An Open Letter to the American People (signed by 61 Nobel Laureates )

You're too stubborn to admit how wicked right I am. At this point, that's the only explanation I can think of for your posts.
 
[quote name='Koggit']You're too stubborn to admit how wicked right I am. At this point, that's the only explanation I can think of for your posts.[/QUOTE]

If that didn't clear it up, you simply have no concept of how social science works and this is a lost cause.

Biases exist as the social world is complex, we use research design and statstical methods to control for it as best we can. And I outline above how that works very clearly for the hypothetical study. Randomized experiments are the gold standard, but their impractical for many/most social science/criminology research questions, so we turn to such methods to address the causality issue as best we can.

Again, you can poo poo it and say you don't buy into such methods and research design, but such studies are considered quite rigorous in the social sciences, and especially in criminology.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
And I'm going to take another break from the Vs. forum as I've been getting to fed up with posts here in general lately and it's just not worth it.[/QUOTE]

Well you should know better, there aren't that many graduate degrees in here. So you have few equals ;)
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well you should know better, there aren't that many graduate degrees in here. So you have few equals ;)[/QUOTE]

i lold
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
1. I'm not wrong. You're just an undergrad engineering student who thinks you know everything about every field. The study I described is a perfectly valid example of a panel design survey research that is very often done in the social sciences. If you don't buy it, fine. But it's a fairly rigorous study as far as non-randomized survey research designs go.

As I said earlier, ther'e's plenty of people who don't buy into most social science research since we can seldom get at clear causality the way the hard sciences can. That view point is fine, but you need to quit trying to talk about things you know nothing about. And especially quit belittling people who actually work in those fields and know what they're talking about when it comes to saying what is or isn't reasonable quality work in their field.

I'm not going to talk down to you about engineering as I know nothing about it. Grow up and quit trying to be a pompous know it all behind a computer screen posting anonymously on internet forums. Let's see you talk that way to my face in person, tough guy.


2. Again, I didn't put you on ignore for disliking Dave Matthews. I could care less what music you like and would prefer not to have anything in common with you.

I put you on ignore as, like the complete asshole you are, you posted rude remarks bashing people for liking Dave Matthews band in a thread where people were posting condolences ABOUT THE DEATH OF ONE OF THE BAND MEMBERS. That was one of the most classless posts I've seen on these forums, and par for the course from you unfortunately...

No. Your a pompous moron who just thinks he knows everything when I've yet to see you make a single valid point in any thread on any topic on CAG. All you do is spout off ignorant bullshit and insult people. When it boils down to it you're likely just a troll who does nothing but post inflammatory shit to get people riled up (and I'm embarrassed to have fallen for it)...

You must be a truly pathetic in real life to have to pretend to be such a wanna-be genious tough guy on the internet.[/QUOTE]

You give new vigor to the term "elitist." Between that and your exclusive masters' degree club pomposity, I for one am joining the "good riddance" club.

It's just shameful that a supposed higher-educated person could be so short tempered and intolerant to veiwpoints other than his own. You epitomize neo-intellectualism. Luckily, you have your circle of similarly educated comrades to prop up your ego.

And I wouldn't hesitate to say that to your face, tough guy.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']You give new vigor to the term "elitist." Between that and your exclusive masters' degree club pomposity, I for one am joining the "good riddance" club.

It's just shameful that a supposed higher-educated person could be so short tempered and intolerant to veiwpoints other than his own. You epitomize neo-intellectualism. Luckily, you have your circle of similarly educated comrades to prop up your ego.

And I wouldn't hesitate to say that to your face, tough guy.[/quote]

Really? From that quote? During that drawn-out exchange with Koggit?
 
[quote name='SpazX']Really? From that quote? During that drawn-out exchange with Koggit?[/quote]

Well, you can read some of his responses to my posts.

A person with a liberal arts degree struggling to make ends meets being greater than a person with a trade skill supporting a family and saving for retirement isn't a view I share with dmaul.
 
I think the game Civilization was on to something with their concept of the "great person"

Sometimes great people do monumentally advance our scientific understanding and technology. I find it a bit absurd (and somewhat communist) to pretend that society does not value these people higher then the average ditch digger.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']It's just shameful that a supposed higher-educated person could be so short tempered and intolerant to veiwpoints other than his own.[/quote]

Oh, please. He has a far longer temper than I do. You know that.

You epitomize neo-intellectualism.
Click to expand...

Define "neo-intellectualism" such that separates it, clearly, from "intellectualism." Or admit that you're fluffing your words for the hell of it.

And I wouldn't hesitate to say that to your face, tough guy.
Click to expand...

Lookit Macho Man Randy Savage over here! Better not end up needing to go a hospital after that fistfight. I hear they're all trained in medicine and hard sciences over there. No philosophy whatsoever.

"What the fuck is a Sartre? You need an enema, stat!"
 
