MGS2 is way better than MGS3

Despite hating MGS3, I recently decided to give MGS2 a shot, and lo and behold, I've actually been enjoying it!

In fact, I'd say that with the exception of the graphics and the lameness of Raiden, it's otherwise better than MGS3 in every way. For one, there's the...

-Gameplay: Now, an overhead camera on its own is not a bad thing. Neither is no radar. But when you combine them together in an open environment, ala the original Snake Eater, you get nothing but frustration. But the camera/radar system works really well in MGS 2, It's simpler, less realistic, but a heck of a lot more fun to play. I actually feel like I'm stealthy this time around and not just trying to guess where the enemies are and how susceptable they are to my camoflauge while I crawl in the grass. The combat is still a bit crap, but I usually just let them kill me if I get an alert, then try it again. With Snake Eater, the frustration level was much higher.

-The cutscenes: While I still say the MGS series has at least twice as much cutscene time as it needs, I've been finding the movies in MGS2 a lot more interesting which is saying a lot since its graphics are so much crappier than Snake Eaters. The movies in MGS2 all seem to be advancing the plot, and it's always keeping me guessing just trying to figure it all out (made even more confusing by the fact that I've played very little of the first game). With Snake Eater the plot was too simple (I understood it fine with only minimal knowledge of the series), and it seemed to waste way too much cutscene time showing boring crap like Ocelot spinning his gun forever and just all around being a showboat. And I felt the characters were all cheesy stereotypes in Snake Eater, and while that's also true of MGS2, it bothers me a lot less since the writing is so much more plot based than character based. If you're going to make an espionage political thriller/horror game, you don't want to waste time getting to know everyone's backstory. You just want to get to the bottom of what's going on. This was something Killer 7 had going for it, that I felt Snake Eater did not.

And while I still say the series is too cheesy to really be deep in any kind of artistic sense, and there's way too many cutscenes, and the combat is still annoying, I can actually see what people see in the series now. I could still change my mind (I'm at the point where I just fought Fortune), but so far I'm pretty intrigued by this game.

Except you're wrong, because MGS3 shits on MGS2's gameplay and storyline. Especially the story.

Have you beaten both games yet? If not, come back to me once you do (if you have, then are you serious? -_-;; ). ;P

IMO, I think it is better to finish mgs2 before 3, because you can appreciate the story a lot more, but that is just me. The reason I like 3 so much is because you get to see how the story began pretty much, and who the father of solid snake was before outer heaven, and a little glimpse of why Big Boss turned out to be the person he became. Plus the boss battles were way better than mgs2 imo. Don't get me wrong, I do like mgs2, but I found 3 a lot more enjoyable, especially in the story. Hopefully you get a chance to finish both if you have not done so yet.

Also, I am pretty sure people have told you to try mgs3:subsistence if you hate the camera system so much. Again, assuming that you have not finished 2 yet, I am sure you will want to try 3 again once you do complete the game.

edit: I guess you are not done with mgs2 and 3. I also read in the other thread that you have not finished mgs1. Uhh, I think you should really go back and play that game first or at least get your hands on mgs:the twin snakes for the gamecube if you dislike the original one so much. It plays a lot like mgs2 with updated graphics/gameplay.

MGS3's storys is easier to follow since its the first part of the story.

And get Substance so theres no overhead cam and the game is alot more enjoyable that way.

After playing all MG games, I still say that Snake Eater is the best one. It also has one of the greatest endings ever.

You had to make 2 threads about how much you dislike MGS3? Why not just combine this with the thread you already have about this game?

I actually preferred MGS 2 (Substance on the PS2) as well. I guess I just really loved the futuristic setting. I didn't think Raiden was a bad character either which would probably put me in the minority in preferring this game. I also thought the bosses were cooler simply because of Vamp and I actually like MGS 2's storyline better just because there's so much shit going on.

That said, I'm an MGS whore and I love both games.

in MGS3 you pretty much know what's going to happen but you get surprised by many little things along the way (and the overall presentation.) In K7, you have no idea what's going to happen, then get smashed over the head with the plot at the last minute, so it's really not a fair comparison.

anyway, MGS3 was a lot more entertaining to me and Subsistence's gameplay felt a lot better than Substance, though they are both great.

