Do we respect our veterans too much?

berzirk

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I posted something to Facebook that I thought would really irritate a handful of friends, effectively saying I'm tired of veterans and active-duty military being treated like superheroes, or reading stories about them pounding their chests and screaming "I'm a veteran!" anytime they don't think they're being treated better than everyone else. Well, to my surprise, a few of my veteran friends started to agree, and take my argument even further.

What got me going was this blog that people were commenting on:
http://www.adventuresofabrokensoldier.com/1/post/2013/04/wed-apr-3-2013.html

Apparently our broken soldier thinks he should have freedom, but a private business shouldn't have freedom to refuse service to anyone they choose.

I've personally seen job opportunities get offered to vets ahead of non-military as a part of the job posting. Veterans preferred/Points added to applications of veterans, these kinds of things. This is for jobs where military service really wouldn't be a benefit, maybe a detraction.

My original post below:
This will REALLY piss off a few people-First let me say, I have blood relatives, grandparents, ANCESTORS who served in the military and either literally defended this country on American soil, or fought wars on foreign soil for just causes, but something that has gotten completely out of control is this notion that we should all worship a person, just because they're a veteran or active-duty.

With no draft, our veterans elected to enlist. To throw a fit that their customer service wasn't better than someone else's, or their coffee wasn't free, or they weren't treated better than everyone who didn't serve in the military, has gotten out of control. So respect and admire them, that's deserved, but treating them like they're better than the rest of us, is lunacy. Those who were drafted in years past are the ones who should have any entitlement to that level of respect, and I don't hear them outraged for not receiving constant praises or better treatment than the rest of us, and they were probably treated WORSE than any generation of veteran in America's history.

Are we deifying our soldiers, and letting vets and active-duty get a free pass to bitch about being treated like everyone else?
 
absolutely.

The are plenty of people who give up a lot for the greater good. And not every veteran is doing a selfless act.

also: people and their dumbass tattoos.
 
I don't think this is so much a thing that's limited to the military.

I see it often - "I'm X, how dare you Y?!?"

The thing about it is it's pretty ridiculous. It's like they're saying "Oh, you're not X, so it isn't a big deal if it happens to you. But this happened to ME and I'm special because I'm X."
 
People get the dumbest shit tattooed on their bodies.

edit- Oh and I give this one page before it devolves into a libertarian circle jerk about private business rights.
 
One of my best friends has been in the military for years, and many of my other friends also are or have been.

That said, I find this country's infatuation with its military disturbing. Putting soldiers and veterans on a pedestal above everyone else doesn't make sense to me. The super-patriots who go out of their way to shake the hands of servicemen and servicewoman, accompanied with the old "Thank you for your service," seem to me to be extremely disingenuous. I think it's less about sincere gratitude than it is about getting some sort of warm response in return, but maybe I'm being overly cynical. I've never actually asked my buddy what he thinks of that whole charade, but I get the vibe that he views being in the army as more of a typical job than as some glorious, divine duty.
 
It's a weird sense of entitlement and it's not just veterans. I've had cops claim they couldn't possibly be mistaken/straight out lying because they are cops. Senior citizens, anyone with a handicap/condition a lot of them seem to think basically because of some characteristic they are beyond reproach and deserve special treatment.
 
No i don't think so. They are sent to barbaric places having to endure some obscene things and risk their life on a daily basis sometimes.........all for their country.

So surely their country can do something for them? No? Is that such a ridiculous idea?

If you don't agree with the military, or wars or what not that's a whole different topic all together.
 
They sign up to become murders, they aren't drafted and then sent to barbaric places against their will. It is a choice they make to "risk their life" while taking someone else's life for "their country". It is no different than someone getting a job as a janitor and then complaining that they have to clean a nasty bathroom.

Their country does do something for them. It pays them, clothes them, feeds them, gives them shelter and gives them a pension. It is a ridiculous idea to think they deserve anything more than a civilian.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate soldiers or veterans, they are people too. They just place themselves in circumstances that I am just not ok with.
 
oh lord...

Can we differentiate between actual veterans, those who served overseas and suffered injuries and trauma whether it be physical, emotional or mental and those wandering the streets drunk in vintage camo or those that got the boot from Junior ROTC but think they are Sgt. Slaughter?

The answer to this question is "NO" we don't respect our veterans enough. Especially those that deserve respect because of how they have conducted themselves.

There are idiots in all demographics whether it be doctors, athletes, actors, models, or military personnel. But just because one jackass in a crew cut and boots thinks he deserves a break or a discount doesn't mean all military personal are "over appreciated".

Some of the people I admire the most in the world are former military. And in all the time I've spent with them they've never bragged about what they did or what they saw (it's my understanding that those who actually DID see or DID do things don't like talking about it); they've never gone out and said "I'm military" at a business in hopes or getting a discount or preferential treatment; and through their service they learned enough about respect NOT to act like a dickwad in the first place.

So if you have seen people, assuming they actually are involved with the military (and not just claiming they are because they own a gun and went to a week worth of boot camp), and they have acted like over entitled douchebags then understand that isn't indicative of how the majority of service men and women behave.

