CAGcast #311: Down Down

CheapyD

CheapyD

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[preview][IMG-L=5838]15060[/IMG-L]The gang discusses the THQ auction, the latest Nintendo announcements, Ni no Kuni, EDF 2017 Vita, racism in Far Cry 3, and more!

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Intro/Outro: 311 Down - Yuck Mouth


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Sad to see THQ go. I'll have great memories of many of their Nickelodeon games like SpongeBob: Battle for Bikini Bottom on the GameCube.

Great show as always guys!
 
Do we perhaps put too much stock in the launch of a console? Console cycles are often described as marathons rather than sprints and to place much emphasis on the first 6-12 months of a console I believe seems to lead to inappropriate conclusions about that console's fate. Here are a few examples:

PS3 - horrible launch, games weren't there, prices were high etc. Worldwide on par with X-box for total sold.

Nintendo DS - terrible launch as well perhaps one of the greatest consoles released (imo) but it definitely has sold a lot.

X-box 360 - I think there are some launch goggles for this one because I think people forget there really wasn't many games at launch (Geometry wars and PGR) and the hardware had red ring for years. By all accounts the 360 was a highly successful product and I think paved the way for Microsoft to start building hardware themselves (Surface).

It goes on and on. (PSP, PS Vita, PS2 and Dreamcast)


I have some serious concerns for the next X-box for a few reasons.

#1: Exclusive content on their platform is becoming scarce. As much as Nintendo rehashes stuff, Microsoft is more guilty of it because they only have a very small handful of IP that they call their own. How many more Halo games can the market take? A bunch, but is that enough to sustain a platform given Steam and its incursion into the living room.

#2: X-box Live is overpriced. One of the greatest strengths is really being undercut by Sony/Valve with respect to the actual savings PSN+/Steam users are getting for the same game.

#3: Hardware hesitation. Just like there is now a rule of thumb in the internet to not buy the first gen of Nintendo products (GBA, DS, etc.) and Apple products because of inevitable iteration and significant improvement, the next X-box could be chilled by the fact that owners of X-boxes that have red ringed may have less enthusiasm until the hardware proves itself.

Honestly, I have serious doubts that the dedicated gaming console market is viable beyond 3 major players.
 
Count me as one of the three that liked your Sesame Street reference, Wombat.

Also, though I'm only part way through the CAGcast at this point, but how many times does Cheapy make a comment after Shipwreck just said the same thing? I heard two, but it sounded like Cheapy was "preoccupied" and not following the conversation.

Great show as always!
 
People looking into Far Cry 3 as being racist are looking too much into it. I'm Asian and I didn't find it racist at all. So it's a white guy who happened to be on an Asian island so of course you're killing Asian dudes. You kill white people too but people seem to forget that. Let's not forget that people said RE5 was racist cuz you're a white guy killing black people in AFRICA. But they forgot your partner is a black woman for some reason. I'm with Cheapy on this issue. It's not racist.
 
[quote name='visorman30']
X-box 360 - I think there are some launch goggles for this one because I think people forget there really wasn't many games at launch (Geometry wars and PGR) and the hardware had red ring for years. By all accounts the 360 was a highly successful product and I think paved the way for Microsoft to start building hardware themselves (Surface).[/quote]

Okay, all my responses are going to come off as if I'm an Xbox fanboy here, but this is how I honestly see the situation. The first year of the 360 was loaded with games. Call of Duty 2, Oblivion, Hit Man: Blood Money, Dead or Alive 4, Burnout Revenge, GRAW, Dead Rising, Condemned, Saints Row, F.E.A.R., Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Gears of War. There was never a lack of games for the console.

It goes on and on. (PSP, PS Vita, PS2 and Dreamcast)
Click to expand...

Dreamcast and PSP actually had very strong first year lineups.

I have some serious concerns for the next X-box for a few reasons.

#1: Exclusive content on their platform is becoming scarce. As much as Nintendo rehashes stuff, Microsoft is more guilty of it because they only have a very small handful of IP that they call their own. How many more Halo games can the market take? A bunch, but is that enough to sustain a platform given Steam and its incursion into the living room.
Click to expand...

Halo is huge. Having a small stable of really proven IPs has been a winning formula for Microsoft.

Steam has an unbelievably minimal impact on Halo's future.

#2: X-box Live is overpriced. One of the greatest strengths is really being undercut by Sony/Valve with respect to the actual savings PSN+/Steam users are getting for the same game.
Click to expand...

