CAGcast #333: So Long and Thanks for all the Fish, Phil

CheapyD

CheapyD

Head Cheap Ass
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The gang brushes up on the latest sexist terminology with Saints Row IV, enjoys Skulls of the Shogun and The Swapper, and wonders if time is running out for a meaningful Wii U price drop.
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Show Linkage/Notes:

Intro/Outro: Congratulations/Towa Tei  - Wombat's Favorite Youtube Video

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Please submit your show questions via CAGbag or Twitter.

I guess you can listen to Wombat's other podcast, Uninformed Opinions.

Here are some games I've played live on Twitch:
Euro Truck Simulator 2
http://www.twitch.tv/cheapassgamer/c/2598133

Rogue Legacy
http://www.twitch.tv/cheapassgamer/c/2564045

 
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Wombat not that I would ever say anything bad to you but honestly regarding your family ...you have a beautiful family. So no need to ever get down for some dumb nut saying something mean about you or your family on the Internet.
 
I'm not buying Batman Origins because it doesn't have Kevin Conroy, Mark Hamill, or Paul Dini's Involvement. They helped make the previous Batman games really great, and now they hire new people who cost less. I might end up buying it when it's $14.99 on gamefly or something, but I have no interest at the moment.

 
whats up with the soundcloud links lately?


It's a good place for people to listen if they want to stream it, rather than download.
 
Cheapy I have something to say about your son. He is an incredibly cute kid.

 
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NEWS FLASH!!! Movies with Death and Dismemberment are not appropriate for a 6 Year old. Put your own selfishness aside and shut the show off.

 
Dammit Wombat, just hang it up! Every week minutes / hour of my life wasted. And Unifromed Opinions? More like Misinformed Boringpinions!!

;)  ;)

 
Sgt Barone said:
Can't wait to listen!
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QFT. Thanks for the podcast fellas!

NEWSFLASH: It appears that Cheapy's suspicions about kinect 2.0 may very well be correct according to John Carmack: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/02/carmack-says-xbox-one-and-ps4-hardware-essentially-the-same Perhaps a round of hate masterbate is in order? Fire on the hole!

Wombat: Your contribution to lexicon of internet culture slang is great but perhaps it would be better shortened into Haterbate? Either way I can't wait to catch it trending or the 1st time I get a text message from someone using the expression. :twisted:

 
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Cheapy's excitement over Flashpoint got me to order it.  I was on the fence but the ringing endorsement push me over the edge.  The DC animated movies have all been top notch.  I wish that DC had used the Green Lantern: First Flight movie as a template for the live action movie.  I still don't understand why they won't use the Wonder Woman animated movie as a template for a live action movie.  it was phenomenal and the good will they would get for having a female lead would separate them from Marvel, who so far have shied away from having a female lead.

Speaking of female leads, I wonder how Frank Frazetta and Boris Vallejo would fare now if the Sorceress for Dragon's Crown is getting this kind of push back.  Fantasy characters have historically had exaggerated proportions and those two were masters at fantasy character design, with plenty of scantily clad, well endowed women.  We are getting into really dangerous territory if are going to start reducing the review score of a game because of the art style.  Does Miranda's skin tight cat suit mean Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 should have lower scores?  What about the vast cast of the Capcom fighters from Sagat to Morrigan to Cammy or the Mortal Kombatants who all wear skimpy outfits?  As a minority, I am sensitive to political correctness, but you undercut your message by going overboard.       

Great show gentlemen.

 
The Fish video sort of reminds me of what I saw someone say about Mattrick when he was talking about how they have the Xbox 360 for people who don't have internet connections (prior to the DRM backpedalling), "He's right, but he's an asshole." Was Fish a jerk and out of line? Sure. From what I hear, he's apologized. The essence of what he was saying, though, is right and everyone else in the video went on to explain it in more pleasant terms.

That being said, I find the whole "I'm taking my ball and going home" thing hilarious. He's obviously (as you guys said on the podcast) too self-absorbed to ignore what people say about him and he takes it way too personally while claiming otherwise. I don't give a crap if Fez 2 ever gets made--the first one wasn't that great and a sequel isn't exactly "revolutionary indie game-making." I have no use for people that use the media when it's time to shill their latest game, but whine and moan about unfair treatment when the coverage isn't always favorable. He can't have it both ways.