In my opinion the one class of American's that is under appreciated the most are the elderly service men and women--many of whom are dying alone as we speak, and those who are lucky have been placed in veteran's homes still but are still dying.

But then again you have the luxury of ranting and raving on a video game forum because they served their country.

If you want to rant and rave about over appreciation take up overpaid athletes, actors, models, and politicians.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']They sign up to become murders, they aren't drafted and then sent to barbaric places against their will. It is a choice they make to "risk their life" while taking someone else's life for "their country". It is no different than someone getting a job as a janitor and then complaining that they have to clean a nasty bathroom.

Their country does do something for them. It pays them, clothes them, feeds them, gives them shelter and gives them a pension. It is a ridiculous idea to think they deserve anything more than a civilian.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate soldiers or veterans, they are people too. They just place themselves in circumstances that I am just not ok with.[/QUOTE]

Yeah because the U.S. has never had a draft before...

and I suppose the world would be a better place had they "not placed themselves in circumstances you didn't agree with" 90 years ago and then again 70 years ago.

tool.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']They sign up to become murders, they aren't drafted and then sent to barbaric places against their will. It is a choice they make to "risk their life" while taking someone else's life for "their country". It is no different than someone getting a job as a janitor and then complaining that they have to clean a nasty bathroom.

Their country does do something for them. It pays them, clothes them, feeds them, gives them shelter and gives them a pension. It is a ridiculous idea to think they deserve anything more than a civilian.[/QUOTE]

Your comparison is stupid and not the same at all. They are defending the country that is their job. Military is mainly deterrent, and defense. To make light of what they suffer or endure is completely out of touch. Really it's selfish for people to take the view you do. Because it's not you there and you are not like them, you fail to even remotely consider their position, just belittle what they do in an attempt to undermine it so that you're on the same level.

Calling them murderers is again...... Just not right. Like i said if you disagree with wars that's not them deciding that. Their job is not to murder it is defense first and foremost. If politicians make mistakes it is not their fault.

These people put their body in harms way, they watch friends get hurt or worse, they endure some terrible conditions. Take dedicated hardcore training and whether you like it or not, they are doing it for their country most of the time. To not respect this or see a difference from a janitor is just mindless as im sure most janitors see a big difference.

Many end up with huge mental scars and really are a mess afterwards. Can i stand the odd moron who thinks he's better than everyone else because he spent 6 months in IRAQ? Of course...because for one of him there are 50 great people who went through so much and do not have the sense of entitlement he does.

Besides you act like they go place to place killing people. It is not like that at all. Often they are there to train, protect, uphold laws. They have to be extremely disciplined in hostile environments with provocation everywhere.

Just because they volunteer or choose it as a career does not mean people have an open platform to make light of what they do. Just consider spending a week doing what they do, if you did you'd probably have the same entitlement that some and only some of them do.
 
[quote name='GBAstar']Yeah because the U.S. has never had a draft before...

and I suppose the world would be a better place had they "not placed themselves in circumstances you didn't agree with" 90 years ago and then again 70 years ago.

tool.[/QUOTE]

It had to be done at that time. Germany was an aggressor, and the world had no other choice and a draft/mass sign up happened. You can't change the past, and I am thankful for my grandfathers and others service during that time.
 
Calling service men and women "murderers" and "over appreciated" = OKAY

Calling welfare recipients LAZY, over compensated = BAD (borderline racist)


And I must ask what do you think is the percentage of people that have served in the military that have actually killed someone?
 
[quote name='GBAstar']Calling service men and women "murderers" and "over appreciated" = OKAY

Calling welfare recipients LAZY, over compensated = BAD (borderline racist)

And I must ask what do you think is the percentage of people that have served in the military that have actually killed someone?[/QUOTE]
Fine with either of the first two sentences.

No clue. There are no statistics that I have ever seen on that.
 
michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif
 
[quote name='GBAstar']
But then again you have the luxury of ranting and raving on a video game forum because they served their country.

[/QUOTE]

I see this all the time and no. While this applies to a small percentage of the current vets, it's hard to argue that any modernish wars did this. Vietnam- No, Desert Storm- No, Iraq- No, Afghanistan- Debatable. Past wars have no doubt but the world is very different now. I'm not sure how having bases all over the worlds help me too.

Our freedoms are preserved by many things and the military is only a one.

And where was the military during the Patriot Act or SOPA discussions?
 
[quote name='usickenme']I see this all the time and no. While this applies to a small percentage of the current vets, it's hard to argue that any modernish wars did this. Vietnam- No, Desert Storm- No, Iraq- No, Afghanistan- Debatable. Past wars have no doubt but the world is very different now. I'm not sure how having bases all over the worlds help me too.

Our freedoms are preserved by many things and the military is only a one.

And where was the military during the Patriot Act or SOPA discussions?[/QUOTE]


When I write:

In my opinion the one class of American's that is under appreciated the most are the elderly service men and women--many of whom are dying alone as we speak, and those who are lucky have been placed in veteran's homes still but are still dying.