I don't think Xbox Live is overpriced. Do I like paying for it? Nope. But, look at their subscriber base and people voting with their wallet think the service is worth it.

#3: Hardware hesitation. Just like there is now a rule of thumb in the internet to not buy the first gen of Nintendo products (GBA, DS, etc.) and Apple products because of inevitable iteration and significant improvement, the next X-box could be chilled by the fact that owners of X-boxes that have red ringed may have less enthusiasm until the hardware proves itself.
Click to expand...

I don't think the Red Ring will have much effect on the next Xbox's sales at all. Microsoft replaced everyone's consoles and the models they've been selling for the past 5 years haven't had a bad failure rate. The majority of 360 owners at this point likely don't even know there was an issue.

Honestly, I have serious doubts that the dedicated gaming console market is viable beyond 3 major players.
Click to expand...

I agree, Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Okay, all my responses are going to come off as if I'm an Xbox fanboy here, but this is how I honestly see the situation. The first year of the 360 was loaded with games. Call of Duty 2, Oblivion, Hit Man: Blood Money, Dead or Alive 4, Burnout Revenge, GRAW, Dead Rising, Condemned, Saints Row, F.E.A.R., Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Gears of War. There was never a lack of games for the console.[/QUOTE]

How many of those games were 360 exclusives (besides Gears)? I can't remember and I'm curious. As the only next gen system out that year, I wonder how much the 360 benefited from straddling generations, getting better versions of games that were being made to satisfy a huge PS2 install base. It didn't hurt, either, that 360 development/porting was a breeze compared to PS3 for a loooong time.

Given that both the next Xbox and PS4 are (supposedly) going to be built from more standard PC parts, I don't expect that kind of multiplatform disparity. I see the Xbox getting a carryover bump from current gen perceptions, but unless they put a lot of money into exclusive content, the playing field for Microsoft and Sony should be more even this time around.

Can't wait to see what Xbox Live and PS Plus look like in 18 months.
 
Cheapy cries from a game every few weeks, but when Wombat says a game makes him uncomfortable, Cheapy says "it's just a game." :)
 
Just as some reference for everyone about the Defiance discussion, here's the Defiance YouTube channel. Videos about the show, the game, and how they'll tie in to each other.

The Red Faction Syfy movie was just a prequel to the game. Defiance is planning that what goes on in the show will be reflected in the game and in some small ways what gamers do will show up in the show. I dismissed it at first too but the show previews look good. Real good. My biggest question is the game, which kind of looks like Borderlands but I wonder how it'll play.
 
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Good job belittling me for saying Shipwreck twice instead of acknowledging the show wasn't that great without him. It's not even that he wasn't there. It's the fact that the ratio of Wombat to interesting/competent hosts was off.
 
Rescue Rangers beats Duck Tales & Talespin. Besides Donald's quack attack, I know he wasn't on Duck Tales, Monterey Jack's mustache-twist & addict-like trance kept the fans in their seats! Lol, seriously though, play the song so I can sing it w/my morning coffee.
 
[quote name='Lightning War']Good job belittling me for saying Shipwreck twice instead of acknowledging the show wasn't that great without him. It's not even that he wasn't there. It's the fact that the ratio of Wombat to interesting/competent hosts was off.[/QUOTE]

You deserved that and more for acting like the show shouldn't happen if Shipwreck can't be there. Cheapy/Wombat shows were fine in the past, and they are still fine now. If you can't stand CAGcasts without Shipwreck on them then don't fucking listen to them.
 
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[quote name='Curufinwe']You deserved that and more for acting like the show shouldn't happen if Shipwreck can't be there. Cheapy/Wombat shows were fine in the past, and they are still fine now. If you can't stand CAGcasts without Shipwreck on them then don't fucking listen to them.[/QUOTE]

But now Cheapy and Wombat aren't gamers, they're parents. It's wierd having a game podcast where only 1/3 of the hosts actually play very many games. It's kinda terrible having one with no gaming hosts.
 
[quote name='deathmothon']But now Cheapy and Wombat aren't gamers, they're parents. It's wierd having a game podcast where only 1/3 of the hosts actually play very many games. It's kinda terrible having one with no gaming hosts.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Wombat and Cheapy always seem to get off track without Shipwreck to remind them it's a video game podcast. I don't mind listening to other stuff but the quality definitely drops without Shipwreck.
 