I don't know, man. I thought MGS3 was hell of a lot better than MGS2, but what do I know?

Both games are great.

MGS 2 had much tighter controls than MGS 3, did anyone else notice that?

It's a great series, but I think it's the setting that really decides which game people will prefer.

I liked both games, but MGS 3 I think was better.

I was talking to a coworker of mine about this and he agreed with me. The way he worded it was that "MGS3 was too technical." He was reffering to the camoflauge, the self-surgery, and the several little gadgets meant to make up for the lack of radar. The surgery and camoflauge were especially pointelss since they were easy to perform and didn't really affect gameplay except being just another thing to learn. Sometimes, less is more. As far as the radar vs other gizmos goes, that's pretty subjective, but I like the tried and true cones of sight to avoid.

I like MGS2 more than 3 as well. I hae played through 2 probably 20 times and have played through 3 only twice. Not knocking 3 since it is really good, 2 is just an all time personal favorite and I love pretty much everything about it aside from Rose. The theme of MGS2 was something I really liked and was drawn to.

FINALLY PEOPLE THAT AGREE WITH ME.

I got into MGS2 so much more than 3. I loved everything about it (including the crazy story) and it was incredible for its time. MGS2 is my second favorite game of the "current generation" behind KOTOR.

Hehe, you love the story of MGS2 but you haven't finished the game yet. Let us know when you actually get to the end.... :lol:

There were things about both that I liked better than the other. The gameplay was better in MGS2, mainly because the healing system was just annoying. I actually did enjoying eating and camo though.

MGS2's story was better in certain aspects. What Kojima did with the story, and using Raiden to substitute the player into it, thus proving the S3 plan, was great. MGS3's story was far more emotional though. I also felt more connected with it.

Finally while neither Dead Cell nor The Cobra Unit are anywhere near as cool as Foxhound when it comes to bosses, Cobra was better than Dead Cell. I HATED Dead Cell. Vamp, Fortune, Fatman, I hated them all. Awful characters. Also I don't care if you despise MGS3, you can't sit there and say that The Boss is not one of the greatest video game characters ever. Especially when you learn the truth about her defection.

About the only thing I think MGS2 did better than MGS3 was confuse the hell outta me with the story.

Now, I've been though some pretty complex stories before in games and a lesser extent some books. But the story of MGS2 is complete and utter nonsense near the second half of the game. I think MGS2 was the first (and only) time I actually said "SHUT THE UP ALREADY!" to a game.:lol:

But yeah, seriously, let us know if you feel the same way after you finish the game.

Ok, so I beat it! Here are my thoughts:

-I should note that I already knew the big "twist" in MGS2's plot; that most of the game was a simulation. I'd read it in some Snake Eater reviews. But there was still a lot of questions I had going through the game such as why were you being put through a simulation without your knowledge, and who was behind it? Sadly, by the end of the game, I was more confused than ever.

So was it all virtual reality or was it real? I was thinking it was all VR up until the Arsenal Gear chapter, but then there's still that stuff at the end about having retrieved the virus and the president killing himself. I got the impression that Otocon/Liquid (something that still continues to confuse me. So Liquid turned himself into an arm? I don't get it), had set up the events to simulate the first MGS, ala the Michael Douglas film, The Game. But that was real (as in in the real world. Not VR). But the setting of Arsenal Gear seemed very VR based, so I got confused on what was real and what wasn't. And I haven't even mentioned the not-quite-human simulated digital mind that was the codec Colonel and Rose. What the hell was that shit all about? Any help here? I was pretty tired by the end of it all.

