Star Wars Thread - Episode IX Releasing 12/20/19

gamegirlpocket

gamegirlpocket

hope rides alone
Feedback
42 (100%)
qK2m493.jpg


Updating the thread now for the new film, releasing 12/20/2019. Once the film is out, don't read new posts unless you've seen it and/or don't care about spoilers.

First teaser trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adzYW5DZoWs

Final Trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qn_spdM5Zg

 
Last edited by a moderator:
First!

But seriously, I'll start by giving my overall philosophy on the movie and the series as a whole. There's a lot of crazy shit happening in Star Wars, and a lot of stuff that doesn't really make sense. I think everyone who does or has loved Star Wars knows that and with new films, books, etc. either makes the choice to overlook things or make a big deal of them.

I'll give an example: The Holdo Maneuver. It makes sense to wonder why it's never been done before, but consider that both as the Rebels and the Resistance, resources were always very limited for the "good" side. They're always scrappy groups operating from secret bases that have been thrown together and whatever tech they can find. Also, characters frequently complain about their hyperdrives needing service, going out, etc. It makes me believe that the tech is not only expensive, but often faulty. Finally, something like an X-Wing wouldn't do the damage that the Resistance ship does in XIII to a Star Destroyer or the Death Star, right? So that's good enough for me.

I did have issues with pacing, and like a lot of people I would have liked the movie to have a little more fan-service, as neither the Kylo-Luke fight nor the Finn-Phasma fight came to satisfying conclusions IMO. But that's me being a bit selfish.

 
Theory #1: (Note, the director shot this down already by stating he killed Snoke so Kylo character growth wasn't held back). Snoke was using force projection, like Luke did in the climax, or he has been a dark side ghost this whole time. Luke looked younger when he projected himself, and if you compare images of Snoke from TFA to TLJ he looks younger and less scarred. His line to Kylo to strike down his true enemy sounded like a test to me. He could have been a dark side ghost, as the movie used force ghosts a lot and emphasized the balance between light and dark. Perhaps that's why he could force slam Hux around via "hologram"?

Theory #2: Kylo lied to Rey about her parents, feeding on her fear that her parents were nobodies who abandoned her. I personally like the idea of Rey being a new character, as no one bothers asking who Yoda's parents were or how strong Mace Windu's uncle was in the force.

Misc Improvements: Give Luke his green lightsaber, since it's just an illusion anyways.

Give Benico del Toro a line about losing his pendant in a bet, establishing him as the codebreaker Maz sent them to find.

Have Rose and Finn land on the beach, see the casino, and immediately get arrested. They can talk about war profitteering in jail, and you can even keep the prequel-reminding chase scene. Just cut most of that arc, as the runtime is too long and that section is the weakest.


Overall, I really liked the movie. I especially liked Luke's explanation of the force, and the rebel icon rings and underground resistance.
 
I agree the pacing could have been better. During the casino romp, I was getting Clone Wars vibes and thinking it was silly and just a CG fest. Then the third act started, and I was on the edge of my seat for the rest of the movie.

I really, really love the theme of letting go. It's not obvious initially, but Luke casually disposing of his lightsaber is a microcosm of the entire film. Kylo Ren and Yoda both insist that the way forward is to let go of the past, destroy it if you must, with immensely different ways going about it. It's a great example of how the Light and Dark Side complement each other, and the ambiguity in good/evil which has often been absent from past entries in this franchise. Most importantly, our two main leads (Luke and Rey) are struggling with it.

Luke insists the Jedi Order must die with him, but has preserved the ancient texts and hesitates when he has the torch. Rey feels distraught and hopeless when she goes looking for answers and only sees herself in the reflection. Kylo / Ben Solo stands down instead of firing on his mother, only for his troops to do it and he becomes more conflicted. Even killing Snoak is a letting-go moment from a storytelling perspective, since we were all probably expecting to learn more about him and for him to be an antagonist throughout these films. It's a slightly nihilistic approach and it is just what the series needed, IMHO.

Then there's failure. Everyone is a fuck-up. Our heroes barely succeed, and they make bad calls.

-Finn was going to desert the Rebellion, giving into his own fear.

-Luke gave into fear for a hot second and it ruined everything he had built, driving Ben to the dark side.

-Poe's mutiny is a failure.

-Finn's attempt to disable the tracking system is a failure.

-The transport escape plan essentially fails, with only a fraction surviving.

It's all a huge departure from TFA, but also, the theme of conflict is consistent throughout, and it's not just for Ben anymore. It's actually pretty brilliant and way more character depth than I expected from Star Wars. I'm seeing it again next week with my sister, and I'm looking forward to rewatching with all of this in mind.

 
captbrannigan said:
Theory #1: (Note, the director shot this down already by stating he killed Snoke so Kylo character growth wasn't held back). Snoke was using force projection, like Luke did in the climax, or he has been a dark side ghost this whole time. Luke looked younger when he projected himself, and if you compare images of Snoke from TFA to TLJ he looks younger and less scarred. His line to Kylo to strike down his true enemy sounded like a test to me. He could have been a dark side ghost, as the movie used force ghosts a lot and emphasized the balance between light and dark. Perhaps that's why he could force slam Hux around via "hologram"?

Theory #2: Kylo lied to Rey about her parents, feeding on her fear that her parents were nobodies who abandoned her. I personally like the idea of Rey being a new character, as no one bothers asking who Yoda's parents were or how strong Mace Windu's uncle was in the force.

Misc Improvements: Give Luke his green lightsaber, since it's just an illusion anyways.

Give Benico del Toro a line about losing his pendant in a bet, establishing him as the codebreaker Maz sent them to find.

Have Rose and Finn land on the beach, see the casino, and immediately get arrested. They can talk about war profitteering in jail, and you can even keep the prequel-reminding chase scene. Just cut most of that arc, as the runtime is too long and that section is the weakest.