But then again you have the luxury of ranting and raving on a video game forum because they served their country.

If you want to rant and rave about over appreciation take up overpaid athletes, actors, models, and politicians.

Which service men and women do you think I'm referring too? And which wars do you think I'm talking about in particular?

Don't think too many now "elderly" people served in modern wars...

and my views on this in no way reflect how I feel about current war which is a waste of time, money, resources, and american manpower.

that being said unless someone thinks that by living breathing and posting on internet websites they are giving back MOAR to this country, or even to their community then a service person this debate is stupid.
 
[quote name='Clak']
michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif
[/QUOTE]
:rofl: I'm going to have to fix my post in the other thread now!

[quote name='usickenme']And where was the military during the Patriot Act or SOPA discussions?[/QUOTE]
399454_o.gif


Seriously though, those superficial "thanks for your service" gestures are...well...superficial. Shaking a vet's hand and a dollar might not even be worth a cup of coffee. I might find joining the military problematic, but just like any other hazardous job, there needs to be worker/labor protections in the form of worker's comp stuff, which thankfully they have, but that the VA is horrible at administering due to a number of things. The military isn't exactly the most benevolent organization when it comes to on-the-job injuries or even post-employment care and rival how Walmart treats some of it's workers. Respect is worthless with PTSD, no job, and a discount at the local grease pit. I'd rather have the energy focused on promoting and providing social services than bloviating about someone's "sacrifice."
 
I'll never forget the story my father used to tell me. About how when my grandmother once took my grandfather to the local VA hospital, he made her promise never to take him back. A friend of mine who's former Navy once said he didn't care about getting health insurance from an employer, because he could just go to the VA. I told him to have fun with that.
 
[quote name='Clak']I'll never forget the story my father used to tell me. About how when my grandmother once took my grandfather to the local VA hospital, he made her promise never to take him back. A friend of mine who's former Navy once said he didn't care about getting health insurance from an employer, because he could just go to the VA. I told him to have fun with that.[/QUOTE]

I knew this teabagger that's vet and developed cancer from years of dealing with dangerous chemicals/fumes while in the Army. Think his kids have some developmental problems too or that he can't have kids or something, I forget exactly which. He went to the VA because he had Tri-Care and they told him to get fucked because they said he couldn't prove it was because of his work. He also lived in the town that decided to go Libertopia and have people pay for street lights and got his lights turned off. SMH

That was a bit off-topic, but yeah, the VA needs LOTS of work. I'd have even have no problem keeping the military budget the way it is as long as the funds from the Wind Down are diverted to social services and medical care. I'm just pragmatic like that.
 
[quote name='pyschonerd']Goshhh do you two clowns have to ruin every thread in this political forum with your crap.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, saying that we need to improve how we treat the members and former members of our military in regards to their physical and mental health instead of some self-fellating gesture is "crap.":roll:
 
[quote name='dohdough']I knew this teabagger that's vet and developed cancer from years of dealing with dangerous chemicals/fumes while in the Army. Think his kids have some developmental problems too or that he can't have kids or something, I forget exactly which. He went to the VA because he had Tri-Care and they told him to get fucked because they said he couldn't prove it was because of his work. He also lived in the town that decided to go Libertopia and have people pay for street lights and got his lights turned off. SMH

That was a bit off-topic, but yeah, the VA needs LOTS of work. I'd have even have no problem keeping the military budget the way it is as long as the funds from the Wind Down are diverted to social services and medical care. I'm just pragmatic like that.[/QUOTE]Wait, you mean pay for street lights individually? Wtf kind ofweird ass town is that?
 
[quote name='Clak']Wait, you mean pay for street lights individually? Wtf kind of weird ass town is that?[/QUOTE]
Hahaha...they town was in the news a few years ago for this. Because they were in the hole monetarily, they decided to shut off some street lights to save money and instead of doing it in an equitable way by spreading it out, they just turned off the lights in the poorer parts of the town and crime spiked...who would've guessed. They also eliminated their Parks and Rec department as well, which also did some highway/road clean up. It was fucking bonkers. Colorado Springs I think.
 
To GBA :
Can we differentiate between actual veterans, those who served overseas and suffered injuries and trauma whether it be physical, emotional or mental and those wandering the streets drunk in vintage camo or those that got the boot from Junior ROTC but think they are Sgt. Slaughter?

Sure, classify vets however you want. Fascinating that you would go on about how we need to respect our vets more, while listing out veterans who you don't think deserve respect.

The answer to this question is "NO" we don't respect our veterans enough. Especially those that deserve respect because of how they have conducted themselves.

So how do we respect them more? I've gotta say, in the past...20 years, I can't think of (m)any times where I was out and about and a vet or active duty was getting anything worse than normal treatment, and most commonly preferential treatment. Should Doctors Without Borders participants, or foreign aid volunteers be treated just as well? Treated worse? They are in dangerous areas doing things to directly help people. You could make the argument that based on action, we should respect them more, since they don't have the potential responsibility of killing people in a foreign country, or the risk of "collateral damage", nor do they get veteran benefits.

