75% angry at government policies

elprincipe

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http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...75_are_angry_at_government_s_current_policies

Eighty-nine percent (89%) of Republicans are angry with the government’s current policies, which is perhaps not surprising with the White House and Congress both in Democratic hands. But 78% of voters not affiliated with either major party agree.

Sixty-one percent (61%) of Democrats share that anger, but Republicans are three times as likely as Democrats to be Very Angry.

The divide between the Political Class and Mainstream voters, however, is remarkable. Eighty-eight percent (88%) of Mainstream voters are angry, but 84% of the Political Class are not. Those numbers include 57% of Mainstream voters who are Very Angry and 51% of the Political Class who are not angry at all.

But then 68% of Mainstream voters don’t think the leaders of either major political party have a good understanding of what the country needs today. Sixty-one percent (61%) of the Political Class disagree.

Congress/politicians: "La la la la la, I can't hear you!"
 
awesome, i literally saw this on the o'reilly factor like 5 minutes ago.

yeah i'm part of that % that is angry at washington, the democrats are SPINELESS.
 
[quote name='IRHari']awesome, i literally saw this on the o'reilly factor like 5 minutes ago.

yeah i'm part of that % that is angry at washington, the democrats are SPINELESS.[/QUOTE]

Really? I just got linked through a website a minute ago. Weird. You really watch O'Reilly?
 
Yeah it's important to know what talking points are going to come out with so I watch FNC almost exclusively.
 
A vague question with a bunch of possible implied permutations that end up lumping a whole laundry list of conflicting and disagreeing perspectives into one group of "anger."

When can we see the poll that sez what % of people know a fuckin' thing Congress is up to - i.e., what's the bivariate correlation b/w anger with the actual policies proposed and knowledge of what those policies are?

Msut linked to a fine op-ed from the Atlantic in the "condescending liberal" thread that stated the following:

Only a hard core of "birther" zealots still believes that President Obama is not an American citizen, but many more are perfectly happy to believe that Medicare is not a government program. Not one in a hundred could tell you in even general terms what Obama's health care reform plan consists of, but that doesn't stop them from having strong opinions about it, which they offer to pollsters, who are the enablers of this particular bad habit.

And I doubt any of you could proffer something that demonstrates even you have the knowledge the vast, angry, virulent majority certainly do not. Please feel free to prove me wrong.
 
Anger. Whoop te do!

How will people express their anger?
Yell at somebody thousands of miles away?
Smash something?
Pump their clenched fists in the air?
Vote the same representative in or vote for the other guy in the same pocket?

Yeah, anger is a good start, but it isn't the way to improve things.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Really? I just got linked through a website a minute ago. Weird. You really watch O'Reilly?[/QUOTE]

My mom is liberal and I know she at the very least used to watch O'Reilly for entertainment. I am not sure if she still does because I no longer live with her.
 
The thing is though, what makes one side happy generally makes the other side angry. Repealing don't ask don't tell would make most liberals happy and conservatives angry. You can't please everyone.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']The thing is though, what makes one side happy generally makes the other side angry. Repealing don't ask don't tell would make most liberals happy and conservatives angry. You can't please everyone.[/QUOTE]

Obviously. But the vast majority of independents and also even 2/3 of Democrats say they are angry with government policies. This is pretty solid evidence that the cause is more than just "I'm a Republican and I hate what the Dumbocrats are doing."
 
I agree that many of the people answering these polls are prbably ignorant of most if not all of the issues they claim to be angry about, however it's largely irrelevent whether or not they are informed or cometely ignorant, they still have a right to their ill-informed opinion and still get to vote.
 
Oh i agree, but it still works the way i said before. Dems may be angry that gitmo isn't closed, i don't think the Cans even want it closed, so doing so would make one happier and the other angrier.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Obviously. But the vast majority of independents and also even 2/3 of Democrats say they are angry with government policies. This is pretty solid evidence that the cause is more than just "I'm a Republican and I hate what the Dumbocrats are doing."[/QUOTE]
I'm angry at don't ask don't tell taking so damn long. I'm angry about Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm angry about Guantanamo. I'm angry about the DoD budget.

I'm the poster child for an Obama supporter but I'd probably agree with the statement.

I also think we're moving in the right direction on a raft of issues that far outweigh my complaints.

Just sayin.
 
People literally don't know shit about anything Obama is doing or wants to do. All they hear is the bullshit from the Republicans.
 
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/208/1/5/Hulk_SMASH_by_el_grimlock.jpg
Hulk_SMASH_by_el_grimlock.jpg


^Voters.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']A vague question with a bunch of possible implied permutations that end up lumping a whole laundry list of conflicting and disagreeing perspectives into one group of "anger."

When can we see the poll that sez what % of people know a fuckin' thing Congress is up to - i.e., what's the bivariate correlation b/w anger with the actual policies proposed and knowledge of what those policies are?

