Humble Bundle Thread

louiedog said:
No weekly bundle tomorrow.
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Syntax Error said:
I assumed he was speaking more of early "CRPG"s (as they used to be called) like Bard's Tale, Might & Magic or the SSI Gold Box games. Even in those though, there was a chance for making choices or approaching things in different manners. You might parley with a group of Orcs and intimidate them into leaving or choose to attack an NPC and loot him rather than perform his quest. Ultimately the quest line was the quest line (unlike Elder Scrolls games where you can ignore the quest forever) but there were still elements of decision making unlike Borderlands where the answer to every problem is "more bullets" or Diablo/Torchlight/Titan Quest where the answer is "more swords/spells" and the only real RPG elements are mechanical: levels, skill points, classes, etc.

That choice making is, in my mind, what sets an RPG apart from an ARPG. I have no issue with the term ARPG but I don't think of it as "action-based role playing" but rather "action game with mechanical RPG elements". Borderlands is an ARPG but I wouldn't call it an RPG.

But, once again, I don't really care what anyone else calls it. I'm just posting for the lulz and because there's not much else going on.
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All RPGs should be CRPGs (on the computer)!

And sure, some of those games gave you choices like that. Did all of them back then do so? Absolutely not. Ironic to your comments, there's actually a lot MORE choice in Borderlands compared to many "true" RPGs, as seen through the massive variety of choices between characters, equipment, and most of all in the skill trees. There are a hell of a lot of basic turn based RPGs that are utterly linear, most famously the Final Fantasy series.

And when you say "Diablo/Torchlight/Titan Quest where the answer is "more swords/spells" and the only real RPG elements are mechanical: levels, skill points, classes, etc.", I could just as easily say that the entirety of those game is fully RPG, and the only non-RPG element is the lack of choice. Hard to say a single arguably non-RPG element to game or genre = the whole game or genre being nearly invalidated as being an RPG.

In the end, if the thought here is that every RPG with a slightly different element or two of that of the original purist RPGs is not an RPG, alrighty. That's crazy to me, since there are variations within every genre of video game... ever... and they're still considered what they are. It's just being picky to a silly degree, imo.

Mooby said:
Er... am I missing something? FPS games are heavily dependent on the player's skill and not the character's skill. You could breeze through FO3 without investing in any perks whatsoever and 5's across the board in SPECIAL stats.
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Not exactly true. I've put hundreds of hours, possibly upwards of a thousand, into the Fallout FPS games, and while that's true of someone who's great at the game through early sections and on, it isn't true of later parts of the game. Try walking into Point Lookout or a Deathclaw nest with no skills built up and shitty stats. Good luck with that.

Of course, if you're playing on anything but hard or very hard mode, that's another story. The game is meant to be played at a higher difficulty once you've gotten accustomed to it. The lower levels are pretty easy and suited to new players.

 
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Idiotekque said:
All RPGs should be CRPGs (on the computer)!

And sure, some of those games gave you choices like that. Did all of them back then do so? Absolutely not. Ironic to your comments, there's actually a lot MORE choice in Borderlands compared to many "true" RPGs, as seen through the massive variety of choices between characters, equipment, and most of all in the skill trees. There are a hell of a lot of basic turn based RPGs that are utterly linear, most famously the Final Fantasy series.

And when you say "Diablo/Torchlight/Titan Quest where the answer is "more swords/spells" and the only real RPG elements are mechanical: levels, skill points, classes, etc.", I could just as easily say that the entirety of those game is fully RPG, and the only non-RPG element is the lack of choice. Hard to say a single arguably non-RPG element to game or genre = the whole game or genre being nearly invalidated as being an RPG.

In the end, if the thought here is that every RPG with a slightly different element or two of that of the original purist RPGs is not an RPG, alrighty. That's crazy to me, since there are variations within every genre of video game... ever... and they're still considered what they are. It's just being picky to a silly degree, imo.

Not exactly true. I've put hundreds of hours, possibly upwards of a thousand, into the Fallout FPS games, and while that's true of someone who's great at the game through early sections and on, it isn't true of later parts of the game. Try walking into Point Lookout or a Deathclaw nest with no skills built up and shitty stats. Good luck with that.

