Joe Biden Sees No Legal Problem with Taxing Violent Video Games There would be “no r

It was suggested by Graham that proceeds of the tax would go towards victims of gun violence and their families, according to the website's sources.
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Or groups that will lobby for tighter gun restrictions under the pretense that "the victims want this!"
 
What are we to discuss? Whether there are legal problems or whether it's pertinent to do so?

There aren't any legal problems, so that's that, I suppose.
 
I don't know that there wouldn't be any legal problems. It's taxing one particular type of game more heavily than others purely because they're violent, and there have been at least a couple court cases which have upheld that video games are a form of protected speech no matter how violent they are. If the Supreme Court was unwilling to allow a ban on violent video games on the grounds of the First Amendment, I really can't see them allowing a tax that discriminates on the basis of what they've said is protected speech.
 
[quote name='Cantatus']I don't know that there wouldn't be any legal problems. It's taxing one particular type of game more heavily than others purely because they're violent, and there have been at least a couple court cases which have upheld that video games are a form of protected speech no matter how violent they are. If the Supreme Court was unwilling to allow a ban on violent video games on the grounds of the First Amendment, I really can't see them allowing a tax that discriminates on the basis of what they've said is protected speech.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, the courts often allow restrictions on things like guns even though the Constitution expressly allows their possession. I think they could craft this law in a way that would allow it to squeak by. If they pulled it off, it would result in violent games no longer being produced as often. They'll be making games like COD but you can forget about seeing something like Deus Ex. The risk/reward would become even more unbalanced.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']To be fair, the courts often allow restrictions on things like guns even though the Constitution expressly allows their possession. I think they could craft this law in a way that would allow it to squeak by. If they pulled it off, it would result in violent games no longer being produced as often. They'll be making games like COD but you can forget about seeing something like Deus Ex. The risk/reward would become even more unbalanced.[/QUOTE]

What kind of tax do you think they are going to impose. Even if they were $5 more per game people are going to buy M rated games over T rated games. The audience wants M rated and that is what they would pay.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']What kind of tax do you think they are going to impose. Even if they were $5 more per game people are going to buy M rated games over T rated games. The audience wants M rated and that is what they would pay.[/QUOTE]

This is true. It is another one of those taxes that admittedly won't do anything, but they tote it as a win because "at least it will raise money for a cause".

There should be a law against laws like this.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
There aren't any legal problems, so that's that, I suppose.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't go that far. Unfortunately Joe Biden is a lawyer and should know both the law & history better. But when you barely skid by in law school and stop practicing law actively in the 70's I suppose that's what you get.

There's very, very few if any current excise taxes imposed especially on legal & proven first amendment protected media such as video games. Fines and penalties for violations maybe, but no taxes, especially not federal taxes. Look up the issues of skin/sin taxes. States have been trying to pass excise tax laws on things like porn, movies, even violent video games for the last half decade or more and just about every time it gets shot down for the same legal concerns revolving around protected speech. Some do pass by being greased up but if challenged are typically defeated.

That's not even going into the whole quagmire of how they'd enforce it and choose what to actually tax. Or the "slippery slope" argument that if you tax one form or type of media where is the line drawn?

Not to mention I've got to question if it would even have the desired effect lawmakers would want. Placing say a 3% tax would more than likely just be a cost passed on to the consumer, which sometimes has an effect. However video games have been a fairly high dollar luxury item since almost their inception. Hell even if it cost $70 for a new release with a tax, gamers would just be paying essentially the same price as we did in the 16-bit era. So in reality I doubt would not stem "violent" media and make the world a safer place. It could hit the developers/publishers a little harder in the wallet as another cost to consider I guess but developing a full console game now days is already a huge financial risk.
 
You make a lot of very good points, economically and legally, as to why this shouldn't be the case.

I totally agree with the economic arguments (and, unrelated, think we're headed towards a potential "crash" in the video game industry in the next few years), but your arguments on the legal/protected speech side of things are compelling. I'll grant you it's clearly not as easy as I suggested earlier.

It's a bloody shame that we're even having this conversation, because it's a side effect of politicians too frightened to take on the power elite in the form of groups like the NRA. If guns don't kill people (as the charmingly anti-intellectual bumper sticker saying goes), then Call of Duty certainly doesn't kill people.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']

It's a bloody shame that we're even having this conversation, because it's a side effect of politicians too frightened to take on the power elite in the form of groups like the NRA. If guns don't kill people (as the charmingly anti-intellectual bumper sticker saying goes), then Call of Duty certainly doesn't kill people.[/QUOTE]

Too true. I also agree that the gaming industry as we currently know it will probably crash before this decade it up. And what has always fascinated me about subjects like this proposed tax is the real lack of logic applied to it. Studies have been done and millions of people play "violent games" and never harm a soul in their lifetime, yet until the results fit their agenda politicians keep funding studies and digging. As voters I think we like to assume our politicians are capable of critical thinking, but things like this tax or banning types of media make me lose faith.

Also related to your note about politicians bowing down to powerful groups, does it bother anyone else that this meeting was with a bunch faith-based group leaders? I don't have any problems with religion or even politicians being religious guys. I actually share the same religion as the aforementioned Joe Biden. And I understand there where other groups there as this was a gun-control strategy meeting to start. However, I find it disheartening that some one like the vice-president would be there discussing & implying what could be national policy & tax law with religious leaders there representing the interests of their faith such as Franklin Graham. If Franklin Graham wants a say in America's governmental policies (besides his vote) then he should run for Congress. Otherwise it's like Sesame Street taught us... "One of these things just doesn't belong..."
 