Overall, I really liked the movie. I especially liked Luke's explanation of the force, and the rebel icon rings and underground resistance.
Click to expand...
Re: Snoak, he was pretty clearly cut in half, whereas Luke's force projection withstood the laser barrage and subsequent crater. I like that Snoak is just a boring old typical evil Sith who we aren't going to spend a lot of time with, a stepping stone for Ben's development.

The whole exchange with Snoak to 'strike down your true enemy' was fucking brilliant. Snoak read Ben's intention to strike out and kill his enemy, but misread who that enemy was. Ben likely felt that not only because he wanted to save Rey, but he also saw Snoak as an obstacle to his own desire for power, as he clearly hates being told what to do or second-guessed. He makes for a really complex villain.

A friend shared this article, which is a little long, but expands on the point of Kylo being complex and how important that is.

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/movies/2017/12/15/16780348/star-wars-last-jedi-kylo-ren-adam-driver-movie-villains

The big-top movie franchises, upon which so much of the scaffolding of the film industry is hanging, have one big problem: The villains suck. Let’s have a quiz. Quickly: What was the name of the villain in Doctor Strange? What about in The Hobbit? How about Justice League, which was released just one month ago? The answer: It doesn’t matter. These characters (Kaecilius, Azog, and Steppenwolf, for the record) make their films feel disposable, like links on a chain tied to an anvil at the bottom of the ocean. Keep following their stories, tracking their continuity, and eventually you’ll drown. In fact, the studios are counting on it. This is not a new problem. For nearly 60 years, James Bond films have subsisted on a rotisserie of malevolent evil geniuses questing to conquer the world because … well, because they want to. Likewise the mythical monsters of J.R.R. Tolkien or Transformers or the villains in The Fast and the Furious series or Mission: Impossible films. What do these villains want? Gold? Power? To take back what they believe to be rightfully theirs? Perhaps. We never really find out. Marvel’s Thanos, billed as the big bad of next summer’s Avengers: Infinity War, is a cosmic warlord affectionately referred to as the Mad Titan—he is purple, portrayed by a CGI-rendered Josh Brolin, and sports a skin-goatee that appears to have been diced by a mandoline. He’s ridiculous, already a joke. Star Wars’ Snoke, like Emperor Palpatine before him, is another manifestation of evil that makes no sense to us—he’s a slimy, scarred, aging creature of unknown origin that small children will describe as “really mean.” He is a cipher of terror, an excuse for the brilliant motion-capture performer Andy Serkis to try out a new snarl. That’s it.
Click to expand...
 
captbrannigan said:
Misc Improvements: Give Luke his green lightsaber, since it's just an illusion anyways.
Click to expand...
I took it as foreshadowing that things were not what they appeared since that lightsaber had already been destroyed. Just like Luke's appearance was off, he looked younger, cleaner, or how Luke left no footstep in the sand or the lightsabers never touched. Luke pulled off the mother of all Jedi mind tricks and Rian Johnson was just dropping hints here and there.
 
I saw it on Friday and then again on Sunday and I thoroughly enjoyed both viewings. I've been reading op-eds and other articles about the movie all weekend and I really enjoyed that Ringer article you posted above. If people were complaining that TFA played it too safe then this movie definitely took enough risks for two films. I'm just going to focus on a the third act from the film instead of trying to evaluate everything all at once.

Throne Room Fight Scene:

So that was the best Jedi battle that they've ever shot. The wide pan as the Praetorian Guards surround Rey & Kylo surround them both leading to them just having the type of "laser sword" fight that shows an audience doesn't need CGI flippy stuff. It was really an incredible moment, leading right up to the Kylo asking Rey to join him so they can rule the galaxy together. Kill everything that's old, she "knows" her parents were just a pair of nobodies... take his hand.

Holdo (Laura Dern) suicide jump:

I don't think I've ever held my breath during a scene in a movie before but when the movie goes silent and that fleet gets devastated in a single bold stroke. This sort of thing works because Hux and the Imperial fleet believe that the ship is retreating in an attempt to have it followed by them. They had already drawn fire to the shuttles so her ship wasn't going to get bombarded and destroyed once she was close enough for their weapons to actually do damage to the ship. I dunno... I thought it was brilliant but I sort of wish Leia had made that sacrifice now given Carrie's untimely death.

The Jedi Texts:

Am I going crazy or did I spot the books on the Falcon at the end of the movie? Finn gets a blanket out for Rose and the books are in that same drawer... right!? I didn't notice it on the first viewing but a friend had mentioned it so I kept my eye open for them. That will be interesting for the third movie to reveal that she has them after Luke believes them to have been destroyed.

I understand that I'm just rambling here...

 
gamegirlpocket said:
The whole exchange with Snoak to 'strike down your true enemy' was fucking brilliant. Snoak read Ben's intention to strike out and kill his enemy, but misread who that enemy was. Ben likely felt that not only because he wanted to save Rey, but he also saw Snoak as an obstacle to his own desire for power, as he clearly hates being told what to do or second-guessed. He makes for a really complex villain.

A friend shared this article, which is a little long, but expands on the point of Kylo being complex and how important that is.

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/movies/2017/12/15/16780348/star-wars-last-jedi-kylo-ren-adam-driver-movie-villains
Click to expand...
Yes, the ambiguity in Snoke's interpretation of Kylo's thoughts was what lead to the big bad guy's fall. No one cared how Palpatine came to power or who the emperor was in ANH, or ESB and those who did care didn't get a full answer in RotJ. We eventually got an answer in the form of the prequel trilogy, books, comics, and video games. I think we will get our answer about Snoke sometime down the line.
 
uglyteradon said:
The Jedi Texts:
Am I going crazy or did I spot the books on the Falcon at the end of the movie? Finn gets a blanket out for Rose and the books are in that same drawer... right!? I didn't notice it on the first viewing but a friend had mentioned it so I kept my eye open for them. That will be interesting for the third movie to reveal that she has them after Luke believes them to have been destroyed...
Click to expand...
Nope, those wore the texts. I saw them the first time I watched the movie. The second time I watched it, Yoda's line about Rey having all the knowledge she needs (or something like that) makes so much more sense.
 
