You Can Have Free Speech: Only If It Bashes Bush

BATTLE OVER PRO-BUSH SIGN AT BOSTON PIZZERIA
Fri Jul 23 2004 11:19:45 ET

The 24-foot-long sign at Halftime Pizza across the street from Boston's FleetCenter isn't exactly welcoming to the Democratic National Convention: "Say!!!!! D.N.C. Thanks for Nothing!!! Go Bush."

Security measures and the availability of free food for delegates led Mark Pasquale, owner of Halftime, to shut his restaurant down for the week of the convention and erect the sign.

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On Friday, WRKO-AM's Peter Blute and Scott Allen Miller reported how Pasquale has been confronted by city inspectors who have threatened to fine him unless he takes the anti-Dem sign down!

Pasquale told Blute and Scotto that while he doesn't want any trouble, he will continue to exercise his First Amendment rights by keeping the sign up in spite of any fines.

Wait a minute. Where's the tolerance? Where's the free speech? What about the patriotic duty to dissent against the majority?

Although Bush is the biggest douche ever, that is absolutely ridiculous that he'd get fined for that.

I thought that this was something that only the right was guilty of, but I guess the left is just as bad. Some protesters were directed to a roped-off "free speech zone" (http://baltimorechronicle.com/052704FreeSpeechZones.shtml) as Bush drove past, while Bush supporters were free to stand on the curb.

Aren't both of these incidents blatantly unconstitutional?

Well... he's actually dissenting against the minority party at the moment.

He's got every right to display his sign and they should leave him alone unless he's violating some zoning ordinance with the sign (but that would be kinda sketchy).

Interesting title for this thread though in the wake of Linda Ronstadt getting ejected from the Aladdin and Whoopi Goldberg getting dropped as a spokesman.

Those were both business decisions. This is clearly government censorship there is a sharp and distinct difference.

No one fined Linda Ronstadt, she ceased to be a performer a private entity would hire as an entertainer. No one fined Whoopi Goldberg, she was dropped after a vocal minority expressed displeasure at her profiting from being a spokesperson.

This is government involvement. This is censorship. This is the government telling someone take that sign down or we will bring the power of government against you and do you monetary harm. Unlike the other two cases which were private industry making business decisions this is REAL censorship.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']

Wait a minute. Where's the tolerance? Where's the free speech? What about the patriotic duty to dissent against the majority?[/quote]

Remember the majority voted for Gore.

Do you have a source for this story? That photo just looks really fake to me.

The reason for this isn't censoring him because he's voicing his opinion, the reason is it could cost the city money. Dem. & Rep. National Conventions usually make the hosting city TONS of money, so every effort is made to bend over backwords for the conventions. Chicago, for example, took fire hoses to any homeless people anywere near viewing distance of the convention or the travel routes to the convention, so as to make the city look nicer for it's guests. New parks were made, and then closed to the public in an effort to make the city look better.

The same thing would happen with a pro-Nader sign anywere, or a pro-Dem. sign outside a Rep. convention.

It sucks, but its a fact of life in the corporate run pseudo-democracy we call America.

I was thinking the same thing jmcc

[quote name='jmcc']Do you have a source for this story? That photo just looks really fake to me.[/quote]

Just search google news for text from the article.

Kids today are so darn lazy...

There's something everyone is missing.. if the sign is against city ordinance.. they have every right to fine him. You have the freedom of speech, but that doesn't give you the right to erect an 80 foot dildo in the middle of Times Square with the words John Kerry Sucks Cock on the base of it.

If city ordinances ban signs or banners of that ilk, then he should get fined, he's breaking those ordinances. If there's not one, then they have no legal right to fall on.

They probably sent the anti bush protesters to a roped off place due to security measures.
The chances of maybe 1 of them wanting to throw an egg or something at him, or even worse if there was somebody who REALLY hated him wanting to throw something worse at him would create a security incident and disrupt his appearance. Not saying there was somebody like that but it happened to Arnold and Bill gates and if something like that happened to bush you can bet the SS would be all over the place and creating a huge incident.
It's better to keep those chances to a minimum.

Yeah, I'm not sure this is a censorship issue. I wager it would be the same regardless of who's name was on the sign. The funny thing is, he'll likely end up getting his place vandalized by the rebel scum by the time the DNC is over should he keep the sign up, so the city is really doing him a favor by trying to get him to take the sign down.

[quote name='eldad9'][quote name='jmcc']Do you have a source for this story? That photo just looks really fake to me.[/quote]

Just search google news for text from the article.

Kids today are so darn lazy...[/quote]

I searched google and found articles about the sign, but not about the possible fine.

^^

The rebel scum... we have a rebellion going on I didn't know about?

[quote name='Cornfedwb']^^

The rebel scum... we have a rebellion going on I didn't know about?[/quote]

That's the detention block for you, mister!

[quote name='Supernothing'][quote name='eldad9'][quote name='jmcc']Do you have a source for this story? That photo just looks really fake to me.[/quote]

Just search google news for text from the article.

