I was just curious as to what sort of insight some of you might have into what has caused the the decline of the arcade. I'm not talking within the last couple years, I'm talking about it's decline from it's heyday in the 80's. I know that one of the obvious answers is that home consoles caught up technologically...but I personally think it's something deeper than that. One of my theories is the introduction in the late 80's of "the quarter muncher". Games of this type (Gauntlet for example) would require you to shovel coin after coin to advance significantly in the game. Now, I may be dating myself here, but I can recall a time when games could be played for extended periods of time on a single quarter because of SKILL - no time limits, no constantly declining health, etc. Crowds would circle to watch a good Dragon's Lair or Defender player - it was a testament to their gaming ability, not how deep their pockets were. I think when this element went by the wayside, it was the beginning of the end for most arcades in the US. Please don't misunderstand, as I have deep love for lots of the new gen games - but when it became mandatory to pay to play, arcades started to lose their shine. Perhaps that's why the small rebound in the 90's with fighting games - ability came back into the equation. Anyone else have any thoughts?
The decline in popularity of "the arcade" theories?
- Thread starter daikaiju
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Nirvanaguy777
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Arcades decline? I havent seen any arcade decline around my area, hell I see kids crowding around the chinese kid who beats marvel vs capcom weekly at the laundry place on a single quater (I beat him once).
magilacudy
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It's just a combination of factors. Younger generations have shorter attention spans, so they wouldn't want to stand around watching someone play on a single quarter. Game companies wanted to please these kids and also make more money so they developed less single-player games and more multi-player ones. Home consoles were also a big part of that.
However, nowadays I'd say that fighting games and DDR are a big draw for people to watch. It is a renaissance for arcades.
However, nowadays I'd say that fighting games and DDR are a big draw for people to watch. It is a renaissance for arcades.
Declining arcades could now be due to the fact that arcade games are more expensive to play. Think of how many new arcade games cost like $1.00 or more to play once. Old school quarter crunchers are cheap by comparison.
Gameworks in Las Vegas is the worst. $2 games, more for cheesy simulator versions. Plus you have to put money on a plastic "credit card" they give you so you don't notice how quickly you go through the damn money. At $1 and $2 an arcade game, it would cost me less to get drunk at the bar in Gameworks then play the actually games there for an hour or so. They do have a few days where you can buy "unlimited gaming" on all the machines for like $20 for an hour or two, but on those days all the games that you really want to play have a bunch of people hogging them up.
But hell, at $1 to $2 a game, if you're in Vegas and are gonna throw away money that quick, you might as well play a slot machine or blackjack. There is a slight possiblity that you could win your money back.
Gameworks in Las Vegas is the worst. $2 games, more for cheesy simulator versions. Plus you have to put money on a plastic "credit card" they give you so you don't notice how quickly you go through the damn money. At $1 and $2 an arcade game, it would cost me less to get drunk at the bar in Gameworks then play the actually games there for an hour or so. They do have a few days where you can buy "unlimited gaming" on all the machines for like $20 for an hour or two, but on those days all the games that you really want to play have a bunch of people hogging them up.
But hell, at $1 to $2 a game, if you're in Vegas and are gonna throw away money that quick, you might as well play a slot machine or blackjack. There is a slight possiblity that you could win your money back.
Gameboy415
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Man, I miss the days of quarter arcades..... $1.25 for a racing game these days is a crime
karmapolice
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I think its because it was a phase...just like everything else...videogames were still relativly new...and it was something that brought people together...now it doesnt do that...its lost its magic...I would take a good game of Pac-man or Galaga over a nextgen game...Maybe thats just me...
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Its because the innovation that took place in the Japanese market never took place here in the US
I say lack of reward. if I pay $25 bucks to beat a arcade game I want it to be great with fireworks or something that tell me good job and everyone is happy. but most games just give you credits Oh I spent $25 bucks plus 3 weeks and 6 corns and 4 blisters on my feet just for credits. plus most games cost 75 cents or a buck to play at the only arcade in my city. and most of the games are old
Arcades a more expensive to visit and to maintain now adays and the The crowds diminished because of the rising prices. Sure there are still places that see a brisk buisness but it's only in some places.
In manhattan the two largest Arcades (used to be three) Picked up stakes and vanised for various reasons, one was becoming a gang hang out and to expensive to safely keep open, another was seeing low returns profit wise and another was a bar with an Arcade, trying to hold two different markets, one in the day and one at night and over extended themselves.
In all cases they just werent making enough money.
In manhattan the two largest Arcades (used to be three) Picked up stakes and vanised for various reasons, one was becoming a gang hang out and to expensive to safely keep open, another was seeing low returns profit wise and another was a bar with an Arcade, trying to hold two different markets, one in the day and one at night and over extended themselves.
In all cases they just werent making enough money.
RBM
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Consider some of the things that have been mentioned in another light: if you stumbled upon an out of the way arcade with some classic titles in decent shape....would you plug in a quarter today? Many of you have cited cost (and less have mentioned the impact of home gaming consoles...which surprises me, since I'd consider their impact much more significant...and probably a driving factor in the raised price of arcade games,) but even a quarter, now? To play Shinobi? Golden Axe? Rolling Thunder? Black Tiger? Magic Sword?
I'm guessing that many of you would say yes, simply out of nostalgia. But one could take that to mean that if nostalgia were removed as an incentive (say, a game you didn't recognize but somewhat akin to the now "classic" arcade titles in design,) you might just hold on to your spare change. Because such games have limited rewards they can offer. They know you're not going to stand in front of an arcade game for an hour (and if you did/could, it wouldn't be very profitable for them, anyway.) And most people just wouldn't be that interested in a few minutes of playing, if they know that that's all it will be. Well, that's my guess, anyways. I think the tastes of modern gamers has been weaned away from the simplistic fare of old arcade games. And that this trend is what most prominently caused the die-off of those dark, noisey arcades which I kind of miss.
