CAGcast #501: An Ageless Game

CheapyD

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The gang share their E3 2017 plans and predictions, talk Far Cry 5, Nintendo Switch's online service, Wombat's Zelda Breath of the Wild impressions and so much more!

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Show Linkage/Notes:
Intro - Antipixel - Panda EyesOutro - Jay Thomas vs Kevin Bacon
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Oh wow. I'm sorry Wombat, but I'm going to have to rip on you a little bit for your Zelda: Breath of the Wild performance.

When facing the dungeon bosses, did it at any point occur to you that you should probably use some of the special abilities that you earned at the beginning of the game during the fight? Because that is the "shortcut" to beating all four of the dungeon bosses in that game. At some point during those boss fights, there's always a point where you can use those abilities to throw off the bosses' rhythm and give yourself a healthy advantage over them. It's a little early to blame Nintendo of poor game design when you aren't experimenting with the tools they've provided you with.

The fact that you actually had the option to go out and prep for the battle, and were able to beat the boss, despite not actually using all of the tools available to you, just shows how flexible the game's systems are. That's not bad game design. That's good game design that allows less creative players to progress through the game despite their shortcomings.

It's also worth pointing out that the shrines scattered around the game are partially there to train you to think of creative uses for your core abilities. Perhaps you would be reaching for those abilities more frequently if you tackled a few more of those shrines, and learned a few new tricks of how those abilities can be useful?

I can sympathize with Wombat's subverted expectations. Breath of the Wild is one of the more atypical Zelda titles. But as someone whose favorite Zelda game was the original title, a return to a more open, unforgiving world was a breath of fresh air for me.

 
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Personally i think all of Wombats complaints of Breath of the Wild are very valid. I admire him for actually playing that game as long as he has. I think i managed to play around 4 or 5 hours and had to walk away from it because it's just not a very fun game to play.

Money down the drain.

 
Oh wow. I'm sorry Wombat, but I'm going to have to rip on you a little bit for your Zelda: Breath of the Wild performance.

When facing the dungeon bosses, did it at any point occur to you that you should probably use some of the special abilities that you earned at the beginning of the game during the fight? Because that is the "shortcut" to beating all four of the dungeon bosses in that game. At some point during those boss fights, there's always a point where you can use those abilities to throw off the bosses' rhythm and give yourself a healthy advantage over them. It's a little early to blame Nintendo of poor game design when you aren't experimenting with the tools they've provided you with.

The fact that you actually had the option to go out and prep for the battle, and were able to beat the boss, despite not actually using all of the tools available to you, just shows how flexible the game's systems are. That's not bad game design. That's good game design that allows less creative players to progress through the game despite their shortcomings.

It's also worth pointing out that the shrines scattered around the game are partially there to train you to think of creative uses for your core abilities. Perhaps you would be reaching for those abilities more frequently if you tackled a few more of those shrines, and learned a few new tricks of how those abilities can be useful?

I can sympathize with Wombat's subverted expectations. Breath of the Wild is one of the more atypical Zelda titles. But as someone whose favorite Zelda game was the original title, a return to a more open, unforgiving world was a breath of fresh air for me.
I used the water spell, but I didn't find it very useful. At times it didn't even work properly.
 
I have to side with Shipwreck. What game is Wombat even playing? Better question, what game does he think he's playing? This isn't Link to the Past, this isn't Ocarina of Time. Break yourself of that mindset. The biggest complaint that had been levied against the Zelda series is that it has refused to change over time. You kinda just sound like you want this game to be another Skyward Sword. It's not that. The longer you expect it to be that, the longer you'll continue to be disappointed.

Comparing the open world of Mass Effect: Andromeda to this game is insane. The open world is one of the least interesting parts of ME:A. The open world is basically the main draw of Breath of the Wild.

Also, the draw distance/pop-in comment you made was really strange. I don't think I ever experience what you described on the show, and it seemed like Shipwreck was just as dumbfounded.
 
Hey Guys,

Love the Show.

Can we make a rule that Wombat is no longer allowed to discuss BOTW live on the air? I'm not trying to jab too hard, but listening to his explanations on how awful the level design is in Zelda was probably the most painful experience I've listened to on the cagcast so far! It pains me to think that Wombat is just aimlessly wandering around the countryside and not finding any joy whatsoever in this game. Could Wombat be the most joyless Zelda player ever? What are you even doing in this game? 

