CAGcast #483: Waggle is Back, Bitches!

CheapyD

CheapyD

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So would you say the Great Wolf Lodge is a good vacation spot if you are tired of the tedium of so many vacations in Hawaii?
 
Been to the Great Wolf Lodge in Charlotte a few times. The kids love it and no sunburn. 

While it may not be confirmed I am hearing Snipperclips is $20 digital only title. I am in for that price.

 
They didn't put in the game so they could hit $299.  To me it's a case of them feeling $299 with a game was too generous.  And they didn't want to do $349.  Plus packing in a game sends a message.  If they include 1 2 Switch then there's that attitude on the internets amongst a certain crowd that oh that dumb game is in the box.    Nevermind that its March.  They'll probably sell out for launch to early adopters.  They didn't include WiiSports with the Wii in Japan either btw.

They led off with 1 2 Switch because it's a mass market game and they had lots of mainstream press there and lots of Japanese mainstream press.  1 2 Switch reminds me of the few clips I've seen of Japanese game shows.  1 2 Switch also shows off some of the new tech in the console and the new type of gameplay possible with the console.  That's something you want to lead off with.  

Also from what I experienced on the Wii, most 1st party games  mainly used sticks and buttons while waggle was used to control a small extra function.  I expect the same thing with the Switch for most of Nintendo's first party games.  They'll use it judiciously.  

The motion control stuff meshed fine with the rest of the presentation.  I think what you're really saying is, "I don't like those games so it didn't fit."  

 
Wombat's 3ds argument as to why he didn't buy a Wii U is one of the best arguments I've heard in awhile as to one of the main problems with the Wii U and Nintendo today.  To go further with it, Nintendo's proposition to Wombat was pay a roughly $150 extra for a Wii U so you can play your console games off tv up to 20' away on the GAmepad  even though you already bought a 3ds from us for a similar amt of money that can be played anywhere.   The little bit of asynchronous gameplay they had, could have or should have been done in conjunction with owning a 3ds.    I mean they weren't too far from being able to pack in a 3ds with just the Wii U console (no Gamepad) and charging the same amt money by the time the Wii U launched. 

 
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I wouldn't be so sure that the Switch isn't the 1 platform to rule them all.  Battery life of Switch is similar to battery life of 3ds XL.  Don't think a 3ds sequel in 2019 could be much cheaper than Switch would be by then and still have a leap of graphics over the 3ds.

AS Cheapie said, they can always make a smaller handheld only Switch.  I'd even go a step further and say the thing could have a USB-C port on it for connecting to any USB-C hub or the Nintendo Dock for playing the games on the tv.  IT just wouldn't be included.  Joycons also wouldn't be included.  But could be used with it. 

IN the meantime the 3ds is their handheld and low cost platform.  

 
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Ship makes a good pt about not losing the handheld business.  I can see they wanting to continue both because in the past they've been able to sell customers both.  And it caters to even younger kids and they are the only ones doing that dedicated handheld business. 

But again where does that handheld fit in, when your console is a portable, with the battery life of a 3ds xl, that can play Zelda:BotW on the go, and yet also hook to your tv, use motion controllers or be a tabletop screen at a roof patio party. 

ONe way for Nintendo to make up for any loss of $40 handheld game business is to charge $60 to play your games on the go under the guise that you have a home console that is portable. 

PLus they can still mix in the $40 handheld games in between the big AAA releases.  And release a smaller handheld with dock and joycons sold separately.

And who says the Switch isn't really their portable business and that the only reason Nintendo is telling everyone its a home console is because the price is high right now and because a portable console sounds like more of a value and because it distances Nintendo's product further from F2P mobile games.

 
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The chip in the Switch runs 360 games easy and Skyrim is a 360 game.  Howard did his video for the worldwide  release event.  It's coming.  Fall release not a bad sign.  Launch day releases scare me cause that stuff is usually rushed out to meet the date. 

Now I wouldn't buy a Switch now just for Skyrim because you don't know how much effort they will put into porting it.  And the series is buggy to begin with so ...

