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CAGcast #333: So Long and Thanks for all the Fish, Phil

cagcast cheapyd wombat shipwreck podcast

#31 bickle   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   805 Posts   Joined 15.4 Years Ago  

Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:09 PM

CAG #333

2:00 Phil Fish and handling negative comments; Alternate Universe Evil Wombat on Twitter
11:45 Japan tour guide
15:45 Show Feedback
15:45 - Remote stuff
17:00 - Indie
19:45 - Politics/Gun control
21:30 Watch This
21:30 - Justice League: Flashpoint Paradox
27:45 New Releases
27:45 - Cloudberry Kingdom
30:45 - Bioshock Infinite DLC
31:45 - Xeno Clash 2
32:00 - Rise of the Triad
32:30 - Pixeljunk Monsters Ultimate HD
33:15 - Sir, You Are Being Hunted
34:30 Skulls of the Shogun
36:15 Nvidia Shield
41:15 Saints Row IV
42:45 The Swapper
46:00 Rogue Legacy
47:15 Arkham Origins Multiplayer announced
50:15 XboxOne headsets
52:00 Dev comments on the Kinect & headphones
59:30 WiiU sales, or lack thereof
1:07:00 Cagbag
1:07:00 - PS4 or WiiU for streaming
1:09:30 - Where are consoles built
1:13:00 Nvidia ads
1:15:00 - Gaming pc and waiting on a new console?
1:18:00 Saints Row/Dragon's Crown controversy

#32 Curufinwe   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1059 Posts   Joined 10.0 Years Ago  

Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:49 PM

In fishman's defense, he did sound like a dick being blunt.  But if you watch the video posted above he goes on to give a really good explanation of why the most recent Zelda was such a disappointment compared to previous games. Every single secret chest is marked on the minimap with an icon and you're led from zone to zone in such a linear fashion. Those were my exact complaints.  It wasn't a bad game, but it felt like a chore compared to other games in the series which had more exploration. Plus collecting all the 20 heart pieces/hylian shield was completely pointless since the game was so easy. He wins internet points with me on that one. I'd check out his game if they released it on the Vita.

 

The problem with Fish and Blow's argument about Japanese games is that is based almost entirely on Zelda Skyward Sword.  There are just as many Western games that spoonfeed everything to the player.



#33 Hast   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   26 Posts   Joined 11.8 Years Ago  

Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:22 PM

The problem with Fish and Blow's argument about Japanese games is that is based almost entirely on Zelda Skyward Sword.  There are just as many Western games that spoonfeed everything to the player.

 

Nah... I think it's pretty much based on pretty much everything made by Nintendo. (At least since they released the Wii.)

 

In general my experience with Japanese games is that they are a bit "off". Sometimes that's part of the charm though. And sometimes it's just that the games are made for an audience that have different expectations.

 

Even a game as awesome as Dark/Demon's Soul has a lot of basic UI and user experience problems. I don't mean that the games are hard, that's fine. But there's a lot of stuff that is not explained well in the game and it's done in a way that seems obtuse by mistake. (Like how they present the different damage types for weapons with blunt/piercing etc.)

 

Many western developers are very good at presenting the games in an engaging way. You may still not like the game, but you can still learn from how they are made.



#34 Curufinwe   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1059 Posts   Joined 10.0 Years Ago  

Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:57 PM

The Clash in the Clouds DLC is only $5, but apparently the two episodes of Burial at Sea will be $15 each.  There will only be three total pieces of content, so the $20 Season Pass is quite a good discount.

 

http://www.gameinfor...ial-at-sea.aspx

 

Bioshock Infinite: Burial at Sea will be delivered in two parts, and will comprise the remaining content for the game’s season pass.

Bioshock Infinite: Burial at Sea Part One will be out later this year for $14.99.


