[UncleBob]

Nowhere does Israel call for the destruction of another race or state like Hamas does.

But at this point I would love for Israel to step on their throat and wipe them out for good.

Dude. You're stating the same rhetoric you're giving Palestinians three shades of hell for.

This crap like this and crap like "you want to bathe in the blood of babies"... it's no wonder there's no hope for peace in the middle east.

[Finger_Shocker]

Well as they keep saying, as long as its NOT written down it doesn't count.... Apparently actions don't count to some of those guys ..

[egofed]

It's not the elected government members doing all this or ordering this.  Do you even read up on any of this before you spew this stuff?

 

Hamas IS considered a terrorist organization by many countries.  It did win Parliament, but that doesn't mean the entire country agrees with them.  Obama is our president, but plenty of people make it clear they don't agree with his policies and they didn't vote for him.  The kidnapping that sparked all this is suspected to be the work of Hamas members, but:

 

1.  Israel hasn't been able to produce any PROOF that this is the case.

2.  Do the actions of political party members suddenly become "official government actions" in your eyes?

 

That's ridiculous.  Just because someone is a member of a political party doesn't turn their actions into "government actions."  Do you choose to ignore the fact that even if Palestinians wanted Hamas to stop doing what they are doing there's nothing they can do?  I certainly don't dictate US foreign policy even though I voted for the party in power.  

 

Whatever helps you sleep at night.  Murder is murder.  What Hamas does is murder and is wrong.  What the Israeli government is doing is murder and equally wrong.  I just choose to view everything through the same lens.  

Isn't Hamas negotiating the ceasefires? They must  have some pull with the rocket firing dudes.  Shouldn't they organize sweeps of Gaza to find and stop these "few" extremists who continually fire rockets into Israel and build elaborate tunnels with their own resources? Police your own populace if you don't want a neighbor who is being attacked to step in and do it for you. How much and what type of aid is Israel giving Gaza? Should they end it like we should end our aid to Israel (and every other freaking country)?

 

I also gotta ask Berzirk, is Hamas following the Geneva Convention?

[berzirk]

It's not a direct comparison.  Law enforcement and bullets are different from military and rockets.  I really don't get the continual need to change the argument to into something else, "bullets", "punches", "bank robbers", etc.  Just call it for exactly what it is...
 
For a real direct comparison: If someone was sitting on an apartment building over the border and using it as a staging area to fire rockets at my town while I was trying to live my life, go to work, drop the kids off at school, etc, I'd have zero issue with the military using a missile to level said apartment building regardless of how many rockets were intercepted by a defense system.  To be honest, you almost certainly would be fine with it as well if it was your town.

 

On the flip side, if the local government came to your house, sat down on your roof, fired off rockets over the border at some random town and then said "sucks to be you!" and ran off before your house was leveled by a missile strike, whose fault would it be that your house was blown up?  Oh yeah, but the whole human shield thing is "bullshit" because that's a lot easier than addressing the fact that this is exactly what's happening.

 

I'd have a lot easier time swallowing all the anti-Israel crap if the people spewing it put even a third as much effort into admitting what Hamas was doing and how fucked up and monstrous it is.  instead, the best you get is the occasional handwaved "Well, I'm not defending them but let's spend another ten paragraphs bitching about Israel..."

Wait...so I make an analogy, and you say it's wrong to make these because it's too confusing, or inaccurate, or God knows what, so you counter with...making analogies.  You win. I'm officially confused.

 

The best I can pull out of your argument is that you believe that if any rocket is fired out of a civilian area in Palestine, to a civilian area in Israel, regardless of the Israeli casualties, you are in favor of killing a lot of Palestinian civilians in retribution.  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm sincerely trying to interpret your examples and make sure I'm following your beliefs.

 

I live in Oregon.  If a Native American reservation was firing rockets into Oregon, and my government retaliated by leveling schools, killing kids, and restricting access to medical and humanitarian aid into the reservation, I would be against it.  I would not think the response matched the action.  To go biblical, I would call it a body for an eye.

 

So maybe that's it.  You think it's OK for a bunch of innocent people to die, for each bad guy who dies.  I guess we just disagree on that principle.

[dohdough]

I guess we just disagree on that principle.

I heard that principles are for pussies.

[berzirk]

Again, it's not "myself" and "yourself". These are not singulars. The government of Gaza, a bunch of guys called Hamas who were elected by the people of the region are waging a war against the nation of Israel. Israel is attempting to stop this in an effort to defend its citizens. It's not a guy with a pistol in a mall or a guy throwing rocks or a guy yelling at a dog or whatever other asinine comparisons people need to make to diminish the fact that the government of Gaza is waging a war against Israel.  It's not some random thugs or terrorists or extremists or criminals or a singular madman, it's the elected government there waging a war.  It is appropriate for a nation to defend itself when attacked by another government.  You want the civilian deaths to stop?  Place your view on the government which is perpetrating the war by indiscriminately attacking Israel with explosive rockets.
 