[quote name='camoor']
Sometimes great people do monumentally advance our scientific understanding and technology. I find it a bit absurd (and somewhat communist) to pretend that society does not value these people higher then the average ditch digger.[/QUOTE]

Yep. That's all my comment to FoC meant. I don't look down on regular folks who work a trade and raise a family.

I simply personally have more respect for people who better themselves intellectually and don't settle for just earning a paycheck and supporting a family.

I didn't say I don't respect such people at all, I simply have more respect for people who have loftier goals than just making ends meet and raising a family.

One can have those goals and also choose to get educated and work in a career that advances something rather than just providing a service. Of course all these trade services are needed by society so I do respect people who do them. I just simply value more people who have loftier goals. That's all.


As for the other crap above, what can I say. Even us highly educated folks have tempers, especially when making the mistake of getting in debates with people like Koggitt over stuff they know nothing about.
 
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[quote name='bmulligan']And I wouldn't hesitate to say that to your face, tough guy.[/quote]

Which means you probably wouldn't say a damn thing.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep. That's all my comment to FoC meant. I don't look down on regular folks who work a trade and raise a family.

I simply personally have more respect for people who better themselves intellectually and don't settle for just earning a paycheck and supporting a family.
[/quote]

[quote name='GuessWho']But I'd respect someone with a liberal arts degree who struggles to make ends meet more than the construction contractor with a high school diploma (if that) making six figures.[/quote]

Say this around a bunch of construction workers.

I simply personally don't have more respect for people who better themselves intellectually, but can't earn a decent paycheck to support a family.

I gambled with college twice. It didn't pay off. Colleges are to career improvement as casinos are to wealth improvement.
 
Great. Just what America needs; it's citizens that chose to put in long years at university endorsing yet another way to divide and segregate America.


If our so-called "Learned folk" can't progress past the divisive nature of human beings to bring us together, who can? And now we see the folly in the argument that we should be voting for our elites. They are no better at overcoming our basic human problems than anyone else and possibly are worse.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Great. Just what America needs; it's citizens that chose to put in long years at university endorsing yet another way to divide and segregate America.


If our so-called "Learned folk" can't progress past the divisive nature of human beings to bring us together, who can? And now we see the folly in the argument that we should be voting for our elites. They are no better at overcoming our basic human problems than anyone else and possibly are worse.[/quote]

Obviously, only someone without an advanced degree would think that way.

If you simply got an advanced degree in anything, you would start thinking correctly.

It is like gay men. They aren't actually gay. They haven't had sex with the right woman yet.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
I simply personally don't have more respect for people who better themselves intellectually, but can't earn a decent paycheck to support a family.[/quote]

And that's fine. We just disagree there. But I'd agree that the struggling person shouldn't start a family. People shouldn't start families until they are financially independent. Regardless of whether they work a trade or have an intellectual job are an artist or whatever. You shouldn't make children suffer because you can't earn a living--irrespective of what you educational/occupational background is.

I gambled with college twice. It didn't pay off. Colleges are to career improvement as casinos are to wealth improvement.
Click to expand...

Again, you over generalize your negative experience. Degrees in good fields open a lot of doors. Degrees in the wrong fields and the wrong time (like computer science for you) do little to no good and just waste 4 years.

I feel you pain, as I was nearly there. I started my first semester of undergrad in 1998 as a computer science major as that was the thing to do to make money out of college back then.

Luckily, I HATED programming and switched majors in my second semester to Journalism. Did well in that but didn't like working for the local paper much and got interested in Criminology through my minor in sociology, and the rest is history.

So college has been hugely valuable for me, both in growing intellectual and for my financial situation.

But I'll definitely say college isn't for everyone and it's by no means the only way (or the best way for some) to earn a good living and support a family. And I'd appreciate it if you didn't poo poo the whole college system just from your personal experiences. Just because it didn't work out for you doesn't mean it isn't a very valuable part of society--particularly for people with loftier life goals that just supporting a family.

Even if that's one's only goal, people can vastly increase their life time earnings ceiling with
a degree (and especially advanced degree) in fields that pay well and have high demand for employees. You just had the shitty luck (as I nearly did) of picking a field that looked lucrative but had bottomed out and became over saturated by the time you graduated.

[quote name='thrustbucket']Great. Just what America needs; it's citizens that chose to put in long years at university endorsing yet another way to divide and segregate America.


If our so-called "Learned folk" can't progress past the divisive nature of human beings to bring us together, who can? And now we see the folly in the argument that we should be voting for our elites. They are no better at overcoming our basic human problems than anyone else and possibly are worse.[/QUOTE]

That's just silly. I wasn't divisive IMO. I said I respect people who learn trades.

However, I want the people making huge decisions to be very intelligent and very well educated. Be them my surgeons or the president of the United States. I respect plumbers, electricians, and military veterans (not talking McCain, he has the Senate experience). But that doesn't mean I think they're cut out to have the reserve, judgment and intelligence that should be required to hold the most powerful position in the world, especially with rapidly increasing globalization.