I won't get into too many details, but the game literally gives to the player the freedom to tackle main points on the map in any order they see fit. Should it be ANY surprise that after only completing 12 shrines that he was going to have difficulty beating one of the four bosses in the game? Don't get me wrong, I love listening to a Wombat rant from time to time, but when you blame your poor in-game decisions on the actual game being designed poorly, that's when you lose me. 

So here's me... the noob on your channel... giving you my TOP 5 TIPS to boost your Zelda experience:

       1. SLOW DOWN! - If you are finding anything too difficult, you are not strong enough for the area.

       2. SHRINES! SHRINES! SHRINES! You should be coming across them quite regularly.

       3. HAVE FUN! - Go climb some trees or experiment by lighting different things on fire. 

       4. DON'T GO CHASING WATERFALLS! Reset your mindset. This is ain't no "Ocarina of Time."

       5. BE PREPARED! If you're attempting to progress the game, make sure you are overly qualified. Chances are, Wombat... you'll die.

All this is meant to be in good taste... I do believe in you Wombat! And would also like to suggest changing the name of Wombat's section from "Wombat's Overwatch Onslaught" to "Wombat's Hyrule Hustle," where we attempt to coach Wombat through his depressing BOTW playthrough. Truly, I feel for anyone who can't seem to enjoy this game.

Good show, keep them coming...        

 
Wombat's crazy.  Wake up.   IT's 2017.  BotW plays different than your 2006 Zelda.  You can go into places in this game and die because you aren't strong enough.  You can get to places that you aren't ready for.  That wasn't true of the old Zelda games.  It is true in BotW.  Sounds like you weren't paying attention to the game in front of you.  

Gotta love hearing Wombat complain the game isn't like old Zelda games while Cheapie constantly complains Nintendo never changes.  

The only thing I'll give you is the game could have used batch cooking.  It gets tedious.  But as Ship said you can and do accumulate lots of food if you explore a lot and you can probably just munch off the raw food.  

 
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Cheapy, the problem with women only screenings of Wonder Woman is that it's sexist.
I'm sure people would complain if they did a men only screening of a Batman film
I'd say it's normal for people to criticize The Alamo Drafthouse's sexism.

Plus they are donating ticket sales to Planned Parenthood, so they are pretty much cutting their donations by 50%.
Seems like they don't care about the donation cause at all and just want to stir up controversy.

 
I'm not one of the people making a stink about the WW screenings, but I certainly understand it. I've been a WW fan for years, and to quote someone from reddit, "Treating people different based on their gender is not something Wonder Woman is about". The screenings indicate a profound misunderstanding of WW, and that is unfortunate.

That Kevin Bacon interview at the end was crazy. What an awful host. All he had to do was move on and ask something different instead of trying to force Bacon into saying something about it.
 
I once played Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, where you can apparently influence your party members to go Dark Side or Light Side, and even turn some into Jedi. I'm someone who talks the heads off my party members in RPGs, yet this influence stuff never happened. I have no idea what I did "wrong" when playing it, but apparently I didn't play it right somewhere. I probably didn't do one or two things that were necessary to progress the influence gameplay and most people just happened to do those things. Maybe the game could've made it clearer those things were necessary?

So, Wombat's case with BotW reminded me of that. I too have experienced a "different game" for reasons unclear to me. Maybe if he takes some of Shipwreck's gameplay suggestions, who apparently had a more "traditional" experience, about a few key things to do to make it more enjoyable, he'll enjoy it a lot more. Sometimes a slight perspective shift can make all the difference. Or maybe he's right and it sucks (http://i.imgur.com/tJ8smuY.jpg), we'll just have to see!

 
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Dear Wombat, if you want to play a perfect 10 game, put down Zelda and get Horizon Zero Dawn. You will be blown away. It is in my top 3 favorite games of all time. Ship needs to start playing it again also. I really want to hear your take on Horizon after your disappointment with Zelda.
 
Sorry, but if you're spending 'hours' on a boss in Breath of the Wild and dying multiple times, then it just means you're terrible at the game.  But no worries, CAGcast is still great!

 
If we're talking podcasts, CAGcast is my favorite. Cheapy, if you like stories about scams listen to The Skeptics Guide to the Universe. It's a science podcasts and they're always discussing the current woo and pseudo science being pushed on the public. My favorite was the McDonald's franchisee who paid $10,000 to get the correct fung shwei (sp?).
 
"I don't think you're playing it right."

