Go play and SMT then say they aren't challenging... lol :roll:

#100 croqoa   Turd Sandwich CAGiversary!   228 Posts   Joined 9.5 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:38 PM

Not that it matters much at this point, but add another person to the "fans of Nier" group. Even picked up the soundtrack as well, it is amongst the best ever.

El Shaddai on the other hand I really was not a fan of at all. I didn't really like the graphical style and the combat was really, really monotonous. Nier might not have the most groundbreaking combat ever but at least you had a variety of weapons and magic you could use. This game had all of 3 weapons, a handful of enemy types, and nothing else ever.

#101 RollingSkull   Banned Banned   6307 Posts   Joined 15.2 Years Ago  

RollingSkull

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:43 PM

Then you don't like the genre. That doesn't mean it's bad. Don't play them! Likewise, I won't go play an FPS and bitch about shooting people. Racing games also have far too much racing in them, and why are all football games about stupid assed football!? I have never been more engaged in a game (except for DMC on DMD mode) than playing a really difficult boss in a JRPG. When it comes down to just BARELY staying alive and winning with one of four people left alive with like ten HP. Saying they aren't challenging or engaging just means you have either played shitty ones, or are doing it wrong... lol

It's one or the other champ. Either bad JRPGs exist or the genre is meant to be bad. What I posted is essentially what you are saying when you use "You just don't like the genre" in the face of any and all criticism.

#102 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:48 PM

I disagreed on the challenge and being engaged. Some have pacing problems, and I completely disagree about the point on the story (there are obviously bad ones, but that doesn't mean it's ALL of them). That is why I said you just clearly don't like the genre, champ.

#103 gantt   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   3000 Posts   Joined 13.2 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:57 PM

Pretty much this. The JRPG genre is MEANT to have subpar gameplay, never seeking to actually challenge or engage the gamer. Pacing is supposed to be nonexistent, story-telling as ham-handed and hilariously bad as possible. In fact, really, at no point when playing a JRPG are you really supposed to have fun from the actual gameplay. If you did, then it simply wouldn't be a JRPG.


You mean... it's not just me that thought that? After all these years... (breaks down, sobbing)

Seriously, I haven't played them enough to agree or disagree, but I do think they are - how you say - "an acquired taste."

#104 affa   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   4677 Posts   Joined 10.2 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:05 PM

Never... EVER read reviews for JRPGs. Unless, of course, it's from a youtuber that is well versed in the genre or some of RPGamers reviews it's basically a waste of time. Most just end up bitching about things that are part of the freaking genre. They're laughably useless.


I remember avoiding Nier like the plague because of this review:

http://www.joystiq.c...er-review-fail/

Then many moons later, i read more reviews and ended up getting it on sale for like $20. and now it sits in my backlog, though it's on the short list.

#105 jw430   Some say... CAGiversary!   171 Posts   Joined 10.4 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:07 PM

I don't know if anyone mention it yet, but the last ending for Nier requires you to delete your save files. Just FYI

#106 affa   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   4677 Posts   Joined 10.2 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:09 PM

It's one or the other champ. Either bad JRPGs exist or the genre is meant to be bad. What I posted is essentially what you are saying when you use "You just don't like the genre" in the face of any and all criticism.


i don't think he's saying bad jrpgs don't exist -- obviously, they exist. he's taking issue with your complete and total panning of the entire genre. i'm not sure how you're working that into 'it's one or the other', except by misrepresenting what he's saying. as for what you're saying, you sure do sound like you hate the genre -- and if that's not what you're trying to say, it sure came across that way.

#107 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:18 PM

Nothing as objective and factual as outright hate. I'm sure he's played quite a few of them to completion, too. I mean, it would just be madness to make such a sweeping generalization about a whole genre without having a pretty good amount of experience in it. Of course, that would be madness...

#108 mkaliaz   Scurvy Dog CAGiversary!   407 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:22 PM

Picked up White Knight Chronicles 2. Read that it included the original game which is amazing. That was the tipping point.

Also picked up Child of Eden due to the great reviews. Figured it is probably worth $10.

Nier is in the backlog sadly. Might be moving that up. Everyone is praising the hell out of it here.

El Shaddai.....I cannot recommend. I thought it was extremely boring and below average in all regards.

#109 RollingSkull   Banned Banned   6307 Posts   Joined 15.2 Years Ago  

RollingSkull

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:42 PM

i don't think he's saying bad jrpgs don't exist -- obviously, they exist. he's taking issue with your complete and total panning of the entire genre. i'm not sure how you're working that into 'it's one or the other', except by misrepresenting what he's saying. as for what you're saying, you sure do sound like you hate the genre -- and if that's not what you're trying to say, it sure came across that way.

You need to follow the chain of the discussion to the source of what I was replying to. What I think of JRPGs is irrelevant. I'm attacking the idea that JRPG reviews, especially for a game like Nier that got a tremendous spread of reviews ranging across the board and with largely legitimate issues and praise as somehow being "useless" because they don't "get the genre." It's a downright ignorant statement to make and one that precludes any sort of critical thought.