I really liked the guards in the throne room and their weapons. They reminded me about how frustrated I get whenever the knights of ren are brought up because as far as I remember we've only ever seen them for a couple seconds just standing in a flashback. I feel like they're mentioned so much and we know very little about their backstory or what happened to them. Maybe I just need to pay more attention and missed something?

I hope to see the movie in Imax once it isn't as busy.
 
Forgot to mention- 

Luke's last words to Leia as he carries out what he probably knows will be his final act: "No one is ever really gone." They wrote and filmed that not knowing Carrie Fisher was going to die, but it was the perfect send-off for her. I was so stunned, I almost cried. 

Apparently she wrote that scene, too, which means she basically gave a good-old-fashioned Jedi goodbye. 

 
I read most responses but some are past my limit of length for reading a forum post.  I'll start by saying I really enjoyed the movie and consider myself a lover of great movies, obscure, indie, etc.

I feel like the majority of things that the Last Jedi director did, allowed each character to become multi-dimensional and deeper, which I greatly enjoyed.  So Kylo Ren isn't just completely horrible, Luke Skywalker isn't some ready to be Obi Wan Kenobi character, Finn wants to quit and escape when things get tough, Poe goes against his own leadership, and so on.  The jokes were funny, Leia's comment about her hair, Rey asking Kylo Ren to put on a shirt, the stupid furry things shaming Chewie.  I had a lot of fun in the movie, I didn't want it to end and I greatly enjoyed it.

 
It's also worth mentioning that critic's reviews and CinemaScores (polls taken of people exiting the theater) both rated the movie basically 9/10. The bad "user reviews" could be from people that never even watched the movie. Everyone I've talked to had a mostly positive outlook.
 
For me the film felt off, in the sense that Star Wars has always been about grand adventures and was more about the journey than the characters necessarily. I tend to enjoy films more at a surface level than dig really deep for hidden meaning or character motives, etc so I feel like this was more a film for people that like to dissect a story/character rather than just enjoy the ride.

That said, I find most of the new cast to be incredibly boring and hollow, with no real time to build them up since they have to share the screen with old, established heroes that continue to steal the spotlight. Poe, Finn and his new "girlfriend", all fall flat because we're too focused on the past characters, that as pointed out, are finally being let go of as a theme. Rey and Kylo are the exception to this, but the movies move so fast we barely have a chance to get a sense for what they've been through in the past.

On that note while Luke may be an impulsive person, I found his moment of weakness to be very jammed into a plot point for the sake of connecting the dots. It's plausible, but just didn't sit right with me. Luke's depressed mood tends to be in tune with the film's and made it hard to really enjoy what little adventure there was to be had. I get it. The rebel's have had it relatively easy for a "rebellion" up to this point and had to finally be knocked down a few pegs for there to be a true resistance. I just felt this one focused a little too much on the downswing and forgot to just have fun exploring the galaxy. That's also why I felt like the humor was a little different this time around and at times a little over the top but understandably so to lighten the mood.

All in all, still better than Rogue One but I'm still waiting for an epic to parallel Empire Strikes Back. I just hope we can expect more Porg greatness in the next film because Chewwy and those damn little birds are the sole reason I'm looking forward to a Lego game. :)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
With this being the 9th Star Wars movie they needed to keep it fresh and give us something new.

They did jam pack it with "suicide" runs/missions/acts/etc which seemed to happen on both sides.

I like what they did with Rey where it felt like you can be a nobody and become a somebody.

I liked it, I think they can go places and do things that'll keep the Star Wars saga going long after the Marvel Age dies out.

 
w00dm4nEXE said:
I like what they did with Rey where it felt like you can be a nobody and become a somebody.
Click to expand...
I felt like they really hit that home with the little kid at the end who uses the force to pick his broom up. You don't have to be the son of the big bad to be a hero.

I still think Kylo was trying to manipulate Rey, so I think there's some wiggle room to make Rey's parents someone already established. I hope they don't tho.

I do wish they had answered more of the questions raised in TFA, specifically what is Rey's real name? Rey is the name on the helmet she wore for funsies in TFA, and it seems pretty absurd to presume she found a helmet with her name on it.
 
I was disappointed, but I need to watch it again. The pacing was just off to me (space chase, Rey's "training", casino side quest), and Finn and Poe's arcs didn't do it for me. Finn had basically the same arc as TFA, just less screen time and there is no sense of chemistry between he and Rose. Seems like they're still leaving relationship possibilities open between Finn and Rose, Rey or Poe. Feels almost like mass effect! 😂 Poe could've been privy to the plan from the start and his failed mutiny wouldn't have even happened. And wtf with Phasma and Snoke? I know, they're trying to build Kylo's arc with Snoke dying but come on, I wanted to know more about him and the knights of Ren. Phasma is more useless to this story than Boba Fett to the OT.

I can appreciate the nuance and character flaws that Rian was going for, but dammit I also just wanted to see Jedi master Luke wreck some people. His force projection scene was awesome, but then having him just die like that...ugh. I still believe Rey has something more to her bloodline than is being disclosed. She's way too powerful to just be a nobody child of drunks, and it really weakens her believability as a character if Kylo was telling the truth.
 
I agree it didn't feel 100% like a star wars movie, the canto side quest was a waste of time since it didn't amount to anything, maybe to set up broom kid? haha and there wasn't any fan service but still I really enjoyed it a lot. It sits pretty high on my SW list.

darthbster31 said:
I still believe Rey has something more to her bloodline than is being disclosed. She's way too powerful to just be a nobody child of drunks, and it really weakens her believability as a character if Kylo was telling the truth.
Click to expand...
Why can't she be a nobody? people are born more stronger/powerful than others. Just like in the jedi order. there wasn't any lineage. they were taken from a young age from random families and trained and some were stronger than others. Rey just happens to be strong in the force plus the force always tries to be balanced so there's has to be a counter balance to kylo.