 
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Snipperclips is $19.99

Not packing 12 Swtich with the console is a way to say "hey waggle is optional!!" We dont want to overcharge you for something you dont want!! I hope you enjoyed the $499 Xbox One with kinnect!!!.

Arms is a fighting game.This new waggle is actually very precise, or so they say. The only way to know if the game works is to try it . Hey you are part of the specialized press right? How was the game?

The rest of the big games shown were aimed to the "serious" gamer. Xenoblade 2, Mario Odissey, Zelda, A few third party jrpg. Are you sure that waggle is back?

The 3DS is at its peak of popularity. And the Fire Emblem game for the 3DS is not a mainstream game like Awakening or Fates, it is a bit of a nice epilogue. It is really not a good fit for a debut on a platform. It is not that easy to understand. Of course it is more fun if you play thick to bash nintendo. Whatever.

Loved the episode.

 
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Here's the lose/lose for Nintendo as illustrated by the CAGcast.

They don't take risks.  

Oh they created a new Metroid game but it was different and stupid.

They don't take risks.

HD Rumble, joycons,  portability?  Why didn't they just make a console with a regular controller?

They don't create new IP.

Splatoon? What is that?  I'm not sure if I would like Splatoon.

They don't create new IP.

Why did they lead off with 1 2 Switch and ARMS?  It didn't fit.  Why wasn't ARMS called Punchout ARMS?  

They don't take risks.

1 2 Switch doesn't use the screen.  What are they thinkING??? 

 
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"At $10, it was hard to pass up" was something I laughed pretty hard at, considering the reaction to Super Mario Run on a previous episode.

 
I think the Switch is going to suffer from Waggleware just like the Wii.  For the simple fact that aside from Nintendo themselves, game developers are not going develop special functionality for one system.  The reason everyone liked Wii Sports so much is because Nintendo took the time to develop a really good motion control interface with the game.  Just about every other game just had you shake the controller to accomplish something in the game.
 

Shipwreck made the comment about having that console game experience on the go.  I think there is a sizable market for this.  I know when I am really into a good game I want to keep playing that game.  I want to experience more of that game.  I do not want to get a think about all the stuff I have left to do in that console game I am enjoying then pick up a mobile game and start playing that.  I use Remote Play on the PS4 as much as I can do some basic grinding in the RPGs I am playing.  The problem with this is Remote Play eats up lots bandwidth, it needs a pretty good internet connection.  If I could simply take the console with me and do some smaller quests or missions on my coffee break or over my lunch break that is a feature I would use almost daily.
 

I think Wombat is right that for a premium mobile gaming experience Nintendo is the only real player in the market at this moment.  But I iOS and Android are very close to being in direct competition with them as Cheapy has eluded to.  iOS has Indio Prophecy and Jade Empire now available on their platform while they are old games they are full games.  So I think that Nintendo will have some very steep competition if they do not already.
 

 
There is a American Pickers of video games show on youtube called "The Game Chasers". Met them a few times since they live in the Dallas area and they are kind of jerks sadly. At least the 3 or 4 interactions I've had with them. Their show also went downhill since they'll found everything and don't sell/give away their stuff. Oh look it's a "insert game", but I already have it.

 
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I don't think there is room for  doing a 3rd western AAA console.  I don't even think there is room for 2.  Look at the X1.  I feel like the X1 business is hurting.  They have to undercut Sony on price to move units yet they sell the same product.  Sony is outselling them 2-1.  The X1 is selling worse than the 3ds .  The 3ds made by Nintendo whose every move someone thinks is wrong. 

 I also would not be surprised if MS hasn't a made a dime overall on the console business since they entered.  

Yet oh just do what the other guys are doing.  And riches will come your way.  Your dumb if you don't.   :)

NEvermidn that one of your competitors make $15 billion in profit every year from its other businesses and doesn't seem to care if the Xbox division doesn't make any money. 

I think Nintendo is waiting for MS to exit the console market and then they will turn around and make a console that today's AAA western 3rd parties expect.  Until then they won't.  