Kids today are so darn lazy...[/quote]

I searched google and found articles about the sign, but not about the possible fine.[/quote]

The original post is from Drudgereport.com

While free speach does have it's place there is a thing called City laws which may prohibit him from hanging such a sign on his downtown business.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/l...,0,4495627.story?coll=ny-topstories-headlines

Anti-Bush sign brings brief free-speech battle
Posting anti-Bush sentiments on his Great Neck lawn lands a local man in a brief battle for free speech


By VÍctor Manuel Ramos
Staff Writer

July 7, 2004

Ronald Kienhuis wanted to incite his Great Neck neighbors and passersby when he placed a sign in his front lawn about a week ago.

"BUSH MUST GO!" proclaimed the sign, which Kienhuis purchased recently at an upstate Ithaca bookstore. "Dump emperor George W," read the punch line he wrote underneath.


And incite others he did.

First, one neighbor told Kienhuis that someone complained about his sign to the Village of Great Neck. A code inspector showed up. Shortly after, a "notice of violation" arrived from the village ordering him to take the sign down - although the village backed out of its warning yesterday.

Someone also left Kienhuis an anonymous letter asking him to put the sign away. Finally, the sign disappeared over the Fourth of July weekend.

Kienhuis got some cardboard and a marker and made another sign. It's on his lawn again.

"When I put the sign up, I thought in the back of my mind that it would be either defaced or stolen, because there is underlying polarization on this issue, but I was surprised" with the village's warning, said Kienhuis, 54, in Great Neck for more than 40 years.

The village cited a 1996 ordinance that regulates residential signs. It permits signs with street numbers, names and professions of residents, for-sale and for-rent signs, "and no others."

The "notice of violation," signed by village Inspector Joseph D. Kelly, told Kienhuis' parents, who own the property and live nearby, that the house "is in violation" while ordering them "TO REMEDY THE SITUATION NOTED IMMEDIATELY," or risk a summons.

The anonymous letter essentially told Kienhuis, courteously, that neighborhood property values, which the letter writer feared would plunge with anti-Bush rhetoric, matter more than free speech. "A sign of this nature," the letter went, "will most certainly make it difficult for your neighbors to sell their homes."

Calls to the village's building department, to village attorney Stephen Limmer and to Mayor Richard Deem went unanswered yesterday - but a suited man who identified himself as a village employee showed up at Kienhuis' home late yesterday to deliver a cancellation of the warning. The same letter Kienhuis had previously gotten from the village was now stamped in large letters "ISSUED IN ERROR."

Kienhuis had called the Nassau chapter of the New York Civil Liberties Union in Mineola, which was ready to fight for his First Amendment rights.

"This is absolutely basic free speech. There is nothing more basic," said Barbara Bernstein, the chapter's director. "The only thing that's restricted in public speech is libel, obscenity, threats and fraud, but pure political expression is carved in stone in our history."

Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.

If it's a zoning issue that's on the books, today, it is not censorship. There was nothing brought up in any sourcing on the article that indicates it is a zoning issue. I would freely concede it wasn't cenorship if it is a zoning issue.

However if he is covering his sign inch for inch a sign that has been approved for zoning for his business it is censorship. The picture is sourced from Yahoo's website. You can tell the url contains "http://us.news2.yimg.com" in it.

Now judge the reaction of this ONE sign from posters here to how 200,000-500,000 protestors are kept away from Madison Square Garden and the Republican convention. You wanna bet I can frame these same arguments made by Kerry supporters word for word and they'll say it doesn't apply to anti-Bush supporters?

EDIT: BZZZZZ! Wrong answer.

The reason for this isn't censoring him because he's voicing his opinion, the reason is it could cost the city money.

Click to expand...

Too bad. Doesn't matter. Irrelevant. The reason Chicago and other cities move homeless away from conventions is simple and legal. The ordinances against sleeping on sidewalks, loitering and the like are already on the books. They are only enforced during conventions. The rest of the time the are not enforced even though they could be.

How do endless rows of porn stores and theaters not cost cities money? How do sections of the city overrun with drug dealers and prostitution not costing cities money? Cities are rife with things that cost them money, residents and tourists. One sign, one measly little sign when the left has promised half a million protestors will descend on NYC next month is patently ridiculous.

The hypocracy is apparent for all to see.

Free speech/Linda Rhonstadt/Boston Pizza place/ lawn sign property values... etc.


Some people need to mellow out a bit, If i'm at a concert and the very last thing I hear " I would like to dedicate this next song to John Ashcroft" I'm not gonna freak out and walk out or throw things.. now if its stated over and over maybe I'll say..hmm I don't really care about this but good grief has everyone gotten so narrowminded that the only right opinion is your opinion. I don't agree with PittsburgAD most of the time but I still take the time to read and consider his opinions, I don't agree with some of the very liberal folks either many of the times, but I still think its beneficial to hear and think about what they are saying (if it a thoughtful opinion and not simply "I HATE BUSH' or I HATE KERRY'

Ronstadt gets audience walkout encore

By Bonita Brewer

CONTRA COSTA TIMES

LIVERMORE - Linda Ronstadt's political message sent close to a hundred concert-goers home early Thursday evening.

