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Shooting in Conn. School


#91 Mooby   Herp Derp CAGiversary!   7724 Posts   Joined 4.4 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:55 AM

And how on Earth do you enforce legislation like that? Random home inspections? It's one thing when a measure sounds nice on paper but quite another to have it actually yield pragmatic results.

Either way, I'd still love to see your explanation as to how guns become "illegal."


Eh, I guess you're referring to comments I made several hours ago? I wasn't ducking an answer I simply got up and did something else instead of monitor this thread. How do guns become 'illegal?' You realize there are no shortage of guns that are manufactured outside of the United States, right? So, yes, there's a fairly large black market of unregistered guns flowing into this country.

#92 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6401 Posts   Joined 5.8 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:59 AM

And how on Earth do you enforce legislation like that? Random home inspections? It's one thing when a measure sounds nice on paper but quite another to have it actually yield pragmatic results.

Well Fuck! How the hell do we enforce seatbelt laws! Kinda like how the chain of custody doesn't matter either right?:roll:

#93 Mr. Dza   Paid the cost... CAGiversary!   359 Posts   Joined 8.1 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:03 AM

It blows me away to see people actually saying that armed teachers would have reduced the number of deaths or even completely stopped this. WTF!? More guns are not the answer!

#94 Mooby   Herp Derp CAGiversary!   7724 Posts   Joined 4.4 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:06 AM

Well Fuck! How the hell do we enforce seatbelt laws! Kinda like how the chain of custody doesn't matter either right?:roll:



Why do you keep harping about 'chain of custody' like it's some all important buzzword. Typically the phrase refers to criminal evidence not tracking items in commerce.

And the reality is... some people don't use their seat belts. And anyone cited in violation of those laws are usually pulled over for some other form of moving violation or at a sobriety check point. Anyway, the analogy is fairly inapt. Again, the only way you'd actually see pragmatic results from a law that you propose would be to authorize random home/gun inspections and that will never fly.

People just don't want to admit that sometimes you just can't stop some tragedies from occurring.

#95 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6401 Posts   Joined 5.8 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:09 AM

Eh, I guess you're referring to comments I made several hours ago? I wasn't ducking an answer I simply got up and did something else instead of monitor this thread. How do guns become 'illegal?' You realize there are no shortage of guns that are manufactured outside of the United States, right? So, yes, there's a fairly large black market of unregistered guns flowing into this country.

Wut the...?

Pretend I'm the dumest motherfucker on this forum and explain this to me in as much detail as you can muster.

Why do you keep harping about 'chain of custody' like it's some all important buzzword. Typically the phrase refers to criminal evidence not tracking items in commerce.

Would you prefer "records of ownership" or something? If you're uncomfortable with the term, why aren't you supplying a better one?

And the reality is... some people don't use their seat belts. And anyone cited in violation of those laws are usually pulled over for some other form of moving violation or at a sobriety check point. Anyway, the analogy is fairly inapt. Again, the only way you'd actually see pragmatic results from a law that you propose would be to authorize random home/gun inspections and that will never fly.

We also don't see cops pulling someone over everytime they don't see a seatbelt, but accident statistics have shown that the law works. No one is saying that it's a perfect solution, so I don't know why you're treating like someone is promoting it as one.

People just don't want to admit that sometimes you just can't stop some tragedies from occurring.

No one is saying that anything can stop ALL tragedies from happening, but that we should do things to make sure they happen as seldomly as possible.

Edited by dohdough, 15 December 2012 - 04:22 AM.


#96 soulvengeance   Beating dead horses CAGiversary!   4023 Posts   Joined 11.6 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:15 AM

It blows me away to see people actually saying that armed teachers would have reduced the number of deaths or even completely stopped this. WTF!? More guns are not the answer!


They're also assuming all teachers would like to be armed.
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#97 h3llbring3r   Mecha Cocksmas 2 all CAGiversary!   8991 Posts   Joined 8.2 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:26 AM

Insane. I don't ever see the government doing a full out ban. In fact if they do ban guns I would expect there would be some type of grandfather clause; similar to what was used with the fully automatic weapons.


If the legislation regarding "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines" that was attempted to be included the last cyber security bill is to be the bench mark or foreshadow what is to come, possession would be limited exclusively to current owners with destruction/confiscation following their death. There would be no sale of what you own allowed and no transfer of the prescribed arms period.

Well, I'm more concerned about the "mundane" (by news standards) everyday, routine gun-related killings that tend to be concentrated in certain parts of the country.