 
Stryffe2004 said:
Cheapy's excitement over Flashpoint got me to order it. I was on the fence but the ringing endorsement push me over the edge. The DC animated movies have all been top notch. I wish that DC had used the Green Lantern: First Flight movie as a template for the live action movie. I still don't understand why they won't use the Wonder Woman animated movie as a template for a live action movie. it was phenomenal and the good will they would get for having a female lead would separate them from Marvel, who so far have shied away from having a female lead.

Speaking of female leads, I wonder how Frank Frazetta and Boris Vallejo would fare now if the Sorceress for Dragon's Crown is getting this kind of push back. Fantasy characters have historically had exaggerated proportions and those two were masters at fantasy character design, with plenty of scantily clad, well endowed women. We are getting into really dangerous territory if are going to start reducing the review score of a game because of the art style. Does Miranda's skin tight cat suit mean Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 should have lower scores? What about the vast cast of the Capcom fighters from Sagat to Morrigan to Cammy or the Mortal Kombatants who all wear skimpy outfits? As a minority, I am sensitive to political correctness, but you undercut your message by going overboard.

Great show gentlemen.
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You're missing the point; Miranda's skintight suit is one character, if every single female wore skintight outfits and stood in a way that you can see their ass AND titties at the same time, then it would be the same.
 
Wombat, I echo Cheapy's endorsement of Flashpoint. The movie does a far better job of fleshing out the Flashpoint world than the comic series did (all of the expansion was done in the various mini-series). One of the best (if not the best) DC Animated film IMO.

EDIT: Oh. And I want more mama Wombat. "Stop playing with your balls!"

EDIT #2 (Sorry, I'm listening and responding as I go): I have to agree with Wombat regarding a "system seller". I think everyone who thinks that Smash Bros, Mario Kart, etc are system sellers are overlooking the Gamecube which didn't get that much help from those games. So while I'm sure there are some people who bought Nintendo system for those games, I'm hard pressed to put them up there as "system sellers" on the scale others make them out to be.

 
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Though I think the last show you did express your views on gun control, this week you did a good job of putting it to rest. Controversial issues like that are always going to spawn people in both favors, and I somewhat agree that they would probably be better kept off the show - but at the same time I'm not forced to listen to the show. My wife and I don't see eye to eye on every issue as well, I don't expect to see the same view as you guys. We've all had different experiences which have an affect on how we view things.

 
Shipwreck was spot on. People offended by sexism in SRIV and Deagon's Crown is the same as calling playboy out for sexism. People need to know the differences.
 
ChaosTony said:
You're missing the point; Miranda's skintight suit is one character, if every single female wore skintight outfits and stood in a way that you can see their ass AND titties at the same time, then it would be the same.
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True, but it the sorceress is only one out of three female characters (I guess you could say the Amazon in a bikini is offensive, but Wonder Woman is an Amazon in a bikini as well, so that is another story). The elf is completely clothed. I guess my point is that if the character design is an issue in calculating the score, we are looking at a slippery slope. You can point it out as offensive to your sensibilities, but penalizing the score when it really has nothing to do with the game play or story makes me nervous.

 
KingWulfgar said:
The Fish video sort of reminds me of what I saw someone say about Mattrick when he was talking about how they have the Xbox 360 for people who don't have internet connections (prior to the DRM backpedalling), "He's right, but he's an asshole." Was Fish a jerk and out of line? Sure. From what I hear, he's apologized. The essence of what he was saying, though, is right and everyone else in the video went on to explain it in more pleasant terms.
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I don't even think he was right. Here's the thing, Japanese companies make great games, it's just that most of them aren't in your library because of the usual American console preference. It seems like from my observation that when the 360/PS3 era started, they saw how much budgets were getting and how everyone was playing (In their country) a lot of portables. If you look at the DS, PSP, and Wii you'll find a lot more Japanese developed games on their than on the 360 or PS3.