#35 Curufinwe   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1059 Posts   Joined 10.0 Years Ago  

Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:05 PM

If Nintendo could have got the same Wii U hardware out in November 2011 that would have been better for them, but the reality of their R&D situation is that if they had relased a new console back then it would have been even more underpowered, the OS would have been even more of a mess, and it would have taken them even longer to get a selection of quality games made for it.



#36 KingWulfgar   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   49 Posts   Joined 8.4 Years Ago  

KingWulfgar

Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:38 PM

The Clash in the Clouds DLC is only $5, but apparently the two episodes of Burial at Sea will be $15 each.  There will only be three total pieces of content, so the $20 Season Pass is quite a good discount.

 

http://www.gameinfor...ial-at-sea.aspx

 

Thanks for that. I heard them talking about this and just cringed because it's another case of the CAGCast cast talking about something they don't know all the information on and spreading the wrong info instead of just saying "I don't know" or looking it up while they're chatting. Yeah, they say, "I think" and "I'm pretty sure" a lot, but it would be better if they just admitted they don't know, take a second to look it up, and come back to it later.



#37 guardian_owl   Keeper of the CAG Shrine CAGiversary!   11152 Posts   Joined 14.9 Years Ago  

guardian_owl

Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:04 PM

Assuming this theoretical Wii U which should of come out 2 years earlier also had a tablet I imagine it would have launched at an even higher price point due to higher tablet costs. It's the tablet that is killing them, that adds on so much extra cost that it limits their ability to lower the price. I believe they are already selling the console at a loss at $300/$350. Without the tablet, they probably could already be selling it at $200 even if it kept the original launch date.

 

Doesn't the vita have rear touch screen? I would assume it would (somewhat awkwardly) stand in for the missing buttons on the DS4

 

As far as system sellers, what turned around 3DS sales? Was it just the price drop or did a game like the first 3DS incarnation of Pokemon come out and spur sales?



#38 MSUnman   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   67 Posts   Joined 15.3 Years Ago  

Posted 01 August 2013 - 10:54 PM

As usual great show you guys! 

 

Regarding the dragons crown controversy, I think its a very complicated issue. Revision 3 and others hit it on the head when they said this game is the perfect example of a "shame" game. A game you enjoy but cannot play in front of others due to some of its content. I am so disappointed as I wanted to be able to buy this game.and play a great looking 2d d and d beat emup. But being 32, being married and having daughters 8 and 2 I cant buy this game due to its portrayal of women.

 

And its not just the art style. In the IGN live 2 hour play through towards the end there is a part where there a woman sprawled out and all the players put the cursors on her private parts and click vigorously. Damon and Colin nervously laugh it away and dont address the issue at all. In fact it seems like IGN is content to ignore the issue and pretend it doesnt exist to avoid twitter battles. Then there is polygon, they not only address it they went to war over it. Nothing like Arthur fighting tooth and nail with mysogenists pigs. Im sure they are losing readers, ads, and maybe even their jobs just to stand by their personal beliefs.

 

As for me, I think people have to let this go. Unfortunately the art direction turns this game into the spring breakers or hostel of the game industry. But I am happy that the game industry has matured where pieces of art like bioshock infinite and last of us are being produced, and because of that we will have to put up with games like this and leave it at that.

 

One question for you guys: Could you or would you play this in front of your wife? and or children?

 

Thanks guys, Love the show! (Sorry for the long response but wanted to express my view)



#39 bickle   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   805 Posts   Joined 15.4 Years Ago  

Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:30 PM

Hah, the video linked earlier has been pulled due to a copyright claim from BlinkWorks Media. But deleting something from the internet is like trying to remove pee from a pool, so it was easy to find another. Yeah, the reply was awful. Total dick move, but so were the cackling responses by the others on the panel. Who was the guy with glasses and a beard that was laughing like it was the funniest thing in the world? The funny thing is that I mostly agree. But to be so rude and callous, to be such an asshole to a guy who is clearly making a significant effort to be there and get Fish's opinion....I just can't imagine it.

