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Voice actors want residuals for videogames?!!


#1 Professor Oreo   I paint pretty pictures CAGiversary!   1116 Posts   Joined 18.9 Years Ago  

Professor Oreo

Posted 25 May 2005 - 11:54 PM

Game voice actors picket E3, vote on strike

http://www.gamespot....ws_6126521.html

Howard Fabrick, the lawyer representing the game publishers, says the union actors are asking for more than they deserve. According to Fabrick, the sessions to record voice acting in games are mere blips in the thousands of man-hours put into the development of games.

"[The voice actors] have no leverage," Yankee Group analyst Mike Goodman told the Associated Press. "In 99 percent of all games, the voice actors are irrelevant. You replace one voice actor with another nonunion actor, and no one will know the difference."

Earlier in the month, SAG national president Melissa Gilbert noted, "[Game] producers rejected even a modest proposal of a residual structure that would cost them less than 1 percent of the revenue generated on only the highest-grossing games. There is only one way to describe their position: completely unreasonable and lacking in any appreciation of the contributions made by actors to the enormous profits enjoyed by this industry. If producers want their games to maintain a professional quality, they need to offer an agreement that shows greater respect to the professional performers who make these games come alive."



Although I cut up the Gamespot article a bit, the bottom line of the deal is that SAG and AFTRA (the Screen Actors Guild and the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists) are voting on whether or not to strike unless they can work out a deal with the game industry to provide residual payments for voice actors that on high volume selling games.

Having worked in the entertainment industry, I found this recent development to be quite comical. Flame me all you want, but it's my opinion that a large number of the Unions that govern the film and television industries have outgrown their initial purpose, (to protect the worker from unfair, unsafe, and unjust work practices) and are now out just for cash and see how much shit they can get away with. This is a prime example of just that. If the artists writers and programmers for video games aren't getting residuals (correct me if I'm wrong about that), why the hell should voice actors that generally contribute such a small piece to the overall product get a chunk of the back-end profits? Are they fucking insane? They just don't understand how minimal their contribution is in the overall game making process. So some random dude adding grunts groans and ten lines of victory dialog would get extra cash for every unit sold, while the animator that spent hundreds of hours refining the style and movements of that character (the part that people pay to experience) sees nothing? The unions just see an industry making big money like film and TV and figure that the same rules and conditions should carry over. That's just crazy talk.

My biggest problem with this is the precedent it might set. Are stunt men (a SAG union position) going to then ask for residuals for motion-capture work since their fellow union members are getting it also? This could spiral into a much bigger issue that makes game development an even more expensive/complicated process than it already is.

Now don't get me wrong I don't hate the concept of unions, but I think that the entertainment unions have just gone too far with many of their bullshit rules and I'd hate to see that type of nonsense spread into the gaming industry. If anyone should be making big money off of royalties and residuals it should be the artists and programmers who devote years of their lives to developing a single product, not some asshole who comes in for a few days to open his mouth. Voice acting is an important component to games, but it's generally only the icing on the cake that is final product.

Any thoughts?

#2 RBM   do I look like I'm joking CAGiversary!   979 Posts   Joined 19.3 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:23 AM

The very notion of voiceover actors for video/computer games commanding such payment makes me want to laugh (and laugh hard, at that.) The level of quality which the gaming industry has seen with regard to voiceovers has been embarassingly low, compared to that seen in holllywood films. Voice talents in games seem to have contributed so little to game sales, I can't think of any bargaining power such actors would have in demanding such compensation. A voice actor might as well sing a song in a game and then complain that he isn't awarded a similar portion of game revenue that a singer is paid for his album.

I have no market data to back up that claim, however. I'm just voicing an opinion; I *believe* that voice talents haven't contributed significantly to game sales. Why? Because it's never factored into my own purchases and I generously extend my own point of view onto the pubilc at large. :)

The guy who reads the car ad for a TV commercial might as well claim to have contributed significantly to sales for that model and demand a bigger slice of the pie.


[edit: yes, you've hit the nail right on the head! Well done, Trakan!]

#3 Trakan  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:29 AM

You're surprised people like and want money?

#4 Professor Oreo   I paint pretty pictures CAGiversary!   1116 Posts   Joined 18.9 Years Ago  

Professor Oreo

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:34 AM

I'm surprised that these people think that they DESERVE this money.

