Platinum Coin - Discuss

I'd love to see the reactions from some people. Jay Carney squirmed out of answering whether they would rule it out as an option yesterday.
 
14th, section 4
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.
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I'm still trying to figure out how the "debt ceiling vote" is even constitutional. The debt is authorized by virtue of the law that was passed that incurred it. "It shall not be questioned."

So uh...

edit: Hell, even the freepers agree that if invoked it probably wouldn't even be heard by the Supreme Court.

if Obama invoked the Fourteenth Amendment to raise the debt ceiling unilaterally, the most likely outcome is that the Supreme Court would refuse to hear the case. The conservative justices have long required clear evidence of legal “standing” before opening the courthouse door—something they showed in their recent 5-4 decision rejecting a taxpayer’s challenge to an Arizona school vouchers program—and it’s hard to imagine who could establish enough of a legal injury to establish standing in this case.
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Even Heritage's opposition is total weak sauce:
At most, this clause might require the federal government to prioritize debt payments on existing debt, but no one doubts there is enough tax revenue to cover service on existing debt—without incurring more debt. Besides, the President’s unilateral action to add new debt in violation of a debt limit would not be “authorized by law” and so would be the opposite of what the clause requires.
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Shockingly, Republicans don't like executive branch departments. Who authorized the executive the power to have departments? Oh right. Congress. Neeeeeeeeeeext:
In addition, unilateral action by the President to take on additional debt would be a clear violation of the Constitution’s separation of powers. After all, the Constitution vests in Congress—and withholds from the Executive—the power to commit to spending, to raise revenue by enacting taxes, and to incur public debt. The Fourteenth Amendment did not alter this. Congressional control of borrowing, through the debt limit, and section four of the amendment are in unison, not tension.
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Really? The Solicitor General is going to have the 14th amendment in his hand and Congress's defense will be that it's a violation of the separation of powers... because the president is paying for what Congress has already authorized?

lolwut
 
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[quote name='soonersfan60']People that are for this don't understand economics.[/QUOTE]

Im ok with that, because this isn't about economics.
 
For it. Its marginally better than letting the terrorists Republicans sink the world economy.

Its purpose is not to deal with the debt. Its to deal with the concept of a debt ceiling, which by itself would not be a problem if it werent for Republicans.
 
If the roles were reversed and they voted for the face, I bet the majority of the Republican party would vote to put Jesus on the coin. Or Reagan. It'd be a close match.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Its purpose is not to deal with the debt.[/QUOTE]

Of course it's not. No one expects government of any flavor to actually deal with the debt.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Why? Explain like I don't know why it's a bad idea because I don't.[/QUOTE]

I think this is gonna be healthcare reform II - Electric Boogaloo.

They are against it but can't tell you why.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I think this is gonna be healthcare reform II - Electric Boogaloo.

They are against it but can't tell you why.[/QUOTE]

You not accepting what is wrong with this idea does not mean noone can tell you why.

You really think this wouldn't have adverse effects?
 
Is there a downside to denying nuclear launch codes to elementary school children?

Is there a downside to defusing any hostage situation?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Is there a downside to denying nuclear launch codes to elementary school children?[/QUOTE]

I don't get the reference in this one.



[quote name='msut77']

Is there a downside to defusing any hostage situation?[/quote]

If you take a blind shot at the hostage taker and maybe take him out. Sure you solved the problem, but noone will trust you to negotiate again. And you could very well hit a hostage instead.
 
It's making money out of thin air to pay for debt incurred from promising to make money out of thin air.

Think about that for a bit next time you toke one.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']It's making money out of thin air to pay for debt incurred from promising to make money out of thin air.

Think about that for a bit next time you toke one.[/QUOTE]

Just came in to 'splain but seems you summarized it quite well. It is absurd to make a coin and give it such a value just because they can. Government messes with the natural order and free market which resulted in the financial mess we are in.
 