I'm guessing that many of you would say yes, simply out of nostalgia. But one could take that to mean that if nostalgia were removed as an incentive (say, a game you didn't recognize but somewhat akin to the now "classic" arcade titles in design,) you might just hold on to your spare change. Because such games have limited rewards they can offer. They know you're not going to stand in front of an arcade game for an hour (and if you did/could, it wouldn't be very profitable for them, anyway.) And most people just wouldn't be that interested in a few minutes of playing, if they know that that's all it will be. Well, that's my guess, anyways. I think the tastes of modern gamers has been weaned away from the simplistic fare of old arcade games. And that this trend is what most prominently caused the die-off of those dark, noisey arcades which I kind of miss.
sj41
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The only real arcade in my area is Nickelrama. I go to that place almost every other week. It has $2.25 for admission and the highest games cost are 6 nickels ($0.30) and some are 1 nickel. They have some huge games too and you play to win tickets for prizes on many games. They have about 120 people on a good night. It's alot of fun and doesn't cost that much money. Howerver now, they have put in computers to play games such as Halo and other multi player games.About 8 computers are lined up for this and it costs $1 for 20 minutes of play.
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[quote name='sj41']The only real arcade in my area is Nickelrama. I go to that place almost every other week. It has $2.25 for admission and the highest games cost are 6 nickels ($0.30) and some are 1 nickel. They have some huge games too and you play to win tickets for prizes on many games. They have about 120 people on a good night. It's alot of fun and doesn't cost that much money. Howerver now, they have put in computers to play games such as Halo and other multi player games.About 8 computers are lined up for this and it costs $1 for 20 minutes of play.[/quote]
Unless Tilt folded, you got a
ing large arcade in the west end, and Six Flags used to have a ton of arcade games
not to mention a Dave and Busters in the area.
Unless Tilt folded, you got a
ing large arcade in the west end, and Six Flags used to have a ton of arcade gamesnot to mention a Dave and Busters in the area.
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[quote name='spoo']Why go to an arcade when you can blow your money on Cheap Ass Games!
The last must play game at the Arcades was SF. Then it came out on SNES.[/quote]
to me there is always a must play arcade game. Lately it is MOCAP boxing.
The last must play game at the Arcades was SF. Then it came out on SNES.[/quote]
to me there is always a must play arcade game. Lately it is MOCAP boxing.
sj41
CAGiversary!
[quote name='CaseyRyback'][quote name='sj41']The only real arcade in my area is Nickelrama. I go to that place almost every other week. It has $2.25 for admission and the highest games cost are 6 nickels ($0.30) and some are 1 nickel. They have some huge games too and you play to win tickets for prizes on many games. They have about 120 people on a good night. It's alot of fun and doesn't cost that much money. Howerver now, they have put in computers to play games such as Halo and other multi player games.About 8 computers are lined up for this and it costs $1 for 20 minutes of play.[/quote]
Unless Tilt folded, you got a shaq-fuing large arcade in the west end, and Six Flags used to have a ton of arcade games
not to mention a Dave and Busters in the area.[/quote]Those places have arcades and the mall has an arcade but this is the only arcade that doesn't have anything else with it. I'm pretty sure it gets that big. Now less might be allowed in because the fire department caught them with too many people and it is dangerous for too many people to be in the building at the same time.
Unless Tilt folded, you got a shaq-fuing large arcade in the west end, and Six Flags used to have a ton of arcade games
not to mention a Dave and Busters in the area.[/quote]Those places have arcades and the mall has an arcade but this is the only arcade that doesn't have anything else with it. I'm pretty sure it gets that big. Now less might be allowed in because the fire department caught them with too many people and it is dangerous for too many people to be in the building at the same time.
Back when the Starwars Pod racing game came out me and my friend would drive out to the arcade and literally blow 10 to 20 bucks on it and various other games atleast once a month, stuff like the sega firefighting game or time crisis because they were things we couldnt get at home. The prices wer rediculous (2 to 2 and a half bucks for one game, sometimes 3) but if the game packed the punch it was worth the smoking wallets. But when those games dissapeared or showed up on home systems we stopped going because we weren't going to spend the same amount of month trying to beat Metal Slug that we'd spen on owning a home version.
As it stands today a lot of people can play those old favorites on the home consoles or free by ...other means... (what? you know what I'm talking about) so a quarter would be more than they're willing to pay even if you COULD find them for a quarter. I might toss a quarter in for the hell of it but it's not likely I'd see it.
As it stands today a lot of people can play those old favorites on the home consoles or free by ...other means... (what? you know what I'm talking about) so a quarter would be more than they're willing to pay even if you COULD find them for a quarter. I might toss a quarter in for the hell of it but it's not likely I'd see it.
The arcade or LBE (location based entertainment) setting places some severe limits on what can be done in a game. An LBE product can involve a collection of specilized hardware that most home gamers would consider an impractical expense ala the full sit-down Daytona with LAN, but such a game must learned very quickly and only encourage lengthy playtime if fed with additional funds since such a machine represents a major capital as well as operational expense. While most console action hits of recent years have their gameplay roots in the arcade none of them would be viable as coin operated experiences. The time spent on plot development and the length of the actual games, even those criticized as short, are vastly longer than considered tolerable for an arcade machine.
Some attempts have been made to introduce save games to the arcades, using console memory cards, local storage with a user name and password, or some proprietary media. For the most part this has been an utter non-starter. Games that cannot be played to their conclusion in a single session remain the rule in arcades. This is a major reason for the rise of Internet gaming centers where players rent time on well equipped PCs with good broadband connections that may be available to them at home.
Another factor is age. North America has fewer children as a percentage of the population than ever before. Tail-end baby boomers like me who spent a lot of time in arcades during the transition from mostly pinball and mechanical games to digital electronics are now less inclined to pump cash into a machine we know will be quite expensive to master with our aging reflexes and the general cacophony of dozens of competing games as well as the competing conversations try to shout over them are just too unpleasant to bear. There's this one arcade in Pasadena near Cal Tech, just about the only serious arcade left near me in terms of having a good choice of recent games and an extensive range of classics. I go in there maybe three or four times a year to see whats new and spend some cash on games that have never had a satisfying home version but I put in ear plugs first and still come away feeling like I've been in between two artillery columns having a frank exchange of views.
