Battle Looms Over Huge Costs of Public Pensions

RAMSTORIA

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There’s a class war coming to the world of government pensions.

The haves are retirees who were once state or municipal workers. Their seemingly guaranteed and ever-escalating monthly pension benefits are breaking budgets nationwide.

The have-nots are taxpayers who don’t have generous pensions. Their 401(k)s or individual retirement accounts have taken a real beating in recent years and are not guaranteed. And soon, many of those people will be paying higher taxes or getting fewer state services as their states put more money aside to cover those pension checks.

At stake is at least $1 trillion. That’s trillion, with a “t,” as in titanic and terrifying.

The figure comes from a study by the Pew Center on the States that came out in February. Pew estimated a $1 trillion gap as of fiscal 2008 between what states had promised workers in the way of retiree pension, health care and other benefits and the money they currently had to pay for it all. And some economists say that Pew is too conservative and the problem is two or three times as large.

So a question of extraordinary financial, political, legal and moral complexity emerges, something that every one of us will be taking into town meetings and voting booths for years to come: Given how wrong past pension projections were, who should pay to fill the 13-figure financing gap?

Consider what’s going on in Colorado — and what is likely to unfold in other states and municipalities around the country.

Earlier this year, in an act of rare political courage, a bipartisan coalition of state legislators passed a pension overhaul bill. Among other things, the bill reduced the raise that people who are already retired get in their pension checks each year.

This sort of thing just isn’t done. States have asked current workers to contribute more, tweaked the formula for future hires or banned them from the pension plan altogether. But this was apparently the first time that state legislators had forced current retirees to share the pain.

Sharing the burden seems to be the obvious solution so we don’t continue to kick the problem into the future. “We have to take this on, if there is any way of bringing fiscal sanity to our children,” said former Gov. Richard Lamm of Colorado, a Democrat. “The New Deal is demographically obsolete. You can’t fund the dream of the 1960s on the economy of 2010.”

But in Colorado, some retirees and those eligible to retire still want to live that dream. So they sued the state to keep all of the annual cost-of-living increases they thought they would be getting in perpetuity.

The state’s case turns, in part, on whether it is an “actuarial necessity” for the Legislature to make a change. To Meredith Williams, executive director of the Public Employees’ Retirement Association, the state’s pension fund, the answer is pretty simple. “If something didn’t change, we would have run out of money in the foreseeable future,” he said. “So no one would have been paid anything.”

Meanwhile, Gary R. Justus, a former teacher who is one of the lead plaintiffs in the case against the state, asks taxpayers in Colorado and elsewhere to consider an ethical question: Why is the state so quick to break its promises?

After all, he and others like him served their neighbors dutifully for decades. And along the way, state employees made big decisions (and built lifelong financial plans) based on retiring with a full pension that was promised to them in a contract that they say has the force of the state and federal constitutions standing behind it. To them it is deferred compensation, and taking it away is akin to not paying a contractor for paving state highways.

And actuarial necessity or not, Mr. Justus said he didn’t believe he should be responsible for past pension underfunding and the foolish risks that pension managers made with his money long after he retired in 2003.

The changes the Legislature made don’t seem like much: there’s currently a 2 percent cap in retirees’ cost-of-living adjustment for their pension checks instead of the 3.5 percent raise that many of them received before.

But Stephen Pincus, a lawyer for the retirees who have filed suit, estimates that the change will cost pensioners with 30 years of service an average of $165,000 each over the next 20 years.

Mr. Justus, 62, who taught math for 29 years in the Denver public schools, says he thinks it could cost him half a million dollars if he lives another 30 years. He also notes that just about all state workers in Colorado do not (and cannot) pay into Social Security, so the pension is all retirees have to live on unless they have other savings.

No one disputes these figures. Instead, they apologize. “All I can say is that I am sorry,” said Brandon Shaffer, a Democrat, the president of the Colorado State Senate, who helped lead the bipartisan coalition that pushed through the changes. (He also had to break the news to his mom, a retired teacher.) “I am tremendously sympathetic. But as a steward of the public trust, this is what we had to do to preserve the retirement fund.”

Taxpayers, whose payments are also helping to restock Colorado’s pension fund, may not be as sympathetic, though. The average retiree in the fund stopped working at the sprightly age of 58 and deposits a check for $2,883 each month. Many of them also got a 3.5 percent annual raise, no matter what inflation was, until the rules changed this year.

Private sector retirees who want their own monthly $2,883 check for life, complete with inflation adjustments, would need an immediate fixed annuity if they don’t have a pension. A 58-year-old male shopping for one from an A-rated insurance company would have to hand over a minimum of $860,000, according to Craig Hemke of Buyapension.com. A woman would need at least $928,000, because of her longer life expectancy.