I bought a PS3 almost 2 years ago and have played some amazing Japanese stuff (Ni No Kuni, Valkyria Chronicles, 3D Dot Heroes). I did most of my gaming on the 360 this generation and the reason I think people (Like Phil) think Japanese games suck is because they just play 360/PC and like I said earlier Japanese Companies made this weird decision to not have big budgets on their games and have stuck to portable with the odd PS3 game.

It's just my opinion though,

 
I groaned at the title, after just listening to a podcast that blindsided me by circlejerking to Fish for a good hour; I was relieved you guys didn't linger on it for nearly as long.  So a guy who made one game decided not to make another one.  In other news, Hudson is still extinguished.

 
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Shipwreck nailed it. It's a money game. I think the $20 Bioshock pass is a response to take two's $30 season passes not selling as well. I'm wondering how much the GTA V season pass will be especially with next gen coming up.

Bioshock  pass is totally worth it. I'm top ranked on one of the boards for PS3. I think the fact that i've been playing it the past 2 days when I have around 20-30 unopened games in my backlog says it all. Great way to just jump into the game's combat without any hassles. The unique challenges are pretty good and give you a chance/reason to play around with gear settups. It basically removes the legwork of scrounging/collecting which make rpgs enjoyable so you can just enjoy the solid combat the game has.

I bought the season pass when the game released just because i loved everything they did with the game, but now i think they're gonna over deliver. The real deal is going to be returning to Rapture as Booker with new weapons/vigors. But at $5 it costs half as much as the sandwhich i'm eating right now. 

In fishman's defense, he did sound like a dick being blunt.  But if you watch the video posted above he goes on to give a really good explanation of why the most recent Zelda was such a disappointment compared to previous games. Every single secret chest is marked on the minimap with an icon and you're led from zone to zone in such a linear fashion. Those were my exact complaints.  It wasn't a bad game, but it felt like a chore compared to other games in the series which had more exploration. Plus collecting all the 20 heart pieces/hylian shield was completely pointless since the game was so easy. He wins internet points with me on that one. I'd check out his game if they released it on the Vita.

And yeah I totally agree with everyone on the milkage of Batman. This is the first one I don't have preordered.I'm gonna wait on a pricecut. They're burning me out on batman and i love batman.

 
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Glad to hear I wasn't the only not blown away by Fez. I was super excited when it was first previewed. Even after it was delayed for so long I remembered the (then) neat throwback to 8-bit graphics and cool concept of a 2D character discovering 3D. But then I played the demo and just plain didn't like it. The gaming press treated it like it was the second coming.

 
Cheapy, you did express an opinion on gun control last week. You said something to the effect of "in America you can use the real ones but not the realistic fake ones, in Japan it's the opposite. Seems like America has it backwards." I didn't care about the opinion, but it's kind of annoying listening to you guys spend several minutes talking about how you didn't express an opinion, and insinuating that everyone in the comments just wasn't listening, without bothering to go back and check.

 
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banodyne said:
Glad to hear I wasn't the only not blown away by Fez. I was super excited when it was first previewed. ... But then I played the demo and just plain didn't like it. The gaming press treated it like it was the second coming.
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The thing about Fez is that you really need to play through it at least once (ie get 32 cubes) before you understand why people like it.

It has some of the same ideas that Evoland has, where you "unlock" the game in pretty fundamental ways. And when you do this it makes it possible to understand the world in new ways and to solve new puzzles. There are also 4th wall breaking puzzles and stuff like that.

When I first looked at Fez I though it looked "cute" and seemed like a fun platformer. But when I had finished it the first time I have to say I was kind of blown away and was thinking that Phil Fish has obviously spent more time on making the world of Fez than most people do on their games. And there are sooooo many little details in the game that come back and mean new things as you progress.

It's kind of like the insanity effects in Eternal Darkness, or the Psycho Mantis fight in MGS.

Now I can understand that this is not everyones cup of tea, but it is a significantly deeper game than it first lets on. Personally I love the type of experiences (in games, movies or books) where you get a feeling that everything is a giant puzzle and nothing in the world is random or arbitrary.

Also, "Compare your life to me, and then kill yourself." is a quote from Bender in Futurama. Kind of harsh, but obviously a joke. And I'd much rather people like Marcus Beer quit the internet than people like Fish.