Some of the people I admire the most in the world are former military. And in all the time I've spent with them they've never bragged about what they did or what they saw (it's my understanding that those who actually DID see or DID do things don't like talking about it); they've never gone out and said "I'm military" at a business in hopes or getting a discount or preferential treatment; and through their service they learned enough about respect NOT to act like a dickwad in the first place.

I guess I've been around very different folks. The Vietnam, and even Desert Storm era vets that I've known fit the first half of your paragraph, and 'nam vets were treated worse than any other veteran in our history. The Iraq/Afghanistan vets, have overwhelmingly been the whiners and chest pounders. There also seems to be a higher percent that are at least bigoted, if not openly racist. Let's face it, in this day and age, poor, uneducated kids are the largest group of enlistees. Kids aren't choosing between their full-ride to Stanford, and joining the Marines. If you enlist hating those "ragheads" seeing them fight back against you while you're in their country probably isn't going to change your mind, in fact, you might even decide to come back and get a tattoo to let everyone know you dislike Muslims.

So if you have seen people, assuming they actually are involved with the military (and not just claiming they are because they own a gun and went to a week worth of boot camp), and they have acted like over entitled douchebags then understand that isn't indicative of how the majority of service men and women behave.

It's not just them, it's businesses trying to show us all how much they "love the troops!" for PR. Active duty, board our plane first! Hey, boneless wings free on Tuesdays for our military! Veteran? We'll prioritize hiring you, over other qualified candidates!

In my opinion the one class of American's that is under appreciated the most are the elderly service men and women--many of whom are dying alone as we speak, and those who are lucky have been placed in veteran's homes still but are still dying.

Both grandfathers, and a step-grandfather served during WW2. We call them our greatest generation. Who has anything negative to say about those vets? They're among the most respected in our nation's history. Where have you been?

But then again you have the luxury of ranting and raving on a video game forum because they served their country.
Oh for Christ-sake, please tell me you aren't one of those morons who says if it weren't for our soldiers, we'd all be speaking German or Arabic. I can speak Arabic already anyway. Explain to me how our military over the last 20 years has created, protected, or expanded our "freedom" as Americans.

If you want to rant and rave about over appreciation take up overpaid athletes, actors, models, and politicians

Or we could stay on topic. I have a good friend who is a pro-athlete, and two friends who are actors. It's a tough job, but certainly not tougher than being infantry in the military. Who ever said it was? I definitely need more model friends though. What does that have to do with vets who think their asses should be permanently kissed, because they were able shoot up Baghdad, as part of the job they signed up for?
 
On a semi related note.

When you see the attacks on the constitution, the 2nd amendment with regards to new laws or attempted introduction of new laws on guns etc.

The rise of cult atheism and attacks on religion in particular Christianity

Now adding in this ill feeling towards military service men and women. It is concerning how quickly traditional values and historical foundations of our country are being replaced or challenged so quickly by some liberalish mentality.

I forgot the name of a poster here, but he regularly posts anti american rhetoric despite being an american. And this is becoming all too common.
I wonder where it's leading to?
Is it the cool new thing to be self hating? to trample all over decades and century's of American heritage and lifestyle?
You have a religious view on abortion or marriage and you're a bigoted homophobic dinosaur.....
you have no respect for somebody who risks their welfare and safety for your country and.......

People attack the right, conservatives all the time. But if 5 thousand conservatives go to a rally somewhere, when they leave you bet your ass the place is left clean and tidy. For some reason there is a huge lack of respect among a growing amount of people in our country for our country and people in our country.
 
[quote name='pyschonerd']

People attack the right, conservatives all the time. But if 5 thousand conservatives go to a rally somewhere, when they leave you bet your ass the place is left clean and tidy. For some reason there is a huge lack of respect among a growing amount of people in our country for our country and people in our country.[/QUOTE]

It's because a large part of our population hates the minority population and blames them for everything that goes wrong. I remember I brought up the Japanese Internment here once, and I mostly got "It was a different time, and it had to be done." Good thing to know that I'm only a citizen until it inconveniences people.
 
On a semi related note.

ORLY?

When you see the attacks on the constitution, the 2nd amendment with regards to new laws or attempted introduction of new laws on guns etc.

Agreed, I wish our military would fight to uphold the Constitution, expansion of the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretapping, endless detention. Wait, did you mean selective defense of the Constitution, or across the board?

The rise of cult atheism

I know, among the most bizarre practices of these cults, figuratively eating and drinking the blood of a dead guy...wait...what?

Now adding in this ill feeling towards military service men and women. It is concerning how quickly traditional values and historical foundations of our country are being replaced or challenged so quickly by some liberalish mentality.

Ill feeling? I think we need to drastically reduce our military. Too many are coming back fucked in the head, killing themselves, physically and mentally disabled, and all we can show for it is sectarian violence in Iraq, a destabilized Middle East and Iran, and a new breed of American-supported dictators. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED indeed. How traditional do you want our values to be? Are we talking black people drinking at different drinking fountains and on the back of the bus, or do you mean the tradition of being open to immigrants coming to the United States to better themselves? Just want to make sure we're on about the same traditions.