What had been a mellow evening at Wente Vineyards, with the crowd even serenading her with "Happy Birthday" at one point, turned into a rush for the exits by some fans angry by her encore tribute to filmmaker Michael Moore.

"She just had to do it," one fan steamed as he headed for the parking lot. "It was good until the end," another yelled to TV crews waiting outside the concert.

"She's getting out of line; it's ridiculous," said Cindy Williams of Livermore, as she left during the last song of the evening.

Ronstadt's encore dedication of the song "Desperado" to Moore, the controversial maker of "Fahrenheit 9/11" who she described Thursday as "a great American patriot," got her booted from a Las Vegas casino Saturday and drew cheers, some boos, and a few "traitor" yells from the Livermore crowd.

Until that last song, the concert had been an evening of good music and happy fans.

There was no shortage of conflicting opinions among the baby-boomer crowd, a sprinkling of them dressed in patriotic colors, but it was no referendum on the war in Iraq, no pro- or anti-Bush lovefest, or even a meeting of the Michael Moore fan club.

Concert-goers, who paid from $99 to $249 each for tickets, were well aware of the controversy, but said they just wanted to enjoy the songs.

"I love her music, but I hate her politics, and I hope she just sings," said Tina Uzelac of Livermore, who arrived wearing a flag sweater. "These tickets are pretty high-priced, and we're not paying to go to a political rally."

On Saturday, Ronstadt was booed by some audience members at the Aladdin hotel-casino, then booted from the hotel by management after dedicating her "Desperado" encore to Moore and his film,, which excoriates President Bush over the war in Iraq.

Ronstadt won over the Livermore crowd after her first jazzy number, backed by the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra.

"Normally we end the show with 'Desperado,' but tonight we'll end with 'Viva Las Vegas,'" the singer said, drawing laughs, a long, warm cheer and a few grunts from the crowd of 1,750.

"There are too many Republicans in Vegas," Mike Donnelly of Clayton said before the show. "I think the response (to her remarks) has been ridiculous and ludicrous."

Corey and Susan Tate of Livermore came to the concert with a gift for Ronstadt -- an American flag, with a note on its paper wrapper: "To Linda, a patriot. Bless you."

"I've been listening to Linda since 1967. She has been a standard-bearer for liberal causes, and I'm glad she spoke up ... People like her represent America; it's not just people with conservative views," Corey Tate said.

The controversy created a sellout, said Wente president Carolyn Wente.

About 20 people angered by Ronstadt's comments dropped plans to attend, but their traded-in tickets were snatched up and the show was sold out Wednesday.

"It was just a handful (turning in tickets) when you consider there are 1,700 folks coming," Wente said before the show.

Wente said she did not ask Ronstadt to refrain from any political comments.

"We don't take any position on any of our artists' political thoughts or perceptions," she said.

With her comments Saturday, Ronstadt became the latest liberal musician to use the stage for political views, and another to suffer conservative backlash.

• In March 2003, Dixie Chicks lead singer Natalie Maines' comments against Bush and the Iraq war triggered a boycott by a group of more than 200 radio stations.

• At a recent John Kerry fund-raiser, actress Whoopi Goldberg made several crude puns on Bush's name, and complaints led to her firing as a spokeswoman for Florida-based Slim-Fast.

Here is some hypocracy for, this was posted before but this alleged Right wing free speech supression. Maybe Pittsburgh u could explain this http://www.wvgazettemail.com/static/stories/2004071346.html These people were arrested for wearing anti-bush t-shirts at a public rally. I would much rather have a fine then get arrested, plus this was while the president was there.

Hey PAD, this guy should put up his sign and keep it there. Free Speech should be for everybody.

The only real issue I have with him is it sounds like he's just getting back at the DNC convention for cheating him out of some business instead of being a full bred GOP supporter. It sounds like he would not put up the sign if there was a possibility that DNC delegates were going to come into his resturant and order food.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']

The hypocracy is apparent for all to see.[/quote]

I would add 'for all to see in both parties" I agree that many on the left want to surpress conservative thought (especially on some college campuses) I also agree that many on the right want to surpress liberal thought.

I think we can fill up this forum with 100's of pages of examples on both sides.

Yes, we could fill up with 100's of examples from both sides. ESPECIALLY from college and university campi'.

I'm not making an attempt at creating a censorship pissing contest. Which maybe I did. However I want to point out this is one sign, one sign covering a normal business sign, when the left has all but guaranteed half a million protestors at the Republican convention.

Now, the reaction of the Boston city government has been to threaten the guy with fines. The reacion of the NYPD to the threat of a half million protestors has been to educate their officers on crowd dispersal, on handling peaceful sit ins. They will no doubt be thousands of cameras in the protestors hands to record how they are treated. Meanwhile, one sign, one sign across the street is now a national controversy.

Half million protestors.... the RNC deserves it, Bush sucks, he stole the election, police better not be rough, everyone has to learn to put up with all of this because it's freedom of speech and political dissent. One sign on the pizza shop across the street? Damn, we'll fine that guy without precedent because the Dems might be offended.

LOL, I think you have it backwards...