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Minimum Wage....Yeeeehaaaa!


#1 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1010 Posts   Joined 9.0 Years Ago  

Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:06 AM

https://www.youtube....h?v=7KV8W2UiAuA

 

Pelosi at her finest.....

 

Anyway, who supports raising the minimum wage, and, if so, by how much?

 

PS: extra points if you know who sings the thread's title.



#2 Jruth   No trite shit crew gamer bro CAGiversary!   271 Posts   Joined 7.4 Years Ago  

Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:56 AM

I read a conservative's perspective on raising the minimum wage. My question would be why can't we couple that with tax cuts across the board? I don't trust bureaucracies with the confiscating and allocating of money. But I'm aware of the fact that capitalism's main critique is greed. They say raising the minimum wage would add a trifling 10 cents to your hamburger. But would put the extra money directly into employees pockets to buy goods and help the economy. Obama's bleeding heart efforts do not help or add to the economy. Or elevate the poor. If anything you can't accuse me of being closed minded or hard right.


Haven't you figured it out yet fanboys? Your mommy can't afford both consoles! Be grateful with what you got and shut the Fuck up.

 

 

                                                                                                                                             - starving African bro

 


#3 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9326 Posts   Joined 4.9 Years Ago  

Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:02 AM

You can give the working poor $50/hr but if they aren't spending that money wisely then what good would it do?



#4 acthechamp   CAG Champion CAGiversary!   666 Posts   Joined 4.7 Years Ago  

Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:28 AM

tl; dw


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#5 speedracer   Banned Banned   3735 Posts   Joined 11.8 Years Ago  

speedracer

Posted 14 January 2014 - 10:58 AM

You can give the working poor $50/hr but if they aren't spending that money wisely then what good would it do?

Well, they would spend it which generates economic activity on the whole $50. That's generally the critique (right or wrong, I'm not 100% sure) about taxes vs. dropping money buckets on the poor. The rich will save a large (certainly larger) portion than the poors, who will typically spend all of it. Ergo, giving it to the poors generates more economic activity, ergo jobs, ergo growth. 

 

Trickle up vs. trickle down. 

 

It's certainly better than the bond buying program which is a straight up cash transfer to stock owners who are most certainly NOT taking the money and spending it. 20%+ gains last year and I didn't spend a single penny. 

 

But hey, you can keep giving me free money that I'll spend in about 25 years. 

 

 

I read a conservative's perspective on raising the minimum wage. My question would be why can't we couple that with tax cuts across the board? I don't trust bureaucracies with the confiscating and allocating of money. But I'm aware of the fact that capitalism's main critique is greed. They say raising the minimum wage would add a trifling 10 cents to your hamburger. But would put the extra money directly into employees pockets to buy goods and help the economy. Obama's bleeding heart efforts do not help or add to the economy. Or elevate the poor. If anything you can't accuse me of being closed minded or hard right.

 

Rich people... I don't care about taxes because they're already low and I'm already getting a huge payout via the bond buying and it's tax free. There's no possible way you could give poors a better deal unless you doubled the minimum wage and even then, that would just be a push probably. 

 

If you had a million dollars in the market last year and were heavily in equities, you could reasonably have made a quarter of a million free and clear. I know an executive secretary at Exxon that cleared $400k in capital gains last year. Tax free until she touches it. And oh yea, capital gains tax is 15% because labor income is for poor people. 

 

Calling for tax cuts is missing the forest through the trees. 


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#6 UncleBob  

Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:17 PM

So, why not raise minimum wage to $50/hour?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#7 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:40 PM

So, why not raise minimum wage to $50/hour?

How many small business do you know that could afford to pay their employees $50/hour? Not every business out there makes millions of dollars of profit each year.

 

According to the Congressional Research Service there are roughly 3.6 million hourly workers earning at or below minimum wage. That number rises to 17 million hourly workers which earn less than $10 an hour. Can you imagine how many people earn under $50 an hour? My guess is roughly 80%-90% of the workforce earns less than $50/hour.


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#8 UncleBob  

Posted 14 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

...so, raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses? Who would have thought it.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#9 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 14 January 2014 - 02:50 PM

...so, raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses?