I forgot the name of a poster here, but he regularly posts anti american rhetoric despite being an american. And this is becoming all too common.

Agreed, if we could limit people's speech, and persecute those who question our government's actions, then we can bring ourselves closer to the Constitu...the Con...uh...hypocrisy-much?


Is it the cool new thing to be self hating? to trample all over decades and century's of American heritage and lifestyle?

Probably. I remember the yesteryears of blacks being 3/5ths of a person, women couldn't vote, Japanese got to have free room and board in internment camps, and they were THANKFUL of that, dammit. Now you have these uppity asshats who have the audacity to ask why we shouldn't invade foreign countries, trample on civil liberties, detain without charge, spy on our population, and look at our actions on a global scale. We're spiraling out of control.

bigoted homophobic dinosaur.....

This needs to be a new superhero on the 700 Club. If said dinosaur could read the Bible to schoolkids, I would quit my job and volunteer all my time to this pursuit.

you have no respect for somebody who risks their welfare and safety for your country and.......

Who said we don't respect them? Some of them are psychopathic rapists and murderers, those aren't the cream of the crop, but they all enlisted of their own free will. But answer me this, how is our military today, keeping you and your family safe? Did you have plans on vacationing in Kabul? Were you going to honeymoon in Baghdad? Open a coffee shop in Tehran? If so, then maybe they are protecting you as an American, but beyond that, I don't see how invading foreign countries has made me any safer. It's probably made me less safe, by raising hostilities abroad.

People attack the right, conservatives all the time. But if 5 thousand conservatives go to a rally somewhere, when they leave you bet your ass the place is left clean and tidy. For some reason there is a huge lack of respect among a growing amount of people in our country for our country and people in our country.

The only practical answer I have for you is because they are straight and white. Their illegal alien Hispanic housekeepers clean their homes, so the whites have the energy to cleanup after themselves when holding rallies.

You are what's wrong with America. The notion that the country is infallible, we don't make international blunders that compromise our safety, global image, and national security. The blind patriotism and longing for the "good ole days" when civil rights weren't an issue, we all wanted to kill the "$$$$s", and political leaders never had to answer the question of "Why did you do that?" Amurrica...fuck ya.
 
Sure, classify vets however you want. Fascinating that you would go on about how we need to respect our vets more, while listing out veterans who you don't think deserve respect.

Fascinating that you can't distinguish between the point I was making. Serving is serving and not serving is not serving. Hanging out in the JROTC does not make you a veteran. Going to boot camp does not make you a veteran. Wearing camo and driving a pick-up does not make you a veteran. My point is when people talk about "OMG look at that army asshole" how do they know he is a veteran? How do you know he served? I live near a ANG base. Because I saw someone in digi camo acting like a jackass I'm going to assume he is or was serving? Typically the loudest most self serving people who claim to be "X" aren't "X" and certainly would be the last people that "X" would want as spokespeople.


So how do we respect them more? I've gotta say, in the past...20 years, I can't think of (m)any times where I was out and about and a vet or active duty was getting anything worse than normal treatment, and most commonly preferential treatment. Should Doctors Without Borders participants, or foreign aid volunteers be treated just as well? Treated worse? They are in dangerous areas doing things to directly help people. You could make the argument that based on action, we should respect them more, since they don't have the potential responsibility of killing people in a foreign country, or the risk of "collateral damage", nor do they get veteran benefits.

How do we respect them more? We take care of them. You think we do a good job taking care of are military personnel when they come back stateside? No.. none of those "volunteers" should be respected more. Not even worth a debate. They can come home at any time. They can fall back on their MD or PhD.


I guess I've been around very different folks. The Vietnam, and even Desert Storm era vets that I've known fit the first half of your paragraph, and 'nam vets were treated worse than any other veteran in our history. The Iraq/Afghanistan vets, have overwhelmingly been the whiners and chest pounders. There also seems to be a higher percent that are at least bigoted, if not openly racist. Let's face it, in this day and age, poor, uneducated kids are the largest group of enlistees. Kids aren't choosing between their full-ride to Stanford, and joining the Marines. If you enlist hating those "ragheads" seeing them fight back against you while you're in their country probably isn't going to change your mind, in fact, you might even decide to come back and get a tattoo to let everyone know you dislike Muslims.

Do you think the chest pumping from modern war veterans is because they feel like they are less supported, and less respected and less valued then those that fought in WWI or WWII? Do you think maybe they are compensating for something? You have a similar attitude to that of Stephen King, local celebrity, who got criticized (rightfully) when he said "If You Can't Read, You'll End Up in the Army or Iraq"

You're bias is showing if you think people with college degrees aren't enlisting in the military. Perhaps not as infantry soliders but you ever heard of OCS? And God bless the military for taking the uneducated and poor.



It's not just them, it's businesses trying to show us all how much they "love the troops!" for PR. Active duty, board our plane first! Hey, boneless wings free on Tuesdays for our military! Veteran? We'll prioritize hiring you, over other qualified candidates!

