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Do we respect our veterans too much?


#31 berzirk   I'm not so serious CAGiversary!   2413 Posts   Joined 7.3 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 06:49 PM

Fascinating that you can't distinguish between the point I was making. Serving is serving and not serving is not serving. Hanging out in the JROTC does not make you a veteran. Going to boot camp does not make you a veteran. Wearing camo and driving a pick-up does not make you a veteran. My point is when people talk about "OMG look at that army asshole" how do they know he is a veteran? How do you know he served? I live near a ANG base. Because I saw someone in digi camo acting like a jackass I'm going to assume he is or was serving? Typically the loudest most self serving people who claim to be "X" aren't "X" and certainly would be the last people that "X" would want as spokespeople.


Did you even read the OP? I linked to the guy's blog which spurred my whole thought on the issue. It's the guys who say, "As a veteran who served this country and blew off my foot doing it, how dare this private company tell me to cover up a tattoo that I got to be offensive!" My point is the guys who need to tell us all they are a veteran, while complaining about not being treated like gods, are what's wrong. Not the 4 friends of mine on Facebook who were all veterans, agreed with my comments, and said it bothers them when the "I need ___ because I'm a veteran" card. They don't do it, because they have honor and dignity. I respect them.




How do we respect them more? We take care of them. You think we do a good job taking care of are military personnel when they come back stateside? No.. none of those "volunteers" should be respected more. Not even worth a debate. They can come home at any time. They can fall back on their MD or PhD.


But the free education, access to (poor) healthcare, preferential placement in many jobs, and payment they received for their service precludes them from being compared to volunteers who are healing people or delivering humanitarian aid? Hunh, it would appear we disagree on that point. I have just as much respect for a guy who was a sniper in Iraq, as a doctor who volunteered for 6 months in Haiti or Sub-Saharan Africa. Guess we're different.




Do you think the chest pumping from modern war veterans is because they feel like they are less supported, and less respected and less valued then those that fought in WWI or WWII? Do you think maybe they are compensating for something? You have a similar attitude to that of Stephen King, local celebrity, who got criticized (rightfully) when he said "If You Can't Read, You'll End Up in the Army or Iraq"

You're bias is showing if you think people with college degrees aren't enlisting in the military. Perhaps not as infantry soliders but you ever heard of OCS? And God bless the military for taking the uneducated and poor.


What's my bias? And yes, thank God for taking our uneducated and poor, and giving them an automatic rifle. I sleep better at night knowing they are armed, and representing our country and "defending our freedoms" in the desert of Iraq. Up next, SAM missiles for the American bi-polar.


And that's a bad thing? Should businesses be putting out PR for people like yourself saying "We prefer those who are against torture, speak Arabic, prefer girls as friends" Would that make you feel better?

I would think no preferential treatment is needed. Whether they speak Arabic, Hebrew, or Dutch, and Fuck lots of chicks. I would like to see society reward people for being opposed to torture though, you're on to something there.

Maybe you're the one trying to compensate for something because you don't think society thinks you are special enough.

I don't know, you'd be surprised. I'm pretty special, and get recognized for it with some frequency.



OH REALLY? How are they being cared for? It's one thing to talk it... it's another thing to follow through. It's one thing to say it, or have "Barbasol" commericials saying it to move products but it is another thing to put it into action. Ever been in a Veteran's home? Ever seen how this "so called greatest generation" is being cared for? Ever seen the mental and emotional problems that generation has developed as they aged?

Shame on their relatives for not caring for them and being around them. I haven't visited a dedicated veteran's home, but a friend works at the VA. If a WWII vet is dying alone and depressed, Fuck his relatives. They are the shits in all of this.


You want a cookie? You're telling me this because.....

I'm not big on sweets. I was mentioning I speak Arabic to prove I'm special. I'm guessing I nailed it, you've used the "hey, if it weren't for us lying about WMDs in Iraq and sending a bunch of kids over there to die, we'd all be speaking Arabic! Herpa derr derr"

You can be against the wars, military spending, the vastness of the military AND still support the individual soldiers.

Of course. I don't not support the soldiers. I'm not a fan of the ones who think they need to tell all of us about how great they are for choosing to enter the military. There are lots of great career aspirations and actions a person can undertake. For whatever reason, much of society thinks being a soldier is the only one that makes you infallible and better than the rest of the population.


How many vets think their asses should be kissed? I don't know of any that act entitled like that. Do they exist? Sure. Your point?