Who among aspiring retirees has a nest egg that size, let alone people with the same moderate earning history as many state employees? And who wants to pay to top off someone else’s pile of money via increased income taxes or a radical decline in state services?

If you find the argument of Colorado’s retirees wanting, let your local legislator know that you don’t want to be responsible for every last dollar necessary to cover pension guarantees gone horribly awry. After all, many government employee unions will be taking contrary positions and doing so rather loudly.

If you work for a state or local government, start saving money outside of the pension plan if you haven’t already, because that plan may not last for as long as you need it.

And if you’re a government retiree or getting close to the end of your career? Consider what it means to be a citizen in a community. And what it means to be civil instead of litigious, coming to the table and making a compromise before politicians shove it down your throat and you feel compelled to challenge them to a courthouse brawl.

“We have to do what unions call givebacks,” said Mr. Lamm, the former Colorado governor. “That’s the only way to sanity. Any other alternative, therein lies dragons.”

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Battl...-nytimes-252868470.html?x=0&mod=pf-retirement


and another related story...

L.A. pensions may consume a third of city's general fund by 2015

The cost of retirement benefits for Los Angeles city employees will grow by $800 million over the next five years, dramatically eroding the amount of money available for public services to taxpayers, according to a report issued Tuesday.

In a bleak assessment delivered to members of the City Council, City Administrative Officer Miguel Santana said pensions and health benefits for current and future retirees would jump from $1.4 billion next year to at least $2.2 billion in 2015.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/03/local/la-me-la-city-pensions-20100804

theres a number of us on the board that have complained about the cost of public pensions (being in california i know i have). so whats the solution?
 
I'm a city employee. I make significantly under the median average for my skill set (I make 40% less than the next lowest paid person in my group of college buddies) AND I make 20% below the median average for workers in my city. I make a little more (within 10%) than the typical take home of a janitor. I am college educated with a decade of experience in a specialized and narrow field that is extremely costly to train for (much less find people off the street, we're almost non-existent). My work is extremely hazardous and workers have died on the job via sickness from exposure to volatile chemicals and being electrocuted (not to mention the day to day chemical exposure and inhalation). I am a tier 1 emergency responder and am required to work during hurricanes and natural disasters (while my wife is at home during an disaster alone), during which I am paid 8 hours even if I work 24. Unclebob at Walmart probably makes more than I do. Contractors that I handle regularly offer me positions. A local private utility company has offered me a job once a month for the last 3 months, each time offering more pay (last offer was 68% more than I make now).

I do it for the pension and because I love working for the city and feeling like I can return value for taxpayers' hard earned money.

To those that think we're all ripping you off: fuck you.

If I work this job to 30 years and then you yank my pension, I would lose my shit.
Private sector retirees who want their own monthly $2,883 check for life, complete with inflation adjustments, would need an immediate fixed annuity if they don’t have a pension. A 58-year-old male shopping for one from an A-rated insurance company would have to hand over a minimum of $860,000, according to Craig Hemke of Buyapension.com. A woman would need at least $928,000, because of her longer life expectancy.
Assuming I work 25 years (avg for my job at the city) and using the offer currently on the table and assuming that I never become more valuable than that for the next 25 years and that inflation is 0% for the next 25 years, the city gets me for $885,000 below market value.

I'd say that's damned fair. I'd say that's about square.
 
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[quote name='speedracer']I'm a city employee. I make significantly under the median average for my skill set (I make 40% less than the next lowest paid person in my group of college buddies) AND I make 20% below the median average for workers in my city. I make a little more (within 10%) than the typical take home of a janitor. I am college educated with a decade of experience in a specialized and narrow field that is extremely costly to train for (much less find people off the street, we're almost non-existent). My work is extremely hazardous and workers have died on the job via sickness from exposure to volatile chemicals and being electrocuted (not to mention the day to day chemical exposure and inhalation). I am a tier 1 emergency responder and am required to work during hurricanes and natural disasters (while my wife is at home during an disaster alone), during which I am paid 8 hours even if I work 24. Unclebob at Walmart probably makes more than I do. Contractors that I handle regularly offer me positions. A local private utility company has offered me a job once a month for the last 3 months, each time offering more pay (last offer was 68% more than I make now).

I do it for the pension and because I love working for the city and feeling like I can return value for taxpayers' hard earned money.

To those that think we're all ripping you off: fuck you.

If I work this job to 30 years and then you yank my pension, I would lose my shit.