 
Seriously? You don't know what Heteronormativity \ Heteronormalcy means? You know what it means. It means the assumption of heterosexuality, or heterosexuality being the only sexuality represented. 

Different, but not that different than being a person of color, and being annoyed when you are never represented, or only represented as a criminal in games. Or being a woman and struggling to find a game where you are the lead.

 

Saints Row in the past though, has given you some options. I would take aim at a game like Lollipop Chainsaw. Giant pos that was. 

I was scared we were getting into rough territory again, haha, but you guys handled yourself ok. As long as Cheepy doesn't do his Mexican accent, I'm usually ok. Ugh.

Love you guys though, you ignorant douche bags. (Said with love) 

 
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CAG #333

2:00 Phil Fish and handling negative comments; Alternate Universe Evil Wombat on Twitter
11:45 Japan tour guide
15:45 Show Feedback
15:45 - Remote stuff
17:00 - Indie
19:45 - Politics/Gun control
21:30 Watch This
21:30 - Justice League: Flashpoint Paradox
27:45 New Releases
27:45 - Cloudberry Kingdom
30:45 - Bioshock Infinite DLC
31:45 - Xeno Clash 2
32:00 - Rise of the Triad
32:30 - Pixeljunk Monsters Ultimate HD
33:15 - Sir, You Are Being Hunted
34:30 Skulls of the Shogun
36:15 Nvidia Shield
41:15 Saints Row IV
42:45 The Swapper
46:00 Rogue Legacy
47:15 Arkham Origins Multiplayer announced
50:15 XboxOne headsets
52:00 Dev comments on the Kinect & headphones
59:30 WiiU sales, or lack thereof
1:07:00 Cagbag
1:07:00 - PS4 or WiiU for streaming
1:09:30 - Where are consoles built
1:13:00 Nvidia ads
1:15:00 - Gaming pc and waiting on a new console?
1:18:00 Saints Row/Dragon's Crown controversy
 
thrifty1 said:
In fishman's defense, he did sound like a dick being blunt. But if you watch the video posted above he goes on to give a really good explanation of why the most recent Zelda was such a disappointment compared to previous games. Every single secret chest is marked on the minimap with an icon and you're led from zone to zone in such a linear fashion. Those were my exact complaints. It wasn't a bad game, but it felt like a chore compared to other games in the series which had more exploration. Plus collecting all the 20 heart pieces/hylian shield was completely pointless since the game was so easy. He wins internet points with me on that one. I'd check out his game if they released it on the Vita.
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The problem with Fish and Blow's argument about Japanese games is that is based almost entirely on Zelda Skyward Sword. There are just as many Western games that spoonfeed everything to the player.

 
Curufinwe said:
The problem with Fish and Blow's argument about Japanese games is that is based almost entirely on Zelda Skyward Sword. There are just as many Western games that spoonfeed everything to the player.
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Nah... I think it's pretty much based on pretty much everything made by Nintendo. (At least since they released the Wii.)

In general my experience with Japanese games is that they are a bit "off". Sometimes that's part of the charm though. And sometimes it's just that the games are made for an audience that have different expectations.

Even a game as awesome as Dark/Demon's Soul has a lot of basic UI and user experience problems. I don't mean that the games are hard, that's fine. But there's a lot of stuff that is not explained well in the game and it's done in a way that seems obtuse by mistake. (Like how they present the different damage types for weapons with blunt/piercing etc.)

Many western developers are very good at presenting the games in an engaging way. You may still not like the game, but you can still learn from how they are made.

 
The Clash in the Clouds DLC is only $5, but apparently the two episodes of Burial at Sea will be $15 each. There will only be three total pieces of content, so the $20 Season Pass is quite a good discount.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/07/30/return-to-rapture-in-bioshock-infinite-burial-at-sea.aspx

Bioshock Infinite: Burial at Sea will be delivered in two parts, and will comprise the remaining content for the game’s season pass.