 
Yeah, I think that's what Rian is ultimately going for, but it just feels cheap to me. She has less training than Luke but she's potentially going to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy? Meh.
 
darthbster31 said:
Yeah, I think that's what Rian is ultimately going for, but it just feels cheap to me. She has less training than Luke but she's potentially going to be the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy? Meh.
Click to expand...
Lol that is for the sake of not retreading old ground I think, but it does raise eyebrows. This is where more backstory and explanation was needed because it's just not believable to most people that she can just be a naturally born Jedi. Oh and don't get me started on the Trials. She can be a Jedi yet never having actually trained or taken the traditional trials or learned to control her fear. . .riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. These movies just kinda shit on all the Jedi lore lol.

 
Jodou said:
Lol that is for the sake of not retreading old ground I think, but it does raise eyebrows. This is where more backstory and explanation was needed because it's just not believable to most people that she can just be a naturally born Jedi. Oh and don't get me started on the Trials. She can be a Jedi yet never having actually trained or taken the traditional trials or learned to control her fear. . .riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. These movies just kinda shit on all the Jedi lore lol.
Click to expand...
Well, to be fair, they were kind of written into a corner from the beginning, as by the end of Ep IV you have two Sith and one Jedi alive and by the end of RotJ you're down to one Jedi with a supposedly Force-sensitive sister. They're going to have to build up the ranks somehow and in the meantime, you don't really have the resources available to give Jedi the training they used to receive back when they were thriving. So should they just have Kylo and Rey be weak or just explain that they're both just really gifted naturally and move on?

I think that the way they've started is debatably more interesting than taking us 30 years into the future and Luke has a successful school, there are 5-10 fully trained Jedi running around, etc.

I think if anything, it would have been cool for TFA to begin with Kylo Ren as the heir apparent to Luke and show his turn. It would take away some reveals later on and he and Rey would have to be similar age, but it would have been a cool way to do it.

Ultimately though, I'm happy with how it's gone so far.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I enjoyed The Last Jedi quite a bit. Not everything was perfect but overall I liked where it went.

I particularly did't like how the Finn Rose connection felt forced. It felt like some higher up in corporate read/reviewed the script and Said "But there's no love story. We need a love story." So the writer(s) made it happen.

Any way on to one of the topics I really wanted to get to ...

On Force Sensitivity And Rey’s Genetics
I believe that it was well explained in Episode I, although never really expanded upon afterwards, that force sensitivity, and thus aptitude, is directly proportional to midi-chlorian count. Anakin is noted to have the highest count ever [20,000], even higher than that of master Yoda. We also know that midi-chlorians exist in all living cells and can thus be past on genetically. We don’t know all the details of the genetic functioning and passage thru lineages. Clearly it has passed thru the Skywalker lineage. But Anakin had no father and Shmi had no evident force ability; and in general Jedi do not have children so we have no other known evidence of how this works outside of the Skywalker lineage. What we do know is that non-Jedi [i.e. insufficiently high midi-chlorian count or sufficiently high but untrained] clearly can have children with sufficiently high midi-chlorian count to become Jedi – that’s where all the little padawans come from.

So where does this leave Rey? Where does it play in to Episode VIII? We don’t know what the minimum threshold on midi-chlorian count to be sufficiently attuned to the force to be Sith/Jedi. But pragmatically speaking Rey’s got enough. Perhaps her father and/or mother alone did not have enough of a midi-chlorian count to be sufficiently force sensitive (clearly, they had some as midi-chlorians exist in all living things), but whatever the genetic combination it gave Rey a high enough count. More than enough apparently. We’re also assuming that she had parents. Plural. Rey speaks of her family in vague memories, and we don’t know how factual or trustworthy Kylo Ren’s statement is.

Training ability, well that’s another issue all together.

I have some thoughts on the parallels between Luke’s path and that of Rey, how they’re trained, how they face a trial in light of there being no formal Jedi order, and how they move from padawan to Jedi Knight.
 
Right, but Luke still trained under a master and completed his trial by facing his father. Rey has just skipped to the end it seems and that's just silly to me. But yes, for the sake of not wasting time or retreading old ground, they're just accelerating her's and Kylo's story to match the pace of these new films.

 
The Finn/Rose thing did feel forced, even if I don't mind Rose as a character.

After listening to the spoiler CAGCast, I do agree it was silly that they could send a ship out on a mission to Casio Planet but not 1) get fuel or 2) find more help or send distress signals. What would have been cooler:

if Finn actually left in an escape pod before shit goes totally awry, picks up Poe's distress signal, and comes back to help. Rose could have gone with him, they could still have an adventure. It would have just felt more logical in terms of the conflicts happening in the film.

 
Jodou said:
Right, but Luke still trained under a master and completed his trial by facing his father. Rey has just skipped to the end it seems and that's just silly to me. But yes, for the sake of not wasting time or retreading old ground, they're just accelerating her's and Kylo's story to match the pace of these new films.
Click to expand...
Have to disagree.

Luke is now a Jedi master. At the end of episode V / beginning of episode VI Luke is Jedi Knight Luke. In fact when he returns to Yoda he thinks he needs more training to become a Jedi. Not quite sure when he officially becomes Jedi Master Luke. The end of Episode VI after he assists Vader in turning? Sometime between VI and VII when he is ready to take on his first student? But he is clearly a Jedi Master by the time Rey joins him. That's where Rey gets her training from a master. I will admit that I don't think this was fleshed out very well in the movie. I was expecting Rey to fail to raise the X-wing out of the water, and then Luke to show her how. A kind of redemption moment for Luke / look how far he's come moment. The Last Jedi failed to put Rey's training on the level of Yoda training Luke.