You know, there is absolutely nothing wrong with printing money, the key is to print the right amount. It doesn't mean automatic inflation either, despite what the crackpots on the bullion forums may tell you. I swear those folks are going to be really disappointed when gold and silver return to a reasonable price.
 
Actually in this particular case, the inflation triggered would be zero. They could mint a $100 Trillion coin and deposit it at the Fed, the resulting inflation would be zero. If the government tries to spend it, that is to say, purchasing $10 trillion worth of goods or services, then would you have inflation. Until its spent, its something of an accounting gimmick. Its less a coin than a token. A token that authorizes the government to pay the debts it has already accumulated with money it already has. We dont have a problem servicing our debt. We've just created a fictional, legal barrier to doing so for no good reason.
 
[quote name='Clak']You know, there is absolutely nothing wrong with printing money, the key is to print the right amount. It doesn't mean automatic inflation either, despite what the crackpots on the bullion forums may tell you. I swear those folks are going to be really disappointed when gold and silver return to a reasonable price.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, except the right amount is no more. FED printed too much money which were given to the banks to loan out to people. This resulted in artificial low interest rates that led to the housing crisis. The government's solution? Print more money! Billions were again given to the banks to cover bonuses and private airplanes. Before calling those people crackpots I suggest you do more research. Gold and silver have increased in value exponentially over the last few decades. I myself have invested, not to profit but keep my money safe and secure. Remember Germany when they printed too much after the war?
 
[quote name='mrsilkunderwear']FED printed too much money which were given to the banks to loan out to people. This resulted in artificial low interest rates that led to the housing crisis.[/quote]

Where in the world did you get this whackadoo theory? CDOs, shameful (corrupt) ratings agencies, an addiction to ARMs for banks far beyond the purview of the Community Reinvestment Act - that led to the bubble and its explosion.

The government's solution? Print more money! Billions were again given to the banks to cover bonuses and private airplanes. Before calling those people crackpots I suggest you do more research.
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Let me guess; we're fifteen borrowed dollars away from HYPERINFLATION AND OMG THE CRASHING DOLLAR AND OMG MILK IS SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A GALLON AND OMG THE UNITED STATES IS THE NEW WEIMAR REPUBLIC.

Right? Is that what you think? Based on what empirical standards are we going down the same path as Germany? Can you find a single economist who thinks we're the next Germany?

(p.s., Good luck.)

Gold and silver have increased in value exponentially over the last few decades. I myself have invested, not to profit but keep my money safe and secure. Remember Germany when they printed too much after the war?
Click to expand...

Copper has increased in value as well, but that's due to its use as a metal more than it is fears of a crashing currency. Correlation is not causation - and in any event, self-fulfilling prophecies and all that would indicate that it only takes a small pool of crackpots to drive up the price of a commodity like precious metals. This isn't "smart people getting out of the dollar while the getting is good," this is "crazed loons have become the tail wagging the dog."
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Where in the world did you get this whackadoo theory? CDOs, shameful (corrupt) ratings agencies, an addiction to ARMs for banks far beyond the purview of the Community Reinvestment Act - that led to the bubble and its explosion.



Let me guess; we're fifteen borrowed dollars away from HYPERINFLATION AND OMG THE CRASHING DOLLAR AND OMG MILK IS SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A GALLON AND OMG THE UNITED STATES IS THE NEW WEIMAR REPUBLIC.

Right? Is that what you think? Based on what empirical standards are we going down the same path as Germany? Can you find a single economist who thinks we're the next Germany?

(p.s., Good luck.)



Copper has increased in value as well, but that's due to its use as a metal more than it is fears of a crashing currency. Correlation is not causation - and in any event, self-fulfilling prophecies and all that would indicate that it only takes a small pool of crackpots to drive up the price of a commodity like precious metals. This isn't "smart people getting out of the dollar while the getting is good," this is "crazed loons have become the tail wagging the dog."[/QUOTE]

1. Ron Paul predicted this early in 2000s.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul376.html
This could also be applied to student loans and price of education. Price of education has increased because government became involved by giving out loans and grants. Quick google search led me to this:
http://www.thepoliticalguide.com/Profiles/House/Texas/Ron_Paul/Views/Education/

2. 15 dollars from hyperinflation? So do you believe we are having an inflation right now? If so, why?