And that's a bad thing? Should businesses be putting out PR for people like yourself saying "We prefer those who are against torture, speak Arabic, prefer girls as friends" Would that make you feel better?

Maybe you're the one trying to compensate for something because you don't think society thinks you are special enough.


Both grandfathers, and a step-grandfather served during WW2. We call them our greatest generation. Who has anything negative to say about those vets? They're among the most respected in our nation's history. Where have you been?

OH REALLY? How are they being cared for? It's one thing to talk it... it's another thing to follow through. It's one thing to say it, or have "Barbasol" commericials saying it to move products but it is another thing to put it into action. Ever been in a Veteran's home? Ever seen how this "so called greatest generation" is being cared for? Ever seen the mental and emotional problems that generation has developed as they aged?


Oh for Christ-sake, please tell me you aren't one of those morons who says if it weren't for our soldiers, we'd all be speaking German or Arabic. I can speak Arabic already anyway. Explain to me how our military over the last 20 years has created, protected, or expanded our "freedom" as Americans.

You want a cookie? You're telling me this because.....

You can be against the wars, military spending, the vastness of the military AND still support the individual soldiers.


Or we could stay on topic. I have a good friend who is a pro-athlete, and two friends who are actors. It's a tough job, but certainly not tougher than being infantry in the military. Who ever said it was? I definitely need more model friends though. What does that have to do with vets who think their asses should be permanently kissed, because they were able shoot up Baghdad, as part of the job they signed up for?

How many vets think their asses should be kissed? I don't know of any that act entitled like that. Do they exist? Sure. Your point?

Many may enlist to get an education, or to just be productive. Many enlist because they want to be mechanics or put out fires or even be doctors and end up "Shooting up Baghdad" because that is what they were DIRECTED to do.



EDIT:

Probably. I remember the yesteryears of blacks being 3/5ths of a person, women couldn't vote, Japanese got to have free room and board in internment camps, and they were THANKFUL of that, dammit.

You do? You really remember that? Seriously? For REALZ? Cross your heart?
 
[quote name='GBAstar']When I write:



Which service men and women do you think I'm referring too? And which wars do you think I'm talking about in particular?

[/QUOTE]



Seems to me you are parsing things a bit. In a sense, you seem to want to change the definition of veterans from people who have served in the military to people who have served in the military that you respect. But we are talking more general.

That's the discussion.

We can all agree that douchbags are douchbags.
 
[quote name='GBAstar']
Fascinating that you can't distinguish between the point I was making. Serving is serving and not serving is not serving. Hanging out in the JROTC does not make you a veteran. Going to boot camp does not make you a veteran. Wearing camo and driving a pick-up does not make you a veteran. My point is when people talk about "OMG look at that army asshole" how do they know he is a veteran? How do you know he served? I live near a ANG base. Because I saw someone in digi camo acting like a jackass I'm going to assume he is or was serving? Typically the loudest most self serving people who claim to be "X" aren't "X" and certainly would be the last people that "X" would want as spokespeople.

Did you even read the OP? I linked to the guy's blog which spurred my whole thought on the issue. It's the guys who say, "As a veteran who served this country and blew off my foot doing it, how dare this private company tell me to cover up a tattoo that I got to be offensive!" My point is the guys who need to tell us all they are a veteran, while complaining about not being treated like gods, are what's wrong. Not the 4 friends of mine on Facebook who were all veterans, agreed with my comments, and said it bothers them when the "I need ___ because I'm a veteran" card. They don't do it, because they have honor and dignity. I respect them.




How do we respect them more? We take care of them. You think we do a good job taking care of are military personnel when they come back stateside? No.. none of those "volunteers" should be respected more. Not even worth a debate. They can come home at any time. They can fall back on their MD or PhD.

But the free education, access to (poor) healthcare, preferential placement in many jobs, and payment they received for their service precludes them from being compared to volunteers who are healing people or delivering humanitarian aid? Hunh, it would appear we disagree on that point. I have just as much respect for a guy who was a sniper in Iraq, as a doctor who volunteered for 6 months in Haiti or Sub-Saharan Africa. Guess we're different.




Do you think the chest pumping from modern war veterans is because they feel like they are less supported, and less respected and less valued then those that fought in WWI or WWII? Do you think maybe they are compensating for something? You have a similar attitude to that of Stephen King, local celebrity, who got criticized (rightfully) when he said "If You Can't Read, You'll End Up in the Army or Iraq"

You're bias is showing if you think people with college degrees aren't enlisting in the military. Perhaps not as infantry soliders but you ever heard of OCS? And God bless the military for taking the uneducated and poor.

What's my bias? And yes, thank God for taking our uneducated and poor, and giving them an automatic rifle. I sleep better at night knowing they are armed, and representing our country and "defending our freedoms" in the desert of Iraq. Up next, SAM missiles for the American bi-polar.


And that's a bad thing? Should businesses be putting out PR for people like yourself saying "We prefer those who are against torture, speak Arabic, prefer girls as friends" Would that make you feel better?
I would think no preferential treatment is needed. Whether they speak Arabic, Hebrew, or Dutch, and fuck lots of chicks. I would like to see society reward people for being opposed to torture though, you're on to something there.

