Push for consent laws in college to stem sexual assualts ?

This is not a argument about condone or justify sexual assault, however of the double standards applied to cases.

So regardless of the women's "drug/alcoholic" state, it cannot be used against her if she is a victim of a sexual assault

But in cases where people make bad choices, get into fights, get hurt/accidents, or even KILLED by police in questionable circumstances, it would be fine to blame the victim's if they were in a drug/alcoholic state and they probably "deserved" it.

Yeah, because rape laws have worked so well...

[/sarcasm]

Some people have morals and some don't.  That's all it boils down to.

Finger_Shocker said:

But in cases where people make bad choices, get into fights, get hurt/accidents, or even KILLED by police in questionable circumstances, it would be fine to blame the victim's if they were in a drug/alcoholic state and they probably "deserved" it.

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I don't understand the comment. Sexual assault is an act by someone else. If I get drunk and drive or throw punches or rush a cop with a beer bottle or jump off a bridge, that's something I'm doing. If I'm assaulted, that's something someone else is doing to me. My state of intoxication has no bearing on whether or not they should be doing it.

Wow I haven't stepped into comment on anything in this Vs forum for awhile and I know that Finger Shocker was already way, way off the reservation but this takes the ing cake...

Firstly rape/sexual assault consent laws as your topic title indicates has to do mainly with direct, affirmative consent being given, and even though I'm sure many criminals would like it, the police do not have to obtain your direct & affirmative consent before investigating, confronting, detaining or doing something like tasering you.

You're also easily dismissing the fact that unfortunately many individuals with logic such as yours often do in fact "blame the victim" in a great number of rape cases because they were drunk. It's not a legal basis really but it is part of the reason many cases are hard to take to trial and especially get a conviction. To me it's ing travesty and those people are certifiably retarded but look at any number of people comments on rape/sexual assault cases involving drugs/alcohol and you'll hear something similar to this: "Well she was asking for it because she was there and drunk, on drugs, etc...."

That said I'm not even going to address the other issues with your so-called rationale...

Duo_Maxwell said:

Wow I haven't stepped into comment on anything in this Vs forum for awhile and I know that Finger Shocker was already way, way off the reservation but this takes the ing cake...

Firstly rape/sexual assault consent laws as your topic title indicates has to do mainly with direct, affirmative consent being given, and even though I'm sure many criminals would like it, the police do not have to obtain your direct & affirmative consent before investigating, confronting, detaining or doing something like tasering you.

You're also easily dismissing the fact that unfortunately many individuals with logic such as yours often do in fact "blame the victim" in a great number of rape cases because they were drunk. It's not a legal basis really but it is part of the reason many cases are hard to take to trial and especially get a conviction. To me it's ing travesty and those people are certifiably retarded but look at any number of people comments on rape/sexual assault cases involving drugs/alcohol and you'll hear something similar to this: "Well she was asking for it because she was there and drunk, on drugs, etc...."

That said I'm not even going to address the other issues with your so-called rationale...

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Hey maybe you shouldn't have come back and comment, cause you know nothing about my stance and what I am questioning, instead throw out your hoiler then thou response.

Why is it if you make bad decision while drunk/on drugs it can be used against you to ruin your image or blame your action as a contributing factor, yet except in cases of sex ( not even a assault but the consenting to having sexual relations )

I'm not talking about passed out drunk, I'm talking about where you are in a state where you make questionable choices.

Finger_Shocker said:

Hey maybe you shouldn't have come back and comment, cause you know nothing about my stance and what I am questioning, instead throw out your hoiler then thou response.

Why is it if you make bad decision while drunk/on drugs it can be used against you to ruin your image or blame your action as a contributing factor, yet except in cases of sex ( not even a assault but the consenting to having sexual relations )

I'm not talking about passed out drunk, I'm talking about where you are in a state where you make questionable choices.

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I see the idea behind the point you're trying to make here but to me it's apples to oranges. Your stance makes little to no sense to me (and the majority of others I'm guessing). As some else pointed out the scenarios differ for more than one reason. Maybe you're looking at the legal aspect of it. The fact you used the phrase "cannot be used against her" is kind of telling but also untrue. Their state is frequently used against them maybe it's just not in the way you think....