Bioshock Infinite: Burial at Sea Part One will be out later this year for $14.99.
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If Nintendo could have got the same Wii U hardware out in November 2011 that would have been better for them, but the reality of their R&D situation is that if they had relased a new console back then it would have been even more underpowered, the OS would have been even more of a mess, and it would have taken them even longer to get a selection of quality games made for it.

 
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Curufinwe said:
The Clash in the Clouds DLC is only $5, but apparently the two episodes of Burial at Sea will be $15 each. There will only be three total pieces of content, so the $20 Season Pass is quite a good discount.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/07/30/return-to-rapture-in-bioshock-infinite-burial-at-sea.aspx
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Thanks for that. I heard them talking about this and just cringed because it's another case of the CAGCast cast talking about something they don't know all the information on and spreading the wrong info instead of just saying "I don't know" or looking it up while they're chatting. Yeah, they say, "I think" and "I'm pretty sure" a lot, but it would be better if they just admitted they don't know, take a second to look it up, and come back to it later.

 
Assuming this theoretical Wii U which should of come out 2 years earlier also had a tablet I imagine it would have launched at an even higher price point due to higher tablet costs. It's the tablet that is killing them, that adds on so much extra cost that it limits their ability to lower the price. I believe they are already selling the console at a loss at $300/$350. Without the tablet, they probably could already be selling it at $200 even if it kept the original launch date.

Doesn't the vita have rear touch screen? I would assume it would (somewhat awkwardly) stand in for the missing buttons on the DS4

As far as system sellers, what turned around 3DS sales? Was it just the price drop or did a game like the first 3DS incarnation of Pokemon come out and spur sales?

 
As usual great show you guys! 

Regarding the dragons crown controversy, I think its a very complicated issue. Revision 3 and others hit it on the head when they said this game is the perfect example of a "shame" game. A game you enjoy but cannot play in front of others due to some of its content. I am so disappointed as I wanted to be able to buy this game.and play a great looking 2d d and d beat emup. But being 32, being married and having daughters 8 and 2 I cant buy this game due to its portrayal of women.

And its not just the art style. In the IGN live 2 hour play through towards the end there is a part where there a woman sprawled out and all the players put the cursors on her private parts and click vigorously. Damon and Colin nervously laugh it away and dont address the issue at all. In fact it seems like IGN is content to ignore the issue and pretend it doesnt exist to avoid twitter battles. Then there is polygon, they not only address it they went to war over it. Nothing like Arthur fighting tooth and nail with mysogenists pigs. Im sure they are losing readers, ads, and maybe even their jobs just to stand by their personal beliefs.

As for me, I think people have to let this go. Unfortunately the art direction turns this game into the spring breakers or hostel of the game industry. But I am happy that the game industry has matured where pieces of art like bioshock infinite and last of us are being produced, and because of that we will have to put up with games like this and leave it at that.

One question for you guys: Could you or would you play this in front of your wife? and or children?

Thanks guys, Love the show! (Sorry for the long response but wanted to express my view)

 
Hah, the video linked earlier has been pulled due to a copyright claim from BlinkWorks Media. But deleting something from the internet is like trying to remove pee from a pool, so it was easy to find another. Yeah, the reply was awful. Total dick move, but so were the cackling responses by the others on the panel. Who was the guy with glasses and a beard that was laughing like it was the funniest thing in the world? The funny thing is that I mostly agree. But to be so rude and callous, to be such an asshole to a guy who is clearly making a significant effort to be there and get Fish's opinion....I just can't imagine it.

I liked Fez, but after seeing that, I'll pass.

 
guardian_owl said:
Assuming this theoretical Wii U which should of come out 2 years earlier also had a tablet I imagine it would have launched at an even higher price point due to higher tablet costs. It's the tablet that is killing them, that adds on so much extra cost that it limits their ability to lower the price. I believe they are already selling the console at a loss at $300/$350. Without the tablet, they probably could already be selling it at $200 even if it kept the original launch date.

Doesn't the vita have rear touch screen? I would assume it would (somewhat awkwardly) stand in for the missing buttons on the DS4

As far as system sellers, what turned around 3DS sales? Was it just the price drop or did a game like the first 3DS incarnation of Pokemon come out and spur sales?
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It was the price drop that hugely increased sales on the 3DS, going from $250 to $170 saved it from the same fate the Wii U is currently suffering.