Many may enlist to get an education, or to just be productive. Many enlist because they want to be mechanics or put out fires or even be doctors and end up "Shooting up Baghdad" because that is what they were DIRECTED to do.


Sounds like they need a better means to an end. Enlisting during wartime pretty much ensures your ass is going to be on a plane. If you don't have any moral concerns with the war, then by all means, go for it. Just don't come back and tell me why you're better than everyone, because you elected to go.


EDIT:


You do? You really remember that? Seriously? For REALZ? Cross your heart?


Yes, I was there. I'm one of the signatories of the Bill of Rights. I'm the white guy with a wig.

#32 irideabike   no show CAGiversary!   6031 Posts   Joined 6.7 Years Ago  

irideabike

Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:12 PM

They are no different than a janitor in the term that they pick their job and do it. There is nothing special about what they do. They are people that chose their line of work and put themselves in a position for their job to require them to take the life of another human.

I understand the reverence people hold for those who served in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, Nam) but just don't care about modern vets, nor preferential treatment for those that served in any capacity.

There are no shortcuts. No do-overs. What happened, happened. Trust me. I know. All of this matters.

Madden 13 SB Champ in the CAG gentleman's league.


#33 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6441 Posts   Joined 6.1 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

berzirk the responses on the thread are more what caused this debate to spiral than the blog. I am sure most people in the military would laugh at that guy saying that. But the responses suggested they are no different to a janitor....or just a bunch of murderers and that's completely different.

Besides if you had your foot blown off, im sure at times when things piss you off you'd relate to it and your service in some bitter unfair annoyed way.

Now I KNOW you're an alt. Seriously man, at least TRY to have different personalities and patterns.
dohdough.png


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#34 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9269 Posts   Joined 4.8 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

They are no different than a janitor in the term that they pick their job and do it. There is nothing special about what they do. They are people that chose their line of work and put themselves in a position for their job to require them to take the life of another human.

I understand the reverence people hold for those who served in the past (WWI, WWII, Korea, Nam) but just don't care about modern vets, nor preferential treatment for those that served in any capacity.


Odd. Can you show me where a service man/woman is REQUIRED to take the life of another human?

#35 Jruth   No trite shit crew gamer bro CAGiversary!   271 Posts   Joined 7.3 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

The Iraq/Afghanistan vets, have overwhelmingly been the whiners and chest pounders


You know what? I'll give em that, because I haven't been shipped off to fucking foreign country to fight a fucking war.

Can we not hold anyone in higher regard? Especially when our role models are paraplegics killing their girlfriends and Bill Ayers.

Haven't you figured it out yet fanboys? Your mommy can't afford both consoles! Be grateful with what you got and shut the Fuck up.

 

 

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#36 jlarlee   Tom Brady GOAT CAGiversary!   5564 Posts   Joined 11.7 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:36 PM

Ok I will bite and be the first military guy to chime in.

First as far as veterans getting extra points on job applications that is more of self serving thing really. More often than not a veteran is going to be a better employee. We are going to be on time and we have learned how to be part of a team. We are going to be more accountable for our mistakes. We also receive a crap ton of leadership training as we progress and can usually slide into management positions with some ease.Now we have our bad apples too so this won't apply to every veteran.

Now as far as the special discounts and such. My thing is I will take them (I mean we are on a video game cost cutting website) but I don't get bent out of shape if someone doesn't have one.

I personally have been to Iraq and the Stan. At the Stan i was training Afghan airmen to do my job and also teaching English to pilot candidates. Not really over there to "murder" anyone but I was set to defend myself if need be. In fact my primary job is journalism/media relations you have to keep in mind not everybody that is in the military has a prime duty of combat.

As far as people thanking me for my service i actually get embarrassed. I know the nam vets had it worse than got treated like dog crap when they came back. Also i have seen a lot of wounded folks and other people that have had it harder than I have. So I really think of what i do more as a job than as something I should be lauded for.

The moral of the story is when you try to paint everybody with a broad brush you really make yourself look like a moron.
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#37 berzirk   I'm not so serious CAGiversary!   2413 Posts   Joined 7.3 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:49 PM

First as far as veterans getting extra points on job applications that is more of self serving thing really. More often than not a veteran is going to be a better employee. We are going to be on time and we have learned how to be part of a team. We are going to be more accountable for our mistakes. We also receive a crap ton of leadership training as we progress and can usually slide into management positions with some ease.Now we have our bad apples too so this won't apply to every veteran.