 

I liked Fez, but after seeing that, I'll pass.



#40 Quiet Jackal   CAG in Training CAGiversary!   37 Posts   Joined 6.8 Years Ago  

Quiet Jackal

Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:57 PM

Assuming this theoretical Wii U which should of come out 2 years earlier also had a tablet I imagine it would have launched at an even higher price point due to higher tablet costs. It's the tablet that is killing them, that adds on so much extra cost that it limits their ability to lower the price. I believe they are already selling the console at a loss at $300/$350. Without the tablet, they probably could already be selling it at $200 even if it kept the original launch date.

 

Doesn't the vita have rear touch screen? I would assume it would (somewhat awkwardly) stand in for the missing buttons on the DS4

 

As far as system sellers, what turned around 3DS sales? Was it just the price drop or did a game like the first 3DS incarnation of Pokemon come out and spur sales?

It was the price drop that hugely increased sales on the 3DS, going from $250 to $170 saved it from the same fate the Wii U is currently suffering.



#41 polly   Karma Policeman CAGiversary!   384 Posts   Joined 13.2 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:07 AM

No ads on CAG?  Cheapy are you out of your damn mind?  You didn't even do a kickstarter!



#42 MattZack   Virtue for the virtuous, signaling for others. CAGiversary!   1295 Posts   Joined 12.5 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:08 AM

CheapyD,

 

On show 332 after comparing gun policy in the US and Japan, you said: "Japan does a few things right.  They really got that right, with the whole gun thing.  They, now they gotta get the smoking thing going.  Gotta get rid of those cigarettes ".  

 

That does sound like a stance on gun control to me.  

 

After this, you also said: "Welcome to uhh Fox and Friends - the opposite of that".  

 

If you read it, what does it sound like to you?



#43 AsteriskCGY   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   11 Posts   Joined 7.7 Years Ago  

AsteriskCGY

Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:16 AM

If there ever was a game that sold consoles, I can only look to Monster Hunter and how it kept the PSP afloat that entire time. I did buy my 3DS for MH3U, though currently hanging on to it for ACNL. I feel Smash Brothers can push Wii U sales once its sure that its not brawl. 

 

Also I'm a bit put off by the amount of "I don't know's" going on. I'm sure no one really has that much time to follow everything, but I feel like there should be something to discuss. 



#44 Kerig   PSForsaken no longer! CAGiversary!   6195 Posts   Joined 13.9 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:32 AM

Shipwreck 2 minutes after the topic starts saying: "Oh, FLASHpoint" was the biggest laugh of the episode.



#45 thrifty1   Delicious Deal Stacker CAGiversary!   204 Posts   Joined 6.2 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:46 AM

The problem with Fish and Blow's argument about Japanese games is that is based almost entirely on Zelda Skyward Sword.  There are just as many Western games that spoonfeed everything to the player.

 

Yes I agree. They are cherry picking. I'd argue games like Muramasa and Dark Souls in particular could have used a little MORE explanation in terms of the stats, but not too much more because i still like figuring things out on my own. As long as it's in there somewhere for me to look up without hampering my experience if I don't need it.

 

Right now i'd say I find myself enjoying a 50/50 split of American and Japanese games with exception of Rockstar and Naughty dog who I think are in a class of their own since I play everything they put out. 

 

Looking at some of my favorites from this gen:

 

Demon's souls/Dark Souls, Gravity rush, Metal gear solid, Muramasa, Dragon's crown, Lords of shadow, Soul sacrifice, Virtues last reward, Street Fighter from Japan. Three of my most anticipated games for gen 1.5 and next gen are Super Smash, Dark Souls 2 and The Evil Within by Japanese developers. 

 

All that against Bioshock, God of War, DKC, Borderlands, Mortal Kombat, PS Allstars,XCOM, Infamous, Darksiders, Twisted Metal from the states. Then there's France with Dishonored, London with Batman. Sweden with Battlefield, Canada with Deus Ex and Denmark with Hitman. I'd say the majority of big budget games I've enjoyed are from Japan without looking into all the stuff I play off PSN. Then again I suppose I am biased for owning a Vita and PS3 as my main platform.

