CAGcast #342: is Not PS4 Compatible

CheapyD

CheapyD

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The gang discusses the latest facts and rumors surrounding the Xbox One and PS4 launches.  Also, we talk about games that are out now!

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I guess you can listen to Wombat's other podcast, Uninformed Opinions.
 

 
Historically, the most powerful system has not been a sure bet to win, but that's not because people don't want more powerful systems. It's because the weaker systems have historically had a price advantage and/or a time to market advantage. PS2 was on the market for 18 months before Xbox. PS1 had a similar advantage over N64. In the case of Xbox One versus PS4, it's not just that Xbox One is less powerful, it's also more expensive and launching at the same time. The most powerful system launching first and cheapest is unprecedented in the industry.

And no amount of time or development tools can close the gap. PS4 will always be more powerful and easier to develop for. Parity will not eventually emerge. Expecting that is like buying a Radeon 7770 hoping one day it will catch up to a Radeon 7870.

 
Nice discussion. Wombat should have stayed until the end, him talking in a demonic electronic voice would given the show Halloween flair.  ;)

I think that as developers get more and more comfortable with the tools and the consoles the games will look better and better. But honestly I don't care about the graphics that much; the story, characters and immersion is way more important to me. The Telltale Walking Dead game didn't have amazing graphics but it is one of my favorite games of this generation largely to its story and characters that I deeply cared about. I am a bit tired of the games with nice graphics like COD, Crysis and Battlefield who move you from set piece to set piece with a ridiculous story and no relatable characters.

There is a good article by a developer aout graphics and specs of Xbox and PS4: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-secret-developers-what-hardware-balance-actually-means-for-game-creators

 
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I think we need to wait and see about the XBOX One v. PS4 resolution debate.   I think what was missing is that the XBOX One has a hardware scaler that upscales to 1080p.  It may be a benefit to program at 720p and let the internal scaler upscale to 1080p.  I think it is too early to tell.  I can't take credit for this thought, I heard it on IGN Podcast Beyond.

Bottom line is that there may not be a true difference in the output at the end of the day.

 
Had to laugh around the 5 minute mark.  Love you Wombat, but you don't always have to follow up every kid story with a kid story of your own!  

 
Stryffe2004 said:
I think we need to wait and see about the XBOX One v. PS4 resolution debate. I think what was missing is that the XBOX One has a hardware scaler that upscales to 1080p. It may be a benefit to program at 720p and let the internal scaler upscale to 1080p. I think it is too early to tell. I can't take credit for this thought, I heard it on IGN Podcast Beyond.
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The PS4 also has a hardware scaler. All 7xxx series cards and APU's based on them have hardware scalers. But in the case of CoD Ghosts it doesn't need to use the scaler because it can push 125% more pixels than the Xbone can.

BradGrenz said:
In the case of Xbox One versus PS4, it's not just that Xbox One is less powerful, it's also more expensive and launching at the same time. The most powerful system launching first and cheapest is unprecedented in the industry.
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That's a very important point. People are also starting to realize that the "balance" narrative that has been pushed by Microsoft and its partners was a bunch of BS.

http://www.videogamer.com/features/article/pixelated_xbox_ones_720p_problem_is_the_biggest_deal-breaker_yet.html

 
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Amazing moment when Cheapy seemed to suddenly discover PS4 was cheaper and more powerful.

Disappointed that Wombat didn't ditch his preorder. It's time.
 
Microsoft has a better vision? Which vision is that? Because they've changed it about 15 times since the beginning of this year. Sony has always been games games games. And these shortsighted things like no mp3's reinforces that in a non-positive way.

And in regards to resolution, it's an overblown issue. The concern should be if it's more problematic to develop on the One like the PS3 was this gen. I heard on another podcast the esram (or whatever the One is using) has caused problems on the PC, and it's not shocking that similar problems are now occurring on the One. The resolution being one of them.

Cheapy, in regards to Pokemon online stuff, you are the first person I've heard actually complain about it. It's funny you mention streamlining, because everything I've heard, people have said it's become streamlined for those that haven't Pokemon before.

