CAGcast #346: Forza No Moreza

CheapyD

CheapyD

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The gang talks Xbox One initial impressions, Forza 5 Macro-transactions, RYSE, Assassins Creed IV, Need for Speed Rivals, and so much more!
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Show Linkage/Notes:
Intro No More Tears (Enough Is Enough) - Outro (Roadblock PSA)

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I guess you can listen to Wombat's other podcast, Uninformed Opinions.

CheapyD's Hebrew School Report Cards:







 
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Cheapy, I'm pretty sure the whole Forza thing is your fault. 

Microsoft obviously listens to the CAGcast, and every time you talk about a game with such an option you announce, "Yeah, so, I paid just to unlock everything." And they know you love your car porn, so they put this game out solely to see how much money they can wring out of you. You should play the game using only your starter car, and program your Drivatar to hunt down those Microsoft Studio secretaries.

Did nobody play Killer Instinct or did I doze off when it was talked about? I only heard it mentioned during the free-to-play-model discussion, but not in the games-played section. I know Wombat is still waiting for his loyalty background check to clear, but Ship didn't play it either?

 
meager said:
Did nobody play Killer Instinct or did I doze off when it was talked about? I only heard it mentioned during the free-to-play-model discussion, but not in the games-played section. I know Wombat is still waiting for his loyalty background check to clear, but Ship didn't play it either?
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We touched on it really briefly. I haven't played enough to really say much about it.

 
I beat RYSE over the weekend and thought it was a good game.  It isn't a great game, but it doesn't deserve the hate some seem to be giving it.

 
The whole Forza 5 thing is ridiculous.  I know they are trying to fix things now, but no way they make the game truly fair.  

I've been playing Need for Speed Rivals lately.  Every level you gain, you get a car unlocked.  That is how these games should work.  You shouldn't have to unlock a car and then buy it just to use.  

The whole thing with Forza where you still have to buy a car that you get from paid DLC is maybe the worst thing.  Pay $10 for a 5 pack of DLC cars and then they want you to buy those cars so you can drive them??  I know I got bit by this in Forza 4.  I think I bought some Ferrari pack because I really wanted to drive some car.  I then learn I need to buy the car in game to drive it.  F that!!  Didn't buy Forza 5 and from the sound of how awful it is, I'm glad.

I've heard that Gran Turismo 6 will have micro-transactions.  Wonder how they will do it.

 
It was funny how disappointed Shipwreck sounded about Ryse's low MetaCritic score. It reminded me of a lot of posts I've read from Knack fans who were similarly disappointed that most reviewers thought it was mediocre at best.
 
CheapyD was right to think he could suspend the console and resume the game instantly. That was one of the first things Sony talked about the PS4 doing in February. For some reason Suspend Mode didn't make it at launch. Suspending games in the console OS works like that at least, so you can switch to Netflix and come back right where you were in the game.

Sony statement if it matters:

"Some features will not be available at launch, such as “suspend/resume mode” which is a feature that keeps the PS4 system in a low power state and promptly takes users back to their game."

Surprised Shipwreck thought AC4 looked muddy over remote play. Sounds like a bandwidth issue, because it seemed super sharp when I tried it. There's an option to WiFi connect directly in the settings instead of going over your network WiFi if you want to give that a try.

 
Nearly everything about Forza 5 as a package is an insult, and I will not buy it even though the game feels so damn good. I played a demo, and driving that car with that new controller was exciting enough to spark a long dormant interest in spending serious time with a racer again. It's a damn shanda what they've done, and Cheapy is absolutely right that we have no choice but to vote with our wallets. The problem is that one person's voice at $60 for the game and $40 for a car is a lot louder than the silence of my closed wallet.

 
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I understand why folks are upset about Forza 5, but I'm not really upset by the changes. I'm going to sound like an apologist, but whatever, I enjoy the game. Not as much as 4 or Horizon, but still loving it.

I do think that the game's economy needed to be scaled back from Forza 4. Did they swing too far in that direction? I guess for some people, but I've always enjoyed the low end and retro leagues and appreciate the gradual progression. The in-game transactions sound kinda gross, but I haven't really noticed it because I've never considered buying an in-game car with tokens or paying for a way to get through the game faster. That's just not how I approach my games, so the fact that it's an option does bother me.

As far as having fewer tracks and cars than Forza 4, well... that was communicated from the beginning. Turn 10 might have flowered up their language when talking about that fact, but they certainly weren't outright hiding the fact that the game was smaller in scope.