 

Japanese developers have yet to really crack the FPS genre. That's the only thing they really lack, but we already have so much of it elsewhere. They might be able to put a crazy spin on it though. I can't really think of a major AAA Japanese FPS. 

 

But the thing I like about Japanese games is that they're like a balance of risky, borderline crazy gameplay and decent budgets. They've got bigger budgets than the self publishers yet they also take a good amount of risk in bringing gameplay that isn't already mainstream. 



#46 VenomousMaximus   CAG Double Mega Ultra Lord CAG in Training   3 Posts   Joined 6.1 Years Ago  

VenomousMaximus

Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:56 AM

Hey Cheapy, have you played/ do you own Kentucky Route Zero? I think you would love it. 



#47 painkillah   Black Sheep CAGiversary!   99 Posts   Joined 12.9 Years Ago  

painkillah

Posted 02 August 2013 - 02:49 AM

You guys never said anything about Mars: War Logs on XBLA. It was launched last Friday? That's a weird release date. I heard nothing about this game. Flashpoint was a very good animated flick. I would have to agree with CheapD, I have seen them all and it's the best of the animated series so far.  



#48 warmonked   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   28 Posts   Joined 8.8 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:32 AM

 

He's listening to it right now and he's hate masturbating!

 

haaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha

 

 

On a side note, I don't see what being a public or private company has to do with being "Indie." Shouldn't it be about size of the company?



#49 apathylad   NeoCAG CAGiversary!   667 Posts   Joined 10.4 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:55 AM

Hah, the video linked earlier has been pulled due to a copyright claim from BlinkWorks Media. But deleting something from the internet is like trying to remove pee from a pool, so it was easy to find another. Yeah, the reply was awful. Total dick move, but so were the cackling responses by the others on the panel. Who was the guy with glasses and a beard that was laughing like it was the funniest thing in the world?

 

 

Pretty sure that was Edmund McMillenn - one of the Super Meat Boy guys. I don't feel sorry for Phil Fish after seeing his behavior on Twitter. 

 

I'm think they said Oliver Queen is about 26 in Arrow - not a young high school kid by any means.

 

I would buy a Wii U for a new Smash Bros., Wombat, but as of right now, I'm in no hurry to get one. 



#50 marcand   Boop beep. CAGiversary!   328 Posts   Joined 11.7 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 04:30 AM

Hey guys,

 

I have been listening for a couple of weeks now and I am hooked.  Thanks for talking about relevant topics in the gaming mainstream and throwing in tangents to movies, comics and other items that would interest a nerdy gamer like myself.

 

The dynamic between you three is pretty awesome.  The way you all jokingly try to take each other down in a reminds me of how good friends can strip away the superficiality of the social contract (all those perfunctory pleasantries) and get to the core of who each of you is.  Plainly stated, you all are fun to listen to.

 

Random thoughts about this show:

 

I was cheering when you talked about the Wii U.  I love that console, but I need more reasons to turn it on. Please, Nintendo, drop this price so I can have more of my friends buy it.  This should have been out 2 years ago.

 

Vita thoughts: I might get a Vita when they drop the price (Black Friday?) since the PlayStation Plus game giveaways are so awesome. I can wait on it since my 3DS gets a lot of play.

 

One last thing...  When do NPD numbers come out.  I really like it when you talk about the numbers.



#51 usickenme   I'm the a-hole CAGiversary!   2559 Posts   Joined 15.4 Years Ago  

usickenme

Posted 02 August 2013 - 05:32 AM

CheapyD,

 

On show 332 after comparing gun policy in the US and Japan, you said: "Japan does a few things right.  They really got that right, with the whole gun thing.  They, now they gotta get the smoking thing going.  Gotta get rid of those cigarettes ".  