 
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4thHorseman said:
Microsoft has a better vision? Which vision is that? Because they've changed it about 15 times since the beginning of this year. Sony has always been games games games. And these shortsighted things like no mp3's reinforces that in a non-positive way.
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Microsoft has never changed their vision of the Xbox One being an all-in-one entertainment device. Policies have shifted, the vision has not.

As you have stated, Sony has a "short-sighted" vision. It's the way their company has always operated. It's a culture thing.
 
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Shame Cheapy wasn't too fond of Pokemon, somehow it seems that Tai likes it though so that something at least. Cheapy's quirks about saving/online functionality and such are general Nintendo quirks that always plague their titles, but those are minor things compared to the quality of most of their games :)

Oh and LOL @ Wombat and his PC 

 
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shipwreck said:
Microsoft has never changed their vision of the Xbox One being an all-in-one entertainment device. Policies have shifted, the vision has not.

As you have stated, Sony has a "short-sighted" vision. It's the way their company has always operated. It's a culture thing.
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Except part of their vision was an all-digital future. That is not simply a policy change, that is altering a vision from their own short-sightedness after a huge backlash.

Not allowing people to play MP3's is hardly on the same level, yet Yoshida responded to it in less than 24 hours. Microsoft eventually responded to the backlash they received as well, but the backlash shouldn't have occurred in the first place since the rumors floating around for years should have stopped them from doing it in the first place if they cared enough to listen.

 
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CAG #342

2:00 Ship had a baby but failed to finish Zelda 2
4:45 Show Feedback
4:45 - Arrow & Agents of Shield
7:30 - TV stuff
21:00 PS4 launch games Cheapy and Ship are buying
25:45 Battlefield 4
30:30 Arkham Origins
38:15 New Releases
38:15 - WWE 2k14
44:15 - Lego Marvel
46:00 - The Stanley Parable & The Wombat Expirament
52:30 Typing of the Dead Overkill
54:45 Disney Infinity
58:00 PS4 Faq
1:10:00 Titanfall exclusivity
1:13:00 XBL currently a mess on XB1?
1:14:00 Pokemon
1:17:30 Nvidia Shield streaming update
 
Cheapy was talking about the destruction being stepped up in BF4... yeah, it is on a larger scale, but I wonder if he ever played Bad Company 2. In BC2, about 90% of the buildings were completely destructible. There were areas of maps where you could just completely level all of the buildings. They toned it down by a LOT in BF3 for some reason, where there was only like 1 building per map that you could destroy, IF at all. So compared to BF3, yes, BF4's destruction is way more intense. But it's really just more of a return of BC2 but on a larger scale...

Pokémon has always been about manually saving. I would argue that it's good that Tai is (hopefully) learning to save manually. The lesson transfers over to word documents for school and stuff, since if you don't save that regularly, you can screw yourself over. It sucks to learn like that, but that's life. And you made the description of the Mystery Gift more complicated than it actually is - you don't have to connect to the Internet once you did the first time and the girl shows up in the Pokémon Center. But I understand you were just trying to make it sound like a long, drawn-out process. It really isn't, but when you're a father who doesn't care about the game himself and just wants to give his son a game to play and not have issues (and have fun), then I can see it being one. (Not being insulting or snarky here - I can understand why it is frustrating to you. But I think you're being a little too hard on the game.)

Also, you said you bought the English version, but since the game was released worldwide simultaneously, you have the option to play in Japanese - even in copies bought in the US. But you have to choose it at the beginning, and can't change it. It's kind of a dumb limitation, but it provides more options than in the past where it was just one language.

 
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Sony has already started advertising the resolution difference.

935540_625365360835486_328747954_n.jpg


I think the difference between 720p and 108p is pretty obvious when it comes to games on TVs bigger than 32 inches.  With TV footage it's not as obvious because footage captured from reality has perfect anti-aliasing, motion blur, and depth of field because you are capturing actual light.

Games have to build everything from textures, geometry and shaders and how accurate that image is depends on the native rendering resolution being used.

 
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After the Xbox One reveal and E3, I pretty much decided that Microsoft's vision of the future was not for me. I'm generally sick of Microsoft's crap, so I'm going to be dealing with Sony's crap from now on. At the very least I won't have to spend an extra $100 for a useless accessory and their TV stuff is useless to me since I stopped using old school television 4+ years ago. 

 
Good show guys! 