#5 evilmax17   Yardsaling CAG CAGiversary!   7480 Posts   Joined 20.0 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:34 AM

I'd be happier if we went back to the days of text boxes.

#6 CaseyRyback   Your New Nightmare! Super Moderators   24205 Posts   Joined 19.6 Years Ago  

CaseyRyback

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:38 AM

I'm surprised that these people think that they DESERVE this money.


why? I think this has a lot more to do with games that are pretty much based completely on a star (like Scarface and the Godfather, where the actors involved add a ton to the game)

should Snoop Dogg not get residuals for games where they use him as an advertising tool (like they did in True Crime)?

games that use licenses probably have to pay residuals of some kind, so why not to stars where the game is pretty much being sold on their star power?

#7 Roufuss   is now a coupon CAGiversary!   21591 Posts   Joined 20.0 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:38 AM

I'd be happier if we went back to the days of text boxes.


Same here... for every game that has good VA's, there are at least five games that have the worst VA's known to man.

#8 Professor Oreo   I paint pretty pictures CAGiversary!   1116 Posts   Joined 18.9 Years Ago  

Professor Oreo

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:56 AM

why? I think this has a lot more to do with games that are pretty much based completely on a star (like Scarface and the Godfather, where the actors involved add a ton to the game)

should Snoop Dogg not get residuals for games where they use him as an advertising tool (like they did in True Crime)?

games that use licenses probably have to pay residuals of some kind, so why not to stars where the game is pretty much being sold on their star power?


That's not the point. Big name actors and stars will always get to make their own deals and the devlopers will pay whatever the cost (residuals possibly included) for the privilege to use their name/voice/persona in their product. That will always be the case, so this issue isn't about Al Paccino or Snoop Dogg making money. This is about the guy who played "Moaning Zombie #3" in Resident Evil 18 and how that guy will be getting checks for years for a couple hours worth of work. You think that guy DESERVES to keep making money more so than say the artist that created the 3D model of Moaning Zombie #3?

#9 epobirs   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8546 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 12:59 AM

If you're someone who is in demand for your voice work, which job are you going to take? The one time hourly gig or the one with long term revenue potential?

The people we're talking about here aren't random community theater folks pulled into a studio for a few lines on some localization of a Japanese release. We're talking about recognizable names and voices with serious careers. If you want the same guy to voice Spike for a US release of a Cowboy Bebop game, then Steven Blum ( http://imdb.com/name/nm0089710/ ) wants the same compensation for the same work.

Some games can involve a hell of a lot of dialogue. Many of the actors fromt he original Star Trek cast were shocked at the sheer volume of material they had to record for a single game. The last two Final Fantasy entries are another example. John Dimaggio will see far more money from far less work in 'Clone Wars' or a single Futurama episode than his time spent on performing Wakka in FFX and FFX-2. http://imdb.com/name/nm0224007/

You want good voice actors, you gotta pay what they can get from the cartoon makers.

#10 Scorch   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   37487 Posts   Joined 19.8 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:01 AM

Wait, i'm confused.

The voice actors do work for the game and want to be paid from it.. and you guys think it's wrong for them to want a piece of the game's profit?

EDIT: Fuck, I missed my 10,000th post

#11 epobirs   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8546 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:04 AM

That's not the point. Big name actors and stars will always get to make their own deals and the devlopers will pay whatever the cost (residuals possibly included) for the privilege to use their name/voice/persona in their product. That will always be the case, so this issue isn't about Al Paccino or Snoop Dogg making money. This is about the guy who played "Moaning Zombie #3" in Resident Evil 18 and how that guy will be getting checks for years for a couple hours worth of work. You think that guy DESERVES to keep making money more so than say the artist that created the 3D model of Moaning Zombie #3?


Get serious. Those people would get residuals measured in pennies. I've known a few actors in that position. Everybody would recognize their face but nobody would recognize their name. Picking up a few bucks from sitcom reruns individually wouldn't buy lunch off the value menu but cumulatively it can make the difference between being able to afford seeing a dentist regularly or doing without.

#12 Ugamer_X   You can trust me CAGiversary!   7619 Posts   Joined 19.5 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:06 AM

Wait, i'm confused.

The voice actors do work for the game and want to be paid from it.. and you guys think it's wrong for them to want a piece of the game's profit?