Assuming I work 25 years (avg for my job at the city) and using the offer currently on the table and assuming that I never become more valuable than that for the next 25 years and that inflation is 0% for the next 25 years, the city gets me for $885,000 below market value.

I'd say that's damned fair. I'd say that's about square.[/QUOTE]

so because you get paid less at your job than you could at another job, the city (and taxpayers) is really breaking even in the end... is that what youre saying?

so you work for the next 25 years and retire, you get a pension as long as you live, full benefits etc. funded by me the taxpayer, who will retire in 40 some odd years, putting as much as i can into my 401k, crossing my fingers that SSA will still be around and hopefully that will be enough for me to settle down and live out my years. meanwhile a third or more the city general fund is going towards pensions, so in order to help compensate ill have to pay more taxes when i withdraw from my 401k that i put into for decades so that you can live comfortably.

thats why theres a looming battle over pensions. why shouldnt public employees put their money into 401ks or IRAs instead of counting on taxpayers to fund their retirement.
 
It's definitely an issue that needs to be sorted out, I think public sector workers should be paid market value and have to save like everyone else.

Seems like the fairest way.

[quote name='speedracer'] Contractors that I handle regularly offer me positions. A local private utility company has offered me a job once a month for the last 3 months, each time offering more pay (last offer was 68% more than I make now).[/QUOTE]

If you've been offered jobs with higher pay I'm guessing you must think you're getting a good deal working for the city.
 
Speedracer, while I'm with you 100%, to have your pension yanked out from underneath you is beyond horses*&$t, and there's gotta be some legal recourse if it were to occur, but as far as grumbling about being drastically underpaid despite multiple offers that pay better, I don't really have any sympathy. You're doing what we all do in our careers. Weigh our options and make a choice. Some of us look for a higher paying job up front, realizing the benefits at retirement won't be there, others take your route and essentially invest. You're saying you're willing to work for less, because when you retire, you'll have a far better return on your "investment".

I don't really see why we should feel sorry for you. You're doing exactly what all of us do. Weigh the positives and negatives of a job, and choose to accept or refuse it. In fact, you're in a different boat than many of us because you're even getting job offers for much more money, that you're choosing to turn down.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']If an government or a company hands out too lucrative of a pension, that isn't the fault of the working stiff.[/QUOTE]

they arent handed out. theyve been created after decades of lobbying from unions.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I don't really see why we should feel sorry for you. You're doing exactly what all of us do. Weigh the positives and negatives of a job, and choose to accept or refuse it. In fact, you're in a different boat than many of us because you're even getting job offers for much more money, that you're choosing to turn down.[/QUOTE]

He isn't asking for sympathy. He is asking not to change the terms of the deal he signed up for.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']they arent handed out. theyve been created after decades of lobbying from unions.[/QUOTE]

Do the unions have "guns" to the government's heads?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Whatever happened to not buying something you couldn't afford?[/QUOTE]

good question. you can ask my state senator if you'd like...

Darrell Steinberg
1020 N Street, #576
Sacramento, CA 95814
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']good question. you can ask my state senator if you'd like...

Darrell Steinberg
1020 N Street, #576
Sacramento, CA 95814[/QUOTE]

Here's the thing about screwing public retirees and employees over.

You'll either have to cut services or pay more through a private contractor.

Which would you prefer?
 
And if you’re a government retiree or getting close to the end of your career? Consider what it means to be a citizen in a community. And what it means to be civil instead of litigious, coming to the table and making a compromise before politicians shove it down your throat and you feel compelled to challenge them to a courthouse brawl.

“We have to do what unions call givebacks,” said Mr. Lamm, the former Colorado governor. “That’s the only way to sanity. Any other alternative, therein lies dragons.”
And yet when it came time to bail out wall street and reevaluate wall street exec pay, suddenly we were a "nation of laws" with contracts that these companies (and by extension our govt that was bailing them out) had the highest moral imperative to honor.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Here's the thing about screwing public retirees and employees over.

You'll either have to cut services or pay more through a private contractor.

Which would you prefer?[/QUOTE]

id prefer public retirees contribute to their own retirement plans such as a 401k or IRA and not given a pension. if the employer matches a percentage of the contribution thats fine. i dont think its fair for public employees to be set for live after working 25 years and retiring at 58 while the taxpayer funds their retirement and works until their 70 hoping to have enough for a comfortable retirement.

i wouldnt mind some services being cut too, but thats another story.