The victim's state of mind and choices are often the primary subject of a majority of sexual assault cases, especially those in colleges. Ask yourself this: In sexual assault cases involving alcohol what do you often think the accused party's defense includes? If your answer was the victim's level of inebriation you'd be correct. The other party's defense in many cases revolves around destroying the character of the accuser. There are sometimes cases in which even the police even try to talk the victim out of taking more action because they were drinking.

So the main part of my point is that often times the victims of alcohol/drug related crimes involving sex ARE blamed for "questionable choices" and usually DO have their images ruined because they were "in a state to "make questionable choices". When people say it's "blaming the victim" in a sexual assault case what do you think it is they're referring to? Look at the accuser in the Jameis Winston case, no one has tried to ruin her image right? There's just the being forced out of school, the constant defaming in the media, the death threats, etc.

You want another famous case based on a college campus lookup Lizzy Seeberg. I can't recall if alcohol was involved directly but Notre Dame officials and Campus police made it their job to investigate the girl (did not even question the accused player yet). They found she was suffering from depression and questioned her state of mind. They said she was unstable and a pathological liar because she sought treatment for depression. Months later a few reporters would even claim to have been fed this info by Notre Dame officials. Her therapists would later say that while depressed she was never remotely unstable or a spinner of tall tales. So how was her image been affected? Well a little less than 2 weeks after reporting her assault she killed herself due to the harassment of others and being made to think the whole thing was a result of something she did by even the school's investigators.

Steubenville, OH - I heard it over and over people saying that girl should not have been partying with just all those boys. She must have been easy, a slut, etc. She had her image ruined by others and one of her rapists got a standing ovation when he got to play football again. To me that certainly sounds like people are blaming her rape at least in part on her and passing it off as basing it on her "questionable choices"...

In all these cases and in the majority the other party and many other members of the public say the victim in a sexual assault is a liar or is to blame for their circumstance because they were drunk or even simply because they were depressed. Hell the victim is blamed even because of how they dress. Victim blaming is common in sexual assaults and when there's alcohol involved it's incredibly common. Like I said if you simply look at the public comments of many cases you're going to certainly hear these things. Images are ruined, people unfortunately say they did "deserve it" etc, etc. So I'm really just not seeing how you think it doesn't occur in cases involving sex?

Finger_Shocker said:

Hey maybe you shouldn't have come back and comment, cause you know nothing about my stance and what I am questioning, instead throw out your hoiler then thou response.

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Dude we all know your stance. You're a Liberal, and the best way, in your mind, to prevent rape and sexual assault is to have a nationwide ban on all penises and vaginas.

You say ban all guns, ban all police, let the Islamic terrorists kill Americans ever day, so why would your stance change on any other issue? Keep drinking Barry's Piss, or as you like to call it the Kool-Aid.

Duo_Maxwell said:

Wow I haven't stepped into comment on anything in this Vs forum for awhile and I know that Finger Shocker was already way, way off the reservation but this takes the ing cake...

Firstly rape/sexual assault consent laws as your topic title indicates has to do mainly with direct, affirmative consent being given, and even though I'm sure many criminals would like it, the police do not have to obtain your direct & affirmative consent before investigating, confronting, detaining or doing something like tasering you.

You're also easily dismissing the fact that unfortunately many individuals with logic such as yours often do in fact "blame the victim" in a great number of rape cases because they were drunk. It's not a legal basis really but it is part of the reason many cases are hard to take to trial and especially get a conviction. To me it's ing travesty and those people are certifiably retarded but look at any number of people comments on rape/sexual assault cases involving drugs/alcohol and you'll hear something similar to this: "Well she was asking for it because she was there and drunk, on drugs, etc...."

That said I'm not even going to address the other issues with your so-called rationale...

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I generally agree with what you said. The only thing I want to put out there is that the line between drunk (unable to make rational choices) and inebriated. The problem is where is that line? When I drink, there is a point where I am affected by drinking too much alcohol (the definition of inebriation) but am still conscious and capable of making decisions...to a certain extent.