By the way, you guys seem a little confused about how HDTVs and HD signals work.

720 = 1280 x 720 pixels

1080 = 1920 x 1080 pixels

i = interlaced, i.e. TV refreshes every other line at 60 Hz (frames per second), meaning the entire image essentially changes at 30 Hz.

p = progressive, ie. all lines refresh at 60 Hz.

Every TV has a native resolution.  So Wombat your TV is either 720p or 1080i, but not both.  It may have  been advertised as supporting both. But really it's just downscaling/upscaling whatever signal it receives to match the resolution and frequency that is 'native' to your TV. Most people think progressives scan is more important for video quality than higher resolution (i.e. 1080p > 720p > 1080i).  

As for football.... no broadcast channels are in 1080p!!  So it depends what channel you're watching actually!

ESPN, Fox are in 720p

NBC, CBS are in 1080i

So your TV actually just takes whatever it's given and forces it to fit the native resolution of your TV or monitor.  The 720p/1080i formats will look best on TVs with their native resolution.  But 1080p is the best catchall, because images will look better upscaled than they would downscaled. Supposedly your screen needs to be pretty big and you have to sit pretty close to tell the difference between 720 and 1080p.  For example cnet ran a study a while back and determine that for a 42" screen most people would have to sit within 6 ft.

Now back to games!  All the new consoles will spit out an image in 1080p, but what's important is what the actual graphics are rendered at.  An analogous comparison would be an upscaled DVD (which is 480p data originally, and they just interpolate the pixels inbetween) versus a bluray which is typically 1080p data.  So the developers are playing a little trick where they pick a resolution (like 900p) that's in between the most common resolutions and upscale/downscale to meet your TVs resolution. This is obviously much less computationally intensive than rendering at 1080p, and looks reasonably good at either resolution.

 
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One of the last three of Uniformed Opinions had Wombat's computer screwing up. Can't remember which one since I just went through each one back to back.

 
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Isn't
Graviton
a pretty big deal in the comics? He was a non-Avenger movie reference alluded to in early episode of Agents of SHIELD.

 
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dubbfoolio said:
For example cnet ran a study a while back and determine that for a 42" screen most people would have to sit within 6 ft.
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Here's another write-up on how much the resolution may or may not matter depending on your tv setup: http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

I don't think most people (ie the avg. consumer) will be persuaded by a higher resolution on one console or the other because they won't even know about it when they pick their game. I think things like console price and exclusive are much more likely to pull someone to one console or the other.

It is a nice bullet point to have though.

I've heard lots of complaints from new players of the new pokemon games that there really is no direction on how to play. It's pretty sad to see something like that in a nintendo game when their games in general are usually pretty intuitive. Considering it seems that they've simplified/optimized a lot of the game play to attract new players, you'd think they'd include a thick manual or an optional tutorial in-game.

The ps4 faq is a little disappointing and surprising. I do appreciate their candor though in putting all this out now and not leaving it for people to discover later.

Being able to switch internal hard drives is great, but being able to just plug in an external would be even better. Just require external drives to have usb 3.0. If it can't run a game over 3.0, then just have it function as limited extra storage and include an easy to use function to move games in-between the internal and external drives.

Not having mp3 playback is just... I mean, really? Is there anything digital now-a-days that doesn't support mp3s? And to add to this it can't even play back cds. Not that I expect many would use this, but I'm sure that means you can't rip your cds to your system either. You know, since you can't copy your mp3s rips over...

Speaking of mp3s:

Will I be able to play MP3s on PS4?
No*.
*We appreciate your feedback and are exploring possibilities.
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I wonder when that changed?

I think it's interesting that the ps4 only supports hdmi out. Time to upgrade your tv or get some adapters if you don't have a tv with it. I'm sure this won't affect most consumers, but I still find it an interesting requirement to make for the system.

I've only seen the first episode of Shield and wasn't too impressed. Hopefully it gets better whenever I decide to catch up. I'm guessing there are two reasons we don't see any callbacks to known marvel properties, first: they want to stand on their own feet and second: marvel probably put a lot of restrictions on who they could use and what they could mention. DC properties outside the comics always seem to be more open to using their expanded universes compared to most marvel productions which seem more limited when it comes to referencing other series, having cameos and so on.