[quote name='deathmothon']But now Cheapy and Wombat aren't gamers, they're parents. It's wierd having a game podcast where only 1/3 of the hosts actually play very many games. It's kinda terrible having one with no gaming hosts.[/QUOTE]
I completely disagree, but I am a father who plays games w/ his 3 kids who are under the age of 6 so maybe I am a little biased when I say that the perspectives of Cheapy & Wombat have more interesting layers & have a broader range when considering which games to play &/or talk about. I played Condemned in a creepy basement alone in the dark as well as danced w/ my kids in Nickelodeon Dance. I try & weigh the merits of potential purchases for games in all genres more frequently & more selective due to less personal gaming time. Maybe you need a more concentrated array of multiple games but I listen to the podcast because of the natural flow of the stream rather than a manufactured reservoir of nodes filled w/ demands & absolute expectations. By no means am I comparing Shipwreck's value, because I am new to the podcast & today's was good; however, I do appreciate the contributions of CheapyD & Wombat w/ or w/out. Just my opinion man.
 
[quote name='easper']How many of those games were 360 exclusives (besides Gears)?
[/QUOTE]

Believe it or not, almost all of them. Splinter Cell was the only one that came out the same day for PS3.

Oblivion and FEAR made it to PS3 but a year after the 360.

Every other game in Shipwreck's very long list never came to PS3.


Personally I think MS will have a greater focus on 1st party/3rd party exclusive games at the start of the launch cycle. They had a strong focus on them for the 360's launch.

Hopefully they are not all Kinect 2.0 focused games.

Guess we'll find out in the next 4 months or so.
 
Enjoyed this episode as always. Are you guys going to talk what you want from next gen at some point in next month or so?

Also I would love impressions of the demos of new titles that are slowly coming out, e.g. Metal Gear, Dead Space 3, God of War Ascension....
 
Just hit the part in the 'cast where the racism/FC3 topic came up.

Isn't this pretty much the same thing that was rehashed when Resident Evil 5 came out?

What are the devs supposed to do, replace the natives with white people? Wouldn't the same people getting upset over shooting the natives also get upset if they weren't given any representation in the game?
 
CheapyD is so Narcissistic ... Wombat says he thinks part of the game is kinda of racist and CheapyD says don't worry it won't effect how i feel about you :roll:
 
WRONG! (about Nintendo) You fellows have been drinking too much of the brown liquors with Micheal Pachter.

PS love the show!:applause:
 
[quote name='ZombieJeebus']Believe it or not, almost all of them. Splinter Cell was the only one that came out the same day for PS3.

Oblivion and FEAR made it to PS3 but a year after the 360.

Every other game in Shipwreck's very long list never came to PS3.[/QUOTE]

The answer probably doesn't change, but when I said "exclusive" I meant not on the PS2 (or PC, I guess). I just wonder how much of the 360's early success was a factor of it being the next big system, how much was its PC-compatible architecture, and how much was it riding the coattails of development for games also being made for the PS2.

NONE of which takes away from the things Microsoft did right at the start of this gen.
 
@CheapyD You said a while back there was going to be a new CAG Website design any news on that?
 
[quote name='easper']The answer probably doesn't change, but when I said "exclusive" I meant not on the PS2 (or PC, I guess). I just wonder how much of the 360's early success was a factor of it being the next big system, how much was its PC-compatible architecture, and how much was it riding the coattails of development for games also being made for the PS2.

NONE of which takes away from the things Microsoft did right at the start of this gen.[/QUOTE]

Getting a year headstart was HUGE for the 360.

Having PS4/720 coming out around the same time (an assumption, but most people believe it to be true), means both companies having to focus more on exclusive games to try to force a decision for people that can't afford both systems.

MS did have a bigger focus on exclusives the first year or two. Most of them didn't stick though. Kameo, Perfect Dark, Too Human...they also had quite a few during the life cycle of the OG xbox.
 
The thing with the 360 launch is it was there first. It was the first "next gen" system out there, and the games looked pretty good at the time. Yes a lot of the games were on PC, but getting Oblivion, Fear and GRAW on the 360 was a blessing. If Sony can proove that this time around ports are easy and they have the same audience then less and less games will be console exclusives. MS is most likely going to invest in Kinect only titles and the few first party titles they have.

IMHO I rather have Gears, Halo, Forza and a few highly accaimed exclusives over a dozen so-so exclusive title or nothing at all. I think what MS will fail to do is get anyone who is a primary PC player to buy a 360 since so many games will be on the PC anyways. But looking at exclusive lists the PC always wins.