No, what I meant to say was that raising the minimum wage to $50/hr would force the majority of small businesses to go bankrupt. In a perfect world, raising the minimum wage a couple of dollars would undoubtedly hurt their bottom line but most "sound" businesses would have enough of a buffer to absorb such an increase without compromising the existence of the businesses itself. The wage increases could be offset through price increases, profits or productivity (leaner). 

 

That said, the truth of the matter is that a lot of business out there are struggling to keep their doors open so any such increase could shutter the doors for good.


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#10 speedracer   Banned Banned   3735 Posts   Joined 11.8 Years Ago  

speedracer

Posted 14 January 2014 - 05:55 PM

...so, raising the minimum wage hurts small businesses? Who would have thought it.

It's not that cut and dry and you know it. Stop being an asshole Bob.
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#11 UncleBob  

Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:56 PM

You're really free with calling me names... it's even more fun when you call me names for something that someone else VERY CLEARLY did and you won't even own up to that. But that's a different thread.

More to your point, you're right. It's much more complicated. Which is why these cries to increase the minimum wage are bunk.

But, let's play make-believe for a moment. Let's say we were going to raise minimum wage to $25/hour - but only for large businesses (let's not hang too hard on the exact definition of a "large" business. Let's say, any business that's required to provide health <s>care</s> insurance under the ACA). There. We provided for a large percentage of the "working poor" while protecting small businesses. Who supports this?
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#12 soonersfan60   Longing for retro CAG... CAGiversary!   3774 Posts   Joined 10.0 Years Ago  

soonersfan60

Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:54 PM

...raising the minimum wage a couple of dollars would undoubtedly hurt their bottom line but most "sound" businesses would have enough of a buffer to absorb such an increase without compromising the existence of the businesses itself.

If a business can "absorb" this without hurting it's bottom line, then it was not price competitive before (i.e., over-priced already) and would be out of business fairly soon anyway.



#13 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:31 PM

If a business can "absorb" this without hurting it's bottom line, then it was not price competitive before (i.e., over-priced already) and would be out of business fairly soon anyway.

You misread what I wrote. I stated that a wage increase would definitely hurt their bottom line but it shouldn't bankrupt them. A business being run on such thin margins that it can't afford a small wage increase is fundamentally flawed and will most likely fail anyhow.


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#14 mrsilkunderwear   Just Do It. CAGiversary!   1502 Posts   Joined 6.0 Years Ago  

mrsilkunderwear

Posted 15 January 2014 - 12:55 AM

So Amazon is flawed and will most likely fail?



#15 UncleBob  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:11 AM

"Small wage increase"?

From $7.25/hour to $10.10/hour.

A 39.31% increase. On Labor. The primary expense of virtually any business.

"Small"
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#16 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1010 Posts   Joined 9.0 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:15 PM

Well, they would spend it which generates economic activity on the whole $50. That's generally the critique (right or wrong, I'm not 100% sure) about taxes vs. dropping money buckets on the poor. The rich will save a large (certainly larger) portion than the poors, who will typically spend all of it. Ergo, giving it to the poors generates more economic activity, ergo jobs, ergo growth. 

 

Trickle up vs. trickle down. 

 

It's certainly better than the bond buying program which is a straight up cash transfer to stock owners who are most certainly NOT taking the money and spending it. 20%+ gains last year and I didn't spend a single penny. 

 

But hey, you can keep giving me free money that I'll spend in about 25 years. 

 

 
 

Rich people... I don't care about taxes because they're already low and I'm already getting a huge payout via the bond buying and it's tax free. There's no possible way you could give poors a better deal unless you doubled the minimum wage and even then, that would just be a push probably. 

 

If you had a million dollars in the market last year and were heavily in equities, you could reasonably have made a quarter of a million free and clear. I know an executive secretary at Exxon that cleared $400k in capital gains last year. Tax free until she touches it. And oh yea, capital gains tax is 15% because labor income is for poor people. 

 

Calling for tax cuts is missing the forest through the trees. 

So you agree that the gov't mucking about with the economic system has far reaching, unintended, and unfair consequences? Aren't a lot of union contract wages tied to the minimum wage? They are guaranteed to make a certain amount ABOVE minimum wage, so of course they would love to see an increase. Would everybody see a similar increase? Would firefighters who make $14/hour see anymore money if low skilled burger flippers suddenly started making $10/hour?  We want to make everyone "equal" by raising the lowest common denominator versus promoting continuing education, hard work, and smart personal decisions. "You can't feed your three kids and wife on minimum wage. We need to change the system." VS "You are an idiot for having three kids while working at a fast food joint." Let's incentivize bad behavior and punish smart behavior. What results do we expect?