[quote name='camoor']And yet when it came time to bail out wall street and reevaluate wall street exec pay, suddenly we were a "nation of laws" with contracts that these companies (and by extension our govt that was bailing them out) had the highest moral imperative to honor.[/QUOTE]

i think we can agree that virtually everybody on this board dislikes the bailout.
 
As far as I'm concerned when you work you should invest enough so you can live within' 90% of your working wage.
I'm sick and fucking tired of seeing people's money made, when they retire, essentially marking them as worthless. Just because they can't do as efficient a job as a younger person in the workforce that doesn't mean they don't contribute in a very worthwhile manner to society.
As for investment here are some of my suggestions. Besides Wall Street, most of your money should primarily be in land investment. You should hold at best 10-20% in gold and other precious metals and gems.
I say land because it's just something that's a lot more stable as an investment. Look at land, on average, and you'll see it doesn't wildly fluctuate at times like Gold. I don't know how bad Silver or Platinum is but I have to think they're a bit similar.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']so because you get paid less at your job than you could at another job, the city (and taxpayers) is really breaking even in the end... is that what youre saying?[/quote]
No, the city comes out well ahead. The package they offer includes deferred payment in the form of a pension. Instead of me collecting interest or investing long term with it as I actually accrue the income, they do. If you really want to get down to it, basically I'm giving the city a 25-30 year interest free loan. Between now and the day I retire, they keep every single cent that $885,000 accrues. If you really want to get crazy with it, I think doing so also allows them to hedge against inflation since it's a defined benefit. Even if inflation goes insane, I'm not owed more money. I'm carrying the liability of inflation and the city gets to offload risk onto its employees. If inflation skyrocketed and I was paid market value, my salary would skyrocket as well to keep pace. Instead I'm locked in at a defined rate. That's how all pensions work. Hell, they make money when managed correctly.
so you work for the next 25 years and retire, you get a pension as long as you live, full benefits etc. funded by me the taxpayer
First off, there's a wide gap between the rhetoric of politicians and reality as well as between federals (apparently) and state and city employees. For my health care coverage, I pay out of pocket $315 a month. The city also picks up the rest of the tab. When I retire, they pay less than they do now and I pay more. So let's slow down with the whole I'm soaking you with full health care thing.
who will retire in 40 some odd years, putting as much as i can into my 401k
You're choosing an employer that pays up front. It's probably a wise thing to do.
meanwhile a third or more the city general fund is going towards pensions, so in order to help compensate ill have to pay more taxes when i withdraw from my 401k that i put into for decades so that you can live comfortably.
So here's how it happens in the real world:

GREAT IDEA: Entity (government, private, whoever) realizes they can offload risk AND make a profit if they have employees defer pay and allow the entity to collect the interest. Helluva deal! And it really, REALLY is. Shit, they can even put the money made back into salaries and health care, etc. The dumbass employees are paying themselves with their own money. fucking brilliant!

A REALITY MOMENT: Politicians/companies/entities spend too much money. Shocker of shockers! So they're looking for ways to save money. They look at the employees deferred compensation (or "pension" fund) and they think wait a minute. If we didn't have to pay our employees WHAT WE HAVE PROMISED AND ARE CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGED TO PAY THEM, we can save money!

HORRENDOUS IDEA: So they do it. They withhold their payment to the pension plan. But what now? It's promised and they're required to pay it! So now we have ourselves an unfunded liability. Not only are they not paying in the principle (what they actually owe us), but they're not making interest on the money, so now we've got a snowball effect. The next year they're paying for that year they're in PLUS the year they didn't PLUS the interest because otherwise they get behind.

Virginia did exactly that one month ago.

The money shot of money shots. Think hard about the following passage. It's all there in black and white.
The IOU is one of the budget remedies lawmakers relied on to close a projected $4.2 billion gap over the coming biennium. And it comes after the General Assembly reduced its payment to Virginia Retirement System (VRS) for the fiscal year that run through June 30 by about $150 million.

The moves allowed the state and localities to delay nearly $1 billion in payments to the VRS, which covers 600,000 teachers, state workers, police officers and judges.

While the short-term savings are welcome news for the state and for localities struggling to balance their budgets, the bad news is the state and localities eventually will have to pick up the tab.
Balanced budget! Hooray! Wait, WTF?