So like everyone else I voted with my wallet. I bought the game and don't feel ripped off, and will only support the DLC that I like and think is worth buying. And just like I'm still waiting for a sale on Forza Horizon's Rally DLC, I will buy the content I want when I feel it's worth the money.

 
Usually people are excited to see what cars are in a game because they think that list represents what they'll have access to. Now since you aren't even gifted cars anymore by winning events along with the amount of time to grind being so extreme, it's more like a DLC list than a list of cars you get with the game. They even blocked cars with a limited list of rentals to choose from in the Free Mode, so you still can't mess around or test drive all the cars the game comes with unless you start opening your wallet.

Imagine down the road (ha) buying DLC car packs for this game and having to spend even more money for access to the cars you just paid for. The Weekend Confirmed podcast also got into the Forza problem pretty good from the start. 

 
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Great show as always.

Random thoughts:

- The Forza pricing model really turns me off.   They can charge whatever they want for the cars, I have little issue with that.  But changing the game structure to make people want to spend real money is really low.

What was the one quote Cheapy re-tweeted a few days back?  Each race gets you about 15,000 and a Ferrari is 9 million?  So 600 races for one car? 

Or use Ship's example.  70,000 in about an hour.  So over 100 hours to get that Ferrari.  And that's just the one car. 

- I agree with Wombat, I think the pricing model for KI is a great idea.  20 bucks for the full game is a good price, even w/o a story mode.  And if you're the type that will only play 1 or 2 characters you can get in for way less than that.

And the rumor is that they will rotate the free character, so it won't always be Jago.

They better get a true lobby system for that game though, not having that is a deal breaker.

- Arrow is rad, I'm glad you guys have been talking it up so much.  I might have ignored it otherwise.

I marathon'd season 1 this week off of Netflix, it's soooo good. 

 
24thdoor said:
And just like I'm still waiting for a sale on Forza Horizon's Rally DLC, I will buy the content I want when I feel it's worth the money.
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I'm with you here. I'm waiting on the DLC to be cut in half. It would be interesting to see how the Horizon DLC is doing still at full price. I bought F5, but I still like Horizon better. The reason I really like Horizon is because I'm not in menus half the time between races. I loved the open world and anxiously wait for the announcement of Horizon 2...or whatever it is named!

This might have been discussed in the podcast, as I haven't listened to it yet, but I would like to hear Cheapy's, and others, opinion on the two versions of Forza.
 
Forza 5 already lost me when they refused to support steering wheels used for Forza 3/4. I bought the Fanatec 911 Turbo S wheel for those games. I shouldn't even have had to buy that, but MS won't let devs support non-licensed USB devices. So I couldn't use my Logitech G25 on Forza.

So I buy that for a smooth $300+ and then MS (Turn 10) won't support it on XBox One so I'm supposed to buy another MS-specific wheel? Get over yourselves, guys. I can use the G25 on the PS3, PS2 and I'm sure the PS4 too.

You have out how to treat your customers instead of looking at how much of a ride you can take them for.

Beyond that, Forza 5 is a bit of a disappointment. MS taking out cars is one thing, if they don't want to do what GT5 did, and have some cars without finished interiors, there is little they can do. But taking out tracks is complete garbage. They say the tracks were to low-res and now are being laser scanned? Give me a break. Track geometry isn't something that changes in next-gen. The track layout is already modeled far finer than one part in 1080 or one part in 1920. Take the track layout you used before and put some new textures on and let us drive it. But no, MS would rather sell it to us.

This started before Forza 5. Forza 3 and 4 were big on the special editions. The special and VIP editions brought more cars and special listings in the marketplace. It really got to where the $80 edition was the norm.

It bothered me as a non-Gold member to see how much of Forza 4 was denied to me for not paying MS $60/year. I couldn't buy and sell cars in the auction house? How is that online play?

But most galling by far was that Turn 10 sent me free cars for buying Forza 4 early, and for playing it a lot. They'd send me an in-game message with the car, but I was unable to collect it because non-Gold members couldn't receive or send cars. So their message which was supposed to be something to make me feel good about the game and being a customer instead was a reminder (for two weeks until the message expired) that MS required I tithe to get the full experience.

 
After hearing about wombat setting up electronics, I hope he isn't one of those people that has a HDTV and doesn't know how to change the game console settings to HD and ends up playing in SD for many years until someone like me points it out. I've done this a couple times...