Just as Luke went to the dark part of Degobah so Rey goes to the dark sink hole on Ahch-To. When Luke strikes down his vision of Vader it is his own face revealed beneath the mask. Perhaps this means he is afraid of being like Vader. Or perhaps it's a visual reference to their father-son connection. It's interesting that when Rey has her vision in the sink hole she again sees herself as Luke saw himself during his vision. The similarity here, IMHO, is that in general a Jedi must learn that they are not 100% light but must control their dark side in order maximize their connection to the light side of the force. Failing to do so leads to the dark side [or perhaps in Luke's case enough to lose a student to the dark side]. I believe this conquering of one's personal dark side is a profound turning point for a Jedi in general and in a very personal sense.

Facing Kylo was her test. Kylo made the same offer Vader made to Luke - join me and together we will rule the galaxy. Luke gives her a warning just as Yoda gave Luke a warning when he leaves to face Vader. And so Rey is now Jedi Knight Rey. The texts will help make her Jedi Master Rey.
 
ubiquetous said:
I will admit that I don't think this was fleshed out very well in the movie.
Click to expand...
See, that's exactly my point as I don't feel like Rey really trained under Luke. It was kinda like she already knew what to do and was just going through the motions.

I think what fucks with everything the most is the conflicting passage of time presented. We have Rey off on another world and "training" which should believably take weeks, if not months, then leaving to face Kylo puts her on the same timeline as the events elsewhere. Yet we have this space race going where a Mon Calamari Cruiser is running out of fuel very quickly. That and Finn/Rose's sidequest might be a few days at best, so all of them meeting up after shit goes down means that Rey wasn't gone long at all.

So basically the movie is telling me that Rey finds Luke, talks about shit, trains, goes down a rabbit hole, steals the Jedi texts, and faces her trial -- all in the span of a few days. Yeah, fucking bullshit lol.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jodou said:
See, that's exactly my point as I don't feel like Rey really trained under Luke. It was kinda like she already knew what to do and was just going through the motions.

I think what fucks with everything the most is the conflicting passage of time presented. We have Rey off on another world and "training" which should believably take weeks, if not months, then leaving to face Kylo puts her on the same timeline as the events elsewhere. Yet we have this space race going where a Mon Calamari Cruiser is running out of fuel very quickly. That and Finn/Rose's sidequest might be a few days at best, so all of them meeting up after shit goes down means that Rey wasn't gone long at all.

So basically the movie is telling me that Rey finds Luke, talks about shit, trains, goes down a rabbit hole, steals the Jedi texts, and faces her trial -- all in the span of a few days. Yeah, fucking bullshit lol.
Click to expand...
Agreed span of time was not well done. It wasn't the same as when Luke left to train, everybody else went off to do their thing, and then Luke sensed his friends were in danger and felt he had to leave to help.

But given this, it must be an equivalent level of bullshit that with 0 training Rey force pulls a light sabre and defeats Kylo, who trained under Luke for months/years and trained under Snoke, in a light saber battle without ever having wielded one before in TFA.
 
Jodou said:
See, that's exactly my point as I don't feel like Rey really trained under Luke. It was kinda like she already knew what to do and was just going through the motions.

I think what fucks with everything the most is the conflicting passage of time presented. We have Rey off on another world and "training" which should believably take weeks, if not months, then leaving to face Kylo puts her on the same timeline as the events elsewhere. Yet we have this space race going where a Mon Calamari Cruiser is running out of fuel very quickly. That and Finn/Rose's sidequest might be a few days at best, so all of them meeting up after shit goes down means that Rey wasn't gone long at all.

So basically the movie is telling me that Rey finds Luke, talks about shit, trains, goes down a rabbit hole, steals the Jedi texts, and faces her trial -- all in the span of a few days. Yeah, fucking bullshit lol.
Click to expand...
Rey arrives on Luke's island at the end of TFA. Some unknown amount of time, weeks or months, pass before the opening of TLJ with the assault on the rebel forces. I assumed Rey's sideplot on the island mostly took place in the events leading up to the main plot, and they just didn't pace it well.

And honestly, Luke's time with Yoda in Empire isn't very well represented. No one knows if he was actually there for days, weeks, or months, and he left before Yoda thought he was ready. That last point, right there, fits kinda nicely with the idea that he tried to train more Jedi but wasn't ready himself. He didn't lead a life of discipline the way most did, and gave into his fears over Ben. At least, it all feels congruent to me.

 
gamegirlpocket said:
Rey arrives on Luke's island at the end of TFA. Some unknown amount of time, weeks or months, pass before the opening of TLJ with the assault on the rebel forces. I assumed Rey's sideplot on the island mostly took place in the events leading up to the main plot, and they just didn't pace it well.

And honestly, Luke's time with Yoda in Empire isn't very well represented. No one knows if he was actually there for days, weeks, or months, and he left before Yoda thought he was ready. That last point, right there, fits kinda nicely with the idea that he tried to train more Jedi but wasn't ready himself. He didn't lead a life of discipline the way most did, and gave into his fears over Ben. At least, it all feels congruent to me.
Click to expand...
TLJ seems to take place pretty much immediately after TFA, with Finn beginning TLJ recovering from the wounds he suffered at the end of TFA. Perhaps Finn was in that medical pod for a little while before TLJ begins, but I don't think much time had passed between films. When Finn wakes up, he wants to find Rey.

Before Finn and Rose went to find the code breaker, wasn't it said the main cruiser had 18 hours of fuel left? That limits the passage of time for the middle of the movie.

The timing of Luke's Dagobah training in ESB is also not very well conveyed on screen. I don't know if it's official canon any longer, or if it even ever was, but after escaping the Imperial fleet, the Falcon's trip to Bespin took weeks, perhaps longer, on its backup hyperdrive. I've seen some mentions online that the passage of time is better established in the novelization, but I have no idea where my copy is. I remember an extra scene where Yoda has Luke face those small floating droids that he first trained against in the Falcon in ANH, dealing with 3 at a time, then exhausted, Yoda has him deal with at least 5. Not as interesting as the extra scene in ROTJ where the Emperor questions Luke about his training after Obi-Wan's death.

 
gamegirlpocket said:
Rey arrives on Luke's island at the end of TFA. Some unknown amount of time, weeks or months, pass before the opening of TLJ with the assault on the rebel forces. I assumed Rey's sideplot on the island mostly took place in the events leading up to the main plot, and they just didn't pace it well.