Therein lies the problem, Ship. If you make a game that gives you total freedom and a huge open world, and there is a way to "not play it right" then you have not designed a good game. Every point Wombat made is 100% spot on. Wombat is playing it the way he wants to play it, and the game experience for him is just not that good. The game is simply overrated.

Hearing Shipwreck not able to comprehend that Wombat doesn't like the game was pretty entertaining though.

 
Finished ME:A and then Zelda recently. I can relate to some of Wombat's sentiments, but overall I would say ME:A 6/10, BOTW 8/10.

Full disclosure is that I hated almost all open world games, only beat Mordor and Saboteur. In both cases I loved the setting, and a couple unique touches (nemesis system, and black-white color scheme).

The story of BOTW is pretty boring, with no twists or turns. Even worse, due to the openness of the world, the 4 beasts are more or less repeats of similar story beats. One at least has an interesting premise of Link having been there in the past, the rest are very blah.

The 4 beasts and final boss fights aren't all that interesting mechanic-wise either. They do require enough health and arrows. But how is a new player supposed to know how much health they need? I definitely feel like the best way to start is just wandering randomly until at least 20 or so shrines are done, upgrade stamina 2-3 times, and put the rest in health. Equipment breakage is always annoying and especially so during these fights.

In terms of being forced to travel back to town part, at least fast travel is easy in this game, so players never get stuck. The question of why can't Link cook anywhere (maybe require certain items so he can start a fire and put a pot on?) or at least somewhere in the dungeon though, is a fair complaint in my view.

Towers are at least a step up from the Ubisoft icon vomit formula, but wombat is correct in saying that seeing where things might be do not give any sense of how difficult the traversal (environments in the game are basically puzzles, but without enough upgrades or knowing where to get stuff they are frustrating) or encounters actually will be. 

Loot in the game is disappointing. Some equipment have cool extra effects, but chests or monster drops rarely excite me. In any case, they'll break soon anyway. Equipment slots limitations are also annoying. Due to these factors, I never stressed out about leaving unopened chests.

I feel like new players need some extra info to enjoy the starting parts, and getting to know some of the cooler things BOTW allows that other games don't also elevates appreciation of the game. To be fair, I would have have missed most of them on my own as well. Like explosions cook food, bombs be used to fish, standing on a bridge gets NPCs to try to talk you down, etc. Perhaps reading a bit would help Wombat to like the game more.

Overall the world in BOTW is already more interesting than Skyrim or ME:A. The lenient travel points are also one step above ME:A (I hate those multi-part fetch quests). Ease of movement is great, as Link can climb, glide, and handle almost any terrain; whereas the driving in ME:A is horrendous (you also had to press a button to switch driving mode to get up hills...why...). I would rate BOTW as one of the better open world games, but the limitations of the open world does drag down some parts that may have been awesome in past Zelda games. Hence the disappointment Wombat feels expecting a conventional Zelda game. ME:A on the other hand, should not have been open world at all.

 
The Kevin Bacon interview was one of the most cringeworthy things I have ever listened too.  What an awful host.

 
Wombat, I love ya, but I had a hard time following your rant on Breath of the Wild. From what it sounds like, you might be overthinking it all a bit.

 
Wombat, I love ya, but I had a hard time following your rant on Breath of the Wild. From what it sounds like, you might be overthinking it all a bit.
Yep it's essentially rpg 101. Gotta lvl up more if you're having a tough time. "Lvl-ing up" in this game means hitting more shrines for more hearts/stamina, getting more equipment slots from Korok seeds, upgrading equipment at fairies, getting better armor and arrows from shops, getting better weapons from shrines, chests & monsters, getting more food & ingredients from the environment and cooking stuff etc.

 
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Owns a PSVR (Check)

Is Into Star Trek (I went through a phase)

I also live somewhat locally in case you wanted to rent out the Nassau Coliseum (Or we could just play online).

 
The Kevin Bacon interview was one of the most cringeworthy things I have ever listened too. What an awful host.
For real. How does that guy have a radio show? Kevin says he doesn't want to talk about it and the interviewer does his absolute best to make it as awkward as possible by not bringing up another topic. Was he waiting for Kevin to ask him a fucking question?

 
The only issue with a handheld or home only version of the switch is the "HD" rumble, waggle games won't work if the joy-cons are attached to the system.

Also, holy shit at the interview clip at the end! Haha.

 
bread's done
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