Maybe you're the one trying to compensate for something because you don't think society thinks you are special enough.
I don't know, you'd be surprised. I'm pretty special, and get recognized for it with some frequency.



OH REALLY? How are they being cared for? It's one thing to talk it... it's another thing to follow through. It's one thing to say it, or have "Barbasol" commericials saying it to move products but it is another thing to put it into action. Ever been in a Veteran's home? Ever seen how this "so called greatest generation" is being cared for? Ever seen the mental and emotional problems that generation has developed as they aged?
Shame on their relatives for not caring for them and being around them. I haven't visited a dedicated veteran's home, but a friend works at the VA. If a WWII vet is dying alone and depressed, fuck his relatives. They are the shits in all of this.


You want a cookie? You're telling me this because.....
I'm not big on sweets. I was mentioning I speak Arabic to prove I'm special. I'm guessing I nailed it, you've used the "hey, if it weren't for us lying about WMDs in Iraq and sending a bunch of kids over there to die, we'd all be speaking Arabic! Herpa derr derr"

You can be against the wars, military spending, the vastness of the military AND still support the individual soldiers.
Of course. I don't not support the soldiers. I'm not a fan of the ones who think they need to tell all of us about how great they are for choosing to enter the military. There are lots of great career aspirations and actions a person can undertake. For whatever reason, much of society thinks being a soldier is the only one that makes you infallible and better than the rest of the population.


How many vets think their asses should be kissed? I don't know of any that act entitled like that. Do they exist? Sure. Your point?

Many may enlist to get an education, or to just be productive. Many enlist because they want to be mechanics or put out fires or even be doctors and end up "Shooting up Baghdad" because that is what they were DIRECTED to do.

Sounds like they need a better means to an end. Enlisting during wartime pretty much ensures your ass is going to be on a plane. If you don't have any moral concerns with the war, then by all means, go for it. Just don't come back and tell me why you're better than everyone, because you elected to go.


EDIT:


You do? You really remember that? Seriously? For REALZ? Cross your heart?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I was there. I'm one of the signatories of the Bill of Rights. I'm the white guy with a wig.
 
berzirk the responses on the thread are more what caused this debate to spiral than the blog. I am sure most people in the military would laugh at that guy saying that. But the responses suggested they are no different to a janitor....or just a bunch of murderers and that's completely different.

Besides if you had your foot blown off, im sure at times when things piss you off you'd relate to it and your service in some bitter unfair annoyed way.
 
They are no different than a janitor in the term that they pick their job and do it. There is nothing special about what they do. They are people that chose their line of work and put themselves in a position for their job to require them to take the life of another human.

I understand the reverence people hold for those who served in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, Nam) but just don't care about modern vets, nor preferential treatment for those that served in any capacity.
 
[quote name='pyschonerd']berzirk the responses on the thread are more what caused this debate to spiral than the blog. I am sure most people in the military would laugh at that guy saying that. But the responses suggested they are no different to a janitor....or just a bunch of murderers and that's completely different.

Besides if you had your foot blown off, im sure at times when things piss you off you'd relate to it and your service in some bitter unfair annoyed way.
[/QUOTE]
Now I KNOW you're an alt. Seriously man, at least TRY to have different personalities and patterns.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']They are no different than a janitor in the term that they pick their job and do it. There is nothing special about what they do. They are people that chose their line of work and put themselves in a position for their job to require them to take the life of another human.

I understand the reverence people hold for those who served in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, Nam) but just don't care about modern vets, nor preferential treatment for those that served in any capacity.[/QUOTE]

Odd. Can you show me where a service man/woman is REQUIRED to take the life of another human?
 
The Iraq/Afghanistan vets, have overwhelmingly been the whiners and chest pounders

You know what? I'll give em that, because I haven't been shipped off to fucking foreign country to fight a fucking war.

Can we not hold anyone in higher regard? Especially when our role models are paraplegics killing their girlfriends and Bill Ayers.
 
Ok I will bite and be the first military guy to chime in.

First as far as veterans getting extra points on job applications that is more of self serving thing really. More often than not a veteran is going to be a better employee. We are going to be on time and we have learned how to be part of a team. We are going to be more accountable for our mistakes. We also receive a crap ton of leadership training as we progress and can usually slide into management positions with some ease.Now we have our bad apples too so this won't apply to every veteran.

Now as far as the special discounts and such. My thing is I will take them (I mean we are on a video game cost cutting website) but I don't get bent out of shape if someone doesn't have one.

I personally have been to Iraq and the Stan. At the Stan i was training Afghan airmen to do my job and also teaching English to pilot candidates. Not really over there to "murder" anyone but I was set to defend myself if need be. In fact my primary job is journalism/media relations you have to keep in mind not everybody that is in the military has a prime duty of combat.

As far as people thanking me for my service i actually get embarrassed. I know the nam vets had it worse than got treated like dog crap when they came back. Also i have seen a lot of wounded folks and other people that have had it harder than I have. So I really think of what i do more as a job than as something I should be lauded for.