The country was founded by people like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin who were some of the most intelligent and most highly educated people in the world at the time. We need to go back to choosing such people as our leaders.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']That's just silly. I wasn't divisive IMO. I said I respect people who learn trades.

However, I want the people making huge decisions to be very intelligent and very well educated. Be them my surgeons or the president of the United States. I respect plumbers, electricians, and military veterans. But that doesn't mean I think they're cut out to have the reserve, judgment and intelligence that should be required to hold the most powerful position in the world, especially with rapidly increasing globalization.

The country was founded by people like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin who were some of the most intelligent and most highly educated people in the world at the time. We need to go back to choosing such people as our leaders.[/QUOTE]

Where you and I differ, is I think it is fallacy to use years spent in institutionalized schools as a gauge of intelligence; memorization ability, perhaps, and a measure of diligence, maybe. Education and schooling are two different things. Intelligence and formal education are mutually exclusive.

It's worth pointing out that of those people you mentioned, the majority of their education was outside of a school system, and self taught. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were lawyers, but in that day, you became a lawyer after studying/working directly under one for a while. Benjamin Franklin didn't have any formal education, and was almost entirely self taught.

Something tells me you would be unable to vote for anyone, today, that claimed to be self educated, like Franklin. In fact, you would probably be very hesitant to get to know someone like that, listen to what they have to say, or befriend them from what you've said.

In other words, you are very likely to be in the "Who cares what they think, they never even finished college" club.
 
I could go for specific degrees as being a plus for the position, rather than degrees in general.

For instance, being a scholar of constitutional law when you want to be the head of the branch that enforces laws.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']So college has been hugely valuable for me, both in growing intellectual and for my financial situation.[/quote]

Don't you rent a room?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Where you and I differ, is I think it is fallacy to use years spent in institutionalized schools as a gauge of intelligence; memorization ability, perhaps, and a measure of diligence, maybe. Education and schooling are two different things. Intelligence and formal education are mutually exclusive.

It's worth pointing out that of those people you mentioned, the majority of their education was outside of a school system, and self taught. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were lawyers, but in that day, you became a lawyer after studying/working directly under one for a while. Benjamin Franklin didn't have any formal education, and was almost entirely self taught.

Something tells me you would be unable to vote for anyone, today, that claimed to be self educated. In fact, you would probably be very hesitant to get to know someone like that, or befriend them, from what you've said.[/QUOTE]

I vote for people based on the issues and my opinion of their intellect. Having advanced degrees from top schools helps, as I believe that is tied to intellect. It doesn't fully explain it as you have to have intellectual ability to get a degree, especially advanced degrees. I think McCain is very intelligent and considered voting for him in 2000 (or would have if he was the nominee). I just don't like his current stance on issues and how he's shifted much further to the right since 2000, nor how old he is this time around.

But you have a miguided view of college education at top universities (and especially of post graduate education) if you think it's all just memorization and diligence. That's a part of it, but the bigger part is learning to think about things critically and scientifically/philosophically. All that knowledge and intellect doesn't mean anything if you don't know how to analyze it and apply it in the real world.

And John Adams had an education from Harvard, which preceded his law firm understudy. Jefferson went to William and Mary and then later founded the University of Virginia. They were both extraordinary strong advocates of education and for the US having the leading University system in the world. Your point stands on Frankin though, though he was also a staunch supporter of education and universities despite having not attended himself.

Formal education isn't required for one to be brilliant as some of that is of course natural ability, but it is something I place great value on and view as the best and most efficient way to better one's self intellectually. Self learning is important, but a formal education gives you the tools to be productive in that aspect of your life as well as well as showing you how to apply your knowledge and intellect. I'll be done with formal education soon, but I'll be a life long learner so obviously I value self learning.

There are exceptions to everything, but the bulk of the world's great intellects who are doing ground breaking, award winning research and so on received, and benefited from, an outstanding education. Yes they have their own natural intelligence which preceded that as one can't succeed in top universities without underlying intellectual gifts and hard work, but I place great value in the role of advanced education in helping people who choose to do intellectual work be their best.
 
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Don't you rent a room?[/QUOTE]

I'm still a graduate student and a frugal person. That said I make over $30K (for 30 hours a week of work, and I often put in less than that on work stuff and more on my dissertation and personal publications etc.), plus having my tuition and fees fully paid for and having good benefits. So I'm pretty well off financially for a student.

When I graduate my first job will pay in the $60-80K range, that's pretty damn good for an entry level position in a field and for a job I love doing that gives me totally flexibility on what type of work I do and tons of flexibility on the hours I work each day. Raises are regular in the field, so going forward my financial situation will be very secure.