The moral of the story is when you try to paint everybody with a broad brush you really make yourself look like a moron.


I don't disagree with most of your post, but saying that veterans overwhelmingly make better employees, and seamlessly slip into management roles through punctuality and leadership is...ambitious. The same could be said of people who did sports, participated in extra-curricular deadline-oriented activities, volunteered in the peace corp, or a host of other organizations. Would you disagree that a majority of out of highschool enlistees tend to be poorer and less educated than those who went straight to college? That's been my experience, but I would defer to you, since you've served side by side with them.

I'm not saying all veterans are bad dudes or good dudes (all the veterans I'm related to and are personal friends with, are really good people), I'm saying the deification of them is misplaced if we're going to somehow consider them to be on a separate level than the rest of the population. I'm glad they did it, because I have no interest in being drafted, but lets not lose sight of the fact that it was a career choice.

#38 jlarlee   Tom Brady GOAT CAGiversary!   5564 Posts   Joined 11.7 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:07 PM

I don't disagree with most of your post, but saying that veterans overwhelmingly make better employees, and seamlessly slip into management roles through punctuality and leadership is...ambitious. The same could be said of people who did sports, participated in extra-curricular deadline-oriented activities, volunteered in the peace corp, or a host of other organizations. Would you disagree that a majority of out of highschool enlistees tend to be poorer and less educated than those who went straight to college? That's been my experience, but I would defer to you, since you've served side by side with them.

I'm not saying all veterans are bad dudes or good dudes (all the veterans I'm related to and are personal friends with, are really good people), I'm saying the deification of them is misplaced if we're going to somehow consider them to be on a separate level than the rest of the population. I'm glad they did it, because I have no interest in being drafted, but lets not lose sight of the fact that it was a career choice.


In my case I was burned out on school and didn't want to do college. Nothing patriotic in the choice, i make a good living as a high school graduate.

I do stand by what I say about veterans being better employees (except for the few rotten apples) I work with a lot of civilians in my job and they miss more deadlines and are late for appointments and meetings a lot more than my military counterparts. If used right military punishment really ingrains in us to be accountable and do our jobs. Of course some slackers fall through the cracks. As a civilian if you mess up at work you at worst can be fired. Mess up as a military member and you may be going to prison. It really hammers into us to take care of our business. I really don't see that as much in the civilian work force.

I have known many people that hire for organizations that have echoed this. Granted they may be just telling me this because I'm in the military and they think they are saying what i want to hear, But i really don't think that is the case. More likely than not you are going to get a solid employee if you hire a veteran. I would be interested if a CAG that works in human resources or hiring for a company could chime in on this point or we will just have to agree to disagree.

And to go back to your OP I agree with you. Veterans shouldn't expect special treatment. It makes me mad when I see someone acting out and expecting it. And honestly the people doing that are usually the ones who really don't deserve it. Some of the folks who have really sacrificed and deserve that treatment are also the most humble.
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#39 Clak   Made of star stuff. CAGiversary!   8079 Posts   Joined 6.3 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:38 PM

This has got to be one of the weirdest threads we've had in a while.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#40 berzirk   I'm not so serious CAGiversary!   2413 Posts   Joined 7.3 Years Ago  

Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

And honestly the people doing that are usually the ones who really don't deserve it. Some of the folks who have really sacrificed and deserve that treatment are also the most humble.


We're absolutely on the same page!

To me, if you need to tell people why you're more important than everyone else, you probably aren't!

#41 Finger_Shocker   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   977 Posts   Joined 2.6 Years Ago  

Finger_Shocker

Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:48 PM

When do "Heroes" ever take orders from someone who is way unheroic?

They took orders from Bush.... and now they take order from someone no different in policies then Bush?

If I took my orders from a godfather I will be charged with conspiracy and being a accomplice in a felony... When you take orders from a POTUS that trashes the constitution you aren't called a traitor?

Hey does that make any farking sense?

#42 Access_Denied   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   2834 Posts   Joined 8.1 Years Ago  

Access_Denied

Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:09 PM

Now adding in this ill feeling towards military service men and women. It is concerning how quickly traditional values and historical foundations of our country are being replaced or challenged


If you think our country was founded on the bullshit you speak of, read a damn history book. Traditional values. Yeah, right. :roll:

#43 Confucius   Corporate Shill CAGiversary!   15987 Posts   Joined 7.3 Years Ago  

Posted 06 April 2013 - 01:47 PM

Goshhh do you two clowns have to ruin every thread in this political forum with your crap.