Msut linked to a fine op-ed from the Atlantic in the "condescending liberal" thread that stated the following:



And I doubt any of you could proffer something that demonstrates even you have the knowledge the vast, angry, virulent majority certainly do not. Please feel free to prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]



You got to be consistant in spite of your liberal bias if your going to make a whole thread about generalizing all Republicans as stupid based on one person's data and not give a credible pollster like Rasmusson a nod for their results, regardless of whether you believe the results.

How can you honestly not deny that there is a lot of anger from voters who believed the promises Obama made before he got elected? Obama has accomplished nothing and spent a lot of taxpayer dollars without a lot results. I wonder where record unemployment and Iran take second fiddle to a health care plan he can't explain how to pay for without breaking his promises of raising taxes. Obama and Congress are as dirty as politians get, where you're in denial or not, he hasn't kept his administration transparent and he has surrounded himself with so many shady characters it's no wonder he is already talking about being a one term president. We've seen 3 major elections lost by Democrats including in one very liberal state. Please tell me what Obama and Congress have done which should garner more approval from the American people. And try not to throw Bush or the republicans into your excuse, you have full majorites in every branch of government.
 
Anger = trying to propose health care reform at all

Anger = kowtowing to Republicans (and Ben Nelson and Joe Liebermann) in neutering health care reform, taking the public option out, taking single payer out, and still not getting the job done.

Anger = government involvement in health care/cutting medicaire (;))

Anger = government allowing insurance industries to guide edits to the proposal.

"angry with government's policies" is vague and doesn't say much specific. You're angry with government policies; so am I - given your interpretation of these data, that means you and I share the same views on what government should do to resolve that anger.

Oh...wait. That's not right.

Do you get it? Do you get it?

Do. You. Get. It?
 
[quote name='speedracer']I'm angry at don't ask don't tell taking so damn long. I'm angry about Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm angry about Guantanamo. I'm angry about the DoD budget.

I'm the poster child for an Obama supporter but I'd probably agree with the statement.

I also think we're moving in the right direction on a raft of issues that far outweigh my complaints.

Just sayin.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, although there are some other results in the survey, such as 83% saying the deficit/debt problem is politicians' fault, that offer some clues as to why people are upset about what the government is doing.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']How can you honestly not deny that there is a lot of anger from voters who believed the promises Obama made before he got elected? Obama has accomplished nothing and spent a lot of taxpayer dollars without a lot results. I wonder where record unemployment and Iran take second fiddle to a health care plan he can't explain how to pay for without breaking his promises of raising taxes. Obama and Congress are as dirty as politians get, where you're in denial or not, he hasn't kept his administration transparent and he has surrounded himself with so many shady characters it's no wonder he is already talking about being a one term president.[/QUOTE]

1. Unemployment is not at record levels. Not even close.

2. Obama is nowhere near as dirty as politicians get. You haven't been around politics long if you think that. Sure, there are plenty of corrupt people in Congress, but I don't know that I'd even say there are more now than there were a few years ago. The main thing on that score is a lot of corrupt Republicans either were sent to jail or defeated (Cunningham, Ney, Stevens, DeLay, etc.; although we still have a few who are around - Buyer (retiring), Tiahrt, etc.) while many of the corrupt Democrats are still in office (we no longer have Murtha or Jefferson, but we still have Mollohan, Moran, Visclosky, Rangel, Pelosi, Menendez, etc.).

3. There were quite a few shady characters in the Bush administration too, not that that excuses the Obama administration's shady characters and violations of Obama's own ethics pledges.
 
Re: Obamacare and not knowing what it is but being angry about it and thinking it sucks:

[quote name='mykevermin']And I doubt any of you could proffer something that demonstrates even you have the knowledge the vast, angry, virulent majority certainly do not. Please feel free to prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]

Easily, in fact I can demonstrate that the "angry majority" is quite knowledgable. Not one in 100 can tell you what Obamacare is, but knows it sucks, because there has been so many different things proposed and so much done in secrecy that all we know is that it is going to be massive (see house bill), cost a shitload of money (see either house/senate bills), may or may not serve our best interests on it, had numerous payoffs involved (i.e. Louisiana, Nebraska, labor union deals), was partially done behind closed doors in secrecy (Obama? example: house attempting to sneak a public option - or some form of big gov't involvement - back into senate proposition when merging house/senate bills behind closed doors), arguably was directed by and primarily involved only the extreme wing of one of the two political parties (which is why its going nowhere now - moderates don't want any part of it now that they know they'll be held accountable for their votes), and as a result the actual people who will be paying for it and living with it (i.e. the people) got little to zero input on it. And on top of it all, it comes at a time when people want the government to spend less, be less involved, and focus on the economy if anything, not costly utopian healthcare fairytales. That is more than enough to make ANYONE angry that a bloated, expensive mass of convoluted big-government ideas was going to be enacted into law - and based on the government's past performance and current shady dealings is further more than enough to believe that it would have been a stinking pile of shit.