So yes, I have no regrets about my decision to pursue a Ph D, both for developing as a person and for my future career/financial stability. Factor in that I don't plan to have the money sinks and annoyances known as children and I'll be quite well off indeed.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm still a graduate student and a frugal person. That said I make over $30K (for 30 hours a week of work, and I often put in less than that on work stuff and more on my dissertation and personal publications etc.), plus having my tuition and fees fully paid for and having good benefits. So I'm pretty well off financially for a student.

When I graduate my first job will pay in the $60-80K range, that's pretty damn good for an entry level position in a field and for a job I love doing that gives me totally flexibility on what type of work I do and tons of flexibility on the hours I work each day. Raises are regular in the field, so going forward my financial situation will be very secure.

So yes, I have no regrets about my decision to pursue a Ph D, both for developing as a person and for my future career/financial stability. Factor in that I don't plan to have the money sinks and annoyances known as children and I'll be quite well off indeed.[/quote]

Wow, $30K with a MS. A CCNA gets you $40K.

This $60-80K job ... is a guaranteed position, an interview for a position or less?

This $60-80K job ... What city will this be in and how much do 2 bedroom apartments cost there?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']

However, I want the people making huge decisions to be very intelligent and very well educated. Be them my surgeons or the president of the United States. I respect plumbers, electricians, and military veterans (not talking McCain, he has the Senate experience). But that doesn't mean I think they're cut out to have the reserve, judgment and intelligence that should be required to hold the most powerful position in the world, especially with rapidly increasing globalization.[/quote]
I guess this is my primary complaint - what you said here. Not only does it not sit well with me, it seems to somewhat contradict what you said here:

[quote name='dmaul1114']I vote for people based on the issues and my opinion of their intellect. Having advanced degrees from top schools helps, as I believe that is tied to intellect. It doesn't fully explain it as you have to have intellectual ability to get a degree, especially advanced degrees. I think McCain is very intelligent and considered voting for him in 2000 (or would have if he was the nominee). I just don't like his current stance on issues and how he's shifted much further to the right since 2000, nor how old he is this time around.
[/QUOTE]

There are no education requirements for the position of President. There is a reason for that. It is a bit odd, though, that there are much higher education, background checks, and experience requirements for everyone that works for the President, all the way down to the little man in Langley.

Elected officials never have had requirements. I believe the reason for that is that you are, above all else, voting on their character and wisdom. Sure, you can argue that formal education helps shape character and wisdom, but it isn't crucial.

From what you said, would you be willing to amend the constitution and put educational requirements on elected officials, especially the President?

I guess it doesn't sit well with me that you would take someones chosen occupation such as plumber or electrician and automatically assume they did not have the intellectual capacity on par with presidential candidates. They are automatically written out, in your mind. Nevermind their social or economic situations.

I have two friends with Masters degrees that I can't discuss anything with, they can't hold an intellectual conversation to save their lives.
Conversely, I know two other guys that have never been to school, but are the smartest people I know. One of them could easily work for Nasa, he is so well read on engineering and advanced physics. But he could never afford school and had to take care of his sick father all his life. It's sad, to me, that he would clearly be such an asset to research and scientific development, but we've created a system that requires a piece of paper for those jobs. That's what I have against college.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Wow, $30K with a MS. A CCNA gets you $40K.
[/quote]

Got to add on the paid tuition and fees, and having a job that is 100% flexible around classes, and dissertation work etc.

With my master's degree I've had offers to work at some local research firms that had salaries in the $50-55K range, but turned them down as I didn't want to juggle 40+ hour a week jobs and graduate school.

This $60-80K job ... is a guaranteed position, an interview for a position or less?
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There's no such thing as guaranteed jobs. But there are a ton of openings in my field every year as it's a growing field. And I'm at the top doctoral program in our field. Every single Ph D graduate from the 6 years I've been here has gotten a job right out of school paying at least in that range starting out. A few went to government positions that paid more.

This $60-80K job ... What city will this be in and how much do 2 bedroom apartments cost there?
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Lots of options. Can be a university or research firm in a big city, or can be a university in a small college town. Pay is generally in the same ranges as universities are all competing for the same scholars regardless of location.

But I really don't get the point of this discussion.

1. I've made clear money isn't the main reason I went this route. I like that the pay is decent and I can be financially secure. But I choose this route as I find the subject interesting, like the flexibility, like working to advance knowledge in an area and like teaching given the value I place on education.

The decent pay is just the icing on the cake. I just brought it up to challenge your naive assertion that college is a financially bad decision for everyone. It's not. Just depends on field and what your life and career goals are.

2. I've been clear that I don't think college is for everyone. For someone like you that only cares about making as much money as possible as quickly as possible and supporting a family college may not be the best path. It may be better to just learn a trade, make some money, invest it wisely etc. etc. That will set many people up financially faster than going to college.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I guess this is my primary complaint - what you said here. Not only does it not sit well with me, it seems to somewhat contradict what you said here:
[/quote]

It isn't contradictory. It's just that a person without an outstanding education running for president has to do lot more to prove their intellectual worth to me than a person with advanced degrees from top universities.