You can't stop gun-related killings, but you can minimize their impact (magazine size) and you can seek to reduce the possibility that someone who killed before will do so again.


Enter the limited capacity magazine fallacy. The irony is that a person who can quickly and effectively swap out a ten round magazine is more dangerous the someone wielding a weapon with a cheap high capacity magazine. It takes very little practice to learn to do so. Recent events being the best evidence- what part of his gun caused the jam allowing Loughner to be subdued? His 33 round pistol magazine according to witnesses.

What failed in James Holmes theater shooting causing him to flee?
What jammed in Jacob Roberts' rifle in the mall shooting?

As even the most novice gun owner can testify to it takes much longer to clear a jam than swap a mag.

Sickeningly, I'd rather these people equip themselves thusly than learn how to use something that is in reality far more formidable.


A "single fire" pump action shotgun with an eight round tube- every model of which can be reloaded while firing- pumping out buckshot is far more of a real threat than some attention seeking seeking mental case with a drum fed AR-15. It just lacks the allure and pop-culture draw of the weapons these guys gravitate towards.

While superficially it might seem like a good idea, hobbling "magazine capacity," is more feel good- take that NRA- nonsense than impactful legislation.

For critics who question advocates concern over the incremental creep of gun control, those who have followed the issue for a long time have watched the slippery slope in action in other Western societies that once had liberal gun ownership rights- oftentimes following highly publicized tragedies. Competitive and hobbiest pistol shooters in the UK are well versed in the "registration leads to confiscation" cliche and whether or not it's true. Aussie gun owners watched even "sporting use" (cringes at the inevitable & irrelevant concept vis-à-vis our 2nd amendment) weapons become prohibited. Mr LaPierres often asinine statements aside, it's hardly a mind-Fuck.

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#98 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9183 Posts   Joined 4.5 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:32 AM

They're also assuming all teachers would like to be armed.


My girlfriend asked me why the school didn't have metal detectors... and I'm not sure she realized it was just an elementary school rather then a consolidated K-12 or K-8; but either way it made me really depressed to think that it may come to a point where we have to put metal detectors in at a fucking elementary school (not that it would have fixed anything).

On another note a lot of schools in the area where I grew up do not have points of entry where you can just walk in. In fact you have to be buzzed into the school during school hours. Meaning all entrances and exits are locked and you can only gain entry through the front door after being buzzed in by someone in the main office

#99 KingBroly   CAG Club Nintendo CAGiversary!   15248 Posts   Joined 8.2 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:34 AM

So, is mike suggesting that we do now is what the Federal Government "encouraged" movie and television shows to do in the 40's and 50's when it came to showing the Nazis losing? I.E. "encourage" these shows and movies to not show/use guns?
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#100 Temporaryscars   Talks like a Dalek CAGiversary!   23339 Posts   Joined 9.8 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:38 AM

I think the bigger problem is how we treat mental illness in this country. You don't go to bed a normal human being and then wake up one morning with the urge to go on a killing spree on a school. People must have known that he wasn't right leading up to this event. If these people could get the medical help they need, a lot of this could be avoided.

Mag/Gun restrictions are simply a band-aid and don't get at the heart of the issue, which deals with mental illness, the uselessness of "gun free" zones and, as others have posted before me, a cultural mentality towards violence. For a developed nation, we are a violent one.



#101 h3llbring3r   Mecha Cocksmas 2 all CAGiversary!   8991 Posts   Joined 8.2 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:59 AM

I think the bigger problem is how we treat mental illness in this country. You don't go to bed a normal human being and then wake up one morning with the urge to go on a killing spree on a school. People must have known that he wasn't right leading up to this event. If these people could get the medical help they need, a lot of this could be avoided.

Mag/Gun restrictions are simply a band-aid and don't get at the heart of the issue, which deals with mental illness, the uselessness of "gun free" zones and, as others have posted before me, a cultural mentality towards violence. For a developed nation, we are a violent one.


Totally agree RE: mental health and mag capacity bans a "band-aid" at best and more likely, IMHO, counter productive. Inanimate objects are easier to demonize and legislate than society and its abstract ills as a whole.

And as Mykevermin so delicately implied regarding the concentration of mundane shootings in "certain parts" of the country (legitimate stereotype noted) Southerners (myself included) have to deal with our "culture of violence" *ignores groans* where violence is hideously tolerated and socially much more acceptable- dating back to our application and, still engrained, acceptance of the Code Duello / Gov' JL Wilson's code of honor. It wasn't that long ago (perhaps I am dating myself in my late 80's childhood) that catching a spouse in flagrante delicto was an accepted reason for justifiable homicide &/or jury nullification. *cringes*

Edited by h3llbring3r, 15 December 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#102 skiizim   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8464 Posts   Joined 6.6 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:07 AM

Actually, legislation to ensure that they were properly secured whether by trigger locks or by safe would've gone a long way in preventing this type of tragedy along with the proper resources given to recognize and treat mental illnesses. It might be easier to secure guns than to treat mental illness, but we need to do both.