Of course, if you're playing on anything but hard or very hard mode, that's another story. The game is meant to be played at a higher difficulty once you've gotten accustomed to it. The lower levels are pretty easy and suited to new players.
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What choices are there to make in borderlands? To click accept or decline? To not turn in bounty quest #200? Do you have to practice being this dim or does it just come naturally now?

 
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Bruticis said:
What choices are there to make in borderlands? To click accept or decline? To not turn in bounty quest #200? Do you have to practice being this dim or does it just come naturally now?
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Can you read?

"as seen through the massive variety of choices between characters, equipment, and most of all in the skill trees."

Borderlands doesn't have Bioware-esque choices, no, but neither do thousands of other RPGs. There's a high level of character development choice, though, which is blatantly "RPG". Either way, this is a pointless argument with you, since you're a stuffy RPG Codex-tard who can't accept anything besides decade old piles of shit as "true" RPGs. You are aware that the 21st century happened awhile ago, right?

 
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Idiotekque said:
Can you read?

"as seen through the massive variety of choices between characters, equipment, and most of all in the skill trees."

Borderlands doesn't have Bioware-esque choices, no, but neither do thousands of other RPGs. There's a high level of character development choice, though, which is blatantly "RPG". Either way, this is a pointless argument with you, since you're a stuffy RPG Codex-tard who can't accept anything besides decade old piles of shit as "true" RPGs. You are aware that the 21st century happened awhile ago, right?
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which dlc to buy = rpg

 
Idiotekque said:
There are a hell of a lot of basic turn based RPGs that are utterly linear, most famously the Final Fantasy series.
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Final Fantasy = JRPG. As in "Joke RPG" ;)

Part of the problem with this "debate" is you make assumptions about what I would personally call an RPG and try to apply it broadly looking for exceptions. Granted, I've only ever played FF8 but it did indeed fail at the "choice" test. But then most people sort of lump JRPGs into a class by themselves anyway.

 
The choice test is just some shit that Bioware made popular that isn't really an RPG but now all the Bioware fans think it is.

And I'm not talking about in a MysterD 'well a choice could be deciding what skills to pick' sense. :roll:

 
Syntax Error said:
Final Fantasy = JRPG. As in "Joke RPG" ;)

Part of the problem with this "debate" is you make assumptions about what I would personally call an RPG and try to apply it broadly looking for exceptions. Granted, I've only ever played FF8 but it did indeed fail at the "choice" test. But then most people sort of lump JRPGs into a class by themselves anyway.
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The problem is that you're considering any game that slightly ventures from D&D mechanics as not being an "RPG". Sure, Final Fantasy is a JRPG, but it's your standard turn based story driven RPG, which is... wait for it... the same layout as a game like a D&D CRPG: A turn based, story driven RPG (just without waifus and spiky multicolored hair). You're given choices here and there in some of those, but nothing all that dramatic, and I still believe those choices hardly effect the course of the game to the same degree that the wealth of character construction choices that you're given in Borderlands do.

There's not much of a problem besides a handful of you suddenly going all RPG Codex mode and only considering the very first RPGs to be TRUE RPGs, which is pretty hardheaded and laughable. Like I said, genres adopt different elements and don't suddenly become a whole new genre if they keep the core of the genre intact. If that wasn't true, we'd have twenty-million different genres bred through nonsensical purist bullshit.

 
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Idiotekque said:
The problem is that you're considering any game that slightly ventures from D&D mechanics as not being an "RPG".
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Nah. I'd consider FO3 an RPG for instance. No one is saying "There's been no RPGs since 1985!" or whatever. That's a strawman you're creating on your own. There's plenty of more modern RPGs. There's also plenty more variants on the RPG concept that give up some RPG aspects in favor of other things. I wouldn't call those "RPG"s without some sort of qualifier like ARPG, etc but that's just me.