 
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AT the end of the day, the Switch, if it's just a home console, has the same inherent problems facing it that the Wii and Wii U had.  And will fall in between that range.  It doesn't look like it will come close to the Wii because 1 2 Switch is no WiiSports from the little they showed of it.  The Wii sold  into the mainstream on the back of WiiSports as everyone knows.

ON the other hand,  the Switch hardware looks like it will be more enticing than the Wii U's was.    It is a true portable.  It's a home console.  It's a tabletop tv screen.  It does waggle, has new gameplay features and traditional controls  - all included in the box.  It might even be a tablet!?!?!  The Switch also has 4 big Nintendo games coming out the first 8-9 months  if you count MK8 deluxe.  I can see each of those games selling 8-10 million copies in the end minimum.  Still wouldn't predict it outselling the Gamecube unless it's their 1 platform to rule them all.  Then we could see 3ds numbers.

 
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I honestly don't care too much if the Switch has third party support. I'm buying it because I want to play Nintendo games on it. I already own both a PS4 and Xbox One if I want to play anything else.

 
I always like to think what would have happened if Nintendo got rid of the gamepad all together with  Wii U and just decided to retail the Wii U at $200 (supposedly the pad cost around $100) instead of the $300 it ended up retailing at. At $200 it would feel  much easier getting into the Nintendo game for the causal buyer and would have been much more competitive against the PS4 & Xbox One that were retailing at the $400 price point for a good deal of their life span. Instead it felt like they made the same mistake as the Xbox One by shoehorning in an expensive peripheral that got very little use.

To me the Switch feels somewhat of the same situation. I just don't know how much use that tablet is going to be getting me, yet it is costing me considerable resources to acquire. I hope Nintendo utilizes their gimmick to the best of their ability, but I feel like it is yet another wasted opportunity.

 
Cheapy should download the Killer Instict: Season 2 Ultra Edition from Xbox Live Gold because:

1. It's free and it's a good fighting game so why not.

2. It's a Play Anywhere title so he can play it on his PC PC PC PC.

 
I'm stuck on the same issue as Wombat. I didn't buy a Wii U because most of the games that I wanted had 3DS versions. My hopes going into the press conference were that Nintendo would announce that they're done with motion controls and that they're done making new games for the 3DS. It's been a week and we already have ice cube technology waggling and a Fire Emblem Switch game coming to 3DS.

 
Good discussion of the Switch - it wasn't the Nintendo hate-fest I anticipated based on Cheapy's on-going tweet storm the last couple of weeks!  The 'tablet-less' home console makes some sense for the north American market, but Nintendo continues to be Japan-focused.  The PS4 has the console market to itself over there, yet still is barely over 4 million sold, while even the Vita is at 5.5m and the 3DS is way ahead at over 22mm.  I'm sure they figure the 'on-the-go' aspect of the Switch is the key to capturing the market in their home country.  And just wait for the inevitable Monster Hunter and Yokai Watch announcements later this spring.

 
I can't find anything to suggest that John Carmack testified in court that he copied files that he shouldn't have, or that he has testified at all, or that he said anything to that effect in a deposition.  Any mention of such a thing seems to come entirely from the complaint, which is a document wholly produced by ZeniMax and should therefore be assumed to be as one-sided, self-serving, and unreliable as possible.

 
I agree mostly with your switch presentation discussion, it was very disappointing and I also ended up preordering one.

I don't think we can take their word about the switch not being a 3DS replacement. When the DS came out they said the same about the Gameboy line and they never released another.

 
I haven't heard anything regarding how sturdy it is with the controllers attached. They seem destined to snap off.
 
You guys nailed it. Switch is a mess. Only reason to consider one is the Nintendo games, and even those are lacking for at least the first year. As you guys said It's just the sequel to the Wii U. I love how Shipwreck thinks Nintendo did this a a answer to the Wii U where everyone thought you could bring the tablet controller everywhere to play.

