I think my TV sucks for gaming...

So I've had this TV for a couple years.  Have been using it for general TV and PS4 gaming.  

Its a Panasonic TC-P65S60.

I was playing Fallout 4 the other day and was reminded of something that had bothered me before, so I started really looking into it and trying to change settings and stuff.  The issue that was bothering me is that when I rotate my view (spin around) in Fallout 4, I notice that everything is "doubled"  almost as if the TV is always showing more than 1 frame at a time.  The faster I spin the camera, the farther apart the doubles are from each other.   It's actually pretty distracting.  And now that I'm paying close attention, basically ALL movement results in this efffect.

I've gone through all the possible settings, and there is no "game mode" setting on the TV, and I can't find any other image processing settings that I can disable to get it to stop doing that.

I'm pretty convinced at this point, that the TV simply has some sort of processing that involves showing the combination of multiple frames at once, instead of just each individual frame sent from the source.

Does this make sense to someone who knows TVs well?  Did I simply make a bad choice with this TV?

 The problem is noticiable on every game I try, and every output setting (480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p)  Changing that stuff makes no difference at all.

I wish there was some MOD for the TV, replacing a board or something that would leverage the same panel, but get rid of whatever processing the TV is doing to cause this "double exposure" effect.

I'm surprised it took me this long to notice, but now that I have, it's really bothering me...  

Is it only Fallout 4? I checked Google about this effect, and some people are saying it happens with 30fps games since 2010. I game on a PC monitor so I wouldn't know too much about this.

No, I'm seeing it with other games too.  

I was wondering that too, so I did a little comparing with my friend and his ps4 setup.  He's able to do the same thing i'm doing and it looks very smooth, no double images on his TV.  It's funny though, because while we were testing it out, he could see a little ghosting.  Not as sever as mine, but some still.  And then while we were talking it through, he found a setting that he didn't know about on the TV.  Changed it, and then it was AWESOME.  I can't remember the name of the setting on his TV, but it was something to turn off processing.   Then he was like, oh man... "I can't believe I was playing all this time without this enabled...  Oh, sorry man.."

Maybe my TV feels the need to turn a 30hz signal into a 60hz singal by interpolating some extra frames in between?  

I can easily capture the effect by recording a video of it from my iphone.  For a bit there i was wondering if it was just a "image processing in the brain" effect.

How do we know what games are outputting what frame rate?  If I knew of another title, possibly one that I have that gets a higher frame rate than F4, maybe I could do another motion test to see if it's only 30fps games.

I just found this list:

http://www.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/PS4_vs._Xbox_One_Native_Resolutions_and_Framerates

And I looked through it to see if I had any titles that were reported as 60fps @ 1080p.  Metro Redux was on the list.  I had played that one a while ago on reco from cheapyD during the podcast.

I just fired it up again, and did my "spin in place" test with it.  It was much better than what I see with Fallout 4.  So it could very well be an issue with the lower frame rate of the game, combined with my TV.  I just wish the TV had a setting that would turn off any source manipulation.  

What I don't quite get is this though.  I would think that the PS4 would possibly be capable of fixing this isue too.  Couldn't the PS4 still output a 60hz signal on games that are locked at 30pps, by sending two identical frames in a row?  

I wish the TV would tell me more about what kind of signal it's getting from it's sources.  All it says is 1080p on the info bar, would be nice to know if that's 1080p @ 30hz or 60hz.

Far Cry 4 is also on the list @ 30fps and it is one of the games that I noticed the doubling with.

I'm re-installing GTA V to see if I notice the same problem, since that one is listed at 30fps as well.

Time to get a new HD for the PS4 though... damm I had to delete a lot of stuff to get GTA V back on there. 

GTA is just as bad as fallout.  Definitely seems like it's really exaggerated on 30fps content.

I wonder if there is a device that can take 30Hz content coming in, and "Up Freq." it to 60 Hz by simply doubling each frame, so that the TV would see a 60HZ source and not mess with it?