3. Price of copper is driven by free market. Here is a great 40 minute video I hope you watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3SOlXxUBLk&feature=youtu.be
Demand for gold rises as central banks diversify reserve holdings
http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2013-01/12/content_16107893.htm
Germany’s Bundesbank Repatriating Gold from the New York Federal Reserve
http://www.globalresearch.ca/german...old-from-the-new-york-federal-reserve/5319048
Another short video on gold by Peter Schiff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSGuYavJQqU&feature=youtu.be

Now let me ask you a few questions:
1. Do you believe in government involvement in economy? If so, how much involvement?
2. By printing so much money, does the dollar value decrease? Does the price of goods go up because of that?
3. Why did the price of gold and silver has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?
 
Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul are economists? Derrrrrrrp. fuck almighty.

[quote name='mrsilkunderwear']Now let me ask you a few questions:
1. Do you believe in government involvement in economy? If so, how much involvement?
2. By printing so much money, does the dollar value decrease? Does the price of goods go up because of that?
3. Why did the price of gold and silver has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?[/QUOTE]

1. Stupid question, ridiculous premise. Let me answer it this way - anyone who believes that a market can be truly independent of government involvement either (a) doesn't understand the first fucking thing about economics or (b) is an anarchist. If you use the US dollar in your transaction and typically refrain from bartering, there is a remarkable likelihood that you are an (a) and not (b).
2. Check the CPI. Printing money doesn't effect prices. You are clearly in category (a) above.
3. "Why did the price has increased?" Sweet grammar, guy. Are you a trust fund Archbishop Moeller grad? At any rate, I'm not sure why it has done up. Demand? Beats me, I don't invest in it.

Let me ask you: "Why did the price of AAPL has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?" Since you are fishing for a desired result in the final question, should we glean that any commodity/security whose price has increased since 1998 is a potential candidate for replacing the dollar as the currency of choice in the modern world? Should we then think that people are buying AAPL stock certificates expecting them to replace the dollar? No? Why would we expect that gold is different? Because its price as a commodity went up? Talk about a conclusion in search of evidence. Jesus, kid. Back to the drawing board with you.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul are economists? Derrrrrrrp. fuck almighty.



1. Stupid question, ridiculous premise. Let me answer it this way - anyone who believes that a market can be truly independent of government involvement either (a) doesn't understand the first fucking thing about economics or (b) is an anarchist. If you use the US dollar in your transaction and typically refrain from bartering, there is a remarkable likelihood that you are an (a) and not (b).
2. Check the CPI. Printing money doesn't effect prices. You are clearly in category (a) above.
3. "Why did the price has increased?" Sweet grammar, guy. Are you a trust fund Archbishop Moeller grad? At any rate, I'm not sure why it has done up. Demand? Beats me, I don't invest in it.

Let me ask you: "Why did the price of AAPL has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?" Since you are fishing for a desired result in the final question, should we glean that any commodity/security whose price has increased since 1998 is a potential candidate for replacing the dollar as the currency of choice in the modern world? Should we then think that people are buying AAPL stock certificates expecting them to replace the dollar? No? Why would we expect that gold is different? Because its price as a commodity went up? Talk about a conclusion in search of evidence. Jesus, kid. Back to the drawing board with you.[/QUOTE]
1. I studied Economics for several years in California being taught by different kinds of professors. Just because my view is different it does not mean that I am an anarchist or stupid. You use the same tactics by people who do not have the facts by calling me stupid, making fun of one's opinion and etc. This tactic is also used by Pierce Morgan against anyone who has a different opinion.
USSR had strong government influence on the market and what happened? They are gone!
Want another example? How about Sweden who was praised by a very famous economist Paul Krugman. http://mises.org/daily/2259
2. CPI? Ok check the link below
http://seekingalpha.com/article/122269-what-s-wrong-with-the-cpi
3. AAPL increased due to demand, for many people it was or is a solid substitute for paper money. Please enough with name calling and use more facts, none of your responses are back up by anything.