And honestly, Luke's time with Yoda in Empire isn't very well represented. No one knows if he was actually there for days, weeks, or months, and he left before Yoda thought he was ready. That last point, right there, fits kinda nicely with the idea that he tried to train more Jedi but wasn't ready himself. He didn't lead a life of discipline the way most did, and gave into his fears over Ben. At least, it all feels congruent to me.
Click to expand...
I think it was said TLJ happens immediately right after TFA; a couple of days to no more than 1 week.

 
gamegirlpocket said:
Rey arrives on Luke's island at the end of TFA. Some unknown amount of time, weeks or months, pass before the opening of TLJ with the assault on the rebel forces. I assumed Rey's sideplot on the island mostly took place in the events leading up to the main plot, and they just didn't pace it well.

And honestly, Luke's time with Yoda in Empire isn't very well represented. No one knows if he was actually there for days, weeks, or months, and he left before Yoda thought he was ready. That last point, right there, fits kinda nicely with the idea that he tried to train more Jedi but wasn't ready himself. He didn't lead a life of discipline the way most did, and gave into his fears over Ben. At least, it all feels congruent to me.
Click to expand...
I was thinking the same thing regarding the time synchronicity between Rey's storyline and that of the Rebels.

At the end of TFA Rey hands the light sabre to Luke, which he takes and promptly throws away at the beginning of TLJ.

At the end of TFA the Rebel base was in a deciduous forest with a temperate climate. If I remember correctly, there was snow on the groud during the evacuation. I remember thinking "oh they're just gonna copy the evacuation of the base on Hoth from ESB." The change in seasonal climate seems to indicate some passage of time on the Rebel storyline.

From script writing standpoint this all could have been rectified with a line or two. Something like Finn saying "If we leave Rey won't be able find us. She's been gone for months (or weeks)." Then Leia shows the bracelet with the homing beacon. And after Luke throws the light saber away Rey says something like "we need you. I traveled 3 days at light speed to get here." Them we could all be "oh days for Rey, but weeks/months for the Rebels.

I don't know why Disney doesn't just sequester Joss Whedon, Kevin Smith, and Paton Oswalt in a locked penthouse suite to review these scripts and solve these minor plot points.
 
Re: the timeline, I also assumed that Finn had been out a while healing in that stasis pod thingamajiggy and that Rey was on the island for a while, though usually doing her own thing instead of training with Luke. It's clear right away that more time has passed for the rest of the cast than Rey as Rey's story picks up exactly where it left off, but as others have said, it would have been helpful (and extremely easy) to point out explicitly how much time had passed for everyone else.

Razzel said:
I was dying laughing watching this vid. Contains major spoilers though FYI
Click to expand...
I liked TLJ, but that was pretty funny.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
That video was spot on and articulated every major problem with the movie better than I ever could. It really doesn't hold up at all once you poke all the oh-so-obvious holes in it. The point about Rose on Crait is something I hadn't even considered but is a really big one.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I was just reviewing the timeline of the Star Wars films as regards what years the events took place with respect to the BBY/ABY calendar [BBY = Before the Battle of Yavin & ABY =After the Battle of Yavin].

Here's what I figured out:

* Anakin dies when he's ~45
* Luke dies when he's 53
* Quai Gon dies when he's 60 (still want to know why his body didn't vanish when he died. Why is he the only jedi on a funeral pyre?)
* Obi-Wan dies when he's 57
* Yoda dies when he's 900 years old.

Yoda wins. Yoda wins.

(In the above dies = becomes one with the force)
 
The question about why Qui-Gon was burned at the end of Phantom Menace instead of vanishing was asked a lot back in '99.  The explanation, which, again, may have been replaced by Disney's new canon, was that the Jedi didn't know how to become one with the Force in the vanishing manner until Qui-Gon's spirit instructed Yoda how to do it.  During Attack of the Clones, when Yoda felt Anakin attack the Tuskin Raiders while rescuing his mother, you can hear Qui-Gon's voice.  This confused Yoda, since it implied Qui-Gon was able to keep his identity after death, something unknown to the Jedi at that point.  IIRC, the scene near the end of ROTS where Senator Organa tells Yoda that Obi-Wan is arriving with Padme had some extra at the beginning, where Yoda's meditation is communicating with Qui-Gon.  I don't remember if that bit was filmed and deleted from the final cut, only in the script / novelization or just communicated by official sources.

The real question is how did Anakin appear at the end of ROTJ, unless he got help from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 
Bloomy said:
The question about why Qui-Gon was burned at the end of Phantom Menace instead of vanishing was asked a lot back in '99. The explanation, which, again, may have been replaced by Disney's new canon, was that the Jedi didn't know how to become one with the Force in the vanishing manner until Qui-Gon's spirit instructed Yoda how to do it. During Attack of the Clones, when Yoda felt Anakin attack the Tuskin Raiders while rescuing his mother, you can hear Qui-Gon's voice. This confused Yoda, since it implied Qui-Gon was able to keep his identity after death, something unknown to the Jedi at that point. IIRC, the scene near the end of ROTS where Senator Organa tells Yoda that Obi-Wan is arriving with Padme had some extra at the beginning, where Yoda's meditation is communicating with Qui-Gon. I don't remember if that bit was filmed and deleted from the final cut, only in the script / novelization or just communicated by official sources.

The real question is how did Anakin appear at the end of ROTJ, unless he got help from Obi-Wan and Yoda.
Click to expand...
I remember hearing Quai Gon's voice when Anakin rescues his mother. And Yoda states that he will show Obi-Wan how to convene with "an old friend" while they are on Senator Organa's ship. I gues it was mostly the disappearing body I wasn't clear about. If that was not a learned technique at that time in okay with that.