Thankfully, it appears that the effort is on life support now.
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']You've got to be kidding me.[/QUOTE]

Is that your example of a "knowledgable" response? :)
 
Just humor me with this question: you *truly* think that you've adequately summarized the proposals, allocations, long-term outlooks, projected cost accountability, and specifics of either one or both health care bills with your post above? Yes? No?

It's no wonder some folks can't fathom why massive federal legislation that has to account for 300 million people can approach nearly 2000 pages in length - as it would appear you'd be much more happy with a bill that says "fix stuff, don't screw up" and find that adequately detailed.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Just humor me with this question: you *truly* think that you've adequately summarized the proposals, allocations, long-term outlooks, projected cost accountability, and specifics of either one or both health care bills with your post above? Yes? No?

It's no wonder some folks can't fathom why massive federal legislation that has to account for 300 million people can approach nearly 2000 pages in length - as it would appear you'd be much more happy with a bill that says "fix stuff, don't screw up" and find that adequately detailed.[/QUOTE]

See, there's the problem.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Just humor me with this question: you *truly* think that you've adequately summarized the proposals, allocations, long-term outlooks, projected cost accountability, and specifics of either one or both health care bills with your post above? Yes? No?[/quote]

Pretty much, yeah, as much as you can summarize a 2000 page bill in a post. See, I don't see the proposed options as having "cost accountability."

If that was really a priority... why no tort reform? Why no private managing of medicaid care? Why are bankrupt programs like Medicaid being expanded in some areas? Its like pumping more blood into someone with a severed arm before the wound is patched - stop the bleeding first!

It's no wonder some folks can't fathom why massive federal legislation that has to account for 300 million people can approach nearly 2000 pages in length - as it would appear you'd be much more happy with a bill that says "fix stuff, don't screw up" and find that adequately detailed.

The bill introduced by the house is trying to fix things that are not broken, and what i've heard from the senate bill they are robbing peter to pay paul.

There are some basic points of healthcare that do need to be addressed:
1. Outright denial of people with pre-existing conditions.
2. People who can afford healthcare, but choose not to buy insurance until there is a life-threatening emergency and spend their money on other things instead.
3. People who cannot afford healthcare and abuse Medicaid (i.e. multiple trips to the ER in a given week feigning symptoms because their doc won't prescribe them the particular med they want - I've seen it firsthand) resulting in higher healthcare costs.
4. Frivolous lawsuit judgments resulting in doctors practicing defensive medicine so they don't get sued, resulting in higher healthcare costs.
5. Regulations requiring insurance companies to cover huge bundles of various services that people may not want insurance resulting in large premiums when buying insurance outright such as periods between jobs; there needs to be more options and the ability to opt-out of certain services like auto insurance. The forced bundling of every service under the sun again results in higher healthcare costs.

Now those are some complex problems, but the 2000+ page house bill only addresses 1 & 2 while simultaneously creating potential new problems (i.e. potential lower quality of care w/ public option). The Senate bill also manages to address only 1&2 without some of the potential problems from the house bill, but creates problems too by cutting medicare payments again resulting in potential lower quality of care for medicare patients.

Could a bill be created that addresses 1-5 in under 2000 pages? I don't see why not. Just cut out the pork/payouts, wordiness to disguise big gov't, unnecessary fixing of problems that don't exist, and replace it with innovations that benefit the people without growing government. The main problem is that the current crew in charge seems to care more about serving themselves (government) than the people, and is too fearful of ticking off their constiutents to make a bill that truly serves the people.
 
Ruin, there were 30 some odd previous healthcare threads.

You were worthless in those threads and you are worthless in this one.

Tort reform is a red herring, but that isn't really a point when all you offer is a pile of red herrings.
 
It seems to me that many of the people who are the most against reform are the ones who need it the most. I remember back when health care reform first got started, there was a meeting with my congress critter at the very school i attend, i couldn't get in to see it, but being outside was just as enlightening. Two women outside had more signs than they could hold and kept verbally assaulting everyone who identified as being for reform. The reason i say this was enlightening is because these women both admitted to not having any sort of insurance , and judging from their teeth alone, they needed it. As i said, it seems that the people who are the most vocal in protesting against reform are the ones who need it the most, which makes no sense to me.
 
[quote name='Ruined']Pretty much, yeah, as much as you can summarize a 2000 page bill in a post. See, I don't see the proposed options as having "cost accountability."[/quote]

That's because you haven't read it. You refusing to see that it adds $0 to the deficit is you admitting that you are willing to pick and choose which portions of the bill you don't believe - and, of course, that assumes you know what's in them, which I sincerely doubt.