Advanced degree's aren't required for a person to be intellectually qualified, but I believe degrees are a sign that shows it's worth giving them the benefit of the doubt if they have them. A person without degrees can prove to be worthy, and a person with them can prove to be unworthy. It's just a matter of different first impressions I guess.

There are no education requirements for the position of President. There is a reason for that. It is a bit odd, though, that there are much higher education, background checks, and experience requirements for everyone that works for the President, all the way down to the little man in Langley.
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Very true. I'd personally support educational requirements, though I know I'm in the minority there.

Elected officials never have had requirements. I believe the reason for that is that you are, above all else, voting on their character and wisdom. Sure, you can argue that formal education helps shape character and wisdom, but it isn't crucial.
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My problem is that stuff is too easy to fake, and people shouldn't vote just on such things. They should study the issues and the persons qualifications and decide who they think will do the job best.

From what you said, would you be willing to amend the constitution and put educational requirements on elected officials, especially the President?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. You have to have degrees to practice law, medicine etc. Why shouldn't the most powerful and important person in the world have similar requirements?

[quote name='thrustbucket']
I guess it doesn't sit well with me that you would take someones chosen occupation such as plumber or electrician and automatically assume they did not have the intellectual capacity on par with presidential candidates. They are automatically written out, in your mind. Nevermind their social or economic situations.
[/quote]

Again, its a first blush thing. Those people can prove their intellectual worth. They just don't get the same benefit of the doubt as someone with degrees.

I have two friends with Masters degrees that I can't discuss anything with, they can't hold an intellectual conversation to save their lives.
Click to expand...

What in? I don't expect great intellectual debates with somone with masters degrees in computer science or engineering. They essentially have degrees in trade skills and haven't spent their academic career studying social issues, learning to think critically etc., so I wouldn't expect them to be more articulate about say politics than my plumber.

Also, were they from good schools? Graduate education is a pretty large waste of time and money, IMO, if you're not at a top 10 (or at least top 20 in larger fields) program. The whole point is to learn from and work with the leading scholars in the field, not just get another piece of paper from any old institution. Unless you're just going to get a piece of paper to get a promotion at work or something.

[quote name='thrustbucket']
Conversely, I know two other guys that have never been to school, but are the smartest people I know. One of them could easily work for Nasa, he is so well read on engineering and advanced physics. But he could never afford school and had to take care of his sick father all his life. It's sad, to me, that he would clearly be such an asset to research and scientific development, but we've created a system that requires a piece of paper for those jobs. That's what I have against college.[/QUOTE]

Sad story, some peole have more obstacles to over come than others. But college is always affordable if one's willing take loans and work hard for scholarships in undergrad. Grad school should only be attended if you were competitive enough to get a funded position in a top program IMO.
 
$60-80K *starting* at the University level? Hardly. A shade under 60K is more likely, even for high institutions.

Now, the private sector? That's another story.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Wow, $30K with a MS. A CCNA gets you $40K.[/quote]

He's essentially getting paid $30k a year to get a PhD.

I don't see why you keep fighting this. There are obviously other ways to get money, and there are certainly other ways to get more money, but on average the more education you get the more you're going to get paid.

Whether it's worth it or not is your own choice.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']$60-80K *starting* at the University level? Hardly. A shade under 60K is more likely, even for high institutions.
[/QUOTE]

That's not what my g/f and others who graduated from here the the past couple of years were offered starting out.

Now if you mean 9 month salary, then yes most were in the high 50s, but pretty much everyone got offered summer salary for the first 2 or 3 years (to give them time to get settled so they can start bringing in grant money to pay their summer salaries) which put their annual salaries up. The $80K is very high end, and just one student with an awesome CV got an offer of just under 80K. Most are in the mid 60's.

At my school the new junior faculty they've hired the past couple of years started in the high 50s to low 60s as well, some have gotten summer salary some haven't (probably depended on what other offers they had). Nearly all the senior faculty is over $100K. But again its the top program so they are pretty competitive salary wise since other schools are always making offers to many of our faculty that have to be countered.
 
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[quote name='SpazX']He's essentially getting paid $30k a year to get a PhD.

I don't see why you keep fighting this. There are obviously other ways to get money, and there are certainly other ways to get more money, but on average the more education you get the more you're going to get paid.

Whether it's worth it or not is your own choice.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. It's a damn good deal, and I get paid more than most as I'm project director on a $350K grant I co-wrote with my advisor. So I'm very happy.

I don't get his view either, other than it's just totally guided by his experience of college being a waste of time for him leading him to be jaded and spout that college is useless period.

It's not for everyone, but as you say on average it makes people more money, and as I've said maximizing profits quickly isn't necessarily everyone's goal and for people with that goal college may not be the best route to take.
 