EDIT: Fuck, I missed my 10,000th post

You still look at post counts?

#13 Scorch   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   37487 Posts   Joined 19.8 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:08 AM

You still look at post counts?


No, but i'd been waiting to see what i'd hit 10,000.

#14 CaseyRyback   Your New Nightmare! Super Moderators   24205 Posts   Joined 19.6 Years Ago  

CaseyRyback

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:08 AM

Get serious. Those people would get residuals measured in pennies. I've known a few actors in that position. Everybody would recognize their face but nobody would recognize their name. Picking up a few bucks from sitcom reruns individually wouldn't buy lunch off the value menu but cumulatively it can make the difference between being able to afford seeing a dentist regularly or doing without.


also the guy who makes the zombie sound probably makes a shit ton less than the guy making the character model. I read in the paper the other day, salaries for people working in position the other day were reaching and exceeding 100K a year. I doubt someone who makes a few bucks making a noise would even come close to that

#15 epobirs   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8546 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:13 AM

also the guy who makes the zombie sound probably makes a shit ton less than the guy making the character model. I read in the paper the other day, salaries for people working in position the other day were reaching and exceeding 100K a year. I doubt someone who makes a few bucks making a noise would even come close to that


Indeed. There is a reason production costs are rising. When you increase the detail artists are given to use the labor grows and the class of talent required grows as well.

By the same progression, the demand for higher quality in voice work has grown. Famous voices can be very appealing to the target audience. One part of the Oblivion demo vid that got a lot of attention was the Patrick Stewart narration. The cost of that voice has a payoff in attracting interest to the produt.

#16 epobirs   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8546 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:25 AM

And in case anyone is wondering if the use of an actor's voice that was previously recorded for a film or TV episode counts, yes, it does. It falls under derivative works, much as the use of the actor's likeness (face) use in things like toys and other merchandising is covered.

And things can get sticky about screen credits and placement. Residual levels can be tied to how an actor is listed in the credits. Appearing in the title credits rather than only on the end credits or as a guest star after the titles have run, all of those matter. For instance, on the sitcom 'Wings' Tony Shalhoub was a regular part of the cast for years before they added him to the title credits. It kept the budget smaller and he didn't have the position to argue. Amber Benson didn't make the title credits in 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' until the episide where her character was killed off. It was kind of like giving an extra large tip to a waittress you know will be laid off next week. They even went so far as to give her a title credit on the following episode although she only appeared as a corpse with her face out of view. Those two title credits will make her a lot more money from those Season 6 box set sales.

#17 Noodle Pirate!   My Cat > Your Cat CAGiversary!   2302 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Noodle Pirate!

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:30 AM

Nicely written OP.
You should clean it up a bit and send it off to SAG.
I don't think the people in it play many vid games or they would have realized the truth in your opnion and wouldn't have bothered to complain about it in the first place.
If anyone deserves residuals, its the programmers of the hit game.
I find the whole thing comical as well considering how god awful most of the voice acting is in the first place.

#18 epobirs   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8546 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:40 AM

Nicely written OP.
You should clean it up a bit and send it off to SAG.
I don't think the people in it play many vid games or they would have realized the truth in your opnion and wouldn't have bothered to complain about it in the first place.
If anyone deserves residuals, its the programmers of the hit game.
I find the whole thing comical as well considering how god awful most of the voice acting is in the first place.


Many highly valued programmers and designers do have royalty arrangements on sales of their games. Guess where the structure of their contracts was borrowed from and which industry their lawyers first specialized in serving?

#19 Alpha2   Custom user Title CAGiversary!   3429 Posts   Joined 19.5 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:48 AM

I'm actually not suprised, with the number of actual familiar voices and real stars being used for voices in games they're bound to foster the idea in others that their contributions are as great as they would be for a movie or television show especially since games are quickly approaching the same level of cinematic presence.

If I do a voice for a 90 minute animated movie and get residuals based on it's DVD sales than so should the guy who did Solid Snake's voice in MGS. It's not like he did any less work.

There are plenty of people who do really shitty work who probably shouldnt get a dime though, howver maybe this will give voice directors incentive to improve their actor's performances in games.

#20 Professor Oreo   I paint pretty pictures CAGiversary!   1116 Posts   Joined 18.9 Years Ago  

Professor Oreo

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:51 AM

Wait, i'm confused.
The voice actors do work for the game and want to be paid from it.. and you guys think it's wrong for them to want a piece of the game's profit?