 

That does sound like a stance on gun control to me.  

 

After this, you also said: "Welcome to uhh Fox and Friends - the opposite of that".  

 

If you read it, what does it sound like to you?

 

 

Sounds like whatever you want it to be. Could've also been a stance on realistic airsoft guns.

 

"The crazy thing is...is that I can go into a bar in Japan and just like get drunk and shoot these fucking realistic guns and have a great time but I can't buy of the real guns and in America, I can gobuy all the real guns but I can't buy any realistic toy guns...it seems fucked up somehow and confusing to me"

 

Cheapy forgot the one rule of US gun-nuttery. If you don't immediately denounce and call any gun control as communist, socialist, and throw in a Hitler reference, you hate freedom. 



#52 io   ... Super Moderators   24721 Posts   Joined 14.3 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 07:00 AM

As far as system sellers, what turned around 3DS sales? Was it just the price drop or did a game like the first 3DS incarnation of Pokemon come out and spur sales?

I don't think there has been a 3DS Pokémon game yet (at least not in the core franchise) - that's coming up soon.  It will be interesting to see if that spurs even more 3DS sales though.

 

It was the price drop that hugely increased sales on the 3DS, going from $250 to $170 saved it from the same fate the Wii U is currently suffering.

But I don't think that was all there was to it.  The price drop came nearly a year from launch and just about when the software started coming out.  I don't think you can point to any one title (though two of the earlier ones were Mario 3D World and Mario Kart 7), but the cumulative effect of a bunch of high-quality first-party games and now more third-party stuff has built up big momentum for the 3DS.  We may see the same thing here with the Wii U.  Certainly the software is coming (including Pikmin 3 in a few days), so we'll see where it goes from there.  If they don't see a big uptick in sales by January, then, yeah, they are in big trouble.  But I don't think it is the end of the world for them yet.

 

And I'll back up Shipwreck's anecdotal evidence of Mario Kart being a system seller.  Several times while perusing the game section at Fred Meyer or Target I saw people pick up Mario Kart and, incidentally, a Wii to go along with it.  Super Mario Galaxy and SSBB were also frequently in the mix.  The problem with the Wii U is that it doesn't have one of those types of games yet.  As said on the show, NSMB isn't a new enough property - not only is there already the Wii version but one also just came out for the 3DS when the Wii U launched.  Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros., and the new 3D Mario hopefully will push more sales in the next year+ (though I'm personally disappointed that the new Mario isn't more of a return to the Mario 64/Super Mario Sunshine type of game).  As much as I love Pikmin and think it deserves to be a system seller, it won't be.



#53 metalmat   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   57 Posts   Joined 12.6 Years Ago  

metalmat

Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:18 AM

Thanks for the movie recommendation Cheapy. I know very little about DC comics and have never watched any animated DC comic movies so this was nowhere on my radar. It was pretty awesome, I was very suprised by how much I liked it. The violence in the film was pretty shocking and it had a mature setting.

 

My one complaint is the amount of cameos, there were a ton of super heros/villans (most of which I know nothing about) that had very small parts in the film.

 

Anyways it is highly recommended and I think Shipwreck would like the film. This is coming from someone who does not follow comic books whatsoever.



#54 Stryffe2004   Overlord of the Obvious CAGiversary!   1090 Posts   Joined 15.3 Years Ago  

Stryffe2004

Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:13 PM

Watched Flashpoint last night.  I agree that it is the best of the DC movies.  BTW Mars: War Logs definitely deserves some love.  it is a little rough around the edges, but surprisingly engaging.  It is an action RPG set on Mars.  Plays a bit like Mass Effect, but with a focus on melee rather than ranged combat.  You control one character but can get party members.  There is a skill tree, crafting system and spec system (for lack of a better term).  I like that it is not a fantasy setting.  Try the demo.  It's free.