I just hooked up the N64 to the same tv and it's the exact same thing.  30Hz content blows on this TV...

And the wife has already informed me that I will NOT be getting a new TV...

steakfest said:

Far Cry 4 is also on the list @ 30fps and it is one of the games that I noticed the doubling with.

I'm re-installing GTA V to see if I notice the same problem, since that one is listed at 30fps as well.

Time to get a new HD for the PS4 though... damm I had to delete a lot of stuff to get GTA V back on there.

Click to expand...

Are you talking about the motion trails? http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/panasonic/s60 Seems it's something that this TV has issues with according to rtings at 24p. You can try asking your question there and see if you get a response.

Also, check to see if the last firmware update they released in 2014 is installed and, if not, download it and install it and see if that helps. http://shop.panasonic.com/support-only/TC-P65S60.html

mitch079 said:

Are you talking about the motion trails? http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/panasonic/s60 Seems it's something that this TV has issues with according to rtings at 24p. You can try asking your question there and see if you get a response.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that link mitch079.

When i try to capture video, even i frequency slow mo video using the iphone 6, I don't see that same sort of motion trails that were shown on that site. I'm pretty sure that the PS4 wouldn't be sending 24p content to the TV though anyway.

Here is an screenshot from video shot while i'm spining the camera around in a forrest in Fallout 4. Notice how the clouds, trees, everything is double vision.

http://imgur.com/a/TRyHs

mitch079 said:

Also, check to see if the last firmware update they released in 2014 is installed and, if not, download it and install it and see if that helps. http://shop.panasonic.com/support-only/TC-P65S60.html

Click to expand...

Yeah I checked on the firmware and was going to install it, but check this out.

1) The firmware version that is reported by my TV is 2208 (the one on the link above is 2214) So I was thinking the same thing as you. Awesome, I'll downlaod the firmare and update it. However.

2) The TV is wifi enabled and has it's own firmware checking feature and it says that it already has the latest version. Oh well, I'll just follow the instructions on how to update manually, right...

3) The instructions to update manually tell you to put the file on an SD card and put that in the TV and turn it on....

This TV doesn't have an SD slot... WTF Panasonic...

/John

steakfest said:

Yeah I checked on the firmware and was going to install it, but check this out.

1) The firmware version that is reported by my TV is 2208 (the one on the link above is 2214) So I was thinking the same thing as you. Awesome, I'll downlaod the firmare and update it. However.

2) The TV is wifi enabled and has it's own firmware checking feature and it says that it already has the latest version. Oh well, I'll just follow the instructions on how to update manually, right...

3) The instructions to update manually tell you to put the file on an SD card and put that in the TV and turn it on....

This TV doesn't have an SD slot... WTF Panasonic...

/John

Click to expand...

I was able to update the firmware by using one of the USB ports.

And I found a couple of threads in other sites that describe the same problem I'm having. There doesn't seem to be a good explanation for what is going on here. Other than : 60Hz TVs need to fill the gaps between frames when they are 30fps, and older TVs do this in a way that causes some blurring. But some "high end" tvs don't handle it well.

At least that's how I'm intrepreting it at this point.

I'd love to find some definitive information on whether or not the doubled frames are coming out of the PS4, and if not, if there would be some way to put the signal through a conditioner that would fill the gaps with something better than the doubled frames.

It feels like this might be what's happening

PS4 outputs @ 30fps

frames

1 2 3 4 5 6

TV displays something like

1 1.5 2 2.5 3 3.5 4 4.5 5 5.5 6

The only part that doesn't quite make sense for me here is I'm not capturing the original integer frames anymore at all visually or with recording devices, so that doesn't support that part of my theory. Since all I see is this...

1.5 2.5 3.5 4.5 5.5

I'd love to come up with some way to make the TV happy and get it to display

1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6

I don't have that TV but my TV is 60 Hz (which I got about a year ago) and I don't get that effect at all. Sounds like you might want to look into a new TV.