 
No ads on CAG?  Cheapy are you out of your damn mind?  You didn't even do a kickstarter!

 
CheapyD,

On show 332 after comparing gun policy in the US and Japan, you said: "Japan does a few things right.  They really got that right, with the whole gun thing.  They, now they gotta get the smoking thing going.  Gotta get rid of those cigarettes ".  

That does sound like a stance on gun control to me.  

After this, you also said: "Welcome to uhh Fox and Friends - the opposite of that".  

If you read it, what does it sound like to you?

 
If there ever was a game that sold consoles, I can only look to Monster Hunter and how it kept the PSP afloat that entire time. I did buy my 3DS for MH3U, though currently hanging on to it for ACNL. I feel Smash Brothers can push Wii U sales once its sure that its not brawl. 

Also I'm a bit put off by the amount of "I don't know's" going on. I'm sure no one really has that much time to follow everything, but I feel like there should be something to discuss. 

 
Shipwreck 2 minutes after the topic starts saying: "Oh, FLASHpoint" was the biggest laugh of the episode.

 
Curufinwe said:
The problem with Fish and Blow's argument about Japanese games is that is based almost entirely on Zelda Skyward Sword. There are just as many Western games that spoonfeed everything to the player.
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Yes I agree. They are cherry picking. I'd argue games like Muramasa and Dark Souls in particular could have used a little MORE explanation in terms of the stats, but not too much more because i still like figuring things out on my own. As long as it's in there somewhere for me to look up without hampering my experience if I don't need it.

Right now i'd say I find myself enjoying a 50/50 split of American and Japanese games with exception of Rockstar and Naughty dog who I think are in a class of their own since I play everything they put out.

Looking at some of my favorites from this gen:

Demon's souls/Dark Souls, Gravity rush, Metal gear solid, Muramasa, Dragon's crown, Lords of shadow, Soul sacrifice, Virtues last reward, Street Fighter from Japan. Three of my most anticipated games for gen 1.5 and next gen are Super Smash, Dark Souls 2 and The Evil Within by Japanese developers.

All that against Bioshock, God of War, DKC, Borderlands, Mortal Kombat, PS Allstars,XCOM, Infamous, Darksiders, Twisted Metal from the states. Then there's France with Dishonored, London with Batman. Sweden with Battlefield, Canada with Deus Ex and Denmark with Hitman. I'd say the majority of big budget games I've enjoyed are from Japan without looking into all the stuff I play off PSN. Then again I suppose I am biased for owning a Vita and PS3 as my main platform.

Japanese developers have yet to really crack the FPS genre. That's the only thing they really lack, but we already have so much of it elsewhere. They might be able to put a crazy spin on it though. I can't really think of a major AAA Japanese FPS.

But the thing I like about Japanese games is that they're like a balance of risky, borderline crazy gameplay and decent budgets. They've got bigger budgets than the self publishers yet they also take a good amount of risk in bringing gameplay that isn't already mainstream.

 
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You guys never said anything about Mars: War Logs on XBLA. It was launched last Friday? That's a weird release date. I heard nothing about this game. Flashpoint was a very good animated flick. I would have to agree with CheapD, I have seen them all and it's the best of the animated series so far.  

 
He's listening to it right now and he's hate masturbating!
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haaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha

On a side note, I don't see what being a public or private company has to do with being "Indie." Shouldn't it be about size of the company?

 
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bickle said:
Hah, the video linked earlier has been pulled due to a copyright claim from BlinkWorks Media. But deleting something from the internet is like trying to remove pee from a pool, so it was easy to find another. Yeah, the reply was awful. Total dick move, but so were the cackling responses by the others on the panel. Who was the guy with glasses and a beard that was laughing like it was the funniest thing in the world?
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Pretty sure that was Edmund McMillenn - one of the Super Meat Boy guys. I don't feel sorry for Phil Fish after seeing his behavior on Twitter.

I'm think they said Oliver Queen is about 26 in Arrow - not a young high school kid by any means.

I would buy a Wii U for a new Smash Bros., Wombat, but as of right now, I'm in no hurry to get one.

 
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