 
Syntax Error said:
Nah. I'd consider FO3 an RPG for instance. No one is saying "There's been no RPGs since 1985!" or whatever. That's a strawman you're creating on your own. There's plenty of more modern RPGs. There's also plenty more variants on the RPG concept that give up some RPG aspects in favor of other things. I wouldn't call those "RPG"s without some sort of qualifier like ARPG, etc but that's just me.
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Not much of a strawman. The argument all along has been that either A. Borderlands isn't an RPG, or B. ARPGs and things like it aren't RPGs. It hasn't just been A (my comments aren't entirely towards you, there are more than one of you making the argument). And either way, I never said anyone said there haven't been any RPGs since 85, the fact is that the other side of this debate is basically saying that a different combat system invalidates a game of being an RPG.

But then you consider FO3 an RPG, while it is identical to Borderlands besides the VATS system and higher level of story/actions choice. Yet it lacks the deep character building options of Borderlands, so it's actually less an RPG in that regard, so your reasoning makes very little sense to me. Perhaps you're just trolling me.
But yeah, it's really just semantics, of which I'm not exactly the one arguing. Somehow in your eyes and others, if an RPG has an action combat system, and is classified as an ARPG, it's not an RPG, which seems pointlessly nitpicky to me, but whatever tweaks your twinkie.

 
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Idiotekque said:
And when you say "Diablo/Torchlight/Titan Quest where the answer is "more swords/spells" and the only real RPG elements are mechanical: levels, skill points, classes, etc.", I could just as easily say that the entirety of those game is fully RPG, and the only non-RPG element is the lack of choice.
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You could say that, but you'd be wrong. Unless you ignore that the vast majority of Diablo/Torchlight games is the action. :twoguns:

You're killing me!

 
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I think the A in ARPG is useless. Action combat is by and large the default for anything remotely recent resembling an RPG. Even most of the crap coming out of Europe these days (we're so modern we're retro Larian excluded) is action based combat. I just think it's silly that some games get called ARPGs but then Skyrim and The Witcher 2 don't even though you're button mashing or doing combos in those games.

It's splitting hairs I know, but I'd say for the stuff that's probably not full on 'RPG' or has more of a focus on the action better to call it a hybrid RPG or a game with RPG Elements. 
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Idiotekque said:
if an RPG has an action combat system, and is classified as an ARPG, it's not an RPG, which seems pointlessly nitpicky to me, but whatever tweaks your twinkie.
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Awesome. I was afraid you were overly invested in Borderlands being called an RPG but, now that we know that's not the case, we can all sleep easier tonight. :D/

 
hal said:
You could say that, but you'd be wrong. Unless you ignore that the vast majority of Diablo/Torchlight games is the action. :twoguns:

You're killing me!
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Funny to pick one sentence out of many to pick apart, but okay.

That's the difference of opinion. No clue why you see action as non-RPG. I feel completely the opposite. These are typically games about swords and magic and goblins and demons, and blood. Lots of blood. Oh no, if there's any action, that ain't no RPG.

"You're killing me! "

Syntax Error said:
Awesome. I was afraid you were overly invested in Borderlands being called an RPG but, now that we know that's not the case, we can all sleep easier tonight. :D/
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Like I said above, action =/= non-RPG. No idea why that's a line of reasoning going on here. Motoki hit the nail on the head, and it goes back to my point of action packed combat system just plain not being an option when RPGs were born (which it wasn't, it didn't come out until 82, and it still sucked then).

But yeah, I was never arguing that Borderlands is an RPG and not an ARPG. I clearly said Borderlands is Diablo with guns, and Diablo is obviously an ARPG. But yeah, ARPG = RPG. Hell, ARPG usually is only applied to top down/isometric clicky action RPGs, while other games like Two Worlds get the "CRPG" tag and fall right into the same genreboat as Baldur's Gate, yet are RPGs with action combat systems. Figure that one out!

motoki said:
This thread is so internet special olympics right now.
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AND I R WINNER

 
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Oh goody....debating what is an RPG....next up: how long is a piece of string?

Will this stop me from chiming in?  No-siree-bob.

In my absolutely correct opinion:

Role-Playing Game (RPG) : Has a human (sub-human is acceptable) referee

Computer Role-Playing Game (CRPG):  Ummm....doesn't.  Ha! take that!  