Either way, I'd still love to see your explanation as to how guns become "illegal."


I was actually going to post something along these lines, maybe even take it a step further and I know a bit far fetched but mandatory psyche evaluations before the purchase of a gun.

And how on Earth do you enforce legislation like that? Random home inspections? It's one thing when a measure sounds nice on paper but quite another to have it actually yield pragmatic results.



Eh, I guess you're referring to comments I made several hours ago? I wasn't ducking an answer I simply got up and did something else instead of monitor this thread. How do guns become 'illegal?' You realize there are no shortage of guns that are manufactured outside of the United States, right? So, yes, there's a fairly large black market of unregistered guns flowing into this country.


Yes, it would be hard to enforce but through registration and stiff penalties it can be done. How hard would it be to make everybody buy, register some kind of gun safe or lock to ensure somebody doesn't steal your guns or even take your gun to commit heinous crimes like this.

#103 Temporaryscars   Talks like a Dalek CAGiversary!   23339 Posts   Joined 9.8 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:11 AM

Requiring a safe isn't the worst idea I've ever heard, but do people really want to fiddle with locks and combinations when somebody breaks into their house? I keep all my guns in a safe, but I keep one shitty shotgun out loaded with birdshot. The whole thing reminds me of this.




#104 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36392 Posts   Joined 10.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:19 AM

If the legislation regarding "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines" that was attempted to be included the last cyber security bill is to be the bench mark or foreshadow what is to come, possession would be limited exclusively to current owners with destruction/confiscation following their death. There would be no sale of what you own allowed and no transfer of the prescribed arms period.



Enter the limited capacity magazine fallacy. The irony is that a person who can quickly and effectively swap out a ten round magazine is more dangerous the someone wielding a weapon with a cheap high capacity magazine. It takes very little practice to learn to do so. Recent events being the best evidence- what part of his gun caused the jam allowing Loughner to be subdued? His 33 round pistol magazine according to witnesses.

What failed in James Holmes theater shooting causing him to flee?
What jammed in Jacob Roberts' rifle in the mall shooting?

As even the most novice gun owner can testify to it takes much longer to clear a jam than swap a mag.

Sickeningly, I'd rather these people equip themselves thusly than learn how to use something that is in reality far more formidable.


A "single fire" pump action shotgun with an eight round tube- every model of which can be reloaded while firing- pumping out buckshot is far more of a real threat than some attention seeking seeking mental case with a drum fed AR-15. It just lacks the allure and pop-culture draw of the weapons these guys gravitate towards.

While superficially it might seem like a good idea, hobbling "magazine capacity," is more feel good- take that NRA- nonsense than impactful legislation.


Are you arguing that, if he had smaller-capacity magazines, James Holmes would have killed *more* people in that theatre in Aurora?

Or is your critique distillable down to "people who are trained are more dangerous than those who are untrained," which is a pretty remarkable moving of the goalposts?

For critics who question advocates concern over the incremental creep of gun control, those who have followed the issue for a long time have watched the slippery slope in action in other Western societies that once had liberal gun ownership rights- oftentimes following highly publicized tragedies. Competitive and hobbiest pistol shooters in the UK are well versed in the "registration leads to confiscation" cliche and whether or not it's true. Aussie gun owners watched even "sporting use" (cringes at the inevitable & irrelevant concept vis-à-vis our 2nd amendment) weapons become prohibited. Mr LaPierres often asinine statements aside, it's hardly a mind-Fuck.


UK? Australia? You bring up a very good point - we certainly wouldn't want gun-related fatalities in the US to reach *those* levels, now, would we? ;)
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#105 Temporaryscars   Talks like a Dalek CAGiversary!   23339 Posts   Joined 9.8 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:20 AM

But at what cost? Those countries are practically police states at this point.



#106 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36392 Posts   Joined 10.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:21 AM

^ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: police state? welcome, Libertarian endgame hyperbole. It took over 100 posts to get there, y'all are getting slow in your age.