-And while I can't say the plot sucked since I admittedly don't understand it, I would say the execution sucked. I know I've complained about the series having too long cutscenes before, but for the most part I was liking the fact that MGS2 had shorter, but more plentiful cutscenes than Snake Eater. And then came the ending. From the time I killed all the metal gears to the end of the final credits lasted an even hour, and I spent only about 5 minutes of that hour actually playing (when I fought the pathetically easy Solidus). Now that's just insane. Especially since that one codec conversation last about 20 minutes. Yikes! I was pretty amazed how much I didn't care by the end, since the part where you wake up in Arsenal Gear and the Colonel starts speaking jibberish was easily the point where I became most interested in the game's plot. How did it go from so good to such a nonsensical mind so fast?

-I'll still stick by my intiial hypothesis that MGS2 is ultimately a better game than Snake Eater (its original form anyway), because I still find the gameplay a lot more fun. And contrary to popular opinion, I didn't think the bosses in MGS2 sucked. In fact, I thought they were about on par with those in Snake Eater. Fatman and the fight with the Metal Gear were particularly fun, but Vamp was cool too. I didn't think Fortune and Olga were bad per se, but just really easy. But I consider them to be more like mini-bosses, so I didn't mind them. The only boss that really sucked was Solidus because of his relative ease and the poor sword controls. I'm not sure why that Rei no Otaku gy hates Dead Cell so much. I thought they were every bit as cartoonish and frightening as the Cobra unit. I liked fighting Fatman, and I thought Fortune was a pretty interesting character. I wouldn't say they were better than the Cobra unti, but on par.

[quote name='Rei no Otaku']
Finally while neither Dead Cell nor The Cobra Unit are anywhere near as cool as Foxhound when it comes to bosses, Cobra was better than Dead Cell. I HATED Dead Cell. Vamp, Fortune, Fatman, I hated them all. Awful characters. Also I don't care if you despise MGS3, you can't sit there and say that The Boss is not one of the greatest video game characters ever. Especially when you learn the truth about her defection.[/QUOTE]

I'd hate to be such an emo bitch about it, but the scene where we learn of the Boss' defection really annoys the crap out of me, because the chick who is narrating the tape is actually crying on the voice-over. I mean she was a secret agent for christ's sake. If she were going to leave this tape for Snake as a token of gratitude because he deserves to know the truth, that would have been one thing, but why does she have to sound so emotional on it? It's not like she didn't know how to act, being a secret agent and all. I just hate the fact that she cries because it's obviously just Kojima pandering down to the audience, like we wouldn't know it was sad without hearing her cry. And he already has the emotional music playing. The difference is that the music is good, so I didn't mind being manipulated by it, but the voice-acting was terrible and detracting from a scene that could have had so much power.

I guess it's not as bad as the hilarious sound-bytes of Otacon "crying" in MGS2, but at least that shit was so terribly done that it was absolutely hilarious.

I personally like MGS3: Subsistence more than MGS2. I am one of the few who liked the confusing story in the second one. However, I just felt gameplay wise, MGS3 improved it so much and the graphics are much better. Playing MGS2 again made me realize how bland the colors are on Big Shell. Either way though, just about all MGS games are on my top 100. I respect your opinion on which is better and there are some points that I agree with you.

Edit: It took me a while to understand the whole story in MGS2 after I beat it when I got it on launch.

I'll try to help, and give my theories.

So was it all virtual reality or was it real? I was thinking it was all VR up until the Arsenal Gear chapter, but then there's still that stuff at the end about having retrieved the virus and the president killing himself. I got the impression that Otocon/Liquid (something that still continues to confuse me. So Liquid turned himself into an arm? I don't get it), had set up the events to simulate the first MGS, ala the Michael Douglas film, The Game. But that was real (as in in the real world. Not VR). But the setting of Arsenal Gear seemed very VR based, so I got confused on what was real and what wasn't. And I haven't even mentioned the not-quite-human simulated digital mind that was the codec Colonel and Rose. What the hell was that shit all about? Any help here? I was pretty tired by the end of it all.

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First of all, everything was real. Real in the sense that it wasn't VR. The whole thing was a setup so the Patriots could test out the Selection for Societal Sanity. Basically they used Raiden to see if they could control someone. The whole time Raiden is being thrown in these ridiculous situations, and he still goes on with the mission. It was the Patriots saying "See, no matter what we say you'll do it." Kojima used the end part of the game to prove it on the player themselves. Using things like the Fission Mailed screen, and the Colonel telling you to turn the game off.