 
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I don't understand the problem with saving. Did you really need to go online to figure out that pressing X would take you menu where you could find the option to save. You could have figured that out just by pressing random buttons.

 
they are marketing that it's 1080p/60fps on the PS4. i forget which country it was, but they put a huge sign up advertising it. it's a pretty big advantage.

1080p is sooo much better than 1080i. I record with the hauppauge which needs to go through component cables in 1080i and the xmb looks lot more blurry than 1080p but you don't really notice it in games. most games on the ps3 were 720p. you should definitely get a tv capable of 1080p at least for next gen.

i'm not getting either.

1. the games don't appeal to me

2. the networks won't fully be ready until 2014 with things like gaiki

3. launch games like driveclub and watchdogs are getting delayed. they wanted to delay battlefield too.

4.loads and loads of ps3 and vita games to play before my ps plus sub runs out

I'm pretty heavily invested into the Sony brand. They make quality devices. But I will wait for a good bundle deal and to see what the Steambox brings to the equation. I'm mostly excited for PS3 games like Dark Souls 2 and GTA Online more than anything else. Or this would be a good time to take a break entirely with gaming and use the time for something more productive.

 
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With all this resolution talk, I want to know how close people sit to big TVs when playing games?  I am about 11 feet away from my 50".  At that distance on that size TV, I don't think the 1080p vs 720p debate even matters.  Distance from your TV matters, not just the resolution.  If you sit right next to it like a computer monitor, then the resolution matters much more since your eyes can actually discern the change in resolution.  Also, has anyone seen a 4K tv and compared it to a 1080p set and been able to tell the difference if you are not super close?

Here is a article about this with a nice graph:

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

I used something similar when picking out my TV, but turned out that I just purchased the max size that would fit in a particular spot on my wall.

 
shipwreck said:
Microsoft has never changed their vision of the Xbox One being an all-in-one entertainment device. Policies have shifted, the vision has not.

As you have stated, Sony has a "short-sighted" vision. It's the way their company has always operated. It's a culture thing.
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Both have visions, Microsoft's is broader, but it's presumptuous to say it is either better, or stronger. Sony's vision was to create the strongest gaming platform with modern social features and unencumbered access to incredibly popular streaming media services. To that end they have built a best in class machine. Microsoft's vision was to be your all in one entertainment solution, and yet it is riddle with compromises to that vision, including reliance on an unproven HDMI pass-through as a half measure solution to providing TV functions, while also providing weak gaming performance. So far Sony's message has resonated far better with the hardcore who will drive sales for the first year, and they have plenty of time to broaden their appear down the line, just like they did with the first 3 PlayStations. And frankly, given Sony's immense success in this industry it's insulting to describe them as culturally "short-sighted". They have pioneered polygonal 3D, optical formats, parallel computing, cloud streaming, content portability and a subscription game discovery service. Granted they haven't revolutionized dashboard advertising or making you pay twice to use Netflix, but nobody's perfect.

Covnam said:
I think it's interesting that the ps4 only supports hdmi out. Time to upgrade your tv or get some adapters if you don't have a tv with it. I'm sure this won't affect most consumers, but I still find it an interesting requirement to make for the system.
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They closed the analog loophole for Bluray players back in 2010. Both PS4 and Xbox One only have HDMI out with an option for audio over optical. HDMI ports have been standard on HDTVs for about ten years now. If your TV is older than that you're probably an early adopter, in which case you've probably replaced your old CRT projection set with a flatscreen by now. If not, 40 inch 1080p sets are $300 at Walmart. Maybe buy one of those and get a next gen console later.

 
shipwreck said:
Microsoft has never changed their vision of the Xbox One being an all-in-one entertainment device. Policies have shifted, the vision has not.

As you have stated, Sony has a "short-sighted" vision. It's the way their company has always operated. It's a culture thing.
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I am sure you are all reasonable people but you too often come off as microsoft apologists,,,

 
Man, for as much as Cheapy tells Tai stories on the show, he sure wanted to usher the conversation away from Shipwreck's newborn ASAP.

 
Great show guys, good to have the whole gang back together.

I just finished Arkham Origins last night.  I had a really good time with it, even if there might be some glitches/issues. 