 
I commend Cheapy D for taking a strong stance when it comes to Forza Motorsport 5. The only voice you have in the corporate world comes from your wallet, and if you cave in to the hype and don't use it, you are a sucker.

I loved Forza 1 and 2 and played a ton of the second game online. Turn 10 love to crow about how they're a community-orientated developer, but when they received negative feedback for removing custom public lobbies from Forza 3 (and spinning bullshit about it in pre-release PR), their reaction was to completely erase their own feedback forum and ban a lot of its members. I've never bought any of their games since, and never will again. The current state of affairs does not surprise me.

 
Asparagus P Smell said:
I commend Cheapy D for taking a strong stance when it comes to Forza Motorsport 5. The only voice you have in the corporate world comes from your wallet, and if you cave in to the hype and don't use it, you are a sucker.
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And don't forget about social media. It does work. Hit them up at [twitter]forzamotorsport[/twitter] and let them know how you feel.

 
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thorbahn3 said:
After hearing about wombat setting up electronics, I hope he isn't one of those people that has a HDTV and doesn't know how to change the game console settings to HD and ends up playing in SD for many years until someone like me points it out. I've done this a couple times...
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Ha! No, I am not that bad. I have correct few people on that too.

 
Forza

Pizza

Forza

Pizza

Forza

Pizza

Forza

Pizza

Forza

Pizza

It's fort-za!  :whee:

I absolutely agree with Cheapy over the Forza 5 stuff though, that business model needs to be treated with the contempt it deserves. Not only is it a full price game, it's only available on a very expensive new bit of hardware so trying to gouge the customers for even more money is not on at all, especially at the prices they are asking.  Somebody ran the numbers over on NeoGAF and to buy every car in the game would cost $2200 if you buy in game currency at the best exchange rate (if you buy the more expensive packages you get more bang for your buck) or $2700 if you buy the in game currency at the worst exchange rate (ie, smaller packages) which is a ridiculous amount of money. Obviously you don't have to buy every car, or even any car, but that doesn't undermine the point that Microsoft and/or Turn10 really fucked up here.  I'll not be buying it on sheer principle. 

 
Wombat said:
Ha! No, I am not that bad. I have correct few people on that too.
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LOL. I've done that more than once over the years too. This summer it was my cousin who had his xbox 360 hooked up via RCA SD cables set to the 480i factory default 4:3 on his widescreen HDTV. Although we couldn't find a HDMI for him to use at least things looked a lot better when I reset his 360 to 16:9 wide 480i format.

 
MS has announced some steps they've taken to change Forza 5. These seem like relatively minor and temporary changes. They don't really address the heart of the issue. They don't even in fact apply to customers who didn't buy the limited or VIP editions. So basically, if you paid "only" $60 you're still in a micro/macrotransaction hell.

 
Shipwreck proved he is a very fair man in this episode.

As for Wombat, most of us aren't satisfied with 720p games, but since that's the resolution of your television anyway, this probably won't impact you very much. Glad to hear you're enjoying the new console.
 
Intensive microtransactions in a full-priced game is offensive. Didn't anyone learn a lesson from the backlash against Dead Space 3? I have a feeling all these microtransactions in first-party Xbox games (Forza 5, Crimson Dragon, Ryse, etc.) is the legacy of Don Mattrick. Remember, he pushed for Microsoft to buy Zynga. Luckily for shareholders that never happened because Zynga stock started tanking. After the E3 mess, he even resigned and became the CEO of that company. After his relatively recent departure maybe it was too late to alter these plans? Hopefully his successor, Julie Larson-Green, isn't so in love with the microtransactions business model.

 
I think the forza microtransactions thing is way overblown. The money is coming fast I can buy any car I want when I move to the next series. I don't see why people think they should be able to buy a end game car right off the bat. You couldn't in any forza made before. This is a caRPG. You don't get the best sword in final Fantasy at the beginning of the game either.
 
It was a crime that Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes was canceled so that Disney could produce in-house Avengers Assembled. That show is garbage.
 
hbktimf24 said:
I think the forza microtransactions thing is way overblown. The money is coming fast I can buy any car I want when I move to the next series. I don't see why people think they should be able to buy a end game car right off the bat. You couldn't in any forza made before. This is a caRPG. You don't get the best sword in final Fantasy at the beginning of the game either.
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Who's mad that you can't buy any car from the beginning?

Again, the issue is they removed part discounts and free car rewards while forcing an extreme amount of grind to get to the game content. These decisions weren't made to make your $60 game more fun or challenging, they're just lame paywalls to unfairly extract more money after you already bought the game.