Now that the prices run so high and the technology isn't anywhere near as far ahead of the console offerings as was typical up through the mid-90's it just doesn't make much sense value-wise. As a long-time CAG (in spirit and deed if not registration) I'm long accustomed to owning console games for $10 to $20. Which means the amount of cash I shoved into old 8-bit arcade machines that are readily reproduced on a GBA is retroactively horrifying. I probably spent enough in Galaxian/Galaga/88 to buy a new console at current prices. Factor in inflation and you really have one of those Comic Book Guy moments: "Oh, I've wasted my life."
Consider this when comparing the value of a well done direct port of an arcade game to a console and the cost of playing that arcade machine. I can probably name at least 20 early 80's arcade games I played 200 times to spend the equivalent of a full price console game purchase. The unwritten industry rule was 1 minute per quarter. This means a first time player should expend all his lives in the game within one measley minute. This formula was based on the purchase and operation cost of a new arcade machine ($1200 to $2000 then) to reach profits within a month of business days starting from the first day it appears in your arcade. since there is the continuous cost of powering the machine, especially that big monitor, every hour a new game isn't constaly engaging new players is drawing out the wait until profits can be counted by days and days.
Arcade game developers have arcade operators as their primary cutomer. Nobody will ever see the machine if they can't convince the operator it has the potential for profits in a short time frame. Console and PC game developers don't have arcade operators intent on passing that break-even point to woryy about. They can make the user experience for that one-time payment as long as they like. This has made the arcades, even with exotic control hardware and feedback systems a much more difficult sales task. Daytona was a great arcade experience but at $20,000 for the ful-size unit it needs an operator with deep pockets and affluent customers to be a viable investment.
Some attempts have been made to introduce save games to the arcades, using console memory cards, local storage with a user name and password, or some proprietary media. For the most part this has been an utter non-starter. Games that cannot be played to their conclusion in a single session remain the rule in arcades. This is a major reason for the rise of Internet gaming centers where players rent time on well equipped PCs with good broadband connections that may be available to them at home.
Another factor is age. North America has fewer children as a percentage of the population than ever before. Tail-end baby boomers like me who spent a lot of time in arcades during the transition from mostly pinball and mechanical games to digital electronics are now less inclined to pump cash into a machine we know will be quite expensive to master with our aging reflexes and the general cacophony of dozens of competing games as well as the competing conversations try to shout over them are just too unpleasant to bear. There's this one arcade in Pasadena near Cal Tech, just about the only serious arcade left near me in terms of having a good choice of recent games and an extensive range of classics. I go in there maybe three or four times a year to see whats new and spend some cash on games that have never had a satisfying home version but I put in ear plugs first and still come away feeling like I've been in between two artillery columns having a frank exchange of views.
Now that the prices run so high and the technology isn't anywhere near as far ahead of the console offerings as was typical up through the mid-90's it just doesn't make much sense value-wise. As a long-time CAG (in spirit and deed if not registration) I'm long accustomed to owning console games for $10 to $20. Which means the amount of cash I shoved into old 8-bit arcade machines that are readily reproduced on a GBA is retroactively horrifying. I probably spent enough in Galaxian/Galaga/88 to buy a new console at current prices. Factor in inflation and you really have one of those Comic Book Guy moments: "Oh, I've wasted my life."
Consider this when comparing the value of a well done direct port of an arcade game to a console and the cost of playing that arcade machine. I can probably name at least 20 early 80's arcade games I played 200 times to spend the equivalent of a full price console game purchase. The unwritten industry rule was 1 minute per quarter. This means a first time player should expend all his lives in the game within one measley minute. This formula was based on the purchase and operation cost of a new arcade machine ($1200 to $2000 then) to reach profits within a month of business days starting from the first day it appears in your arcade. since there is the continuous cost of powering the machine, especially that big monitor, every hour a new game isn't constaly engaging new players is drawing out the wait until profits can be counted by days and days.
Arcade game developers have arcade operators as their primary cutomer. Nobody will ever see the machine if they can't convince the operator it has the potential for profits in a short time frame. Console and PC game developers don't have arcade operators intent on passing that break-even point to woryy about. They can make the user experience for that one-time payment as long as they like. This has made the arcades, even with exotic control hardware and feedback systems a much more difficult sales task. Daytona was a great arcade experience but at $20,000 for the ful-size unit it needs an operator with deep pockets and affluent customers to be a viable investment.
Seems to me The concept of "Arcade" needs to chang a bit.
I recently saw a news report about a "lounge" for lack of a better word similar to a net cafe (which mentioned in the previous post seems to be doing well in comparison), where gamers could spend 25 bucks and get 2 hours of play time with all 3 console systems and any game instock.
I recently saw a news report about a "lounge" for lack of a better word similar to a net cafe (which mentioned in the previous post seems to be doing well in comparison), where gamers could spend 25 bucks and get 2 hours of play time with all 3 console systems and any game instock.
[quote name='Alpha2']Seems to me The concept of "Arcade" needs to chang a bit.
I recently saw a news report about a "lounge" for lack of a better word similar to a net cafe (which mentioned in the previous post seems to be doing well in comparison), where gamers could spend 25 bucks and get 2 hours of play time with all 3 console systems and any game instock.[/quote]
Not really a new concept. The little independent stores that do rentals have often sold time on in-store demo stations. I can think of three such stores that used to do this in LA County although only one, GameDude, still exists and doesn't bother with such activities anymore.
I recently saw a news report about a "lounge" for lack of a better word similar to a net cafe (which mentioned in the previous post seems to be doing well in comparison), where gamers could spend 25 bucks and get 2 hours of play time with all 3 console systems and any game instock.[/quote]
Not really a new concept. The little independent stores that do rentals have often sold time on in-store demo stations. I can think of three such stores that used to do this in LA County although only one, GameDude, still exists and doesn't bother with such activities anymore.
I think it's the high cost of games. I went to Philly Gameworks about a year and a half ago. To play a 3 round song of DDR cost $3.75! It was ridiculous.
Even at other arcades, $1+ for a game can get expensive fast.