#110 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:50 PM

No, it isn't. Reviewers from most sites review games based on what's popular today. NIER has dated graphics and B- gameplay (Note, that means it's nothing special, but in no way bad). Most bad NIER reviews I've read slammed it hard for graphics. Really, that is what our metric for 'good games' is going to be? It's bollocks at its purest form. Everything else about it is fantastic. It is among the best examples of why mainstream reviews suck for JRPGs. I have read so many JRPG reviews that complain about: random battles / difficulty that requires some grinding / too much exposition for the story / etc etc. Those are just parts of the genre. Just because joe schmoe doesn't like them does not mean they are flaws.

When reviewers complain about those things, and others of their ilk, it simply shows that they do not like the genre. That is why I brought up too much shooting in FPS or too much damn sports in Madden 12. Bitching about genre staples means you aren't equipped to review games of that genre. Given how big a genre JRPGs are, and how much of a fan base they have, there is obviously something to it. If it's not someone's cup of tea, then it's not. That doesn't mean that things they don't enjoy about them are bad.

To polish off the NIER point: I have never spoken to someone, who played it through to completion, that didn't have mild to very high praise for it. That is, of course, not counting people that outright hate the genre. No one cares what they think because their opinions are not useful. My opinion on sports and racing games is completely useless because I don't like them. And yet, many, many reviews bashed the crap out of NIER. So let's recap: people like/love it, reviewers bashed it. Are our mainstream reviewers really equipped to review this genre? That, by the way, is a rhetorical question.

#111 rpg  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:55 PM

I remember avoiding Nier like the plague because of this review:

http://www.joystiq.c...er-review-fail/

Then many moons later, i read more reviews and ended up getting it on sale for like $20. and now it sits in my backlog, though it's on the short list.

That guy was fishing in the wrong :censored: place.
In the video he made u can see his map showing a big red x mark:roll:


I don't know if anyone mention it yet, but the last ending for Nier requires you to delete your save files. Just FYI

i forget but is the save file protected if not u can always save it on a usb flash drive or psn+

ps nier = amazing game :drool:

#112 Ryuukishi   My ambitionz az a Ryder CAGiversary!   11226 Posts   Joined 11.3 Years Ago  

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:57 PM

You need to follow the chain of the discussion to the source of what I was replying to. What I think of JRPGs is irrelevant. I'm attacking the idea that JRPG reviews, especially for a game like Nier that got a tremendous spread of reviews ranging across the board and with largely legitimate issues and praise as somehow being "useless" because they don't "get the genre." It's a downright ignorant statement to make and one that precludes any sort of critical thought.

I like JRPGs and I agree with this. No other genre's fans are as defensive and unable to abide any criticism of their pet games. There are great JRPGs out there but there are also a lot that are flawed, uninspired, underdeveloped, or just plain mediocre. Calling a spade a spade does not need to be treated as an attack on an entire genre.

#113 Dominick331   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   258 Posts   Joined 9.2 Years Ago  

Dominick331

Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:58 PM

Finally convinced a friend to pick up Nier on this deal, but it was sold out by that time! ARGH!

Great deal for anyone who was able to get in on it.

#114 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:00 AM

I like JRPGs and I agree with this. No other genre's fans are as defensive and unable to abide any criticism of their pet games. There are great JRPGs out there but there are also a lot that are flawed, uninspired, underdeveloped, or just plain mediocre. Calling a spade a spade does not need to be treated as an attack on an entire genre.


Very true, I've played God awful JRPGs. The person I am in a discussion with, however, is making sweeping statements about the ENTIRE genre. He is also defending that reviewers do a fine job on them. Many of the best JRPGs I've ever played have been slammed to high heaven for things that are just part of the genre, simply because the reviewer is clearly not a fan of them. Once again, NIER is an amazing example of this.

#115 RollingSkull   Banned Banned   6307 Posts   Joined 15.2 Years Ago  

RollingSkull

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:02 AM

Nier's graphics are terrible. That's worth noting. There's no sense in not mentioning it. You don't have to bristle when it is mentioned.

And no, everything else about Nier most certainly isn't fantastic. That's an opinion at best.

Your definition of genre staples is so loosely defined that you can delegitimize ANY review by describing any perceived flaw as a "genre staple." I buy lots of Warriors games, I've enjoyed Monster Hunter, I play JRPGs but a lot of their genre staples are indefensible garbage. There are legitimate complaints to be made, just as a 4 hour shooter campaign isn't a genre staple, it is something worth mentioning

#116 Ryuukishi   My ambitionz az a Ryder CAGiversary!   11226 Posts   Joined 11.3 Years Ago  

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:06 AM

Very true, I've played God awful JRPGs. The person I am in a discussion with, however, is making sweeping statements about the ENTIRE genre. He is also defending that reviewers do a fine job on them. Many of the best JRPGs I've ever played have been slammed to high heaven for things that are just part of the genre, simply because the reviewer is clearly not a fan of them. Once again, NIER is an amazing example of this.