In the case of rape victims, that line is even harder to determine (based on what we see in the media). Now, if a woman wakes up and a man is on top of her, that's rape. No way around it. I don't even care if she said yes and then passed out, no one with morals and a right mind should consider that consent.

However, if a woman is conscious and participating (to a certain degree), but is inebriated, where is the line then? I feel that is where the justice system has a hard time, and unfortunately the blame tends to fall on the victim. Sadly we live in a society where the "easy" answer is to simply say "she had it coming" or "she shouldn't have put herself in that position". Which is bullshit. Women shouldn't have to worry about being raped or assault simply because they drink a bit too much around other people. The fact that we have to raise boys and tell them "don't rape" should tell us that society is in the shitter.

That all being said, the fact also remains that there are still an enormous amount of false rape claims that stem from the woman not fully remembering, and thus not agreeing with their inebriated decision. It's really those woman that are ruining it for the actual victims because as has been discussed above, the defense ALWAYS goes after the victims character and questions their choices...

*sigh*

SynGamer said:

The fact that we have to raise boys and tell them "don't rape" should tell us that society is in the shitter.

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I agree with you 100% there.

Ever since Abraham Lincoln shredded the constitution, it has all been downhill.

If we start acting responsible and accountable and not putting dipshit laws in place, we may have a chance to save us all.

This whole thing cuts both ways.  Most of the time I think the woman is taken advantage of when she's drunk by a relatively sober guy.

Other times she makes a questionable choice because of her inebriation and wakes up next to a guy who is coyote ugly.  Does she have the right to cry rape because she's embarrassed she slept with someone beneath her standards?!  no.

There are times when women have been sober and given into sexual feelings towards others their parents wouldn't approve.  The goto excuse for some girls is that they were raped and the man's life is ruined.

These cases fall in the minority but the fact is they do happen and it would be intellectually dishonest to pretend they don't.  The fact is there was a man in the last few years who was released because a woman admitted lying about him raping her.  He spent many years in prison because of this.

Sarang01 said:

This whole thing cuts both ways. Most of the time I think the woman is taken advantage of when she's drunk by a relatively sober guy.

Other times she makes a questionable choice because of her inebriation and wakes up next to a guy who is coyote ugly. Does she have the right to cry rape because she's embarrassed she slept with someone beneath her standards?! no.

There are times when women have been sober and given into sexual feelings towards others their parents wouldn't approve. The goto excuse for some girls is that they were raped and the man's life is ruined.

These cases fall in the minority but the fact is they do happen and it would be intellectually dishonest to pretend they don't. The fact is there was a man in the last few years who was released because a woman admitted lying about him raping her. He spent many years in prison because of this.

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Pretty much you just need to get a permission slip signed before you get your dick sucked.

I think it's also generational rebel.  I knew an older lady who criticized girls crying rape because they were drunk.  I think she felt they should take responsibility.  As a man, unless you're Gay, when you're drunk you won't necessarily get some hitting around unless you're ridiculously attractive.  If you're the average guy you may completely strike out.

This is not the case so much if you're a woman so the dynamic is different.  If you are drunk and really horny, throwing yourself hard at people you will almost certainly find yourself in bed with someone else.  We call these kinds of things, Gay/Straight, male or female,  we call this a one night stand.

Sarang01 said:

I think it's also generational rebel. I knew an older lady who criticized girls crying rape because they were drunk. I think she felt they should take responsibility. As a man, unless you're Gay, when you're drunk you won't necessarily get some hitting around unless you're ridiculously attractive. If you're the average guy you may completely strike out.

This is not the case so much if you're a woman so the dynamic is different. If you are drunk and really horny, throwing yourself hard at people you will almost certainly find yourself in bed with someone else. We call these kinds of things, Gay/Straight, male or female, we call this a one night stand.

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Pretty much that is what it is.

They call it the "Walk of Shame" for a reason, and it's not good enough of a reason to call someone a rapist.

I've done it, I've tried to run out of the house before the girl woke up, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.