#55 Curufinwe   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1059 Posts   Joined 10.0 Years Ago  

Posted 02 August 2013 - 02:23 PM

Thanks for that. I heard them talking about this and just cringed because it's another case of the CAGCast cast talking about something they don't know all the information on and spreading the wrong info instead of just saying "I don't know" or looking it up while they're chatting. Yeah, they say, "I think" and "I'm pretty sure" a lot, but it would be better if they just admitted they don't know, take a second to look it up, and come back to it later.

 

It's a pretty interesting situation from the cheap gamer perspective because a lot of people who bought the season pass for $20 back in March were pissed off there had been no information about what the DLC would be until this week.  And then they were mad that the first DLC was wave-based arena combat.

 

But then they realized they would get the two Burial at Sea story-driven episodes which will cost $30 on their own, which is a pretty good deal even if you never play Clash in the Clouds.



#56 KingWulfgar   CAG Veteran CAGiversary!   49 Posts   Joined 8.4 Years Ago  

KingWulfgar

Posted 02 August 2013 - 02:46 PM

But then they realized they would get the two Burial at Sea story-driven episodes which will cost $30 on their own, which is a pretty good deal even if you never play Clash in the Clouds.

 

I agree with you. Honestly, I feel like most of the anger was unwarranted, but seems like lately gamers find the need to always be angry at something. We (as a group of consumers) have never had it better but we never seem happy.



#57 Tankcore   Unmotivated CAG CAG in Training   10 Posts   Joined 6.1 Years Ago  

Tankcore

Posted 02 August 2013 - 03:09 PM

With regards to my feedback last week, Cheapy stated after guns were banned in Japan and you could, therefore, get great airsoft guns, that; "this is where Japan gets it right"  or something to that effect.  He could have been talking about airsoft only, but I took it as covering the topic as a whole.

 

I don't mind the confusion though, it just fuels my hate-masturbation.  Thanks to Wombat for that, I laughed a good bit at that one.



#58 WinkyEmoticon  

WinkyEmoticon

Posted 03 August 2013 - 02:25 AM

"complaining about sexism in video games is like complaining about sexism in Playboy"

 

Maybe Shipwreck would like to expound on this brilliant analogy.  Personally I don't feel threatened by somebody criticizing my favorite hobby when the criticisms are valid.  



#59 MattZack   Virtue for the virtuous, signaling for others. CAGiversary!   1295 Posts   Joined 12.5 Years Ago  

Posted 03 August 2013 - 02:45 AM

Sounds like whatever you want it to be. Could've also been a stance on realistic airsoft guns.

 

"The crazy thing is...is that I can go into a bar in Japan and just like get drunk and shoot these fucking realistic guns and have a great time but I can't buy of the real guns and in America, I can gobuy all the real guns but I can't buy any realistic toy guns...it seems fucked up somehow and confusing to me"

 

Cheapy forgot the one rule of US gun-nuttery. If you don't immediately denounce and call any gun control as communist, socialist, and throw in a Hitler reference, you hate freedom. 

 

I agree - it could be either.  If that is true, Cheapy should not be surprised at the multiple posts in the last show thread.  It is not clear what he meant and that is the point of my post.

 

As for inferring that the other posters and I are "US gun-nuttery".  It is a convincing appeal to ridicule argument and just as fallacious as the rest of the post after it.

 

I guess I forgot the one rule of the internet.  Even if the other person in the thread can see your point and agrees that something could be seen in more than one way, that won't stop him or her from being a douche about it.



#60 jbug617   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   599 Posts   Joined 8.2 Years Ago  

Posted 03 August 2013 - 04:51 AM

So how long before Phil Fish returns to the scene? My guess GDC next year where he will be showing Fez 2 behind close doors.

 

About Wii U, I think Nintendo should take their loss this generation and concentrate on the 3DS till they are ready to announce a more powerful console to compete with PS4 and Xbox One. Hopefully they will concentrate on online ready system.