 
Yeah, that's it.  "You have a different opinion than me so... indoctrination!  All free minded people think like me!!"

Christsake, why is that singular point so hard for you to comprehend....OK, let's do it this way. Are you OK with, according to Israel, the US, UK, Canada, and a few others, a terrorist organization firing rockets at Israel from civilian areas, and having Israel's response be bombing neighborhoods, leveling schools, blocking humanitarian aid, and taking down electricity and water in response?  That's exactly what's happening, there's no, imagine these guys are doing this, those guys are doing that, rocks, punches, malls, etc.   You are honestly OK with, Israel's response, resulting in more than 3/4ths of the Palestinian deaths being civilians, including women, and young children?  That's alright with you? 

 

Thank God, most of the world isn't OK with it, most people think it's awful, and we're seeing the international backlash as compassionate hearts and minds are responding against excessive civilian deaths.

 

As to your point of Hamas, the elected government.  Wait...so now they are an elected government?  The cease-fires have to go through other countries because the US refuses to communicate with Hamas.  So are they a rogue group of terrorists, or an official government?  If they are official, then the US should immediately declare them as such, giving them direct authority to govern the area, carry on commerce, establish an official military, and Israel should have no power to block import or export into the territory..oh wait...there is that small detail that they aren't a recognized country and are technically considered an occupied territory.  This also means that they don't have the legal grounds to declare war on another country.  I guess you didn't understand that, because as such, by law it means Palestine is not bound by the Geneva Convention (which Israel agreed to be a part of).  You don't understand the ramifications of Israel, the US, and nobody else considering Hamas to be an official government entity, or Palestine a country. It's actually quite comical because in the US and Israel's haste to show they are bed buddies and won't negotiate with terrorists...they keep Palestine as an occupied territory, which then puts a greater onus on Israel for their treatment towards them, legally.  So educate yourself on the official Palestine status.  That makes all the legal arguments moot, but like I said, I guess you didn't know any of that, so your ignorance is understandable.

 

Seriously I never want to hear anybody say Islam is peaceful again. The same people who say that are the same ones who believe "moderate Muslims" exist and that Hamas is right no matter what.

You are funny.  I wish I could be simple minded enough to look at issues the way you do, but unfortunately I have the correct number of chromosomes.

[Finger_Shocker]

I remember when George Bush ( some of your guys favorite president ) decided to invade and "free" Iraq.  In his and generals followup order they wanted a gov't that included a Shiites, Sunni, and Kurd gov't,  so that by giving a voice and gov't to each group it would stop the sectarian violence..

 

I guess we all know who is not calling the shots for peace....

[Syntax Error]

Palestine is not bound by the Geneva Convention (which Israel agreed to be a part of).  You don't understand the ramifications of Israel, the US, and nobody else considering Hamas to be an official government entity, or Palestine a country. [...]  That makes all the legal arguments moot, but like I said, I guess you didn't know any of that, so your ignorance is understandable.

The irony writes itself.

 

Quick!  Start backpedaling and saying how that doesn't count and yadda yadda and only if we were so smart as you with your Google University diploma, we'd all know that you're right...

 

I know I said I was done so I'll skip all the other obvious taunts and whatnot.  That was too amusing to pass up though.  Smugness only works if you're actually correct, you know.

[berzirk]

The irony writes itself.

 

Quick!  Start backpedaling and saying how that doesn't count and yadda yadda and only if we were so smart as you with your Google University diploma, we'd all know that you're right...

 

I know I said I was done so I'll skip all the other obvious taunts and whatnot.  That was too amusing to pass up though.  Smugness only works if you're actually correct, you know.

The first fucking sentence states "Palestinian Authority". You're denouncing Hamas, who you call the elected government and not a terrorist organization, then link to the unelected, US recognized leadership as the official government. So does that mean you think Hamas is the elected government, or is the PA?

 

"The UN and the Swiss government have accepted requests from the Palestinian Authority (PA) to join 14 international treaties and conventions."

 

But I'll fully admit, that I had no idea the PA was accepted by the UN to be party to the Geneva Convention. I knew they wanted to and the US was pissed that they were going to try, but didn't know it happened. Apparently on April 12th of this year the Palestinian Authority was accepted.  The article also details the occupation status that I expanded on in my post:

 

"Israeli authorities said this should not be applied in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip because they are no longer claimed by Egypt or Jordan, who ruled them before 1967. In addition, they claim that the Palestinian state has never existed."