At 1:09:52 "It's just a missed opportunity" - Cheapy D.

It's. A. fucking. Mess.

 
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daifuco said:
Not packing 12 Swtich with the console is a way to say "hey waggle is optional!!" We dont want to overcharge you for something you dont want!! I hope you enjoyed the $499 Xbox One with kinnect!!!.
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They are overcharging me for what I don't want. I want a box and a pro controller but I need stupid mini controllers and a thing that connects them together and have to buy a pro controller even after that. They're trying to tell me how to play this thing, which is exactly what Xbox One did. How are they different?

 
Wombat's "Reptile Dysfunction" comment needs to be commended. Did none of the other hosts hear that one? They're in the presence of a comedy genius and not even a snicker? Geez guys, seriously.
 
With so few games the whole Switch launch seems rushed AF. Mario, Skyrim, Online chat/lobby & free game rental download aren't until Fall. This should not be marketed as a console that can be taken on the go, it should be a pushed as a portable device that can hook up to your tv imo. It's 2017, when you say home console people expect certain things nowadays. PS4 Slim & Xbox One-S bundles are insanely low.

I'm gonna get Zelda for Wii U and sit this one out.

 
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The Switch reminds me a lot like the Vita. But Nintendo's online services are nothing like Sony's. We may get a Switch TV or a more powerful dock, it won't matter. It doesn't matter how many flops the system can do, if it can't offer online services similar to its competitors, especially Apple in 2010, it'll only be buoyed by a more niche audience in a marketplace that has seen mobile gaming dominate over traditional video gaming.

 
I think you guys had a more nuanced discussion of Nintendo compared to past shows, it was more positive take than I expected.

I would agree that Nintendo might be old-fashioned in their go-to market strategy/business model but they have continued to take risks and try new things throughout their history (in regards to hardware and software), more so than their competitor (not that they've always been successful): motion controls, off-screen gaming via Wii U, DS with the dual-screens and touch-screen, cartoon Zelda, Miiverse, street pass, virtual console (first iteration on Wii with the games from old competitors like the Genesis, TurboGraphx, Neo Geo, Commodore) 

And they have been creating new IPs: Splatoon, ARMS, Pushmo, BoxBoy, Codename STEAM, Xenoblade, Rhythm Heaven, Chibi Robo, all the Mii games (Tomadatchi, Wii sports/club, the street pass game), Wonderful 101. And thanks to Smash Bros. they've also had a resurgence on previously dormant franchises (Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus for example)

 
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One major thing working against the switch is that it's making a compelling for consumers to buy the wii u instead. Two of the main reasons people buy new consoles is for exclusives and a noticeable bump in graphical fidelity. We've seen this with the PS1-PS2, PS3-PS4 and the Xbox 360- Xbox one.  When these consoles jump into the next generation, there was a significant boost in how these games looked and played. With the jump going for the Wii u to the Switch, we are not seeing that same graphical jump that most players have come to expect in their home consoles. For example the new Zelda will be 900p on the switch and 720p on the Wii U version. I'd imagine that most gamers would say that mostly look the same which is bad for the Switch. 

Why pay $360 to play the latest zelda when you could spend $200 on the previous console which is going look very similar? This previous console also has tons of must play games at competitive prices whereas the Switch launch lineup is looking very thin. Also with Mario coming out in the 2017 holiday, there isn't going to be much to play on the switch.

Those Nintendo gamers who passed on the Wii U during its initial run and are looking to play HD nintendo games might just be better off buying a Wii u instead of the switch. This point is especially true if the switch ends up padding its 2017 window with Wii u ports that are only marginally better. 

Granted, this could change with future E3 announcements but the value proposition for owning a switch just isn't their right now. 

 
The cagcast also glossed over the fact that most motion control in games has been largely incorporated into VR where it makes more sense. The gaming market as a whole has evolved passed the low fidelity waggle games. 

I'd love for you guys to talk more about the impact of VR on the Switch.