So, Quai Gon learns the consciousness retention and voice communication portion, then Yoda and Obi-Wan take it to the vanoshing body & force ghost level? I'm down with that explanation. So could a Jedi consciousness (Yoda or Obi-Wan) contact another sufficiently strong jedi consciousness and show it (Anakin) how to convene with the other side?

Thanks Bloomy.
 
Saw it today and my honest real disappointment in the movie was that Smoak wasn't over 50 feet tall like his hologram in TFA implies. Besides that it was Star Wars and I don't understand the people bitching about how it "raped their childhood" or whatever.

 
ubiquetous said:
I remember hearing Quai Gon's voice when Anakin rescues his mother. And Yoda states that he will show Obi-Wan how to convene with "an old friend" while they are on Senator Organa's ship. I gues it was mostly the disappearing body I wasn't clear about. If that was not a learned technique at that time in okay with that.

So, Quai Gon learns the consciousness retention and voice communication portion, then Yoda and Obi-Wan take it to the vanoshing body & force ghost level? I'm down with that explanation. So could a Jedi consciousness (Yoda or Obi-Wan) contact another sufficiently strong jedi consciousness and show it (Anakin) how to convene with the other side?

Thanks Bloomy.
Click to expand...
What Bloomy said is correct. Qui gon didn't finish is training that's why he couldn't manifest his ghost, only his voice. Qui gon instructed Yoda to go to Dagobah(that's how yoda learn about Dagobah) and would tell him where to go next to learn how to manifest his identity after death. All this is explained in the final 3 episodes of clone wars, which is cannon. Everyone should see it. He goes through some weird stuff and meets darth bane.

 
M2003 said:
What Bloomy said is correct. Qui gon didn't finish is training that's why he couldn't manifest his ghost, only his voice. Qui gon instructed Yoda to go to Dagobah(that's how yoda learn about Dagobah) and would tell him where to go next to learn how to manifest his identity after death. All this is explained in the final 3 episodes of clone wars, which is cannon. Everyone should see it. He goes through some weird stuff and meets darth bane.
Click to expand...
Cool. I think I only made it to season 2. There are 6 seasons correct? So I have a ways to go. Might be my new meal time 30 minute tv catch up show. Or I might binge it.
 
Was over at cousins and they were going to go see it and asked if I wanted to come along. I warned them it was a polarizing film but being a big Star Wars fan decided to take them up on their offer. We saw it in IMAX 3D, although not true IMAX but was fairly well presented presentation of the movie.
giphy.gif


Yeah so I felt like some action scenes were amazing and then some scenes it was a fan fiction free foreall.

Soooo, minor scene - as most of the other stuff have been talked about in this thread - how did Leia not know the shuttle coming in was friendly. Wouldn't her power with the force give her a friendly premonition? I mean she even says they're coming as like she knows who were going to be going under the big massive door. Then everyone shoots at the hull and they just put up their hands and say don't shoot... Oh fuck, a blaster just shot my freakin' hand off!

Also that whole Rey "training" sequence was horse shit and shits on years of SW lore/media. That and Rey is super powerful but if it is true that her parents are nobody special - on the Force side of thing - then that's a big slap in the face to all the previous SW fans. I hope it was a lie, if they reveal more for the last Episode and have conclusions to the many plot holes in Episode 8 I'm gonna laugh because only SW would try to do that shit. You know Jumper tried to stretch shit out and yeah there's no Jumper 2 or Jumper 3 (it was originally envisioned as a trilogy) with multiple reasons why the film didn't work was because of the editing that kept the stuff you would have cared about out of the film. Obviously Star Wars has more leeway but ultimately Disney will just alienate fans (as they've already done with VIII).

Soooo, Rey is super powerful and without any proper training on how to withhold her temptation to the Dark side (with the terror in Luke's eyes when he observes this, he's thinking oh no here we go again). The bridge between Rey & Kylo was created via Snoke - who doesn't see his ultimate demise but the emperor saw that Luke would kill him - and then later on they're still seeing into each other's perspectives so what, once you open it you can't turn it off lol. Rey is showering and turns around with a pervy Kylo looking at her. Hey! lol wtf.

The casino scene felt like a forced we need to show more of the galaxy's creatures and species (as we're too human heavy with Rey/Luke/Kylo/Hux/Resistance/Leia. I agree a lot of that disposition could have been served with some more dialogue in the prison cell but I felt they added that all in for excitement. Following a Jedi around/ training montages and the slowly-moving-to-the-right cruiser aren't the most exciting things on screen. DJ's character is a skimp of mystery and just ultimately a crooked mercenary like the ones that are seen on that whole casino side quest?! How's the guy with the lapel, why was he said to be the only one to be used. I'm guessing he's the only one trustworthy amongst the populace of code crackers but then again that wasn't even hinted at. Maybe he was the only one known to be really good, who knows.

AND THEN, you have hyper-space, flying fucking ships that fire massive plasma bursts, electrified weapons, force shields, etc but we still have WWII flying bombers flying from one direction on one plane, WW1 like trenches and charge at the enemy at a frontal attacking point tactics. Red salt spewing flying junk vehicles shit because what, that was the only way they could fly?! I mean and then you have the little flying red salt spewing junk vehicles that all scatter, in a derpy oh shit we're just fling into a firing squad, I would have never seen that one coming, except one that is going in a straight fucking line and doesn't get shot (not once from a big ass AT-AT) ... we can't hit him he's too small, do you know about area of effect attacks lol... No, instead Fin gets sideswiped from Rose's (another forgettable character - who according to Wikipedia is "the first Asian-American woman to play a leading role in a Star Wars film" so that explains it) vehicle - which mathematically would have to have been going faster than Fin's vehicle because she T-boned him to stop him from kamikazee-ing the big LoTR like "Battering Ram" laser.