Engineering interns make more than $30k scale as juniors. Lots of place pay more than that, though. I know GM is $24/hour, so nearly $50k.
 
[quote name='evanft']Engineering interns make more than $30k scale as juniors. Lots of place pay more than that, though. I know GM is $24/hour, so nearly $50k.[/QUOTE]

Yep, engineering is one of the better paying fields out there. Actually, I think it has the highest average starting salaries for people straight out of undergrad.

It's a great field for people into it who want to get a 4 year degree and make a nice paycheck as soon as they graduate.

You definitely don't get into the social sciences for the money. I'll be looking at 11-12 total years of college and grad school by the time I finish up my dissertation and have my Ph D in hand, so a starting salary of around $60K in academia (or 70-80+ in the private sector) isn't really so good when you factor in the time put in if money was your main goal.

It's something you do for love of the topic and/or wanting an academic job.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Great. Just what America needs; it's citizens that chose to put in long years at university endorsing yet another way to divide and segregate America.


If our so-called "Learned folk" can't progress past the divisive nature of human beings to bring us together, who can? And now we see the folly in the argument that we should be voting for our elites. They are no better at overcoming our basic human problems than anyone else and possibly are worse.[/quote]

Humanity divides itself on almost everything. Always have and always will. There's always been a big dream for everyone to sit around and sing Kumbaya but did anyone think how that would be possible?

EDIT -- "Learned folk" are no different than anyone else. They just have enough knowledge about a couple things to get a piece of paper that says their "learned". Plumbers, electricians, and carpenters have as much knowledge but usually don't have the fancy piece of paper from a university to say it. They let their hands do the talking.

EDIT 2 -- This reminds of why Sarah Palin got such a boost for the Republicans. You guys are all bashing dmaul for being a PhD that thinks he knows everything. I didn't really see that. I'd put someone with a PhD over a guy that drives buses all day also. I'm not saying that one person has to live or die because of it but society should place a premium on getting an education. Since when did PhD become a bad word?
 
[quote name='depascal22']
You guys are all bashing dmaul for being a PhD that thinks he knows everything. I didn't really see that.
[/quote]

And to be clear, I absolutely don't think I know everything. I'm reasonably informed in my field, and that's it. I don't go around like Koggitt telling people in other fields what is or isn't good research in their field etc. I'm a criminologist, and that's all I know. And I'm young in my field so I'm far from a leading expert even in my own field.

And I don't believe that having an advanced degree qualifies someone to be president. It's just an initial signal to me that the person is intelligent and well educated. It takes intelligence, rational thinking, patience, delayed gratification, ability to see the big picture etc. etc. to get advanced degrees. Those are qualities I want in my leaders.

But again, there are people without advanced degrees with those qualities, they just don't have the educational background to earn that first impression that somone with a Ph D, law degree etc. has. They have to show they have the ability to be a leader--as McCain has in his 26 or whatever years in congress/senate. I think he's very capable, I just disagree with him on the issues.


[quote name='depascal22']
Since when did PhD become a bad word?[/QUOTE]

It's really depressing. And that was the main point of that newsweek column I linked to later.

I really think a lot of it has to do with how politics is dominated by social issues. People care only about things like abortion, religion (prayer in school, teaching intelligent design etc. etc.), gay marriage, not paying taxes, "lazy" people on welfare and on down the line.

Then you get the intelligentsia who tend to be liberal and theres a backlash against having well educated people in office as they "don't understand the middle class" as they support gay rights, are pro choice, support taxes for social programming etc.

Thus you have both the value of having "elites' in power being ignored, as well as the fact that there are plenty of highly educated conservatives.

It's sad, but those are the types of things that are inevitable when politics comes to be dominated by social issues.
 
[quote name='SpazX']He's essentially getting paid $30k a year to get a PhD.

I don't see why you keep fighting this. There are obviously other ways to get money, and there are certainly other ways to get more money, but on average the more education you get the more you're going to get paid.

Whether it's worth it or not is your own choice.[/quote]

Whoop-tee-doo.

My company will pay for me to get a Master's Degree. I just have to fill out paperwork. Will it get me a promotion? Nope.

Dmaul's first angle is that education will lead to a better job and advanced degrees even more so.

We've crushed that a few times over, right?

Dmaul's second angle is that education will expand your mind. I think there was something about being a more informed voter.

Koggit crushed that a few times over, right?

...

I'd argue you can reach financial independence (re: not having to work) faster by avoiding college if you manage money correctly.

If financial independence can be reached faster without college, one could argue intellectual expansion could be reached faster without college, too.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Again with the petty insults.:roll:[/quote]

Jaded

1.dulled or satiated by overindulgence: a jaded appetite.
2.worn out or wearied, as by overwork or overuse.
3.dissipated: a jaded reprobate.

Were you complimenting me before?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Whoop-tee-doo.

My company will pay for me to get a Master's Degree. I just have to fill out paperwork. Will it get me a promotion? Nope.