#17 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:42 PM

So Amazon is flawed and will most likely fail?

Amazon pays their starting employees $12/hour. So, they are not affected by the proposed increase in minimum wage. They already figured out that their employees are worth more to them than $7.25/hour. 


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#18 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:16 PM

"Small wage increase"?

From $7.25/hour to $10.10/hour.

A 39.31% increase. On Labor. The primary expense of virtually any business.

"Small"

It's actually more like a 60% increase, if you account for payroll tax, ss etc. However, monetarily speaking it is only a few dollars more and relatively small when compared to the "proposed" $25 or $50 increase. There is something inherently wrong when an individual works full time and maybe holds down a couple of part time jobs and is still below the poverty line.

 

This is why I take issue with the proposed minimum wage increase as it still doesn't move these folks above the poverty line. Last I checked, an individual needs to make $11.33 an hour to be at or above the poverty line. If you are pinning the success of your business on paying people minimum wage you are doing it wrong.


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#19 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9326 Posts   Joined 4.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:17 PM

It's actually more like a 60% increase, if you account for payroll tax, ss etc. However, monetarily speaking it is only a few dollars more and relatively small when compared to the "proposed" $25 or $50 increase. There is something inherently wrong when an individual works full time and maybe holds down a couple of part time jobs and is still below the poverty line.

 

This is why I take issue with the proposed minimum wage increase as it still doesn't move these folks above the poverty line. Last I checked, an individual needs to make $11.33 an hour to be at or above the poverty line. If you are pinning the success of your business on paying people minimum wage you are doing it wrong.

~ $11/hr x 2,000 working hours in a year is what $22,000?

Only in America would we consider that "poverty".



#20 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1010 Posts   Joined 9.0 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:19 PM

Amazon pays their starting employees $12/hour. So, they are not affected by the proposed increase in minimum wage. They already figured out that their employees are worth more to them than $7.25/hour. 

So employees should be paid based on the value that they offer a company? Minimum wage decreases job opportunities because young, unskilled workers often can not produce $10 of value, let alone $7.25 in value for small business. My granddad retired from the Ford plant. He tells me of incompetent employees who couldn't perform on the manufacturing line, yet couldn't be fired because of the union. They were paid $22/hour to basically push a broom while the other workers provided the value to the company. Surely you are not in favor of that practice?



#21 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1010 Posts   Joined 9.0 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:27 PM

It's actually more like a 60% increase, if you account for payroll tax, ss etc. However, monetarily speaking it is only a few dollars more and relatively small when compared to the "proposed" $25 or $50 increase. There is something inherently wrong when an individual works full time and maybe holds down a couple of part time jobs and is still below the poverty line.

 

This is why I take issue with the proposed minimum wage increase as it still doesn't move these folks above the poverty line. Last I checked, an individual needs to make $11.33 an hour to be at or above the poverty line. If you are pinning the success of your business on paying people minimum wage you are doing it wrong.

The poverty line???? HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAAAAAA...I deal with people every day living in tax payer funded housing, eating tax payer funded food, and using tax payer subsidized water and power. They have AC, cable TV(usually a flat screen), cars, video games, smartphones, etc. They even have healthcare due to tax payers and consumers. They also reproduce at a pretty respectable rate while not having adequate employment. The poverty line is not a good measure of how Americans are doing due to our system of welfare. To go without in America means that you don't know how to fill out gov't forms.



#22 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:31 PM

So employees should be paid based on the value that they offer a company? Minimum wage decreases job opportunities because young, unskilled workers often can not produce $10 of value, let alone $7.25 in value for small business. My granddad retired from the Ford plant. He tells me of incompetent employees who couldn't perform on the manufacturing line, yet couldn't be fired because of the union. They were paid $22/hour to basically push a broom while the other workers provided the value to the company. Surely you are not in favor of that practice?