Then you have overly cute designed fucking Porgs (with giant eyes). And they're the symbol of the Light Side of the Force and not those crystal wolves!? Chewbacca doesn't eat one, they then infest the ship and are implanted in as comedy scenes to try and get Star Wars to be more like those hot selling comedic Marvel movies. Blugh

Then Luke just fades away at the end because he overexerted himself with the distraction? Did you do your force projection stretches? - Just go back to your stone hut and sleep it off Luke! Lol, oh it was that extra force projection of the thing you gave Leia (which she held in her hands btw) - that did it wasn't it.
Lol, wtf is going on?!

Then Holdo is given command - even though Poe was being groomed by Leia to succeed her - and plans to run away - meanwhile the New Order can't jump in front of them or have reinforcements jump in front of them? - & ultimately decides to kamikazee into Snoke's ship... Ok, soooo if you wanted to do that as an attack, why didn't they implement this to a missle or X-Wing - don't get me started with the bowling ball mines from the beginning of the movie? Second, why do you need to have someone as important to sit in the chair and hit a bunch of buttons on a screen to commit suicide. Also what's up with this chick being the only one to be walking around in a gown/dress thing with purple hair. There's that whole thing where she continues to point out Poe's demotion in front of the bridge personal and not discussing their current plans with him. With the mutiny scene, nobody died until Holdo instigated it, #Hanshotfirst, and I don't get the whole door being cut open like an empirical boarding party only to be shown oh no it's just Leia force willled it into pieces. That and wow did I just burst out laughing when fully intact but jettisoned into space Leia just pulled herself back - Superman style mind you - into the ship with the force.

They have a beacon active and they're wondering how they're bring tracked!? Seriously, set the beacon on a planet so only the planet is compromised and not the entire fleet. I'm pretty sure Finn was trying to do that but Rose never let him and assumed because he left the NO and was near an escape pod that he was running again.

Phasma... Phasma who?

God damn it, I think I'm going to go back and just watch Clone Wars and that's it. Star Wars is dead. It's alright if you liked it but I felt there were more holes than what they created. What a cluster fuck.
/rant
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah, I honestly don't understand the reviews it got because this is the second time I feel like Star Wars has been empty and a complete mess after Rogue One last year. The Force Awakens was great because it gave us the supporting characters we needed but not as a focus. Rey and Kylo are the only interesting new characters (other than the droids and fluffy creatures) that need to be focused on and the rest need to benchwarm at this point.

Think about Luke's friends from ANH, how Biggs and Wedge are his best friends and end up being wingmates during a pivotal battle. They're not explained or shown at all up to that point, only mentioned in dialogue from Luke because something triggered a memory for him. Poe and Finn are useless and the more they try cram these guys in as an afterthought, the more the movies are going to suffer for it. Rose is just more proof that useless characters breed more useless screen time that amounts to nothing. Good point about the "Marvel humor" btw, I knew something was off with it and now it all makes sense.

 
I agree with all of these plot holes other posters have pointed out.

As far as Holdo's attire ... Mon Mothma? But yes, I feel like there's forced diversity across this film. I didn't feel that way with the characters in Rogue One.

It seems that TLJ failed on several fronts because of elements that were forced, instead of focusing what makes star wars star wars. Forced diversity. Forced humor. Forced creature. Jam this story line in there. Let's make up a live sorry where there isn't one. Etcetera. Etcetera.

This may be another point that is filled in by the extended universe so feel free to point me in the right direction. But why does Rey's lineage matter? I didn't think Jedi were bred in the manner that the Bene Gesserit tried to control blood lines and produce the Kwisatz Haderach. It's a mean insult by Kylo Ren I get that, and of course everyone would like to know who Rey's parents/family are. But I thought being sufficiently force sensitive is just a breeding accident in the same manner as being born with blue eyes or having the genetic predisposition to be tall. Parents have children and some have trait X by luck of the draw. Anakin was some messianic immaculate conception. But in general being force sensitive wasn't necessarily dependent on either the socioeconomic status of your parents or their being Jedi.
e4677bfc24948c25f38ced4ec1d586a0.jpg
 
ubiquetous said:
This may be another point that is filled in by the extended universe so feel free to point me in the right direction. But why does Rey's lineage matter? I didn't think Jedi were bred in the manner that the Bene Gesserit tried to control blood lines and produce the Kwisatz Haderach. It's a mean insult by Kylo Ren I get that, and of course everyone would like to know who Rey's parents/family are. But I thought being sufficiently force sensitive is just a breeding accident in the same manner as being born with blue eyes or having the genetic predisposition to be tall. Parents have children and some have trait X by luck of the draw. Anakin was some messianic immaculate conception. But in general being force sensitive wasn't necessarily dependent on either the socioeconomic status of your parents or their being Jedi.
Click to expand...
Her lineage matters because it's a dangling plot point and the Internet loves to ponder. And people will be happy to be declared an online "prophet" if they are able to randomly pick what is eventually revealed to be the correct answer, if one is ever given.

Given past Jedi dogma as presented in the prequels, there was little opportunity for Force sensitivity to be passed, given the Jedi's supposed celibacy. Though that flies in the face of a line from ROTJ that I was disappointed with not getting more background on in ROTS - "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him." I hoped that would be touched upon, perhaps an expansion of the Chosen One prophecy, but nothing. I think it was the Dark Empire II graphic novel series in the 90s that had a holocron prophecy about a pair of twins saving the galaxy from darkness. I don't think it touched on Anakin / Vader, but it's been a long time since I read it and I don't feel like digging through wikis to find it. It's no longer canon anyway, just wanted to mention an apparent contradiction between what was in the OT vs. the PT.

Anakin's conception is seen by some as the Force's anticipatory reaction to the actions of Plagueis and Palpatine. Snoke mentioned in TLJ that he expected the Force to provide a Light Side counter to Kylo Ren, expecting it to be Luke. But perhaps the Force provided Rey as the counter, creating her before anyone saw the need for her.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top