Nothing wrong with a progression system, but it still has to be reasonable in giving people access to the content on the disc.

 
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Ehker said:
Who's mad that you can't buy any car from the beginning?

Again, the issue is they removed part discounts and free car rewards while forcing an extreme amount of grind to get to the game content. These decisions weren't made to make your $60 game more fun or challenging, they're just lame paywalls to unfairly extract more money after you already bought the game.

Nothing wrong with a progression system, but it still has to be reasonable in giving people access to the content on the disc.
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I'm only at around level 20, but this hasn't really been an issue for me at all. I have about 5 or 6 cars and 500,000 credits just waiting to be spent. If people don't like the idea of spending real money, only a handful of the most elite cars take that much time to acquire by simply playing the game. You get credits for EVERYTHING in this game.

Finish a race, get thousands of credits.

Turn off some assists, get more credits at the end of each race.

Increase your brand affinity, get more credits at the end of each race.

Increase your player level, get a large payout of credits.

Finish a series, get a large payout of credits.

Check your messages once a day, get a payout of credits from your Drivatar.

I don't know...it seems like this game is just dumping credits on me.

My biggest complaint about the game is the lack of tracks. Monaco and Nurburgring should be in every game like this.

In addition to Forza, I have played a lot of Powerstar Golf and Crimson Dragon. Both also have optional microtransactions, but I haven't once seen the point. You really don't need them for anything. The games don't feel ruined by microtransactions in the way that Plants vs. Zombies 2 does. In general, I don't like the idea of microtransactions in games that are $20 to $60, but I feel that Microsoft is being mostly reasonable with them. Sure, a $70 car is crazy, but I wouldn't buy it if it was $1. I actually want to play my $60 game, not just skip to the end.

Like I said, I'm only at around level 20, so maybe my experience will change, but it seems hard to believe with the way this game is throwing credits my way.

 
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1. Saying that the poor secretary will lose her job if we decide not to support a game like Forza, is rather like saying that the meth dealer's children will not have Christmas presents if we don't buy meth.

Suport the people and games that do the right thing (I'm a big Steam fan because of their prices) and then those companies will have more money to employ more secretaries.

2. I always hated games with IAPs. However I now have to admit that they can be done right. I give credit to PvZ 2 as I got loads of gameplay and didn't feel I needed to buy anything. And the same with my new time-killer -  Marvel Puzzle Quest on the iphone.

 
I really enjoy the remote play aspect of the vita, I too experience no lag at all.  It really does work for me, I can play some AC4 while the kids are watching netflix on the tv. One of my favorite features.

Oh and great show as always!

 
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trent82 said:
I'm only at around level 20, but this hasn't really been an issue for me at all. I have about 5 or 6 cars and 500,000 credits just waiting to be spent. If people don't like the idea of spending real money, only a handful of the most elite cars take that much time to acquire by simply playing the game. You get credits for EVERYTHING in this game.

Finish a race, get thousands of credits.

Turn off some assists, get more credits at the end of each race.

Increase your brand affinity, get more credits at the end of each race.

Increase your player level, get a large payout of credits.

Finish a series, get a large payout of credits.

Check your messages once a day, get a payout of credits from your Drivatar.

I don't know...it seems like this game is just dumping credits on me.

My biggest complaint about the game is the lack of tracks. Monaco and Nurburgring should be in every game like this.

In addition to Forza, I have played a lot of Powerstar Golf and Crimson Dragon. Both also have optional microtransactions, but I haven't once seen the point. You really don't need them for anything. The games don't feel ruined by microtransactions in the way that Plants vs. Zombies 2 does. In general, I don't like the idea of microtransactions in games that are $20 to $60, but I feel that Microsoft is being mostly reasonable with them. Sure, a $70 car is crazy, but I wouldn't buy it if it was $1. I actually want to play my $60 game, not just skip to the end.

Like I said, I'm only at around level 20, so maybe my experience will change, but it seems hard to believe with the way this game is throwing credits my way.
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I wonder how much of this is something that sounds bad until you play the game and money starts coming in. I find game journalist tend to over blow micro-transctions in games as odorous when in practice it is just fine. They are the kind of people who spend a small amount of time on a lot of games instead of focusing on a couple of games.

 
Ryse review worse then it probably should have because it's one of those game, yes I'm talking about a game with heavy repetition. Because the Ryse really has only one thing going for it, the combat, than reviewers who have to play the game in 2 days will be more sick of it compared to a more normal person who plays the game over a course of a week or two.