For the love of God please do not call the Wii U next gen either ;) Not when graphics are just on par with the 360.
 
[quote name='ShinAkumA21']CheapyD is so Narcissistic ... Wombat says he thinks part of the game is kinda of racist and CheapyD says don't worry it won't effect how i feel about you :roll:[/QUOTE]

That bit gave me a good laugh.



The Nintendo announcements were pretty good if you're interested in JRPGs. I'm not surprised most of you seemed indifferent to the SMT x Fire Emblem and Xenoblade successor.
 
I feel like saying that the sparse (and terrible) story in Far Cry 3 is it's strength only applies to it's potential for mass appeal. Having a story that's not annoying enough to stop you from playing only means that it wasn't good enough to keep you playing and only the sandbox world is the fun bit. I love good game play, but solid mechanics alone aren't enough to keep me coming back to these titles. I'd rather have an interesting story to come back to and enjoy time and again instead of exploring a virtual lab experimenting in chaos (albeit fun).
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Okay, all my responses are going to come off as if I'm an Xbox fanboy here, but this is how I honestly see the situation. The first year of the 360 was loaded with games. Call of Duty 2, Oblivion, Hit Man: Blood Money, Dead or Alive 4, Burnout Revenge, GRAW, Dead Rising, Condemned, Saints Row, F.E.A.R., Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Gears of War. There was never a lack of games for the console.

.[/QUOTE]

Good call, you are.

Listing Splinter Cell: Double Agent indicates how much you are reaching to defend the 360. What, did you forget GUN?

The Cagcast is officially useless for to the multi-console owning OPEN MINDED gamer.
 
[quote name='usickenme']Good call, you are.

Listing Splinter Cell: Double Agent indicates how much you are reaching to defend the 360. What, did you forget GUN?

The Cagcast is officially useless for to the multi-console owning OPEN MINDED gamer.[/QUOTE]

You can remove Splinter Cell if you don't like it. Makes no difference to me. The list is strong. I could have thought of more if I wasn't busy talking about and playing Ni no Kuni and Earth Defense Force 2017 Portable.
 
Tale Spin is great, much more easygoing vibe than Duck Tales. It is a solid #2 behind Duck Tales for me from that Disney cartoon era. Both shows hold up well to rewatching as an adult, Tale Spin slightly more so.

"Uncomfortable in hindsight" would be code for someone putting in idea in your head that may (or may not) actually be a thing. If it actually was a problem, you would of felt it in the course of playing the game instead of afteward. Like those artsy people who see the craziest, far-fetched, parallels in certain films. Would you have felt better about murdering scores of Asian people if your character were Asian? Why is that?? This circles back to that whole Resident Evil 5 controversy nonsense. You are a white guy killing black zombies not because you are racist, but because you're in Africa where there are typically a lot of individuals of African descent. Similarly, if you crash land on an island in SOUTHEAST ASIA you are probably going to be killing a lot of Asian people.

Also if you were a resident of the island instead of a crash survivor (per your suggestion) you would have a well established base of operations, supplies, a support structure, and know the layout of the island backwards and forwards which would hamper the feeling of exploration.

I also assume Defiance will be terrible, it's SyFy, they haven't made a show I enjoy in years; and typically whenever games, films, or television shows try to mash-up, one or all aspects of it are terrible.
 
[quote name='shipwreck']Okay, all my responses are going to come off as if I'm an Xbox fanboy here, but this is how I honestly see the situation. The first year of the 360 was loaded with games. Call of Duty 2, Oblivion, Hit Man: Blood Money, Dead or Alive 4, Burnout Revenge, GRAW, Dead Rising, Condemned, Saints Row, F.E.A.R., Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Gears of War. There was never a lack of games for the console.[/QUOTE]
I think you could actually add a little to that list. I really enjoyed Kameo and Tomb Raider Legend, and I know people will roll their eyes, but Perfect Dark Zero was something you could have had a lot of fun with if you could get past the initial horrible first impression. And then you factor in the rest of XBLA...I mean, EVERYONE was playing a little Uno that summer.

[quote name='easper']How many of those games were 360 exclusives (besides Gears)?[/QUOTE]
A lot were, but I really don't think this matters. When there was only one HD system, the available SD options were completely irrelevant to me.

[quote name='ZombieJeebus']Believe it or not, almost all of them. Splinter Cell was the only one that came out the same day for PS3.[/QUOTE]
Splinter Cell came out in October 2006 on 360 and the PS3 didn't launch until November, so this can't be right.