I think RPG has become "genericized"? in the same way every "confederate-flag-flyin, hound-dog-on-their-porch-sittin" person in the Deep South refers to all soda as "Coke" or every facial tissue is a "Kleenex" or a copy is a "Xerox" (yeah, not really used so much any more but whatever) to describe anything that remotely resembles the first/most-popular incarnation of said thing.

And you can take that to the bank!

TLDR: Herpity Derp herp derp. Herp-Derping Herp. Derp Herp. Herp Diddy Derp.

 
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motoki said:
I just think it's silly that some games get called ARPGs but then Skyrim and The Witcher 2 don't even though you're button mashing or doing combos in those games.
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Haven't played Witcher but, for stuff like Skyrim, I'd say the difference is that in an ARPG like Borderlands or Torchlight the action IS the game.

To go in the other direction, Assassins Creed 4 was full of button mashing, equipment upgrades and even a shallow crafting system but no one* was calling it an RPG. FC3 has button mashing, crafting, and skill trees but I never saw anyone playing it refer to it as an RPG. Well, I suppose that one idiotic review calling it "Skyrim with guns" implied it.

(*Well, no one I saw. I'm sure someone out there has a blog calling it an RPG though)

 
Syntax Error said:
Haven't played Witcher but, for stuff like Skyrim, I'd say the difference is that in an ARPG like Borderlands or Torchlight the action IS the game.

To go in the other direction, Assassins Creed 4 was full of button mashing, equipment upgrades and even a shallow crafting system but no one* was calling it an RPG. FC3 has button mashing, crafting, and skill trees but I never saw anyone playing it refer to it as an RPG. Well, I suppose that one idiotic review calling it "Skyrim with guns" implied it.

(*Well, no one I saw. I'm sure someone out there has a blog calling it an RPG though)
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But see, those are shallow RPG-esque systems tacked on. Every game and it's mother has RPG elements in it nowadays, that doesn't invalidate the game from its main genre. Borderlands, on the other hand, is steeped in RPG mechanics in all regards, besides having a FPS combat system, which is uncommon in RPGs.

It's all about what's at the core of a game. Assassin's Creed and Far Cry are clearly not RPGs at the core, they simply have light RPG elements spattered in.

 
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ARPG only became a thing in the first place because back in the olden days the default combat for RPGs was turn based. It's not anymore so I'd still argue that label is antiquated. FWIW in the 90s Elder Scrolls were commonly labeled ARPGs because of the real time slashing combat.

Anyhow most games are hybridized to some degree or other these days. There's action in RPGs and RPGs in action games and Visual Novel choose your own adventure stuff (aka 'The [Bioware] Choice Test') in RPGs and Winter Wolves Visual novels with RPG elements etc etc.

 
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motoki said:
ARPG only became a thing in the first place because back in the olden days the default combat for RPGs was turn based. It's not anymore so I'd still argue that label is antiquated. FWIW in the 90s Elder Scrolls were commonly labeled ARPGs because of the real time slashing combat.

Anyhow most games are hybridized to some degree or other these days. There's action in RPGs and RPGs in action games and Visual Novel choose your own adventure stuff (aka 'The [Bioware] Choice Test') in RPGs and Winter Wolves Visual novels with RPG elements etc etc.
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Idiotekque said:
Funny to pick one sentence out of many to pick apart, but okay.

That's the difference of opinion. No clue why you see action as non-RPG. I feel completely the opposite. These are typically games about swords and magic and goblins and demons, and blood. Lots of blood. Oh no, if there's any action, that ain't no RPG.
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I picked it because it was the most wrong and because I wanted to comment on that one sentence and not the others.

You said DIablo was entirely RPG. I took exception. Diablo/Torchlight are action games with a shit ton of loot.

Of course everyone will settle on the definition that makes them the happiest, so... whatever. May I just suggest that you look more closely at the core of the game as a deciding factor in assigning a genre? Every game is adopting stuff that's traditionally associated with RPGs, as gamers are demanding deeper experiences. There has to be a defining factor or you're going to be calling every game an RPG.