I like how Cheapy read one article and than decided to go at war with Forza for it. At least play the games a good amount to see for yourself. People in this forum who actually played this game say it is not that bad. I like Jeff Gerstmann's view point, feel cheated if you think the game does not have enough content for the price you paid. You can't really tell that if you don't play the game.

 
^^There's far more info on Forza than one article along with forums warning others how the game is setup. The Turn10 guys even did a temporary economy tweak along with an apology, although without really fixing it. This isn't a made up issue.

And regarding buy it anyway to find out for ourselves, I'm not following the logic. Ignore all warnings just to see that they're true for ourselves?

 
Ehker said:
Who's mad that you can't buy any car from the beginning?

Again, the issue is they removed part discounts and free car rewards while forcing an extreme amount of grind to get to the game content. These decisions weren't made to make your $60 game more fun or challenging, they're just lame paywalls to unfairly extract more money after you already bought the game.

Nothing wrong with a progression system, but it still has to be reasonable in giving people access to the content on the disc.
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I'm not having any issues getting the content I want in the game. And not getting free car argument is not really valid because most people just sold those cars instantly.
 
hbktimf24 said:
I'm not having any issues getting the content I want in the game. And not getting free car argument is not really valid because most people just sold those cars instantly.
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Which as a collector worked out great for me. Until my Gold expired and I couldn't use the auction house anymore.

Putting a lot of free/available cars in the game and a way to swap them made both those who wanted to sell the cars for money happy and the people who wanted to buy them cheaply.

So what was really wrong with that other than that it reduced MS' opportunities to sell you tokens?

 
BlueRock said:
Which as a collector worked out great for me. Until my Gold expired and I couldn't use the auction house anymore.

Putting a lot of free/available cars in the game and a way to swap them made both those who wanted to sell the cars for money happy and the people who wanted to buy them cheaply.

So what was really wrong with that other than that it reduced MS' opportunities to sell you tokens?
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The only reason I ever used the auction house was to get sweet paint job designs. You get all those for free now on any car you buy.
 
Wow, in a surprise move, CheapyD explains to us how the Xbox One UI is better than the PS4 one without even having used it. All this after months of telling listeners not to judge the consoles before they see them...

Baffling.

 
:rofl: 21:15

"The voice commands you mean?"

"Motion commands."

"What are the motion commands?"

"Oh so, yea, exactly, I had to watch a little video of this to be like woah I didn't know I could do that ! So if you take your hands, like say, take 2 hands out, if you're doin this on the..."

"...that's all I have..."

*Cheapy chuckle*

:rofl:

Thank you for all the shows over the years, guys. I am excited to listen every week because I find myself laughing out loud a lot.

 
FYI I am Forza Rich now....thank you Twitter Yellers!

I am level 40 and have 46 cars and 3.3M in the bank.  They gave me the 6M Lotus E21 F1 car for free as well.

I have played about 10 hours

 
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I so wanted to get this game as I'm a huge Forza fan, but with micro-transactions becoming the norm these days and people simply accepting it and paying for day-one DLC, the hobby I used to love has become more corporate-centric than consumer-friendly. Until the sheep that keep purchasing their 'addons' realize that they are only propagating and empowering these policies, the industry will continue to take advantage of consumers.

 
From what I hear about Forza, I find the Forza microtransactions far less terrible than Mass Effect 3 multiplayer packs. Both games, you can earn credits to afford the microtransaction content, the only difference is that in Mass Effect 3, it's a gamble as to what you receive. Which seems far more shitty, yet didn't receive as much protest as Forza received. I would rather know what I'm purchasing, even if *could* cost more, than to roll a dice and hope for something new and spend just as much for what I've received time and time again.

Not to diminish the lousiness of Forza's microtransactions, but it's been worse.

 
IMO the micro-transactions are not the problem with this game.

Negatives

When racing it doesnt tell you who is in front of you or behind you place wise.

No online Party lobbies.  Have fun trying to figure out how to get a 16 player race going with friends.

3-5 laps races are the longest ones.

No discounts on upgrading parts with the higher manufacturer affinity levels

When you were done with a race and waiting for others the game would go to replay mode and you could track results.  Now you have to pause it and your car drives off the road.

No cat and mouse or other fun modes

No gifting options

Only 12 tracks...missing some of the staple tracks from previous Forzas

No public custom lobbies

...there is more

 
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