The moral of the story is when you try to paint everybody with a broad brush you really make yourself look like a moron.
 
[quote name='jlarlee']First as far as veterans getting extra points on job applications that is more of self serving thing really. More often than not a veteran is going to be a better employee. We are going to be on time and we have learned how to be part of a team. We are going to be more accountable for our mistakes. We also receive a crap ton of leadership training as we progress and can usually slide into management positions with some ease.Now we have our bad apples too so this won't apply to every veteran.

The moral of the story is when you try to paint everybody with a broad brush you really make yourself look like a moron.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with most of your post, but saying that veterans overwhelmingly make better employees, and seamlessly slip into management roles through punctuality and leadership is...ambitious. The same could be said of people who did sports, participated in extra-curricular deadline-oriented activities, volunteered in the peace corp, or a host of other organizations. Would you disagree that a majority of out of highschool enlistees tend to be poorer and less educated than those who went straight to college? That's been my experience, but I would defer to you, since you've served side by side with them.

I'm not saying all veterans are bad dudes or good dudes (all the veterans I'm related to and are personal friends with, are really good people), I'm saying the deification of them is misplaced if we're going to somehow consider them to be on a separate level than the rest of the population. I'm glad they did it, because I have no interest in being drafted, but lets not lose sight of the fact that it was a career choice.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I don't disagree with most of your post, but saying that veterans overwhelmingly make better employees, and seamlessly slip into management roles through punctuality and leadership is...ambitious. The same could be said of people who did sports, participated in extra-curricular deadline-oriented activities, volunteered in the peace corp, or a host of other organizations. Would you disagree that a majority of out of highschool enlistees tend to be poorer and less educated than those who went straight to college? That's been my experience, but I would defer to you, since you've served side by side with them.

I'm not saying all veterans are bad dudes or good dudes (all the veterans I'm related to and are personal friends with, are really good people), I'm saying the deification of them is misplaced if we're going to somehow consider them to be on a separate level than the rest of the population. I'm glad they did it, because I have no interest in being drafted, but lets not lose sight of the fact that it was a career choice.[/QUOTE]

In my case I was burned out on school and didn't want to do college. Nothing patriotic in the choice, i make a good living as a high school graduate.

I do stand by what I say about veterans being better employees (except for the few rotten apples) I work with a lot of civilians in my job and they miss more deadlines and are late for appointments and meetings a lot more than my military counterparts. If used right military punishment really ingrains in us to be accountable and do our jobs. Of course some slackers fall through the cracks. As a civilian if you mess up at work you at worst can be fired. Mess up as a military member and you may be going to prison. It really hammers into us to take care of our business. I really don't see that as much in the civilian work force.

I have known many people that hire for organizations that have echoed this. Granted they may be just telling me this because I'm in the military and they think they are saying what i want to hear, But i really don't think that is the case. More likely than not you are going to get a solid employee if you hire a veteran. I would be interested if a CAG that works in human resources or hiring for a company could chime in on this point or we will just have to agree to disagree.

And to go back to your OP I agree with you. Veterans shouldn't expect special treatment. It makes me mad when I see someone acting out and expecting it. And honestly the people doing that are usually the ones who really don't deserve it. Some of the folks who have really sacrificed and deserve that treatment are also the most humble.
 
[quote name='jlarlee']And honestly the people doing that are usually the ones who really don't deserve it. Some of the folks who have really sacrificed and deserve that treatment are also the most humble.[/QUOTE]

We're absolutely on the same page!

To me, if you need to tell people why you're more important than everyone else, you probably aren't!
 
When do "Heroes" ever take orders from someone who is way unheroic?

They took orders from Bush.... and now they take order from someone no different in policies then Bush?

If I took my orders from a godfather I will be charged with conspiracy and being a accomplice in a felony... When you take orders from a POTUS that trashes the constitution you aren't called a traitor?

Hey does that make any farking sense?
 
[quote name='pyschonerd']
I forgot the name of a poster here, but he regularly posts anti american rhetoric despite being an american. And this is becoming all too common.
.[/QUOTE]

And here he is

[quote name='Finger_Shocker']When do "Heroes" ever take orders from someone who is way unheroic?

They took orders from Bush.... and now they take order from someone no different in policies then Bush?

If I took my orders from a godfather I will be charged with conspiracy and being a accomplice in a felony... When you take orders from a POTUS that trashes the constitution you aren't called a traitor?

Hey does that make any farking sense?[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='pyschonerd']Now adding in this ill feeling towards military service men and women. It is concerning how quickly traditional values and historical foundations of our country are being replaced or challenged[/QUOTE]

If you think our country was founded on the bullshit you speak of, read a damn history book. Traditional values. Yeah, right. :roll:
 
[quote name='pyschonerd']Goshhh do you two clowns have to ruin every thread in this political forum with your crap.[/QUOTE]

Just two?

As for the topic at hand, I fully support our military. Are there some who are self entitled assholes? Sure. But that's the same with society as a whole.
 
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