 

I guess Israel doesn't recognize the country of Palestine and is currently trying to wipe them off the map.  Maybe they started using Hamas' old charter.

[RPGNinja]

Berzirk nobody takes you seriously on Islam when you support a terrorist organization in Hamas and your picture is a screaming Muslim radical.

If you have the correct number of chromosomes then how come you keep failing to understand basic concepts? It is either because you are blinded by "Allah" or maybe you should actually look at your number of chromosomes.

[RPGNinja]

Dude. You're stating the same rhetoric you're giving Palestinians three shades of hell for.

This crap like this and crap like "you want to bathe in the blood of babies"... it's no wonder there's no hope for peace in the middle east.

Uh "Dude" Hamas wants Israel wiped for good and they attacked them and have been attacking since this whole thing started. You are trying to take my whole post out of context to make it look contradictory but it isn't even close.

Stop pretending to be one of those "independents" and trying to be fair. The more people with your type of thinking exists the longer this thing gets dragged out and MORE people die.

A cease fire is just another way for Hamas to keep regrouping and killing people and hiding amongst women and children like cowards.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Not going to bother with most of the Israel love, but one point I would like to refute is that the Iron Dome is why Israel hasn't suffered many casualties. The Iron Dome, according to Israel, has stopped somewhere between 15-20% of the rockets fired into Israel.

 

That means that over 2,000 rockets have flown into Israel recently. And only 3 civilians have died. Call me a crazy conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't sound like Palestinian rockets are all that lethal.

 

This is like a 13 year old bully taking a 6 year old kid's lunch every day, and the kid throws a tomato at him. Hell, let's say he threw 20 tomatoes. The 13 year old proceeds to beat the shit out of the 6 year old, and everyone cheers the 13 year old for defending himself. It is insanity.

[Syntax Error]

The Iron Dome, according to Israel, has stopped somewhere between 15-20% of the rockets fired into Israel.

 

That means that over 2,000 rockets have flown into Israel recently. And only 3 civilians have died. Call me a crazy conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't sound like Palestinian rockets are all that lethal.

 

The Iron Dome system tracks rockets coming out of Gaza.  If it calculates for them to land in an olive grove somewhere, it just lets them drop.  If it calculates that they are going to hit a populated area, it launches an interceptor.  This is to prevent the system from being overwhelmed trying to stop every rocket.  The reason why it "only" stops 15-20% of the rockets is because 80-85% of the rockets are on a bad trajectory to hit anything (or anyone, really).  Also, the interceptor rockets cost something like $50,000 each so using one every time a $500 rocket is headed into the desert is just poor management.

 

It's not a question of the rockets being lethal.  It's a question of the lethal rockets having poor guidance, i.e. "none" once they're in the air.

[berzirk]

Berzirk nobody takes you seriously on Islam when you support a terrorist organization in Hamas and your picture is a screaming Muslim radical.

If you have the correct number of chromosomes then how come you keep failing to understand basic concepts? It is either because you are blinded by "Allah" or maybe you should actually look at your number of chromosomes.

BHAA HAAAA HAAA HAA!!!!!  Please keep posting.  Laughter is good for the body!

[dohdough]

BHAA HAAAA HAAA HAA!!!!!  Please keep posting.  Laughter is good for the body!

I think he just wants to get in our pants...or maybe...he wants us to get into HIS pants...

[berzirk]

I think he just wants to get in our pants...or maybe...he wants us to get into HIS pants...

An angry black guy, a radical muslim, and RPGNinja walk into a bar...RPGNinja calls the police and hides in the bathroom.

 

So the setup takes awhile, but the punchline makes it well worth it.

[asampedasjohor]

The Iron Dome system tracks rockets coming out of Gaza. If it calculates for them to land in an olive grove somewhere, it just lets them drop. If it calculates that they are going to hit a populated area, it launches an interceptor. This is to prevent the system from being overwhelmed trying to stop every rocket. The reason why it "only" stops 15-20% of the rockets is because 80-85% of the rockets are on a bad trajectory to hit anything (or anyone, really). Also, the interceptor rockets cost something like $50,000 each so using one every time a $500 rocket is headed into the desert is just poor management.

It's not a question of the rockets being lethal. It's a question of the lethal rockets having poor guidance, i.e. "none" once they're in the air.

Where u get this info? Any link?

[Syntax Error]

Link 1
Link 2
 
Both say pretty much what I said.  I'll admit that I winged the cost of a rocket at $500 largely for alliteration with "$50,000".  The Discovery link says "under $1,000".  Likewise, the Discovery link backs up my $50,000 per interceptor missile cost, but the GlobalNews link says up to $100,000.
 