I also think that a lot of peole just don't like the arcade environment anymore. There was one arcade in my local mall that was open for 16 years. I went there at least 3 or 4 times a month but in 2002, their lease ran out. The mall was being remodeled and they felt an arcade "didn't fit in." The store is now a Gertude Hawk candy store and every time I walk by it, I really get upset because it felt like one of my favorite sources of entertainment got taken away from me.
I have 6 malls within a half hour of my house. At one time, all had an arcade. Today, only 1 still has an arcade.
Since 2002, 4 local arcades have shut down and it just seems to be getting worse. The general public just doesn't want to go to arcades anymore.
I definetly see games like DDR bringing interest back in the game. I was at an arcade at the shore on Monday night and the arcade had 3 DDR machines and there must have been 30 people watching and waiting to play.
And lastly, I think that arcade popularity is declining because the games people want just aren't easy to get.
Take Beatmania IIDX for example. From what I understand, there are less than 25 machines in the entire US. One arcade in NJ got the game and the waits to play on the weekend were up to 2 hours! I think if more arcades were to get the game and other in demand games like Pop N Music (only 5 machines in all of North America), people would start to return to arcades.
I know if I had a local arcade with DDR I would be there at least 2 - 3 times a week.
Even at other arcades, $1+ for a game can get expensive fast.
I also think that a lot of peole just don't like the arcade environment anymore. There was one arcade in my local mall that was open for 16 years. I went there at least 3 or 4 times a month but in 2002, their lease ran out. The mall was being remodeled and they felt an arcade "didn't fit in." The store is now a Gertude Hawk candy store and every time I walk by it, I really get upset because it felt like one of my favorite sources of entertainment got taken away from me.
I have 6 malls within a half hour of my house. At one time, all had an arcade. Today, only 1 still has an arcade.
Since 2002, 4 local arcades have shut down and it just seems to be getting worse. The general public just doesn't want to go to arcades anymore.
I definetly see games like DDR bringing interest back in the game. I was at an arcade at the shore on Monday night and the arcade had 3 DDR machines and there must have been 30 people watching and waiting to play.
And lastly, I think that arcade popularity is declining because the games people want just aren't easy to get.
Take Beatmania IIDX for example. From what I understand, there are less than 25 machines in the entire US. One arcade in NJ got the game and the waits to play on the weekend were up to 2 hours! I think if more arcades were to get the game and other in demand games like Pop N Music (only 5 machines in all of North America), people would start to return to arcades.
I know if I had a local arcade with DDR I would be there at least 2 - 3 times a week.
ElwoodCuse
CAGiversary!
Arcades are dying because the home consoles provide an equal or better experience in terms of technology. The only thing keeping arcades alive now are games that do not translate well to home consoles (or at least not without expensive equipment), like DDR or the other Konami music games, light gun games, or sit-down racers.
Strider Turbulence
Banned
I blame Sega, Namco, and all those other companies for releaseing those expensive (ing $1+), gimmick games that you will only be playing for around 30 seconds because it's time to pay for another round.
ing $1+), gimmick games that you will only be playing for around 30 seconds because it's time to pay for another round.[quote name='ElwoodCuse']The only thing keeping arcades alive now are games that do not translate well to home consoles (or at least not without expensive equipment), like DDR or the other Konami music games, light gun games, or sit-down racers.[/quote]
Yeah, that's definetly the case with Konami's music games ($2,000 arcade style home DDR pad, $450 arcade style home Pop N Music controller, $500 arcade style home Beatmania IIDX controller etc.)
Yeah, that's definetly the case with Konami's music games ($2,000 arcade style home DDR pad, $450 arcade style home Pop N Music controller, $500 arcade style home Beatmania IIDX controller etc.)
Believe it or not, one of the local arcades here can't make money on DDR. They have had it 3 different times, and each time it wasn't even close to being their #1 money maker. They also had Para-Para for awhile, and that made absolutely no money. Yes, the machines were in the front of the arcade, so everyone that walked in saw them. If you're curious, the top machines in this location as of a couple months ago were Initial D and Coul Calibur 2.
Also, on a side note, K-mart had DDR Extreme for awhile. I used to go and play, but when I stopped by K-mart a couple weeks ago, it was gone. However, they still had all the other crap. :/
I believe that innovation is the key to arcades making money (like Bemani stuff), but I also think most Americans feel like they will look goofy if they play something like DDR or Para-Para, so they don't play because of fear of humiliation.
Lastly, here's something interesting. When Mortal Kombat 2 came out, I glanced in a magazine, and MK2 was something like $2,500 new. Initial D, with 2 seats, was more than $16,000. That is an 540% increase! In that respect, I guess we should be glad that games don't cost $3.20 a play (that was in comparison to MK2 costing $.50 a play).
Also, on a side note, K-mart had DDR Extreme for awhile. I used to go and play, but when I stopped by K-mart a couple weeks ago, it was gone. However, they still had all the other crap. :/
I believe that innovation is the key to arcades making money (like Bemani stuff), but I also think most Americans feel like they will look goofy if they play something like DDR or Para-Para, so they don't play because of fear of humiliation.
Lastly, here's something interesting. When Mortal Kombat 2 came out, I glanced in a magazine, and MK2 was something like $2,500 new. Initial D, with 2 seats, was more than $16,000. That is an 540% increase! In that respect, I guess we should be glad that games don't cost $3.20 a play (that was in comparison to MK2 costing $.50 a play).
Para Para Paradise probably didn't do well for a few reasons. Like you said a lot of people are afraid to try the game in public and the pink color scheme doesn't help.
Also, from what I understand the game is supposed to be played while using the correct Para Para routines which most people don't do so the game gets boring.
An arcade near me had Para Para Dancing for a few months and I was the only one that ever played it (I never tried to learn the routines). They got rid of it 2 years ago and replaced it with Pump It Up Perfect Collection which almost always has someone playing it.
Para Para Paradise is also probably the least popular Bemani game. I have it for PS2 with the special controller and I played it maybe 5 or 6 times and never play it just because it's fun for a week or 2 and then it gets boring and I go right back to play DDR, Pop N Music, Guitar Freaks and Beatmania.