Also I am still waiting for my dollar.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']It's funny you bring up California.

http://news.yahoo.com/governor-brown-unveil-california-budget-141509838.html

free market durrrrrrrrr.[/QUOTE]

The tax on the rich would also result in huge amount of revenue but that would be a short term solution. In the long term, more jobs will be cut and prices will go up.

Now I can play this game as well:
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-co...how-conservative-policies-work-2-2558344.html
More insightful information.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100016697
http://www.thenewamerican.com/econo...ul-index-shows-californians-leaving-for-texas
 
[quote name='mrsilkunderwear']Now I can play this game as well:[/QUOTE]

That's the *only* thing you've actually done on this site thus far, to be honest. Ape tired Libertarian talking points and blogs.

Now that I've seen what kind of internet sources you use as "support," perhaps you should stick to the rhetoric after all.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's the *only* thing you've actually done on this site thus far, to be honest. Ape tired Libertarian talking points and blogs.

Now that I've seen what kind of internet sources you use as "support," perhaps you should stick to the rhetoric after all.[/QUOTE]

Actually I have been backing up all my words, you on the other hand quoted me with some article while poking fun of the free market. That is why I pointed you to Texas' surplus along with other information.

And I am sorry that you do not like my internet sources, I will try to use Yahoo since it is such a beacon of knowledge of all things finance.
 
I don't like your sources because it's libertarian thinktank horseshit. The Mises institute? Womp womp. You cited Ron Paul, big whoop. Ron Paul thinks the Fed and CRA are responsible for the housing bubble; Ron Paul thinks the Fed is also responsible for Enron. Seriously. He's a conviction (government bad) who engages in selective memory, cognitive dissonance, and absurd revisionism to support his viewpoint.

Anyone who blames the government for Enron has zero credibility. Well, unless you're an acolyte of his, in which case the more evidence there is against his inane worldview, the greater the evidence that there's a conspiracy to silence his brilliance. derp.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I don't like your sources because it's libertarian thinktank horseshit. The Mises institute? Womp womp. You cited Ron Paul, big whoop. Ron Paul thinks the Fed and CRA are responsible for the housing bubble; Ron Paul thinks the Fed is also responsible for Enron. Seriously. He's a conviction (government bad) who engages in selective memory, cognitive dissonance, and absurd revisionism to support his viewpoint.

Anyone who blames the government for Enron has zero credibility. Well, unless you're an acolyte of his, in which case the more evidence there is against his inane worldview, the greater the evidence that there's a conspiracy to silence his brilliance. derp.[/QUOTE]

It is unfortunate you resort to act like a child when I am trying to have a good, honest debate with you. I wish you would try and look at things from my perspective and not dismiss them outright. Hopefully other people on these forums will read the material I posted and analyze it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Where in the world did you get this whackadoo theory? CDOs, shameful (corrupt) ratings agencies, an addiction to ARMs for banks far beyond the purview of the Community Reinvestment Act - that led to the bubble and its explosion.



Let me guess; we're fifteen borrowed dollars away from HYPERINFLATION AND OMG THE CRASHING DOLLAR AND OMG MILK IS SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS A GALLON AND OMG THE UNITED STATES IS THE NEW WEIMAR REPUBLIC.

Right? Is that what you think? Based on what empirical standards are we going down the same path as Germany? Can you find a single economist who thinks we're the next Germany?

(p.s., Good luck.)