The voice actors are already being paid. They agreed to a sum of money to perform the task and that was the end of it. Now they are asking for money in addition to what they were already paid because they feel that their work was crucial to the success of the game and in most cases I cry "bullshit."

Big name actors with star quality/appeal are not what this discussion is about because they can, and will, set their own price to have their name attached to the project. Doing a Simpsons game? You'll pay through the nose to get Dan Castellaneta to do Homer because he will help sell your product. People reprising a role for some cartoon/game tie-in are not who we are talking about here, because if the game-makers want their shit to be "authentic" they will pay the price to get the original actors.

Now who played the voice of Astaroth in English dub of Soul Calibur 2?... Nobody knows, and moreover, nobody cares. He is name/talent is not selling this game, but that guy would now getting residuals on top of his salary. He may not make as much money as the guy who animated Astaroth, but SAG/AFTRA want you to believe that he was every bit as important to the quality/profits of that game. Do you believe that's true? Animator gets no residuals, guy who grunts does.

Now by the same token, I've worked in-house as a game tester for a major publisher and I've found several game-freezing bugs. My several months of work on a single title has definetly contributed to the overall quality of the finished game... do I deserve residuals? Cause the guy who actually fixed the bugs I reported doesn't get shit.

#21 Alpha2   Custom user Title CAGiversary!   3429 Posts   Joined 19.5 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 01:58 AM

I have no doubt that if this did some how move ahead the residual would probably be defined by the level of perfomance. The Asteroth voice would likely get pennies compared to someone who narrates 2hours of voice.

#22 humidore   Pasha CAGiversary!   1880 Posts   Joined 18.7 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 02:43 AM

It really hurts to think the guy who did "Jacky" (or ANY of the English speaking characters in Virtua Fighter) could get EVEN MORE money than whatever his salary was for the job...You can pay em a lil more when they admit how god-awful most of their performances are (an hopefully clean up their act). I mostly avoid the "voice on" mode (or switch it to other languages) unless it's MGS, Splinter Cell or some other (of the very few) games I know I could at least believe these voices represent who they're supposed to.

I don't even enjoy the "campiness" of the bad voice acting anymore...And as a side note, of the few "Judgement Day" (review show on G4) shows I've seen, I know I've heard that Tommy guy complain about lack of voice acting in a game MANY times. I am very used to playing RPG's by reading, but it seems now companies feel they have to hire people to ruin my enjoyment. No, I did not like FFX voices, so I may be the minority...

#23 Quackzilla   who am i? CAGiversary!   6050 Posts   Joined 19.5 Years Ago  

Quackzilla

Posted 26 May 2005 - 02:47 AM

I'd be happier if we went back to the days of text boxes.


That's why Zelda rules.

#24 thefloorislava   Member since 2003 CAGiversary!   1439 Posts   Joined 19.7 Years Ago  

thefloorislava

Posted 26 May 2005 - 02:49 AM

I'd like to do voice work for games. And I would be happy getting paid one time and having my name in the credits. Asking for a share of the profits is ridiculous.

#25 Alpha2   Custom user Title CAGiversary!   3429 Posts   Joined 19.5 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 04:19 AM

Say what you will about the gameplay (I honestly dont give a Fuck) Xenosaga is a much more enjoyable game compared to Xenogears mainly for the fact that it's 20 hours of voice acting is much less strenuous than 40 hours of reading text boxes.

#26 Scrubking   Feels the Force CAGiversary!   4804 Posts   Joined 19.8 Years Ago  

Scrubking

Posted 26 May 2005 - 04:21 AM

I am glad this is happening. The gaming industry wanted to go Hollywood and now it has come back to bite them in the ass. I hope it turns out to be a total disaster which leads to voice actors going back to being no name nobodies.

I'm sick of high paid voice actors and the rising costs of production associated with their exorbitant prices. Games should STOP trying to be Hollywood movies and go back to being games!

#27 epobirs   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8546 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 05:10 PM

The voice actors are already being paid. They agreed to a sum of money to perform the task and that was the end of it. Now they are asking for money in addition to what they were already paid because they feel that their work was crucial to the success of the game and in most cases I cry "bullshit."