Dmaul's first angle is that education will lead to a better job and advanced degrees even more so.

We've crushed that a few times over, right?[/quote]

I personally work in the job placement field and find that statement retarded. More and more companies want people with advanced degrees. In fact, an advanced degree is quickly replacing experience as a primary criteria for hiring or firing.

Want examples??

I tried to get a woman hired over at Time Magazine for an HR Manager position. They wouldn't even look at her resume unless she had a Bachelor's. I don't know if you know much about HR but there are many qualified candidates that just have an Associate's. We also had a chemist that fit the exact needs for Genentech except he had a Master's in Chemistry instead of a PhD. On the flip side, I've had people denied for HR positions because they had too much experience. Yeah, that's right, too much experience.

If anything, professional America wants someone with an advanced degree (that's appropriate for the field and position), two to five years of experience, and one or two former employers. If you are one of those, you are golden and should be looking at any and all job opportunities. If not, hold onto that job with your dear life and work all the extra hours and extra projects you can to be more valuable to your company.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Dmaul's first angle is that education will lead to a better job and advanced degrees even more so.

We've crushed that a few times over, right?[/quote]

Do you honestly need to see the statistics? I know you know them, everybody does.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Median Weekly Earnings - Men - 25 years and older
Less than a high school diploma - 497
High school graduates, no college - 715
Some college or associate degree - 843
Bachelor’s degree and higher - 1,277
Bachelor’s degree only - 1,164
Advanced degree - 1,521

Does it depend on the degree? Of course it does. Does it mean that anyone with a degree will necessarily make more money then anyone without one? Of course not. That doesn't change the trend.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Dmaul's second angle is that education will expand your mind. I think there was something about being a more informed voter.

Koggit crushed that a few times over, right?[/quote]

Koggit didn't crush dick. He made an assumption and then he and dmaul argued over a hypothetical study. "Expanding your mind" pretty much necessarily requires education - just not necessarily formal education.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'd argue you can reach financial independence (re: not having to work) faster by avoiding college if you manage money correctly.[/quote]

That depends on the degree, how much money it would cost to get that degree, the job market, your prospects in any given area without a degree, and how little you're willing to live on while you save money.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']If financial independence can be reached faster without college, one could argue intellectual expansion could be reached faster without college, too.[/quote]

If by "intellectual expansion" you mean knowledge of some kind, then you're probably just switching the order of things - rather than going to college and getting that knowledge in your 20s, you work, save money, and then when you don't have to work anymore you have free time for extra knowledge.

College generally isn't so expensive that you're in so much debt that the extra money you get with your degree is completely canceled out. Especially if you go for an advanced degree where your earnings can be over double that of no degree without too much added cost.

I still don't understand why you're making this argument.
 
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[quote name='RedvsBlue']Dear Nobel Laureates,

Thanks, but no thanks.

Signed,
Barack Obama

Point being? The endorsement of a list of Nobel prize winners isn't going to help much, possibly just hurt really. Using the term "Laureates" further pushes the elitist mindset on top of the fact that just because you've made significant contributions to science doesn't mean you know dick about politics. Hell, there's even a handful of that list that aren't even from America.

Now to be fair their point is that George Bush's administration didn't do much in the way of supporting science research. HOWEVER, John McCain is not George Bush so really at the end of the day all they're doing is pushing the tired old stereotype that Republicans hate science...[/quote]

Because publicly expressing an opinion is GODDAMN UNAMERICAN!!!!!

Oh snap ... My Calvin pissing on stuff decals just came!

[quote name='dmaul1114']Exactly. Some people lose touch, or never had it as they were born wealthy. But it's not like having an advanced education and earning wealthy all of a sudden makes one not understand the middle class.[/quote]

It is a indicator of the Republicans' ability to brainwash that they have successfully cast McCain as "a man of the people" when he owns 7-8 homes (the Obamas just bought their first and only home last year) and 13 cars (again the Obamas own one).

Further, despite his decades in Washington, Biden has the lowest or second lowest net worth of any member of the Senate. He still rides public transit everywhere, lives in a humble house. You know he's had ample opportunities to improve his circumstances by legal but dubious means over the years. He chose not to. I respect that. Meanwhile, Palin's billing taxpayers for travel expenses for 300-something days working from home. :roll:
 
[quote name='SpazX']Do you honestly need to see the statistics? I know you know them, everybody does.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Median Weekly Earnings - Men - 25 years and older
Less than a high school diploma - 497
High school graduates, no college - 715
Some college or associate degree - 843
Bachelor’s degree and higher - 1,277
Bachelor’s degree only - 1,164
Advanced degree - 1,521
[/quote]

Honest questions:

What is the date range of those statistics?

What is the geographic distribution of the statistics?
 
[quote name='SpazX']College generally isn't so expensive that you're in so much debt that the extra money you get with your degree is completely canceled out. Especially if you go for an advanced degree where your earnings can be over double that of no degree without too much added cost.