Let's talk about per capita incarceration rates and then we'll see who the police states are. :rofl:

(legitimate stereotype noted)


there's no stereotype, it's data. murders are significantly far more likely to happen in metropolitan areas than in rural/suburban areas. any stereotype you read into it beyond the urban/rural divide is of your own manufacture. and if that stereotype is what I think it is, you can drag your knuckles back to the stormfront forums and leave us alone here.
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#107 Temporaryscars   Talks like a Dalek CAGiversary!   23339 Posts   Joined 9.8 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:25 AM

^ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: police state? welcome, Libertarian endgame hyperbole. It took over 100 posts to get there, y'all are getting slow in your age.

Let's talk about per capita incarceration rates and then we'll see who the police states are. :rofl:


Did I ever say we weren't also a police state? Why did you change the subject so quickly?

Go to the UK and see how long you can go without have a camera pointed at you. Look on youtube at what happens in the UK when anyone stands up to police authority. Australia is the same way, but they have even tighter controls over what their peasants get to watch or listen to.



#108 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36392 Posts   Joined 10.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:28 AM

You brought up police states, my friend. Not me.

As for police states, the examples you bring up are unrelated to gun ownership - so, tying this back to the original topic (something you did not attempt to do, as you're rambling about cameras and video censorship or somesuch), what exactly does any of this have to do with gun control (or the lack thereof)?
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#109 Temporaryscars   Talks like a Dalek CAGiversary!   23339 Posts   Joined 9.8 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:29 AM

What I took from your earlier post was "statism works for them, we should be more like that!" I'm telling you that it's not all peaches and cream over there.

You're right though, I'm going off topic.



#110 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9183 Posts   Joined 4.5 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:37 AM

What I took from your earlier post was "statism works for them, we should be more like that!" I'm telling you that it's not all peaches and cream over there.

You're right though, I'm going off topic.


Doesn't help that the demographics in the U.K. Australia and Switzerland are a quite different from that in the U.S.

#111 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36392 Posts   Joined 10.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:37 AM

What I took from your earlier post was "statism works for them, we should be more like that!" I'm telling you that it's not all peaches and cream over there.


Oh, that's good to know. I thought they were both straight up utopias, and we were really missing out. They were superior on every level, and have no problems whatsoever.

:roll:

get fuckin' real, dude. that's like a straw man wrapped and prepared with words you put in my mouth, braised in a reducto ad absurdum. christ.

Looking solely at firearm-related fatalities across those three first world nations, it takes a special brand of ideologue to continue to embrace the US approach to gun ownership (and by that - take a breath, please - I mean the utter refusal, the fingers-in-the-ears-and-shouting-NONONONONONONO approach to discussing any sort of gun control).

To people like you, it's unfettered 2nd Amendment all-the-arms-you-want-all-the-time* or it's "statist gun grab." Black and white, 0 and 1. Your refusal to see shades of grey, of the possibility for any negotiation or mature discussion of gun control whatsoever, contributes to the problem in ways that, if you ever admit it to yourself, you will never forgive yourself.

*(the asterisk is because you actually don't believe in the 2nd Amendment. Nobody does.)
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#112 Temporaryscars   Talks like a Dalek CAGiversary!   23339 Posts   Joined 9.8 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:43 AM

And as hb pointed out, that grey area that you're talking about historically leads to black. Or white. Whichever end you're talking about.

I see you're still pumping that "nobody believes in the 2nd." I quite liked my answer to you about nukes.



#113 skiizim   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8464 Posts   Joined 6.6 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:47 AM

Oh, that's good to know. I thought they were both straight up utopias, and we were really missing out. They were superior on every level, and have no problems whatsoever.

:roll:

get fuckin' real, dude. that's like a straw man wrapped and prepared with words you put in my mouth, braised in a reducto ad absurdum. christ.

Looking solely at firearm-related fatalities across those three first world nations, it takes a special brand of ideologue to continue to embrace the US approach to gun ownership (and by that - take a breath, please - I mean the utter refusal, the fingers-in-the-ears-and-shouting-NONONONONONONO approach to discussing any sort of gun control).

To people like you, it's unfettered 2nd Amendment all-the-arms-you-want-all-the-time* or it's "statist gun grab." Black and white, 0 and 1. Your refusal to see shades of grey, of the possibility for any negotiation or mature discussion of gun control whatsoever, contributes to the problem in ways that, if you ever admit it to yourself, you will never forgive yourself.

*(the asterisk is because you actually don't believe in the 2nd Amendment. Nobody does.)


This is what I think is so obtuse of Conservatives, I think it's so far easier for a Liberal to have more of a conservative view than it is for a Conservative to be more liberal.