Just two?

As for the topic at hand, I fully support our military. Are there some who are self entitled assholes? Sure. But that's the same with society as a whole.

#44 Syntax Error   Art School Dropout CAGiversary!   5121 Posts   Joined 3.1 Years Ago  

Syntax Error

Posted 06 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

For things like VA benefits, I firmly believe that there is an obligation to provide the best possible service for veterans. It's part of the agreement we make with people when they sign up and we should be fully committed to fulfilling our part of the deal as a nation. A veteran is owed these things.

For things like hiring or discounts, if a business finds they do better hiring veterans or get the warm fuzzies from knocking 5% off their bill, I'll trust them to know their business well enough to make those choices. No one is owed anything here but no harm done if it happens.

I do not, however, believe the opinion of a veteran is worth more than anyone else's (aside from obvious personal experience issues). Having served doesn't make one a super-citizen with more merit to opine on gun control, religion, liberty, freedom, socialism, federalism, seat belt laws, taxation, health care or anything else. A veteran is owed nothing here and does the notion of citizenship a disservice should they act this way.

#45 mykevermin   Queen of Scotland CAGiversary!   36465 Posts   Joined 11.1 Years Ago  

Posted 06 April 2013 - 04:38 PM


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#46 RealDeals   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1093 Posts   Joined 4.1 Years Ago  

Posted 06 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

You know who we should respect more? Kurt Angle.


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I need power to come back on! I still need to spend $10 or so to get my $20. Stupid hurricane Sandy Vagina!

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#47 Clak   Made of star stuff. CAGiversary!   8079 Posts   Joined 6.3 Years Ago  

Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:45 PM

Allowing people to comment on articles and videos has to be one of the dumbest ideas anyone has ever thought of. Just reading comments from yahoo and YouTube will make me feel like leaving the planet.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift

#48 ID2006   "Klaymen, up here!" CAGiversary!   504 Posts   Joined 8.5 Years Ago  

Posted 07 April 2013 - 12:25 AM

Allowing people to comment on articles and videos has to be one of the dumbest ideas anyone has ever thought of. Just reading comments from yahoo and YouTube will make me feel like leaving the planet.


I know what you mean. It took me a while, personally, but I finally broke the habit of scrolling that far down on those kinds of sites. At least my current news sites don't really have that problem.

#49 cancerman1120   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8282 Posts   Joined 5.4 Years Ago  

cancerman1120

Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:08 AM

Not really a comment on this topic but rather a personal endorsement of a program I have been involved with at times.

It is called Honor Flight and if you have ever gone to the Airport to see these men and women come back from visiting the DC memorials you know it is pretty great.

Basically they are trying to send WWII vets to DC to see the WWII memorial (which was not even finished until 2004) and give thanks to this disappearing generation (some stats say one dies every 90 sec). They are also sending terminally ill vets to see their memorials (Korea, Vietnam) . I had the chance to see a group of 6th graders welcome home (and raise funds) for a vet who volunteered at their school. It was really awesome.

Anyway, I think vets deserve our recognition and respect but not any extra "freedoms" I guess.

Link to Honor Flight if anyone is interested in learning more.

http://starsandstripeshonorflight.org/



#50 skiizim   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8543 Posts   Joined 6.8 Years Ago  

Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:41 AM

I think this country needs to enact conscription-close topic.

#51 cancerman1120   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8282 Posts   Joined 5.4 Years Ago  

cancerman1120

Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:54 AM

I think this country needs to enact conscription-close topic.


The irony of this is that countries many conservatives talk about as "socialist" like Norway, Finland and Denmark all practice military conscription.

Conscription would be an interesting situation for many conservatives. It combines things they "love" and "hate" all in one package.

#52 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9269 Posts   Joined 4.8 Years Ago  

Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:05 AM

I think this country needs to enact conscription-close topic.


Are you kidding?

We have kids that get parental permission to ditch gym class from the time they are 12 up and through high school and you think we are going to make some sort of service mandatory?

I would love to see that happen but it would never in a million years.

#53 cancerman1120   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8282 Posts   Joined 5.4 Years Ago  

cancerman1120

Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:13 AM

Are you kidding?

We have kids that get parental permission to ditch gym class from the time they are 12 up and through high school and you think we are going to make some sort of service mandatory?

I would love to see that happen but it would never in a million years.