I still don't understand why you're making this argument.[/quote]

Does the advanced degree allow you to finish the rat race earlier?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep, engineering is one of the better paying fields out there. Actually, I think it has the highest average starting salaries for people straight out of undergrad.

It's a great field for people into it who want to get a 4 year degree and make a nice paycheck as soon as they graduate.[/quote]

Indeed. I believe 7 of the top 8 paying fields right out of school are various engineering disciplines.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Does the advanced degree allow you to finish the rat race earlier?[/quote]

I see you had nothing to say about my comment. Why are you still arguing that education means nothing?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Whoop-tee-doo.

My company will pay for me to get a Master's Degree. I just have to fill out paperwork. Will it get me a promotion? Nope.

Dmaul's first angle is that education will lead to a better job and advanced degrees even more so.
[/quote]

But you have to work full time while getting--doubt they'll be very flexible when you have extra school work. I get paid and my school stuff has always been my top priority, work come second. Also, I forgot I'll actually make a tad over $40k this year as I taught a class and have done some contractual research work which both was extra pay on top of my 30K salary. Not shabby for getting paid to go to school IMO. So it's a good deal--not for someone who just wants out of the "rat race" fast though. But I'm much better off than most graduate students, so I can't complain


Anyway, getting to your main points, I've said over and over that college isn't the only way to make money, and explicitly said that people that only care about making money as quickly as possible should not go to college.

On average, people with college degrees make more money than those without them (see the stats above), but it delays the start of entering the work force. And it's certainly not the case that you can't get wealthy without a degree. You can and probably can faster if you learn a trade that pays well and you're smart with saving money and investing it.

I just don't like you belittling college as useless just because it didn't work out for you. I've never said everyone should go to college or that it's the only way to be successful. You're the one over-generalizing your own bad experience to bash college education. You majored in an oversaturated field, and with your life goals of supporting a family college probably wasn't the way to go anyway. There's nothing wrong with that. I just get annoyed at you saying college is useless, period. And that's how your posts came across.

We've crushed that a few times over, right?


Dmaul's second angle is that education will expand your mind. I think there was something about being a more informed voter.
Click to expand...

It most certainly will expand your mind. And it's definitely not the only way to expand your mind. But it forces you to learn stuff you wouldn't bother with otherwise so you get a more well rounded knowledge. And you gain more perespective on issues from discussions with professors, fellow students etc. vs. just reading stuff and forming opinions completely on your own.

I'd argue you can reach financial independence (re: not having to work) faster by avoiding college if you manage money correctly.
Click to expand...

I agree, and have said that repeatedly, including above. People with that goal probably shouldn't go to college, you can do it faster without it if you learn a trade. And I'd prefer to not have such students--i.e. those who don't care about learning just for learnings sake--in my classes anyway.

If financial independence can be reached faster without college, one could argue intellectual expansion could be reached faster without college, too.
Click to expand...

That one's more debatable. You can certainly self learn, but you miss out a lot from having discussions with professors, fellow students etc. to get more perspective on issues when you're just reading and learning on your own.


[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Does the advanced degree allow you to finish the rat race earlier?[/QUOTE]

But what point you miss here is that those of us who are getting, or have, advavnced degrees don't think we are in the rat race. We love our work, we're not just trying to reach financial independence again.

I, again, agree 100% if you just want to get out of the "rat race" as fast as possible college probably isn't for you and advanced degrees most definitely are not for you.

I've never said otherwise. I just get tired of you shitting on education just because you think everyone is like you and only has life goals of raising a family and being finanancially independent as quickly as possible. Not everyone does. And again for those who do I'd never suggest college or advanced degrees as the best path.
 
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Even learning a trade takes some kind of advanced education. Do you want the self-taught electrician to rewire your home? How about a car mechanic working on a new car with zero computer or diagnostic skills? If you shun education, you're only setting yourself up for failure down the road. That job you have now might not be there in a couple years and an education is a nice thing to fall back on. It's kind of a safety net if you will.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Even learning a trade takes some kind of advanced education. Do you want the self-taught electrician to rewire your home? How about a car mechanic working on a new car with zero computer or diagnostic skills? If you shun education, you're only setting yourself up for failure down the road. That job you have now might not be there in a couple years and an education is a nice thing to fall back on. It's kind of a safety net if you will.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, he's all about getting out of the rat race as fast as possible.

One can learn a trade much quicker. i.e. just go to trade/vocational school for the last two years of high school and you can come out with a lot of certifications as an electrician, mechanic etc.

I don't know if those programs are offered everywhere though, I grow up in WV so they may be more prevalent in rural areas.

But at any rate, I do agree with him that people that just want out of the "rat race" as quick as possible are probably better for doing soemthing like that vs. delaying entering the workforce for 4+ years while getting a degree.
 
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