[quote name='usickenme']Listing Splinter Cell: Double Agent indicates how much you are reaching to defend the 360. What, did you forget GUN?[/QUOTE]
Splinter Cell Double Agent wasn't the best in the series but it was still a good game. I remember enjoying the mix of standard levels and the terrorist hideout sequences. And crapping on Gun? It was just a slightly touched up PS2 game, but a lot of people really liked that game.

[quote name='usickenme']The Cagcast is officially useless for to the multi-console owning OPEN MINDED gamer.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say useless, but it definitely does feel like certain platforms have been written off. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that Cheapy bought a 3DS at launch and played a few minutes of Nintendogs and then never bothered with the console ever again.
 
[quote name='trent82']
Splinter Cell came out in October 2006 on 360 and the PS3 didn't launch until November, so this can't be right.
[/QUOTE]

I only checked Ship's list of games against Wikipedia in my previous post. It says they were the same date. I was as surprised as you.
 
[quote name='trent82']I think you could actually add a little to that list. I really enjoyed Kameo and Tomb Raider Legend, and I know people will roll their eyes, but Perfect Dark Zero was something you could have had a lot of fun with if you could get past the initial horrible first impression. [/QUOTE]

Oh man, Perfect Dark Zero! I had a TON of fun with that game. Forgot all about it. I tried to go back and play it a year or two ago and I don't know how I managed to play it. It was great at the time though.

Another great show, guys. Started the laughter early at the 'down down' comments.
 
[quote name='Lightning War']Exactly. Wombat and Cheapy always seem to get off track without Shipwreck to remind them it's a video game podcast. I don't mind listening to other stuff but the quality definitely drops without Shipwreck.[/QUOTE]

I enjoy the non-gaming parts as much as the gaming talk. It's the same reason I love the Bombcast also. If I want gaming details, there's plenty of sites and info to access elsewhere. Wombat and CheapyD both contribute unique info, while Shipwreck definitely leads in the gaming department.
 
Thanks for the mention! Beggars can't be choosers, but I pronounce my handle "E-N-oid"

---

Launch lineups are always rough. Companies don't want to finalize hardware 2 years before the launch because it will be too outdated at launch. And studios need at least 2 years to put together quality titles, especially on a new platform.

You have to respect Nintendo for putting quality over planned release dates like the launch window. Protecting their franchises could be their downfall- or is it their strength in the long term?

---

Lest we forget, when a company buys a studio and property (license) from the THQ crash and burn, they are also buying the liabilities of that studio. That is, rent, salaries and benefits. A good studio purchase will be to cull talent as well as the license.

---

Great show! It was a fine show without Shipwreck (CAGcast retro), but it's great to have the voice of reason return!
 
I strongly dislike fake manufactured outrage. So suddenly all it takes is one article, one article from some schmuck about rasism in Fry Cry and people suddenly get outraged at other people's behest because in some fucked up universe it could possibly be construed as racist. What an over sensitized culture this is.


Great show though.
 
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Cheapy was on his humor game this episode. Dropping the Human Centipede reference was just do damn funny
 
Show Notes

2:45 Show feedback
10:30 Ship's most anticipated game of 2013: Tomb Raider
13:00 Watch This: Searching for Sugarman
16:00 Superman vs The Elite
16:45 New Releases
16:45 Ni No Kun:Wrath of the White Witch
20:45 The Cave
22:15 Deer Drive Legends
23:00 Strike Suit Zero
23:30 Another Naughty Bear game
24:15 PSN sale
28:45 THQ auction
39:45 Atari bankruptcy
42:30 Farcry 3 / racism
48:00 NHL Gamecenter (360)
51:30 Earth Defense Force (vita)
54:30 Nintedo Direct streaming conference, HD remake extravaganza
1:07:30 Cagbag
1:07:30 Game price increases?
1:08:15 Dead Space 3 microtransactions
1:12:45 Neo Geo X production stopped
1:14:00 Gamefly impressions & Ship's awol reviews
1:17:30 Defiance


The WiiU price drop predictions need to be added to the Top Analyst predictions

Wombat is spot-on about Shin Megami, its a game with a solid fanbase & will be highly anticipated by many.
 
Originally I didn't care for Shipwreck on the show, but after a week without him, its great to have him back.

I think you guys should look into some freelancers for reviews coverage. ;);) I guess it depends on how much traffic it really gives you though.

Can we assume Shipwreck's review of Ni No Kuni will be significantly better than the Polygon score?
 
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