The Rose and Colonel at the end weren't real, but the "face" of GW. As for Liquid's arm, the reason he can come back through Ocelot is because Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow, and therefore can channel the dead.

I'd hate to be such an emo bitch about it, but the scene where we learn of the Boss' defection really annoys the crap out of me, because the chick who is narrating the tape is actually crying on the voice-over. I mean she was a secret agent for christ's sake. If she were going to leave this tape for Snake as a token of gratitude because he deserves to know the truth, that would have been one thing, but why does she have to sound so emotional on it? It's not like she didn't know how to act, being a secret agent and all. I just hate the fact that she cries because it's obviously just Kojima pandering down to the audience, like we wouldn't know it was sad without hearing her cry. And he already has the emotional music playing. The difference is that the music is good, so I didn't mind being manipulated by it, but the voice-acting was terrible and detracting from a scene that could have had so much power.

I guess it's not as bad as the hilarious sound-bytes of Otacon "crying" in MGS2, but at least that shit was so terribly done that it was absolutely hilarious.

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EVA was emotional about it, what's the problem? Just because she's a secret agent she has no emotions? As bad as she felt she still went through with her mission. Also why would she bother acting for Snake? A man she obviously had feelings for. There was no reason for her to put on a non-caring face in that situation. Getting a little nitpicky aren't we?

No, just no... MGS3 = Best in the series, MGS2 = worst, stupid ass story...

[quote name='Rei no Otaku']

The Rose and Colonel at the end weren't real, but the "face" of GW. As for Liquid's arm, the reason he can come back through Ocelot is because Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow, and therefore can channel the dead.


EVA was emotional about it, what's the problem? Just because she's a secret agent she has no emotions? As bad as she felt she still went through with her mission. Also why would she bother acting for Snake? A man she obviously had feelings for. There was no reason for her to put on a non-caring face in that situation. Getting a little nitpicky aren't we?[/QUOTE]

I know it sounds nitpicky, but I wasn't trying to be. It's just how I felt upon watching it. Maybe it just had to do with the poor delivery. If she just sounded a little sad I would've bought it, but the full on crying just seemed like too much. Like I was being hit over the head.

And I forgot that Ocelot was the son of the Sorrow (was that explained in Snake Eater?) So does that mean that it was Ocelot's idea for Liquid to take over his body? That whole thread confuses me. I may rent Twin Snakes one of these days, since I just can't get past the dated graphics and controls in the orignal MGS.

Oh, and by the way, if I do decide to check out Subsistence, does vibration make that big a difference in that game? Because the vibration in either my controllers or PS2 is busted. But aren't their visual cues in the motion detector and other gadgets that simulate the vibrations? It's been awhile since I played it.

The one thing I just don't get, what the is a Metal Gear for?

An ISBM can fire a much larger warhead, costs a hell of a lot less to build, can be assembled quickly, and has an effective range of about 4,000 (more or less depending on missile) miles. Plus, it can fire warhead into the ing stratosphere, from which they can drop and approach the target at a near 90 degree angle making them almost impossible to intercept.

How the hell can a walking tank with nuclear missle gun arms be better than that?

?

btw, 3 > 2
3 was way better. 2 was way easy and simple, plus the guards were really dumb. Plus the CQC stuff really improves the gameplay...

And I forgot that Ocelot was the son of the Sorrow (was that explained in Snake Eater?) So does that mean that it was Ocelot's idea for Liquid to take over his body? That whole thread confuses me. I may rent Twin Snakes one of these days, since I just can't get past the dated graphics and controls in the orignal MGS.

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One of the radio conversations tells you. I believe you have to call either EVA or Sigint after fighting Ocelot, and they tell you that he's the son of a great soldier who gave birth on the battlefield (The Boss). As for Liquid taking over, I believe it was just Liquid's greater will that prevailed over Ocelot's. The Liquid arm thing I didn't like at all either.

Vibration isn't a bid deal in Subsistance. I think one of the sonar devices might use it, but that's it. You don't need it.