Well, what's worse is that if he didn't meet with them or go to church or what-have-you, it would be worse for him politically. Non-religious or athiest candidates are fucked; but whether that's because of religious influence in politics or the public's general religiosity is unknown.

It becomes a chicken/egg question; does MTV makes people idiots and blind consumers, or do idiots and blind consumers flock towards MTV?
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']What kind of tax do you think they are going to impose. Even if they were $5 more per game people are going to buy M rated games over T rated games. The audience wants M rated and that is what they would pay.[/QUOTE]
I'd be making a wild guess but these taxes are normally flat taxes based on the number of items you buy like "per pack of cigarette". If it's a flat fee of $5 then people buying games for $60 on release will still buy it. For a CAG hoping to get a game for $10 on Black Friday, they're suddenly going to pay 50% more which in turn means you're going to be buying 50% less games. Games on the cheap/clearance/sale prices are going to WAY more expensive in terms of a percent you're paying.

For something like a small XBLA, PSN, etc game a $5 tax would completely DESTROY the market. Something like the iPhone market would be wiped out too. Could you imagine the Dead Space game or Infinity Blade being made in that kind of climate? What if the tax is $10 a game? Again, COD would be fine but how would something like Darksiders fair? That game only sold 1.3 million and dropped in price quickly, how the hell would they sell that game for $70 and a drop in price to $40 is now a drop in price to $50. The middle of the market is already in really bad shape. A tax like that would bankrupt a bunch of companies (ThQ would certainly have been bankrupt much sooner if a tax on M rated games had been around for the last couple of years).



I should add: I think the chances of a violent video game tax being passed by Congress is very small. It was just announced that the budget deficit is 25% better than they expected and Republican's don't think any tax is a good tax so there will be "no new revenue".
 
[quote name='Blaster man']I'd be making a wild guess but these taxes are normally flat taxes based on the number of items you buy like "per pack of cigarette". If it's a flat fee of $5 then people buying games for $60 on release will still buy it. For a CAG hoping to get a game for $10 on Black Friday, they're suddenly going to pay 50% more which in turn means you're going to be buying 50% less games. Games on the cheap/clearance/sale prices are going to WAY more expensive in terms of a percent you're paying.

For something like a small XBLA, PSN, etc game a $5 tax would completely DESTROY the market. Something like the iPhone market would be wiped out too. Could you imagine the Dead Space game or Infinity Blade being made in that kind of climate? What if the tax is $10 a game? Again, COD would be fine but how would something like Darksiders fair? That game only sold 1.3 million and dropped in price quickly, how the hell would they sell that game for $70 and a drop in price to $40 is now a drop in price to $50. The middle of the market is already in really bad shape. A tax like that would bankrupt a bunch of companies (ThQ would certainly have been bankrupt much sooner if a tax on M rated games had been around for the last couple of years).



I should add: I think the chances of a violent video game tax being passed by Congress is very small. It was just announced that the budget deficit is 25% better than they expected and Republican's don't think any tax is a good tax so there will be "no new revenue".[/QUOTE]

Not exactly, like any tax law, the current excise taxes are not really as simple as being flat taxes. For alcohol & tobacco products the taxes are actually broken down to categories. The maker of the product is told what category they are in and they typically pass that cost on the consumer. Note the tax on firearms, if an excise tax like the one proposed would take effect then this is how they would be forced to do it. A percentage of the game's selling price. As you pointed out prices vary too wildly and there are too many types (console, digital, online, etc.) to control practically any other way. But a percentage tax has been tried and shot down in places like Missouri & Oklahoma. Also with all the focus on the developers/publishers you forget about the distributors. If they did impose a flat $5 tax including digital distribution they would be going directly up against very large & powerful American companies like Amazon, Apple, Google and all their lawyers & lobbyists. I really don't think they want that.

Plus you start to open the horrid can of worms that is actually enforcing something like this. To begin, they are talking taxing "violent" media, so you've already got a huge issue in the the ratings systems for TV, Movies, Games are all very different. That can be worked around, but it also becomes an issue of government control. Neither the MPAA or the ESRB are government-backed organizations. They are simply industry standards ratings board. What happens if either one just decides to change or stop their ratings? Now you've got an excise tax on the books with no way to accurately enforce it. Not too mention that getting your game or movie rated is a strictly voluntary procedure. Right now almost all are simply because many theaters and retailers will not stock your movie/game if it X-rated, Adults Only or in the case of games unrated.

Then there's stepping into the world of digital distribution, unlike movies, there is no theatre in which games go before being digitally disturbed. The fact is that until late last year ESRB had no way of ratings digital games, they built some weird "interactive" ratings system and even now many digital & online games are released without being rated. Infinity Blade is a good example, it's not ESRB rated. Never was and never needs to be. Indie XBLA games are not rated. Regular XBLA are only rated because Microsoft wants them to be. If Microsoft drops that requirement, this tax becomes impotent. Apple, Steam, etc. don't even require ratings. I could probably trudge up more examples but I'm sure the point is there.

Yes the government could go the way of U.S. Bill H.R.287 (google it, scary stuff), which among ridiculous things says "it would be unlawful to commercially distribute, sell, or rent a video game that does not have a rating by the ESRB." Now with that they just land right back in the 1st amendment frying pan... It will be very much like the laws banning the sale of M & AO rated games, shut down for violating that pesky US Constitution.

And all of that doesn't even start in on what will they do with free-to-play online games? Unrated DVDs/Blus, etc.?
 
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