Copper has increased in value as well, but that's due to its use as a metal more than it is fears of a crashing currency. Correlation is not causation - and in any event, self-fulfilling prophecies and all that would indicate that it only takes a small pool of crackpots to drive up the price of a commodity like precious metals. This isn't "smart people getting out of the dollar while the getting is good," this is "crazed loons have become the tail wagging the dog."[/QUOTE]You want proof? go hang out near a coin dealer at a flea market. Everybody who walks by is an armchair economist ranting about inflation and how a silver quarter stills buys a gallon of gasoline (no, it doesn't).

I actually had some silver too, sold it when these loons started driving the price up like a rocket. Thanks loons! Now if only I had invested in gun manufacturer stocks.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Lew Rockwell and Ron Paul are economists? Derrrrrrrp. fuck almighty.



1. Stupid question, ridiculous premise. Let me answer it this way - anyone who believes that a market can be truly independent of government involvement either (a) doesn't understand the first fucking thing about economics or (b) is an anarchist. If you use the US dollar in your transaction and typically refrain from bartering, there is a remarkable likelihood that you are an (a) and not (b).
2. Check the CPI. Printing money doesn't effect prices. You are clearly in category (a) above.
3. "Why did the price has increased?" Sweet grammar, guy. Are you a trust fund Archbishop Moeller grad? At any rate, I'm not sure why it has done up. Demand? Beats me, I don't invest in it.

Let me ask you: "Why did the price of AAPL has increased so much in the last 10-15 years?" Since you are fishing for a desired result in the final question, should we glean that any commodity/security whose price has increased since 1998 is a potential candidate for replacing the dollar as the currency of choice in the modern world? Should we then think that people are buying AAPL stock certificates expecting them to replace the dollar? No? Why would we expect that gold is different? Because its price as a commodity went up? Talk about a conclusion in search of evidence. Jesus, kid. Back to the drawing board with you.[/QUOTE]
I can answer why the price of gold and silver have gone up, folks like him, that's why. That and Glen Beck shilling like no tomorrow, that helped too. Once the economy really picks up and things return to a fairly normal state, the prices will both come back down. Now is a great time to sell though, I actually wish people like him would get even more paranoid and really ratchet the price up to around $50 per ounce of silver like it was for a bit.
 
[quote name='Clak']You want proof? go hang out near a coin dealer at a flea market. Everybody who walks by is an armchair economist ranting about inflation and how a silver quarter stills buys a gallon of gasoline (no, it doesn't).

I actually had some silver too, sold it when these loons started driving the price up like a rocket. Thanks loons! Now if only I had invested in gun manufacturer stocks.[/QUOTE]

http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1932-1964-Silver-Washington-Quarter-Value.html
Current value= $5.67
Average price of gasoline in US= $3.303
 
[quote name='Clak']I can answer why the price of gold and silver have gone up, folks like him, that's why. That and Glen Beck shilling like no tomorrow, that helped too. Once the economy really picks up and things return to a fairly normal state, the prices will both come back down. Now is a great time to sell though, I actually wish people like him would get even more paranoid and really ratchet the price up to around $50 per ounce of silver like it was for a bit.[/QUOTE]

And when will the economy go back up? After Quantitative Easing 7? After the invasion of Iran? Price of gold has been holding and increasing way before the economic crisis. You call me paranoid but I am being a realist. My grandfather lost most of his wealth when USSR collapsed and those people did not think something like that could happen either. I don't know about you but I am pretty sure all those gold buyers are laughing their butts off all the way to the "bank".

Also please do not associate me with a tool like Glenn Beck.
 
^Can we associate you with another tool, Alex Jones?

How long have you been singing the song of hyperinflation?

I.e., how long ago did you begin thinking that we're going to be the next Germany?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']^Can we associate you with another tool, Alex Jones?

How long have you been singing the song of hyperinflation?

I.e., how long ago did you begin thinking that we're going to be the next Germany?[/QUOTE]

I prefer Ron Paul but I guess I could settle for Alex Jones. He at least believes in what he says (yells?). I am staying optimistic in regards to not seeing hyperinflation in this country but so far the government is making all the wrong moves. Do you remember what Germany did in order to pay for the war debt?