Big name actors with star quality/appeal are not what this discussion is about because they can, and will, set their own price to have their name attached to the project. Doing a Simpsons game? You'll pay through the nose to get Dan Castellaneta to do Homer because he will help sell your product. People reprising a role for some cartoon/game tie-in are not who we are talking about here, because if the game-makers want their shit to be "authentic" they will pay the price to get the original actors.

Now who played the voice of Astaroth in English dub of Soul Calibur 2?... Nobody knows, and moreover, nobody cares. He is name/talent is not selling this game, but that guy would now getting residuals on top of his salary. He may not make as much money as the guy who animated Astaroth, but SAG/AFTRA want you to believe that he was every bit as important to the quality/profits of that game. Do you believe that's true? Animator gets no residuals, guy who grunts does.

Now by the same token, I've worked in-house as a game tester for a major publisher and I've found several game-freezing bugs. My several months of work on a single title has definetly contributed to the overall quality of the finished game... do I deserve residuals? Cause the guy who actually fixed the bugs I reported doesn't get shit.


Voice cast of Soul Calibur 2
http://imdb.com/title/tt0368980/

That would be one J.S. Gilbert, who appears to have done quite a lot of game work. Likely not a SAG member if his credits are solely for games.
http://imdb.com/name/nm0974417/

Sounds like you've got a lot of jealousy going. I did game testing for most of three years. Game testers are much more easily replaced than quality voice actors.

And no, this is not about the likes of a Simpsons main cast member who is making more per epsiode than any of us make annually. This is about the people who depend on SAG for things like their health coverage and legal protection in situations where they could never afford a good attorney of their own. I have a lot of issues with what unions have become but there are reasons for their existence.

Do you know how small a percentage of SAG members make their living entirely from acting, even with residuals? If you're doing a lot of one-off work you can get recognized in public a lot but still be struggling to stay above the poverty line. If you aren't attached to a regular gig like a TV series or command film fees high enough to get you through the year, it can be a feast or famine life. Being available for roles that can come up on short notice can make it very difficult to hold a regular job. So many of these people pay a price for pursuing this field.

If you don't like the lot of the game tester, start a union. Just don't be surprised if you find yourselves all fired and replaced so quickly it causes no schedule delays. Having a voice that is in demand puts you in a far better position to make demands. People complain the game voices are awful but all too often it is because they chose not to hire professionals. That often applies to the dialogue writer as well. Horrible dialogue can make anyone sound like a fool.

The union issue applies as well tot he programmer. He is certainly less easily replaced than a tester but all too often they agree to wretched contracts and have only themselves to blame. Some companies love young programmers without families the best because they make up for their inexperience in professional with their inexperience in reading contracts.

#28 Xevious   Most Damned CAG Evar CAGiversary!   8943 Posts   Joined 19.0 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 05:41 PM

Actors are not the real artists behind games. The programmers, 3D artists, Sound designers, etc....those guys are the real artists behind games.

I dont think this move by the Actors Guild will have much leverage.

Also you have the factor that games have a shorter lifespan than movies; There is no residuals to speak of (usually)

#29 epobirs   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   8546 Posts   Joined 19.1 Years Ago  

Posted 26 May 2005 - 06:49 PM

Actors are not the real artists behind games. The programmers, 3D artists, Sound designers, etc....those guys are the real artists behind games.

I dont think this move by the Actors Guild will have much leverage.

Also you have the factor that games have a shorter lifespan than movies; There is no residuals to speak of (usually)


Recent FF titles feature a lot of SAG talent. Do you really think those are going to disappear from retail availability any time soon? They'll likely see revivals in the future that make upgrade the graphics but will retain the voice work since there would be little point in changing anything there.

TV commercials have far shorter lives than hit games but are a lucrative field when it comes to residuals.

Nobody is claiming the voice actors are the sole driving talent of the games anymore than that claim would be made for their animation work. But the contribution remains and with a strong union backing them game companies can find themselves at a loss if they want good voices in their games.

#30 greydemise   Forever Furby CAGiversary!   2866 Posts   Joined 19.0 Years Ago  

greydemise

Posted 26 May 2005 - 06:56 PM

Same here... for every game that has good VA's, there are at least five games that have the worst VA's known to man.



here here, besides, its kinda weird when ur grandma is in the last room and she mistakes a female character screaming for porn...so text boxes all the way