 
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Am I the only one who noticed that Cheapy went to a water slide at the Friday the 13th haunted camp?!  Too funny

 
I absolutely enjoy these Nintendo talks

I'm confused as to where Ship really stands on the matter. I think he's very passionate about Nintendo and sometimes let's that come through into his discussion which isn't bad but it just leads to what seems to me to be flip-flopping

Whenever Wombat brings up valid points as to why Nintendo/Switch is only competing against itself Ship is quick to dismiss them but then goes on to say similar things about how dumb Nintendo is on certain things

Would love to see Cheapy jump in between the two more often because I think he is able to play off of both sides very well

At the end of the day I think everyone wants Nintendo to succeed, I think you guys even stated that as well.

 
ares04 said:
The cagcast also glossed over the fact that most motion control in games has been largely incorporated into VR where it makes more sense. The gaming market as a whole has evolved passed the low fidelity waggle games.

I'd love for you guys to talk more about the impact of VR on the Switch.
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The Switch form factor is tailor made for VR. IF not in some rudimentary form this gen then next gen.

 
If Nintendo said, "3DS is over and this is THE THE THE platform if you want Nintendo stuff, time to get it! We're taking a break from phone games for a long while. Come home all, time to get with the new system."

In other words, Wombat is right...Nintendo is hurting itself.

 
I'll be honest, I fully expected 90 minutes of shitting on Switch. Of all the critical Switch talk I've seen and heard online since the reveal, you guys had the most even handed. It wasn't glowing fanboyism or too-cool-for-school cynicism. Great show.

 
Great show and discussion on the Switch. I used to love Nintendo systems and was hardcore during the Gamecube era. I really wanted to want a Switch but that conference was awful. I still may end up getting it but not right away. I have kind of wanted a WiiU purely for Smash Bros but it was ridiculous the system never dropped much in price. I could afford it but I don't have time to play my ps4 a lot.

Sent from a phone
 
I'm not trying to defend 1 2 switch because it's pretty indefensible, but cheapy's point about people buying Wiis and sticking them in a closet after a few uses is off base.

I know lots of casual game players who played Wii sports bowling alone for dozens or hundreds of hours over the course of a year or two.

Mario kart Wii (36 million sold) and new super Mario Bros Wii (29 million sold) got lots of playtime, and many used Wii fit on a daily basis (22 million sold).

http://i.imgur.com/19qd5tZ.png

The Wii was a success well beyond the launch year and sold software for years after launch in amounts Nintendo had never seen before or since. It's easy to see why they want to appeal to people who loved that 2006-2009 Wii era.

As for software, I think people are always looking at it like switch buyers only own a switch? I think a lot of switch buyers at launch already own a ps4/xb1/pc. It's not like there are 40+ million potential switch buyers that skipped the Wii u and bought nothing else since their Wii in 2006.

Having Zelda at launch, Mario kart in April, Splatoon over summer, and Mario at holiday is really good for a console I see as a secondary or handheld companion to my ps4.
 
trip1eX said:
The Switch form factor is tailor made for VR. IF not in some rudimentary form this gen then next gen.
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It would be a pretty bad experience to try a gear vr style device on a 720p screen. It's fine for holding in your hands and playing a game 2 feet away, but not 1-2 inches from your face. Even my galaxy s7 at 1440p looks blurry in gear VR.
 
Virtua said:
It would be a pretty bad experience to try a gear vr style device on a 720p screen. It's fine for holding in your hands and playing a game 2 feet away, but not 1-2 inches from your face. Even my galaxy s7 at 1440p looks blurry in gear VR.
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Yeah but I imagine something more along the lines of the Virtual Boy 20 years later and not something like swimming with a life-size whale outside the Great Barrier Reef.

 
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ares04 said:
You think that console is light enough to strap to a person's head?
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Yeah. IT's not ideal, but it looks light enough so that they could make a VR mini-game collection bundled with a pair of goggles and sell it for $69.99. With the way the VR experience is so far, you're not sitting there for hours at a time anyway.

Might not happen this gen, but by next-gen I couldn't see it not happening.

 
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