As for that DDR machine, was the price high?, difficulty set high? pads kept in well shape? and was it an old mix? (I am sick of Extreme but it seems like thats all people want to play anymore)
With DDR, it seems like people are very loyal to arcades that keep their machines in good condition and have reasonable prices. If there are multiple machines in one area, it seems like the most "player friendly" one does the best.
Also, from what I understand the game is supposed to be played while using the correct Para Para routines which most people don't do so the game gets boring.
An arcade near me had Para Para Dancing for a few months and I was the only one that ever played it (I never tried to learn the routines). They got rid of it 2 years ago and replaced it with Pump It Up Perfect Collection which almost always has someone playing it.
Para Para Paradise is also probably the least popular Bemani game. I have it for PS2 with the special controller and I played it maybe 5 or 6 times and never play it just because it's fun for a week or 2 and then it gets boring and I go right back to play DDR, Pop N Music, Guitar Freaks and Beatmania.
As for that DDR machine, was the price high?, difficulty set high? pads kept in well shape? and was it an old mix? (I am sick of Extreme but it seems like thats all people want to play anymore)
With DDR, it seems like people are very loyal to arcades that keep their machines in good condition and have reasonable prices. If there are multiple machines in one area, it seems like the most "player friendly" one does the best.
ElwoodCuse
CAGiversary!
[quote name='drae']Lastly, here's something interesting. When Mortal Kombat 2 came out, I glanced in a magazine, and MK2 was something like $2,500 new. Initial D, with 2 seats, was more than $16,000. That is an 540% increase! In that respect, I guess we should be glad that games don't cost $3.20 a play (that was in comparison to MK2 costing $.50 a play).[/quote]
MK2 is a one-screen stand-up cabinet. Initial D is a 2-person sit-down cabinet that has that card reader thing. They are kinda apples and oranges.
What did 2-player Daytona USA cabinets cost back in the day?
MK2 is a one-screen stand-up cabinet. Initial D is a 2-person sit-down cabinet that has that card reader thing. They are kinda apples and oranges.
What did 2-player Daytona USA cabinets cost back in the day?
PittsburghAfterDark
CAGiversary!
The only places in my city with gaming that's worth while is Dave & Buster's and Kennywood (Amusement park.). D&B's hasn't changed their games substantially in 3 years. Why should I go? They have Sega's Jockey Club which is their #1 money maker, it's also kind of a "meh" game that anyone can play even if drunk.
The other stuff is mostly Sega and Namco machines that are vintage Model 2 and Model 3 arcade boards or the Namco and Midway equivilent. Sorry, but I have all of those games on a home system. I have Ferrari 355, Daytona USA, VF Evo, Time Crisis, Gauntlet Legends, Hydro Thunder etc.. Their classics games are on system selectors where you pick from a menu like the Midway Arcade Classics, I have that at home too.
That leaves a dancing game (Not DDR.), MOCAP Boxing and a properly scoped Silent Scope as about the only games that either aren't location based for the sake of being location based or something I own. D&B's doesn't invest heavily in the Japanese games that would get me back like Pop N Music. They don't have an F-Zero AX machine either. Hell, I'd go and drop $20-30 on those two games alone.
As far as a gaming center for LAN, rental or broadband play? I have a 4 MB down, 512K up cable connection. I'd need a T1 to go faster or SDSL. Not only that but I have 220 games. If I want it, I have it.
So there, I'm the perfect would be arcade customer. Love games, would spend the money, willing to spend/try on new games. Yet no one caters to me. I'm also a freak of nature in the gaming public and know it. Why? Because there are probably less than 500 gamers within 100 miles that fit what I just described and you can't run a business on a base that small.
EDIT I will take back one reason I would go to D&B's to spend money on games. Gunblade NY and LA Machineguns. I don't care if they ever came home on any console. Those games are pointless without the massive guns that allow you to feel like a door gunner on a Blackhawk.
Oh and a 2 player Daytona USA cabinent was roughly $6,000 in 1995-96 when they hit the market. I can't tell you how many times I played that game drunk off my ass and if I won without wrecking decided I was good enough to get home LOL. It was my unofficial breathilizer.
The other stuff is mostly Sega and Namco machines that are vintage Model 2 and Model 3 arcade boards or the Namco and Midway equivilent. Sorry, but I have all of those games on a home system. I have Ferrari 355, Daytona USA, VF Evo, Time Crisis, Gauntlet Legends, Hydro Thunder etc.. Their classics games are on system selectors where you pick from a menu like the Midway Arcade Classics, I have that at home too.
That leaves a dancing game (Not DDR.), MOCAP Boxing and a properly scoped Silent Scope as about the only games that either aren't location based for the sake of being location based or something I own. D&B's doesn't invest heavily in the Japanese games that would get me back like Pop N Music. They don't have an F-Zero AX machine either. Hell, I'd go and drop $20-30 on those two games alone.
As far as a gaming center for LAN, rental or broadband play? I have a 4 MB down, 512K up cable connection. I'd need a T1 to go faster or SDSL. Not only that but I have 220 games. If I want it, I have it.
So there, I'm the perfect would be arcade customer. Love games, would spend the money, willing to spend/try on new games. Yet no one caters to me. I'm also a freak of nature in the gaming public and know it. Why? Because there are probably less than 500 gamers within 100 miles that fit what I just described and you can't run a business on a base that small.
EDIT I will take back one reason I would go to D&B's to spend money on games. Gunblade NY and LA Machineguns. I don't care if they ever came home on any console. Those games are pointless without the massive guns that allow you to feel like a door gunner on a Blackhawk.
Oh and a 2 player Daytona USA cabinent was roughly $6,000 in 1995-96 when they hit the market. I can't tell you how many times I played that game drunk off my ass and if I won without wrecking decided I was good enough to get home LOL. It was my unofficial breathilizer.
Strider Turbulance
Sega, Namco and the other don't release $1 a play games. They release $2000-$5000 games, that arcade operators have to charge $1/play on to have a chance a making any money on.