If that was really a priority... why no tort reform? Why no private managing of medicaid care? Why are bankrupt programs like Medicaid being expanded in some areas?

When the problem is private insurance and escalating costs of private care, the proper solution is not more privatization. That's philosophically straightforward. Tort reform is a distraction offered by people who don't want to acknowledge that they'd rather do nothing. It adds so little to the cost savings that its omission begs the question: can't Republicans vote on this bill now and amend it with tort reform later? This is not the last bill on health care ever, you know; it's not our last shot. So the refusal to pass any bill without it is just a sign that Republicans are playing Lucy holding Charlie Brown's football.

The Senate version of the bill features no fewer than half a dozen major initiatives Republicans demanded before they offer their vote, including interstate insurance markets and the assassination of both the public option and single-payer. They continue to move the goal markers after getting their way time and time again. You don't seem to acknowledge that in your post - in fact, you contradict it by acting like Republican proposals have been shut out of this bill, which is a centrist, Massachusetts Romney-style program. But I'll pretend you're just playing dumb, and trying to trick me here into thinking the entire thing is liberal/communist/red chinese socialist from the ground up.

The bill introduced by the house is trying to fix things that are not broken

jaw.on.floor.

and what i've heard from the senate bill they are robbing peter to pay paul.

Well, at least you admit you don't get any information first hand.

There are some basic points of healthcare that do need to be addressed:
1. Outright denial of people with pre-existing conditions.
2. People who can afford healthcare, but choose not to buy insurance until there is a life-threatening emergency and spend their money on other things instead.
3. People who cannot afford healthcare and abuse Medicaid (i.e. multiple trips to the ER in a given week feigning symptoms because their doc won't prescribe them the particular med they want - I've seen it firsthand) resulting in higher healthcare costs.
4. Frivolous lawsuit judgments resulting in doctors practicing defensive medicine so they don't get sued, resulting in higher healthcare costs.
5. Regulations requiring insurance companies to cover huge bundles of various services that people may not want insurance resulting in large premiums when buying insurance outright such as periods between jobs; there needs to be more options and the ability to opt-out of certain services like auto insurance. The forced bundling of every service under the sun again results in higher healthcare costs.

2 and 3 overlap substantially and are thus moot as separate points.

4 is trivial as can be, and you don't want to admit it.

5 shows me you don't seem to understand what insurance is.

Now those are some complex problems, but the 2000+ page house bill only addresses 1 & 2 while simultaneously creating potential new problems (i.e. potential lower quality of care w/ public option). The Senate bill also manages to address only 1&2 without some of the potential problems from the house bill, but creates problems too by cutting medicare payments again resulting in potential lower quality of care for medicare patients.

Could a bill be created that addresses 1-5 in under 2000 pages? I don't see why not. Just cut out the pork/payouts, wordiness to disguise big gov't, unnecessary fixing of problems that don't exist, and replace it with innovations that benefit the people without growing government. The main problem is that the current crew in charge seems to care more about serving themselves (government) than the people, and is too fearful of ticking off their constiutents to make a bill that truly serves the people.

If you don't read it or have a clue what is in it, what's the relevance of a 2 page bill and a 2000 page bill? You're woefully uninformed yet strongly opinionated, you admit you don't get your information firsthand, you gloss over details in favor of sweeping statements, like the size of the legislation text or the presumed long-term cost of the legislation (of course, adding layers of vagueness by failing to cite any source that justifies why you think it's going to overrun in cost or 'rob peter to pay paul'). You make assertions so vague they are criticisms you levy at virtually any legislation and pretend like someone in the know. Oh, no, I'm being condescending again, aren't I? Awwwww, porbrecito. Imagine how Gordon Ramsay felt if someone asked him to make chicken fingers. That's how I feel trying to discuss political issues with you.
 
Of course not. But I implore to you search my posts and see where I say something so demonstrably untrue about the bill's contents like so many critics of the bill have. If you can do that, you'll get a cookie from me.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's because you haven't read it. You refusing to see that it adds $0 to the deficit is you admitting that you are willing to pick and choose which portions of the bill you don't believe - and, of course, that assumes you know what's in them, which I sincerely doubt.[/QUOTE]

Please don't tell me you actually believe this. You're much, much smarter than that. The claim that either the House or Senate bill will end up either cutting the deficit or being deficit-neutral is sheer fantasy, and demonstrably so. Argue if you like that the reforms are worthwhile, but this insults our intelligence.

As for tort reform, yes, it's not the biggest part of any solution. It's worth pursuing, and would have a positive effect to the tune of tens of billions of dollars. But that is only a fraction of what is needed. Unfortunately, even though sensible tort reform is a positive step that would (1) help to accomplish the goals of reform; and (2) add in a bipartisan element to the bills, Democrats and their trial lawyer sugar daddies won't even consider it. Just ask Howard Dean why.
 
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