We could just go the way of Sparta at that point and throw the unfit kids off a cliff. Something tells me we would stop having an obesity problem in the US.

#54 usickenme   I'm the a-hole CAGiversary!   2499 Posts   Joined 11.6 Years Ago  

usickenme

Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:14 AM

The moral of the story is when you try to paint everybody with a broad brush you really make yourself look like a moron.


agree, also when you call a country "The Stan"

I'm kidding

I'm not.

Okay maybe both

#55 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9269 Posts   Joined 4.8 Years Ago  

Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:19 AM

We could just go the way of Sparta at that point and throw the unfit kids off a cliff. Something tells me we would stop having an obesity problem in the US.


Or we could stop allow kids to opt out of everything that makes them uncomfortable.

But the point being I would like for you to explain how conscription would work when we have thousands of young students who never participate in a single gym class.

#56 Paco   GO TEAM GIRTH! CAGiversary!   4016 Posts   Joined 9.4 Years Ago  

Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:23 AM

It's a weird sense of entitlement and it's not just veterans. I've had cops claim they couldn't possibly be mistaken/straight out lying because they are cops. Senior citizens, anyone with a handicap/condition a lot of them seem to think basically because of some characteristic they are beyond reproach and deserve special treatment.


You forgot overprivileged white women. The ones that think they're better and smarter then everyone else because they endured the hardship of not getting a benz for their sweet 16 and they have to go to a public school instead of a private university. OH THE HORROR.
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#57 cancerman1120   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8282 Posts   Joined 5.4 Years Ago  

cancerman1120

Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:27 AM

Or we could stop allow kids to opt out of everything that makes them uncomfortable.

But the point being I would like for you to explain how conscription would work when we have thousands of young students who never participate in a single gym class.


Oh I was not saying it would work. What is worse is the fact schools now won't allow kids to take gym both semesters even if they want it. Part of that is funding problems though. This whole thing ties into the no keeping score, everyone gets a trophy that my generation of parents (30-40 years old) seem to have latched onto.

My Sparta comment was meant as a joke.

#58 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9269 Posts   Joined 4.8 Years Ago  

Posted 07 April 2013 - 03:30 AM

Oh I was not saying it would work. What is worse is the fact schools now won't allow kids to take gym both semesters even if they want it. Part of that is funding problems though. This whole thing ties into the no keeping score, everyone gets a trophy that my generation of parents (30-40 years old) seem to have latched onto.

My Sparta comment was meant as a joke.


I would love to see government loans for higher education forgiven if the recipient does service of some sort post school and government grants for higher education given for those that do service of some sort prior to starting higher education.

And I'm not talking about the national guard multi year commitment either.

#59 Duo_Maxwell   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   5748 Posts   Joined 11.0 Years Ago  

Duo_Maxwell

Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:33 AM

You forgot overprivileged white women. The ones that think they're better and smarter then everyone else because they endured the hardship of not getting a benz for their sweet 16 and they have to go to a public school instead of a private university. OH THE HORROR.


I think this is the 1st time anyone has used "overprivileged" to describe someone who actually does not get excesses in life such as luxury cars or private education. I'm not even 100% that's a real word, but if so it means that you'd have to have excess beyond even the privileged, in which case I'd expect they would indeed drive a new Mercedes and attend private schools.

Also way to throw some crazy racism in there. I've not lived a long life yet, but I've met all too many women that were arrogant & thought they were the smartest person in the room. Yet they were certainly not always women, white, or "overprilvilged".

I would love to see government loans for higher education forgiven if the recipient does service of some sort post school and government grants for higher education given for those that do service of some sort prior to starting higher education.

And I'm not talking about the national guard multi year commitment either.


To name a few that service-related programs paying for college:

ROTC, GI Bill 2.0, National Health Service Corps, AmeriCorps, Federal Work Study Program (though you work during college for this, it's basically just a job not a loan/grant but I think some of it is allocated for paying students doing actual community service work)

I know there are more as well. Plenty of programs/scholarships/grants, both public and private, can pay for some or even all of your higher education expenses exist. But it can be difficult to always find and apply for these, especially for kids that are essentially on their own. The system for finding and getting into these programs could maybe be unified somewhat and certainly improved.

#60 Clak   Made of star stuff. CAGiversary!   8079 Posts   Joined 6.3 Years Ago  

Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:50 AM

Don't mention racism in here, some people get their panties in a wad and will accuse you of race bating or other nonsense.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. -George Carlin

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” -Mark Twain

“When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -Jonathon Swift