Are you supporting Obama in his economic policies?
 
How long. When did you start humming this particular tune? Don't backtrack - you linked to it, you're arguing for it, you're crying the "we're printing money and going to turn into Germany" song. You either believe it or you don't. Pick one.

Do I have to draw a goddamned map for you to understand the question?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']How long. When did you start humming this particular tune? Don't backtrack - you linked to it, you're arguing for it, you're crying the "we're printing money and going to turn into Germany" song. You either believe it or you don't. Pick one.

Do I have to draw a goddamned map for you to understand the question?[/QUOTE]

I suggest you start drawing that map because I never said we will become Germany. I mentioned them because they have completely devalued their currency, a point I hope we will never reach here.

Let me try to use an example you will comprehend. Starcraft 2 had a limited edition which were mostly sold out prior to launch. After the release the price plunged because hoarders flooded the market with all the extra copies they did not want. Today, there is still demand but less copies therefore you have to pay a premium to get one.

Now you tell me if you honestly believe that excess printing was not one of the reasons for Germany's economic hardship.
 
[quote name='mrsilkunderwear']I never said we will become Germany.[/QUOTE]

What you said:

[quote name='mrsilkunderwear']Yeah, except the right amount is no more. FED printed too much money which were given to the banks to loan out to people. This resulted in artificial low interest rates that led to the housing crisis. The government's solution? Print more money! Billions were again given to the banks to cover bonuses and private airplanes. Before calling those people crackpots I suggest you do more research. Gold and silver have increased in value exponentially over the last few decades. I myself have invested, not to profit but keep my money safe and secure. Remember Germany when they printed too much after the war?[/QUOTE]

So you're going to hedge here and say you didn't "say" outright that we're going to become Germany, and expect to be taken seriously? You're using the worst of semantics to backtrack on the lynchpin of your *entire* economic argument.

So, seriously, read the above quote of yours and tell me, please tell me, that you still aren't saying we're going to become Germany. Because if you still try to backtrack, off to the ignore list you go. Where you deserve to be with other horrible people who lack the dignity to say what they mean with conviction, and resort to the weakest, lamest, most pisspoor of semantic shifting to avoid ever actually having an opinion on something.

So, please, you're actually kind of a nuisance. Try telling me one more time that you never said or implied we're going to become Germany. Not Merkel's Germany, post-WWI Germany.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What you said:



So you're going to hedge here and say you didn't "say" outright that we're going to become Germany, and expect to be taken seriously? You're using the worst of semantics to backtrack on the lynchpin of your *entire* economic argument.

So, seriously, read the above quote of yours and tell me, please tell me, that you still aren't saying we're going to become Germany. Because if you still try to backtrack, off to the ignore list you go. Where you deserve to be with other horrible people who lack the dignity to say what they mean with conviction, and resort to the weakest, lamest, most pisspoor of semantic shifting to avoid ever actually having an opinion on something.

So, please, you're actually kind of a nuisance. Try telling me one more time that you never said or implied we're going to become Germany. Not Merkel's Germany, post-WWI Germany.[/QUOTE]
Put me on that list if you must, obviously you lack the facts to backup anything you say. I implied there is a possibility but never said we will because I strongly believe in the people of USA. I believe the nonsense will stop after more citizens are aware of the damage this government is inflicting upon the country. It does not have be a majority of the population but a select few with a desire for a real change. Anyways if this is end for you and I then goodbye and hopefully one day you will open your eyes like I have.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I can guarantee this clown has zero knowledge of post or pre war germany or the weimar republic.[/QUOTE]
Enlighten this clown on the economic policies of Weimar republic.
 
[quote name='mrsilkunderwear']Enlighten this clown on the economic policies of Weimar republic.[/QUOTE]

Be more specific please, you make references to it in the present tense. What exactly do you think makes it so relevant?
 
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