Let's compare, if you will, two very different, but popular, games in the arcade today, DDR and Soul Calibur 2. Let's say DDR costs $1 for a 3 song game, and Soul Calibur 2 Costs $.50 for a best out of 3 game. For the sake of comparison, let's assume these popular games are constantly being played evey minute of the day for an arcade open (10am-9pm) 11 hours/day.
DDR: a 3 song game is 4.5 minutes of "dance time", plus lets figure an average of an additional minute for song selection, score reading, etc. So, for every 5.5 minutes of play time, DDR brings in $1/player.
Worst Case: 1 player playing = 5.5 minutes/$
Best Case: 2 players playing = 2.75minutes/$
SC2: Best of 3, 60 second round time
Worst Case scenario: single player, 8 fights(story mode), all rounds time out, 3rounds/fight = 24 minutes for $.50 or 48minutes/$
Best Case: 2 players, winner stays, loser pays, 2 fight victory, average round time 30 seconds = 1 minute/$.50 or 2 minutes/$
Daily Totals:
DDR Worst : $120/day
DDR Best: $240/day
SC2 worst: $13.75/day
SC2 best: $330/day
You can fit at least 3 SC2 cabinets in the space required by 1 DDR machine. So your best case for SC2 jumps up to $990/day as compared to $240 for DDR. You can more easily convert another game to play SC2 (just the cost of the board, and *maybe* to re-do the control panel, let's say $1200 new, pays for itself in about 4 days best case). For DDR, you'll need to purchase a cabinet, as you're less likely to have anything laying around that can be used, Channel Beat is selling new DDR 7th Mix cabinets for $5500 including shipping, that won't pay for itself for 23 days, best case.
And when was the last time you saw a cabinet in full use for a full 11 hour day? For 23 consecutive days?
And you haven't even factored in costs for space, electric, employees, state licenses, or your own salary.
Arcades are just too expensive to run these days. Consoles don't help (play of a game drops significantly once the home console version is released), but they aren't the root cause. Arcade vendors went to the JAMMA standard because the cost of buying a new cabinet for each and every game was too high, but now they're doing the same thing with these specialized controls.
Sega, Namco and the other don't release $1 a play games. They release $2000-$5000 games, that arcade operators have to charge $1/play on to have a chance a making any money on.
Let's compare, if you will, two very different, but popular, games in the arcade today, DDR and Soul Calibur 2. Let's say DDR costs $1 for a 3 song game, and Soul Calibur 2 Costs $.50 for a best out of 3 game. For the sake of comparison, let's assume these popular games are constantly being played evey minute of the day for an arcade open (10am-9pm) 11 hours/day.
DDR: a 3 song game is 4.5 minutes of "dance time", plus lets figure an average of an additional minute for song selection, score reading, etc. So, for every 5.5 minutes of play time, DDR brings in $1/player.
Worst Case: 1 player playing = 5.5 minutes/$
Best Case: 2 players playing = 2.75minutes/$
SC2: Best of 3, 60 second round time
Worst Case scenario: single player, 8 fights(story mode), all rounds time out, 3rounds/fight = 24 minutes for $.50 or 48minutes/$
Best Case: 2 players, winner stays, loser pays, 2 fight victory, average round time 30 seconds = 1 minute/$.50 or 2 minutes/$
Daily Totals:
DDR Worst : $120/day
DDR Best: $240/day
SC2 worst: $13.75/day
SC2 best: $330/day
You can fit at least 3 SC2 cabinets in the space required by 1 DDR machine. So your best case for SC2 jumps up to $990/day as compared to $240 for DDR. You can more easily convert another game to play SC2 (just the cost of the board, and *maybe* to re-do the control panel, let's say $1200 new, pays for itself in about 4 days best case). For DDR, you'll need to purchase a cabinet, as you're less likely to have anything laying around that can be used, Channel Beat is selling new DDR 7th Mix cabinets for $5500 including shipping, that won't pay for itself for 23 days, best case.
And when was the last time you saw a cabinet in full use for a full 11 hour day? For 23 consecutive days?
And you haven't even factored in costs for space, electric, employees, state licenses, or your own salary.
Arcades are just too expensive to run these days. Consoles don't help (play of a game drops significantly once the home console version is released), but they aren't the root cause. Arcade vendors went to the JAMMA standard because the cost of buying a new cabinet for each and every game was too high, but now they're doing the same thing with these specialized controls.
PittsburghAfterDark
CAGiversary!
"And when was the last time you saw a cabinet in full use for a full 11 hour day? For 23 consecutive days? "
Not since Pac Man, Donkey Kong and Ms. Pac Man ruled the day. Oh, those machines also cost $2,500-3,000. Arcade cabinets have always been that high. You're looking at an 8 player Daytona setup that costs $50k.
There's no way to make decent money on arcade's in this country anymore. LBE's are the last best hope of coin-op in the US because they can make money on obscene drink prices and reasonable food prices.
EDIT: I think one factor that no one has brought up is the rapid price drops of home entertainment as well. Think about this, you were able to go out in February or March and buy Beyond Good & Evil, Prince of Persia, XIII, I: Ninja, R: Racing, Metal Arms and countless other top notch holiday releases for $19.99. Even Rallisport Challenge 2 dropped to $29.99 and it hasn't been out 60 days. What arcade game can hold a candle to that? Would you invest $10,000 in a new machine only to have it be obsolete, looked over etc. in 90-180 days?
Why as a gamer do I want to go buy a Power Card for $20-30 and have nothing to show for it when I can go get something a couple months old, possibly with online play that I'll have and enjoy for days, weeks or months. It's an impossible to win battle. As much as I try to look for reasons to support arcades and the continued development of new titles I have little to no interest in going. Financially it doesn't make sense especially since I could go to Best Buy and walk out the door with 3+ games for the same amount I would have spent at D&B's.
Not since Pac Man, Donkey Kong and Ms. Pac Man ruled the day. Oh, those machines also cost $2,500-3,000. Arcade cabinets have always been that high. You're looking at an 8 player Daytona setup that costs $50k.
There's no way to make decent money on arcade's in this country anymore. LBE's are the last best hope of coin-op in the US because they can make money on obscene drink prices and reasonable food prices.