 
I just don't think we can judge these console's until they are actually out. I know it's close but we still have no clue what they actually do or are like. I have not pre ordered either of them. I am taking a wait and see approach to it and actually there are no launch games I am even remotely interested in playing that I cannot play on my current gen console.

 
MattZack said:
With all this resolution talk, I want to know how close people sit to big TVs when playing games? I am about 11 feet away from my 50". At that distance on that size TV, I don't think the 1080p vs 720p debate even matters. Distance from your TV matters, not just the resolution. If you sit right next to it like a computer monitor, then the resolution matters much more since your eyes can actually discern the change in resolution. Also, has anyone seen a 4K tv and compared it to a 1080p set and been able to tell the difference if you are not super close?

Here is a article about this with a nice graph:

http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

I used something similar when picking out my TV, but turned out that I just purchased the max size that would fit in a particular spot on my wall.
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Native 1080p versus 720p is a lot more noticeable on games than on movies or TV shows.

 
As someone who is buying both new systems, I've just pre-ordered BF4 for Xbox One. Resolution is important but in games, many other factors can come in to play. Here are a few of my reasons for going X1:

Network - Xbox Live has always been better/more reliable for online games. Add the asynchronous match making where I can be playing or watching something else while searching for a BF4 match, and the X1 version wins out.

Community - I'm not only factoring in existing friends. I think Microsoft's matchmaking system for Xbox One has a ton of potential to keep from playing with griefers.

Kinect - There are options for head tracking, lean tracking, and voice commands using Kinect. I haven't seen anything about the PS Camera being implemented. 

Controller - I'm an asymmetrical stick shooter guy for one. Also, I play inverted and the 360's universal control setup made playing lots of different games very easy for me.

 
I really don't think the no mp3s/cd at launch is a huge deal, Granted, no one is going to pay for that stupid Sony music service, but I would be surprised if it isn't patched in within a year.

 
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Disappointed to hear Ship's lack of interest in Knack. I thought he'd be the one looking out for quieter adventure games, reminiscent of something like Majin and the Forsaken Kingdom. Kameo was my favorite launch title of the last gen, and I have high hopes for this original IP.

 
meager said:
Disappointed to hear Ship's lack of interest in Knack. I thought he'd be the one looking out for quieter adventure games, reminiscent of something like Majin and the Forsaken Kingdom. Kameo was my favorite launch title of the last gen, and I have high hopes for this original IP.
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I like games like that. Everything about Knack makes me cringe though.
 
RiceQuakes said:
What exactly? Why?
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The art style does not appeal to me and the voice acting and dialogue in the videos I've seen make me think I will not enjoy the story. The gameplay does remind me a little of Kameo mixed with Ratchet & Clank, but I have played a lot of these kinds of games and this one just looks like I could pass.
 
I find it amazing that most people sill give Sony a pass for overselling the features on their console....AGAIN......and attack Microsoft for essentially doing the same thing when it comes down to it. 

Sony misleads the public on how much the PS4 can do, then pulls the rug out from everyone while Microsoft gets attacked for being anti-consumer and then actually gives people what they want and still are regarded as being evil. 

Also, I looked at the comparison videos of Battlefield 4 and really dont think one system looked better than the other. The Xbox looked brighter and more appealing overall while the PS4 looked better in the distance rendering items. 

 
What did Sony mislead the public about?

Microsoft are not giving us the ability to store and play mp3s on the Xbone, either.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/11/1/5056280/xbox-one-supports-dlna-compatibility-audio-cd-playback-microsoft

lowgear26 said:
Also, I looked at the comparison videos of Battlefield 4 and really dont think one system looked better than the other.
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But people who went to the BF4 event and saw the two versions running in person, not on a compressed youtube stream, did.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-resolutiongate-the-fallout

At last week's Battlefield 4 review event in Stockholm, we noted that the resolution change from one version to the next was obvious to many of the press in attendance, with some even suggesting on-site that the PS4 version was operating at native 1080p when its actual resolution was 1600x900. Battlefield 4 is a beautiful game generally, but if it has one Achilles' heel common to both next-gen platforms, it is the pixel-crawl and sub-pixel break-up derived from the post-AA technique. Xbox One has bigger pixels and fewer of them, so naturally the most obtrusive element of the presentation is more of an issue when displayed on the same screen.
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