Well how about Nier. I haven't played it so maybe I'm off base with this. But the problem seems to be reviews that call out the bad graphics and clunky gameplay.

Fans reply, "But the music and story are amazing. And bad graphics and gameplay are par for the course with RPGs."

Well who says bad graphics and clunky gameplay have to be expected in an RPG? Plenty of RPGs look and play great.

Maybe the good things about Nier outweigh the bad things. That seems to be the case based on the testimonials in this thread. But that doesn't mean the game doesn't also have flaws and calling it on its flaws doesn't mean you don't get the genre.

#117 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:13 AM

Yes, they are terrible. No, it does not ruin or really even mar the experience. If that bugs a person, they are superficial and shallow. Nier's soundtrack is incredible. Even negative reviews praised it. The story, likewise, is fantastic. It is very different from most JRPG stories (unique is good) and progressively gets better and better. By the time one has seen all endings it has become something truly memorable. The game also has a genuine tone of sadness. Not overblown melodrama like in many Final Fantasy games, just truly sad. It is an experience that will stick with a person long after it is complete. I struggle with even calling these things opinions. I have played a lot of JRPGs. I'm in a very good position to judge NIER against other games of its genre. I can make these claims with confidence. Also, have you read all the other NIER praise in this thread?

Here are some very common mindsets, which can often be seen with many reviewers, that purvey the opinions of so many people today. These might hurt a persons enjoyment of NIER:
Not enough combos, why can't this be God Of War?
The graphics aren't pretty enough. I've hated all games before this gen because of the graphics and I can't enjoy anything unless it has cutting edge visuals.
Why isn't the world bigger. Why can't this game be Skyrim?

I also gave some specific examples of genre staples. Have you been reading my posts? The need to grind (how much is debatable) / Random battles / Lots of time spent on story exposition or character development.


Ryuukishi:
RPGs have substance. NIER has dated visuals, that in no way takes away from it being an amazing game. Two of the best games I played last year were Radiant Historia and Trails in the Sky. Those certainly weren't up to today's standards for graphics either. Berating a game like NIER due to dated graphics really shows that the person should probably just be reviewing COD instead. It's not what's important in JRPGs. Those things (bad gameplay/graphics) don't have to be expected in an RPG. It just happens to be a genre where even if they are present the game can still be truly amazing. On that note, the gameplay in NIER is by no means bad, it's just not great. Bad gameplay would actually legitimately mar the game. If someone cares about graphics that much, I can't imagine they are the type of person to like RPGs anyway.

#118 therealdanhill   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1037 Posts   Joined 7.8 Years Ago  

therealdanhill

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:21 AM

Some reviewers have a preconcieved notion of what the game should be when they get it, and sometimes it doesn't match up with reality. They maybe see what could have been, and have knowledge of other games and things like budgets and time compared to other games and gauge something like graphics on that. I don't think too many reviewers slammed Nier only because of the graphics, though, right?

I mean, nobody is truly totally unbiased. Graphics mean a lot to some people, and paying them a salary to be unbiased in their reviews may make it more subtle, but it's always going to be there, and graphics are a huge thing, not just to a lot of gamers, but to the big studios like Crytek and Square who throw their graphics and engines around more than the actual gameplay in a lot of scenarios.

Yeah, we know better, but you can't expect everyone to, especially when the majority is sucking at the teat of the purveyors of the problem.

Also, Damn, where's the 360 love? 3DS, Vita, anything? :(

#119 Zaku77   \m/ CAGiversary!   4948 Posts   Joined 9.7 Years Ago  

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:23 AM

Some reviewers have a preconcieved notion of what the game should be when they get it, and sometimes it doesn't match up with reality. They maybe see what could have been, and have knowledge of other games and things like budgets and time compared to other games and gauge something like graphics on that. I don't think too many reviewers slammed Nier only because of the graphics, though, right?

I mean, nobody is truly totally unbiased. Graphics mean a lot to some people, and paying them a salary to be unbiased in their reviews may make it more subtle, but it's always going to be there, and graphics are a huge thing, not just to a lot of gamers, but to the big studios like Crytek and Square who throw their graphics and engines around more than the actual gameplay in a lot of scenarios.

Yeah, we know better, but you can't expect everyone to, especially when the majority is sucking at the teat of the purveyors of the problem.

Also, Damn, where's the 360 love? 3DS, Vita, anything? :(


I will bear your children! lol

#120 RollingSkull   Banned Banned   6307 Posts   Joined 15.2 Years Ago  

RollingSkull

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:25 AM

Again, that's your opinion of Nier's story. I categorically disagree with it. I thought Nier's story was horrible. The gameplay was middling and unimpressive. The graphics were drab. The only memorable part was the music.

Maybe it isn't that they DON'T like the genre and should be written off, maybe it's that you're a fanboy and thus similarly incapable of an objective opinion. It can cut both ways.

Trust me, reviewers can't be so easily cut into your silly, childish caricatures, as convenient for you as it would be