#114 Temporaryscars   Talks like a Dalek CAGiversary!   23339 Posts   Joined 9.8 Years Ago  

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:49 AM

Except he's wrong about my position, as I've never advocated for unfettered access to guns. I get NICS'd all the time and have no issue with it.



#115 h3llbring3r   Mecha Cocksmas 2 all CAGiversary!   8991 Posts   Joined 8.2 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:01 AM

Are you arguing that, if he had smaller-capacity magazines, James Holmes would have killed *more* people in that theatre in Aurora?

Or is your critique distillable down to "people who are trained are more dangerous than those who are untrained," which is a pretty remarkable moving of the goalposts?



UK? Australia? You bring up a very good point - we certainly wouldn't want gun-related fatalities in the US to reach *those* levels, now


A. Yes. No one's moving goalposts.

B. How were their numbers before the racheting up of restrictions in comparison to now? How were their numbers before in relation to ours.

Ends ands means, ands freedoms. . . do we just get rhetorical from here on out?


there's no stereotype, it's data. murders are significantly far more likely to happen in metropolitan areas than in rural/suburban areas. any stereotype you read into it beyond the urban/rural divide is of your own manufacture. and if that stereotype is what I think it is, you can drag your knuckles back to the stormfront forums and leave us alone here.

It was meant to be tongue in cheek hence the "legitimate."

Stormfront forums? Please, not a regular there however their posts seem more well thought out and poignant than most of what I am reading in here, present company excluded of course. ;) VS is the basest knuckle dragging territory on CAG. Let's have an ad hominem party!!! The foul breath of liberal mouth breathers is choking me!

Save me Diocletian king! Save me gubment, the second age of Kali Yuga is here but it's the repuglicans and their ilk who ushered it in.

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#116 spmahn  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:06 AM

So how exactly would gun control prevent tragedies like this from occurring? If someone wants to do something like this, they'll find a way. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's inaccessible, ie: Drugs. Gun control is just a red herring in a situation such as this, the bigger issue is how we identify and treat mental and psychological issues, but even that won't solve the problem because all too often we find out that these people lived their lives otherwise normally, but had deep troubles bottled up inside and just snapped one day.

#117 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36392 Posts   Joined 10.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:19 AM

And as hb pointed out, that grey area that you're talking about historically leads to black. Or white. Whichever end you're talking about.


Historically = two case studies?

What about our maple-chugging friends to the north and their mandated registration?

I see you're still pumping that "nobody believes in the 2nd." I quite liked my answer to you about nukes.


I don't seem to recall what your response was. Remind me, please.
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#118 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36392 Posts   Joined 10.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:23 AM

A. Yes. No one's moving goalposts.


You answer an A or B question with "yes." Lovely. Good to know that's what I'm working with.
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#119 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6401 Posts   Joined 5.8 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:36 AM

A. Yes. No one's moving goalposts.

B. How were their numbers before the racheting up of restrictions in comparison to now? How were their numbers before in relation to ours.

Ends ands means, ands freedoms. . . do we just get rhetorical from here on out?

It was meant to be tongue in cheek hence the "legitimate."

Stormfront forums? Please, not a regular there however their posts seem more well thought out and poignant than most of what I am reading in here, present company excluded of course. ;) VS is the basest knuckle dragging territory on CAG. Let's have an ad hominem party!!! The foul breath of liberal mouth breathers is choking me!

Save me Diocletian king! Save me gubment, the second age of Kali Yuga is here but it's the repuglicans and their ilk who ushered it in.

SMH, even drunk vs seems weak at best.

What the motherfuck is this? This is Poe's Law right?

So how exactly would gun control prevent tragedies like this from occurring? If someone wants to do something like this, they'll find a way. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's inaccessible, ie: Drugs. Gun control is just a red herring in a situation such as this, the bigger issue is how we identify and treat mental and psychological issues, but even that won't solve the problem because all too often we find out that these people lived their lives otherwise normally, but had deep troubles bottled up inside and just snapped one day.

You might want to read the thread because it's been brought up numerous times that neither increased regulations and increased resources to better recognize/treat mental illness will 100% prevent all such events, but that it would reduce the overall likelyhood of them happening. What you're implying is that since they're both pretty much useless, why bother doing anything at all. There are always telltale signs and they don't just manifest out of the blue. Gun control is anything BUT a red herring when access to the guns is pretty relevant to what happened especially when they weren't his to begin with.

#120 h3llbring3r   Mecha Cocksmas 2 all CAGiversary!   8991 Posts   Joined 8.2 Years Ago  

Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:43 AM

Hahah sum body got it!