Anyway, the technical details are the same: rockets are tracked and only the ones headed for populated areas are intercepted.

 

The information is sent to a control center on a truck and operators check the trajectory of the rocket. If it's headed to a populated area or a military target, an Iron Dome missile, called a Tamir, is fired. This missile is guided and therefore more accurate than the attacking missile. A solider programs the Tamir with the incoming rocket's trajectory and then guides it with the help of radar. When the Tamir reaches the rocket, it detonates, destroying it.

The system does not target rockets or missiles directed at uninhabited areas.

One more from CNN:

More than 250 rockets have been fired out of Gaza toward Israel in that time, the IDF said. Israel uses the Iron Dome system only against rockets headed toward populated areas. If one appears to be headed for an empty field, the dome does not activate.
[...]
"The radar detects a rocket launch and passes information regarding its path to the control center, which calculates the predicted point of impact," the IDF said. "If this location justifies an interception, a missile is fired to intercept the rocket. The payload of the interceptor missile explodes near the rocket, in a place that is not expected to cause injuries."

[Syntax Error]

This Jane's article gives some harder numbers for the system's effectiveness.

Israel's Iron Dome system has successfully intercepted 86% of the Palestinian rockets that it has engaged during Operation 'Protective Edge', according to the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).

"Since the beginning of the operation, more than 1,260 rockets were launched from the Gaza Strip towards Israel," the IDF said in a statement released early on 16 July to wrap up the first nine days of the operation. "Approximately 985 rockets hit Israeli territory and 225 rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defence system with an overall success rate of 86%."

If the Iron Dome intercepted 86% of the rockets it engaged, that would be about 265 rockets that were headed towards populated areas out of 1,260 rockets.  One of the other articles I read said that approximately 1-in-10 rockets intercepted gets through the Iron Dome system so that matches close to the 86% rate.

One confusion here is that 265 rockets out of 1,260 is 81%. So the percentage of rockets that actually justified interception is close to the same percentage successfully intercepted once engaged. It's easy for someone unfamiliar with the system to read that 1,260 rockets were fired and that the Iron Dome has an ~83% interception rate and assume this means 265 rockets landed in populated areas. In reality, most of the rockets launched were "ignored" and landed in the middle of a field somewhere without incident.

 

Oh, and I'm just working off the figures and percentages given in the article.  Undoubtedly the numbers of rockets is different now although there's no reason to assume the percentages are significantly different.

[Finger_Shocker]

delete

[RPGNinja]

BHAA HAAAA HAAA HAA!!!!!  Please keep posting.  Laughter is good for the body!

Uh oh. The Muslim radical ran out of pretend facts. Now cue the "pretend laughter" and acting like he isn't all pissy.

Oh oh! Tell us the story about how Hamas isn't a terrorist organization!

[Squarehard]

[RPGNinja]

LOL nice pic. Hamas treats their women like pets so that is VERY fitting.

[berzirk]

One of my pet peeves is people who write LOL but didn't actually LOL, so I'll say with 100% sincerity, LOL.  I'm enjoying your posts man. Continue, continue!!

[RPGNinja]

On of my pet peeves is people who write LOL but didn't actually LOL, so I'll say with 100% sincerity, LOL.  I'm enjoying your posts man. Continue, continue!!

I am glad you are annoyed by it because I love LOLing in your face all day long at your posts.

Maybe you will get so annoyed you will learn to not be an Anti-Semite.

[berzirk]

I am glad you are annoyed by it because I love LOLing in your face all day long at your posts.

Maybe you will get so annoyed you will learn to not be an Anti-Semite.

The world needs more happiness!! I'm glad that you find time in the day to LOL.

 

(a few generations back on my Father's side, a grandfather named Solomon Israel was a little bit, kinda Jewish-wait...does that make me a self-hating, terrorist, extremist, charming and whimsical,  Muslim,  Jew??! The horror!

 

Shalom!!!

[RPGNinja]

The world needs more happiness!! I'm glad that you find time in the day to LOL.
 
(a few generations back on my Father's side, a grandfather named Solomon Israel was a little bit, kinda Jewish-wait...does that make me a self-hating, terrorist, extremist, charming and whimsical,  Muslim,  Jew??! The horror!
 
Shalom!!!

Ah yes time for you to be overly sarcastic when you have nothing left.

No need to lie about your family history either it is obvious you are a racist. And if that were even true I wouldn't announce that to your brothers in Hamas!

Never minding the fact that the only jokes Hamas wants to hear are the ones about Jews dying or women being slaves.

[berzirk]

^THIS!!!!!

[RPGNinja]

Profit!!!