 
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To me, when a game doesn't easily fall into one genre or another (which is almost everything these days) I categorize it based on whatever elements are most prominent. For Borderlands I consider that the shooting, so I'd say it's a FPS with RPG elements, whereas Fallout 3 is more heavily centered around its RPG mechanics (though I'm not at all clear what people consider those anymore after reading these posts) so I would say that's an RPG that happens to play like an FPS.

Really though this whole argument is silly, since no one is going to convince the other to change their mind, and at this point everyone is just running in circles.

 
MrNinjaSquirrel said:
To me, when a game doesn't easily fall into one genre or another (which is almost everything these days) I categorize it based on whatever elements are most prominent. For Borderlands I consider that the shooting, so I'd say it's a FPS with RPG elements, whereas Fallout 3 is more heavily centered around its RPG mechanics (though I'm not at all clear what people consider those anymore after reading these posts) so I would say that's an RPG that happens to play like an FPS.

Really though this whole argument is silly, since no one is going to convince the other to change their mind, and at this point everyone is just running in circles.
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You know who also ran around in circles? These guys.

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Ref, in case you're not familiar with the '68 Olympics.

 
hal said:
I picked it because it was the most wrong and because I wanted to comment on that one sentence and not the others.

You said DIablo was entirely RPG. I took exception. Diablo/Torchlight are action games with a shit ton of loot.

Of course everyone will settle on the definition that makes them the happiest, so... whatever. May I just suggest that you look more closely at the core of the game as a deciding factor in assigning a genre? Every game is adopting stuff that's traditionally associated with RPGs, as gamers are demanding deeper experiences. There has to be a defining factor or you're going to be calling every game an RPG.
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Have you been like... reading anything I've said? No problem if you haven't, I've been on a typing spree, but you may want to read before calling someone "wrong". Unless of course you meant it was the "most wrong" out of all the "right" things! :bouncy:

But anyways, as for your "suggestion", that's what I do. A combat style does not a game make. I've said time and again how the core of the game is the key to deciding the genre, while the extra jangly bits (like a "skill tree" in Far Cry) are just additional elements.

If you think combat style = genre, then that's your prerogative, but I think that's a pretty shallow judgment of the genre of a game.

 
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motoki said:
I just think it's silly that some games get called ARPGs but then Skyrim and The Witcher 2 don't even though you're button mashing or doing combos in those games.
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They are ARPGs. They only people who don't think so are like 20 something hipsters.

 
Because so many times that person who is being told by someone else they are a completely idiot and their entire viewpoint is wrong suddenly has an epiphany and realizes guy on the internet calling them an idiot full of shit is completely right and they totally change their mind. Yep, happens all the time.

 
I travel the internet, turning Christians into atheists, Republicans into Democrats and console devotees into PC gamers with naught but the power of a well crafted, insightful phrase.

 
Idiotekque said:
But anyways, as for your "suggestion", that's what I do. A combat style does not a game make. I've said time and again how the core of the game is the key to deciding the genre, while the extra jangly bits (like a "skill tree" in Far Cry) are just additional elements.

If you think combat style = genre, then that's your prerogative, but I think that's a pretty shallow judgment of the genre of a game.
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Combat style? I dunno... not really. I'm just thinking about what you do most of the game.

Diablo - click and run

Borderlands - shoot and run

Having said that, I should have known better than to jump into the tired old RPG debate and it's gone on for pages. Steam has this great feature that lets me categorize games my own way, so I'll just be happy with that.

 
I updated my Humble App this morning and they made big changes. They updated the look and it will now download music and ebooks to your device. You can specify the download directories for each type of content. This should make downloading comics for tablet consumption much easier.

 
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louiedog said:
I updated my Humble App this morning and they made big changes. They updated the look and it will now download music and ebooks to your device. You can specify the download directories for each type of content. This should make downloading comics for tablet consumption much easier.
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Oh I need to download it, as the last time I used it, it worked but was clunky.

 
motoki said:
Because so many times that person who is being told by someone else they are a completely idiot and their entire viewpoint is wrong suddenly has an epiphany and realizes guy on the internet calling them an idiot full of shit is completely right and they totally change their mind. Yep, happens all the time.
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I never thought of it that way.

You're completely right. This discussion isn't at all a waste of time and Idiotekque really should keep going.

 
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