EDIT: I think one factor that no one has brought up is the rapid price drops of home entertainment as well. Think about this, you were able to go out in February or March and buy Beyond Good & Evil, Prince of Persia, XIII, I: Ninja, R: Racing, Metal Arms and countless other top notch holiday releases for $19.99. Even Rallisport Challenge 2 dropped to $29.99 and it hasn't been out 60 days. What arcade game can hold a candle to that? Would you invest $10,000 in a new machine only to have it be obsolete, looked over etc. in 90-180 days?
Why as a gamer do I want to go buy a Power Card for $20-30 and have nothing to show for it when I can go get something a couple months old, possibly with online play that I'll have and enjoy for days, weeks or months. It's an impossible to win battle. As much as I try to look for reasons to support arcades and the continued development of new titles I have little to no interest in going. Financially it doesn't make sense especially since I could go to Best Buy and walk out the door with 3+ games for the same amount I would have spent at D&B's.
senorwoohoo
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I miss the feeling of going to the arcade and playing a game like the Simpsons or TMNT2 but things like that happen...Now I just go to D&B whenever I can(once every 4-5 months) and play a few games but mostly ticket games...
I too am located in the Pittsburgh area, and I agree wholeheartedly with you about the state of gaming here. I can remember a day when arcades were plentiful here and every pizza shop had a Galaga in it. Sadly, I thought that Kennywood had a GREAT arcade for many years, with a really nice mix of classic / new (not to mention my fave - sit down Power Drift) , but alas it too seems to be caving to the demands of a newer generation - the last time I was there, a good number of their classics were either gone, part of a multi-game mame style cab, or in a state of disrepair - not being able to change altitude in Zaxxon doesn't make for a very rewarding experience. I haven't made the trip for a few years now, but Cedar Point in Sandusky, OH used to have a phenominal arcade - the last time I was there I was happily playing Tempest, Starhawk (!), Berserk and a TON of old classics - anyone know if it's still as great as it once was?
CarmenJubei
CAGiversary!
[quote name='CaseyRyback']Its because the innovation that took place in the Japanese market never took place here in the US[/quote]
good point~
and actually, if there were really a decline in arcade, it maybe only happening in the north america as you ppls are not wishing to spend money on arcade, instead, getting home video games, finished it fast, and exchange for a new one or trade in for another piece (that's what i have read from the other ppls posts previously, on US forums only tho)
In Japan, the arcade business is not declining at all~ it has always been so crowdy in any japan arcade centers, not only there are always new games, but the style of how japanese playing arcade games are very different from the americans. for say if they lose a fighting game from an oppenent, they will immediately continue and challenge again by inserting coins over and over until, hopefully, they win again. I have been to most asia acarde centers and north america ones, and I can tell the difference. I am not saying that money is not an issue for the japanese gamers, but then they just don't play arcade the ways the americans do. if you are skillful enough, a challenger can continue up to 20 times with you and end up saying thank you to you even he had just lost 20 games from you. they will see that as an honor to play with some high rank or skillful oppenents instead of thinking an asshole that had just wasted him 20 bucks or so. oh well, the asia arcade business is not declining at all as from what I can see
good point~
and actually, if there were really a decline in arcade, it maybe only happening in the north america as you ppls are not wishing to spend money on arcade, instead, getting home video games, finished it fast, and exchange for a new one or trade in for another piece (that's what i have read from the other ppls posts previously, on US forums only tho)
In Japan, the arcade business is not declining at all~ it has always been so crowdy in any japan arcade centers, not only there are always new games, but the style of how japanese playing arcade games are very different from the americans. for say if they lose a fighting game from an oppenent, they will immediately continue and challenge again by inserting coins over and over until, hopefully, they win again. I have been to most asia acarde centers and north america ones, and I can tell the difference. I am not saying that money is not an issue for the japanese gamers, but then they just don't play arcade the ways the americans do. if you are skillful enough, a challenger can continue up to 20 times with you and end up saying thank you to you even he had just lost 20 games from you. they will see that as an honor to play with some high rank or skillful oppenents instead of thinking an asshole that had just wasted him 20 bucks or so. oh well, the asia arcade business is not declining at all as from what I can see
I think something everybody is missing here is the attitude towrds kids themselves. Every evening on the news there is a story or 12 about the "Decline of America's Youth." Many members of the older generations are very afraid of the youth because of it. Any place were youth can hang out and socialize is general squashed before it can become a headline.
To make matters worse, the American policing policy is currently what is know as the "Broken Window Policy." What this means is if one youth is say walkin the streets late at night, even if they are breaking no laws, they are considered a threat because of there likleyhood off attracting other youths. Even if only 1 out of 100 youths on the street at night is going to cause trouble, harrassing the other 99 youths is worth it, according to the policy.
Americas attitude towards youth is to blame.
The young are seen only as $$ not peaple. And in an industry were MTV, Mountain Dew, & Columbia records isn't makeing millions daily from the youth - it's beter to let the police and 60 minutes crowd take care of it.
To make matters worse, the American policing policy is currently what is know as the "Broken Window Policy." What this means is if one youth is say walkin the streets late at night, even if they are breaking no laws, they are considered a threat because of there likleyhood off attracting other youths. Even if only 1 out of 100 youths on the street at night is going to cause trouble, harrassing the other 99 youths is worth it, according to the policy.
Americas attitude towards youth is to blame.
The young are seen only as $$ not peaple. And in an industry were MTV, Mountain Dew, & Columbia records isn't makeing millions daily from the youth - it's beter to let the police and 60 minutes crowd take care of it.
Indiana
CAGiversary!
I see three major reasons they have declined
1. Home consoles have become much more powerful allowing the arcades to be played at home.
2. Rental video games have allowed kids to get more for their money. You can rent a game for $2-$6 and play for a weekend or all week. That money lasts about 30 minutes to an hour in the arcades.
3. The arcades jacked their prices through the roof moving to 75 cents to a dollar for a single play.
1. Home consoles have become much more powerful allowing the arcades to be played at home.
2. Rental video games have allowed kids to get more for their money. You can rent a game for $2-$6 and play for a weekend or all week. That money lasts about 30 minutes to an hour in the arcades.