Ironic that you mention a Ford plant, as Henry Ford was a proponent of paying employees more because he figured they would buy more of his cars and other products. Any well run business is designed in such a way that if an employee excels you reward them for their hard work. On the topic of productivity, workers today on avg produce double what they did in 1968. So I'm sorry to say but business definitely are getting a lot of bang for their buck.

 

Also, 2/3 times there is a wage increase job rates have gone 1 year after the wage increase has been implemented.


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#23 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:34 PM

The poverty line???? HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAAAAAA...I deal with people every day living in tax payer funded housing, eating tax payer funded food, and using tax payer subsidized water and power. They have AC, cable TV(usually a flat screen), cars, video games, smartphones, etc. They even have healthcare due to tax payers and consumers. They also reproduce at a pretty respectable rate while not having adequate employment. The poverty line is not a good measure of how Americans are doing due to our system of welfare. To go without in America means that you don't know how to fill out gov't forms.

Yes, but if you pay someone above the poverty line then they would not be entitled to all these benefits.


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#24 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9326 Posts   Joined 4.9 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 02:39 PM

On the topic of productivity, workers today on avg produce double what they did in 1968. So I'm sorry to say but business definitely are getting a lot of bang for their buck.

 

 

Skilled laborers are producing more or skilled machinery run by unskilled workers are producing more?



#25 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1010 Posts   Joined 9.0 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 03:18 PM

Yes, but if you pay someone above the poverty line then they would not be entitled to all these benefits.

That would be awesome, but should not a business owner be free to offer a job at any wage that he deems fair? Should a free citizen be able to accept work at any wage they deem worthy?  And should not a wage be tied to the actual value of the work and not an imaginary minimum that would actually have to  vary greatly throughout the nation due to cost of living being so different in many areas?



#26 UncleBob  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 03:21 PM

There is something inherently wrong when an individual works full time and maybe holds down a couple of part time jobs and is still below the poverty line.


Our Federal Overlords put the poverty level at $11,490 for an individual. If you're working a minimum wage job full time, say you have ~20% in taxes taken out (I wonder if that $11,490 figure is pre or post-tax), you could work 40 hours a week, take two unpaid weeks off a year and be above the poverty level.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#27 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 03:29 PM

That would be awesome, but should not a business owner be free to offer a job at any wage that he deems fair? Should a free citizen be able to accept work at any wage they deem worthy?  And should not a wage be tied to the actual value of the work and not an imaginary minimum that would actually have to  vary greatly throughout the nation due to cost of living being so different in many areas?

I recall a time when business owners were free to offer a job at any wage that they deemed fair. I believe for a few hundred years we figured out that paying people nothing and treating them as property would be better for the bottom line. Today we choose to pay migrant workers (illegals) peanuts to do the work no honest American is interested in doing for that little pay. 

 

That said, I do agree with your last point that a wage should be tied to the actual value of the work done and not an imaginary minimum but who determines the value of the work done? One arbitrary number is as good as the next.


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#28 dohdough   Sum Dum Guy CAGiversary!   6459 Posts   Joined 6.2 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 03:33 PM

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"Speaking of which, there's another elitist prick that argues constantly on the Politics forums by the name of dohdough. He's a complete douche, but at least he keeps his posts in that cesspool of useless opinions. He gets my runner-up nomination."


Thanks for the nomination for the Most Memorable CAG Villan 2012, Blade!

#29 kill3r7   MiNd ThE GaP CAGiversary!   4376 Posts   Joined 10.7 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 03:40 PM

Our Federal Overlords put the poverty level at $11,490 for an individual. If you're working a minimum wage job full time, say you have ~20% in taxes taken out (I wonder if that $11,490 figure is pre or post-tax), you could work 40 hours a week, take two unpaid weeks off a year and be above the poverty level.

I stand corrected. I was working off $23,500 which is the poverty line for a family of 4. I should have said the head of household instead of an individual my bad.


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#30 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1010 Posts   Joined 9.0 Years Ago  

Posted 15 January 2014 - 03:41 PM

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"You can't be poor! You've got no job yet still have a house, a car, tattoos, AC, cigarettes, internet, cable TV, a smartphone, Xbox, DVD player, and three kids who haven't starved to death!!!"   Maybe you just make very poor personal and financial decisions and should be extremely thankful that you live in a country that will provide for you DESPITE your idiotic actions.