3. The arcades jacked their prices through the roof moving to 75 cents to a dollar for a single play.
[quote name='daikaiju']
I too am located in the Pittsburgh area, and I agree wholeheartedly with you about the state of gaming here. I can remember a day when arcades were plentiful here and every pizza shop had a Galaga in it. Sadly, I thought that Kennywood had a GREAT arcade for many years, with a really nice mix of classic / new (not to mention my fave - sit down Power Drift) , but alas it too seems to be caving to the demands of a newer generation - the last time I was there, a good number of their classics were either gone, part of a multi-game mame style cab, or in a state of disrepair - not being able to change altitude in Zaxxon doesn't make for a very rewarding experience. I haven't made the trip for a few years now, but Cedar Point in Sandusky, OH used to have a phenominal arcade - the last time I was there I was happily playing Tempest, Starhawk (!), Berserk and a TON of old classics - anyone know if it's still as great as it once was?[/quote]
theres an arcade downtown, on either smithfeild or wood. its about 2 blocks down from blvd. never been in it, but it has alot of games
I too am located in the Pittsburgh area, and I agree wholeheartedly with you about the state of gaming here. I can remember a day when arcades were plentiful here and every pizza shop had a Galaga in it. Sadly, I thought that Kennywood had a GREAT arcade for many years, with a really nice mix of classic / new (not to mention my fave - sit down Power Drift) , but alas it too seems to be caving to the demands of a newer generation - the last time I was there, a good number of their classics were either gone, part of a multi-game mame style cab, or in a state of disrepair - not being able to change altitude in Zaxxon doesn't make for a very rewarding experience. I haven't made the trip for a few years now, but Cedar Point in Sandusky, OH used to have a phenominal arcade - the last time I was there I was happily playing Tempest, Starhawk (!), Berserk and a TON of old classics - anyone know if it's still as great as it once was?[/quote]
theres an arcade downtown, on either smithfeild or wood. its about 2 blocks down from blvd. never been in it, but it has alot of games
Upon reading the previous posts and giving the whole thing a little more thought, one things seems to stick in my mind. The Jamma standard. This was created in mind to keep overhead costs down for the arcade operator, and standardize the hardware to some degree. Lower operating cost for the operator often equates directly to increased revenue potential. The thing is, today - there seem to be fewer and fewer standardized layout games, where there are more and more dedicated sit down racers, gun games and the like - all with extremely large / specialized / costly hardware. Perhaps the industry could experience a bit of a revival if it could do a couple things:
a.) decrease cost of hardware - granted a $16,000 sit down F355 is very cool, but surely revenue could be generated on a cheaper, more standard style cabinet...which brings me to...
b.) interface innovation - not every inventive game to come down the pike has to have a giant dance mat or oversized force feedback m-16 size rifle...what about specialized controls that would be CHEAPER yet still unique? Trackball games would be a good example of this (Super Monkey Ball? Crystal Castles? Marble Madness?) or perhaps the specialized button layout of a game (Defender? Stargate? Forgotten Worlds?). Even simplicity has it's place - look at say Joust or Pacman...not to mention dual joysticks ala Robotron 2084.
These things might not only decrease owner/operating cost but also give the player a unique arcade experience that can't be found in the home. Perhaps it's no fluke that Namco's split classic re-issue games seem fairly successful. Anyone else have any thoughts?
a.) decrease cost of hardware - granted a $16,000 sit down F355 is very cool, but surely revenue could be generated on a cheaper, more standard style cabinet...which brings me to...
b.) interface innovation - not every inventive game to come down the pike has to have a giant dance mat or oversized force feedback m-16 size rifle...what about specialized controls that would be CHEAPER yet still unique? Trackball games would be a good example of this (Super Monkey Ball? Crystal Castles? Marble Madness?) or perhaps the specialized button layout of a game (Defender? Stargate? Forgotten Worlds?). Even simplicity has it's place - look at say Joust or Pacman...not to mention dual joysticks ala Robotron 2084.
These things might not only decrease owner/operating cost but also give the player a unique arcade experience that can't be found in the home. Perhaps it's no fluke that Namco's split classic re-issue games seem fairly successful. Anyone else have any thoughts?
Gameboy415
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The only arcade I know about in the Chicago area (north side) is Dennis's Place for Games. They have just about every fighting game you could want, a Pump-It-Up machine, and a few classics tucked in the corners. They had an Atomiswave for a while but it was gone last time I checked
I don't go there much just because I can play ANY of the games they have there on a console (save for Pump it UP) but they have had some crazy deals in the past few months. Like 9 quarter for a buck or 90 quarters for $20. Most of their games are .50 or less too if I remember correctly.
I don't go there much just because I can play ANY of the games they have there on a console (save for Pump it UP) but they have had some crazy deals in the past few months. Like 9 quarter for a buck or 90 quarters for $20. Most of their games are .50 or less too if I remember correctly.
[quote name='Gameboy415']
I don't go there much just because I can play ANY of the games they have there on a console (save for Pump it UP) but they have had some crazy deals in the past few months. Like 9 quarter for a buck or 90 quarters for $20. Most of their games are .50 or less too if I remember correctly.[/quote]
Pump It Up may be coming to consoles soon
Does this arcade use quarters or tokens. You said quarters but I figured you probably meant tokens since at 9 quarters for $1, I would bring every $1 bill I had there and get $2.25 in quarters.
I don't go there much just because I can play ANY of the games they have there on a console (save for Pump it UP) but they have had some crazy deals in the past few months. Like 9 quarter for a buck or 90 quarters for $20. Most of their games are .50 or less too if I remember correctly.[/quote]
Pump It Up may be coming to consoles soon
Does this arcade use quarters or tokens. You said quarters but I figured you probably meant tokens since at 9 quarters for $1, I would bring every $1 bill I had there and get $2.25 in quarters.
randomizer9
CAG Veteran
I think another factor are the types of games that are being played these days. In the early days, gaming was all about getting the highest score. Today games are more story-driven; RPG's, action-adventure, even some racing games now incorporate story elements.
bread's done