No worries though. In a couple of years we can all talk about how Virginia public employees are leeching bastards.
[quote name='berzirk']but as far as grumbling about being drastically underpaid despite multiple offers that pay better, I don't really have any sympathy. You're doing what we all do in our careers. Weigh our options and make a choice. Some of us look for a higher paying job up front, realizing the benefits at retirement won't be there, others take your route and essentially invest. You're saying you're willing to work for less, because when you retire, you'll have a far better return on your "investment".[/quote]
What FoC said. I just want my deferred compensation that was offered and accepted. That's it. I absolutely will NOT have a better return than if I managed it myself, but I'm willing to let them manage it because they make money on it (theoretically!) and it's what they offered to be competitive with my other offers. Plus I get to worry that a politician will, with the stroke of a pen, retroactively decrease my pay for three decades of work. That's a real, tangible risk that I carry on my financial statement. If I was a corporation, I would have to state it in the notes of my financials as a potential liability. Medium risk? Maybe, but the actual damage could be massive to an individual depending on the size of the hit and to which I have zero ability to hedge against. In my book, that's serious business.
I don't really see why we should feel sorry for you. You're doing exactly what all of us do. Weigh the positives and negatives of a job, and choose to accept or refuse it. In fact, you're in a different boat than many of us because you're even getting job offers for much more money, that you're choosing to turn down.
Totally. I don't mean to come off as a pretentious douche. I was just stating the conditions my employment entails. I wanted to put a human face on the "goddamn public employee" by pointing those things out. I love the shit out of my job, literally. Literally. Shit. haha.
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']they arent handed out. theyve been created after decades of lobbying from unions.[/QUOTE]
The union at the city is less than 10 years old and is the weakest union I've ever seen. They didn't do anything. This is Texas man. Unions have zero strength here.
 
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Imma keep going because now I'm all thinkin about it and I want to rant and I probably killed the thread anyway.

So the city/state/entity is in real deep shit now. How the hell are they going to get out of this? Got it! They're going to cut the "entitlement" (nothing pisses me off more than calling MY MONEY an entitlement) to new workers, in effect lowering their pay. The accountants still book the same amount of money that the city is paying into the pension the same for Mr. Speedracer, but I actually get less on the other side than people in now. Whew! Everything is safe again.

Oh shit! Budget problem in XYZ dept! Where are we going to get the money from? I know! Pensions!

And on. And on. And on.

And then years or decades or forever since I actually worked for my money, some shitbag comes on and talks about how I, Mr. Worked My Ass Off For 30 Years, is destroying our budget and our country with my overwhelming greed. Mr. Greedy Bastard Public Employee and his personally enriching ponzi scheme is killing us all.

It's the unions fault, clearly. It's the greedy employee, clearly.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']i think we can agree that virtually everybody on this board dislikes the bailout.[/QUOTE]

Maybe but all the execs got their money. They all made obscene profits in the face of abject failure. Meanwhile a working stiff like you who is actually putting something back into the community, well they're talking about tearing up your contract and when your benefits come due.

Rewarding failure in the marketplace and punishing pubic servants because the top politicians can't balance a budget, that's not what I look for in my government.
 
man i wish there was an easier way to break up quotes...

[quote name='speedracer']No, the city comes out well ahead. The package they offer includes deferred payment in the form of a pension. Instead of me collecting interest or investing long term with it as I actually accrue the income, they do. If you really want to get down to it, basically I'm giving the city a 25-30 year interest free loan. Between now and the day I retire, they keep every single cent that $885,000 accrues. If you really want to get crazy with it, I think doing so also allows them to hedge against inflation since it's a defined benefit. Even if inflation goes insane, I'm not owed more money. I'm carrying the liability of inflation and the city gets to offload risk onto its employees. If inflation skyrocketed and I was paid market value, my salary would skyrocket as well to keep pace. Instead I'm locked in at a defined rate. That's how all pensions work. Hell, they make money when managed correctly. [/QUOTE]

sure thats great if your country/state/county/city etc is running a surplus. problem is were in a time when they are facing million and billion dollar shortfalls. the state of california doesnt have the funds for the state, let alone for the pension...

The California state pension system, for example, has only 60 percent of the assets needed to pay its obligations through 2042.


First off, there's a wide gap between the rhetoric of politicians and reality as well as between federals (apparently) and state and city employees. For my health care coverage, I pay out of pocket $315 a month. The city also picks up the rest of the tab. When I retire, they pay less than they do now and I pay more. So let's slow down with the whole I'm soaking you with full health care thing.

fair enough, pensions vary from company to company, city, state, etc. your city might be doing just fine with their arrangement, unlike the CALPERS fund.

You're choosing an employer that pays up front. It's probably a wise thing to do.

well see, my 401k is going down down down.

So here's how it happens in the real world:

GREAT IDEA: Entity (government, private, whoever) realizes they can offload risk AND make a profit if they have employees defer pay and allow the entity to collect the interest. Helluva deal! And it really, REALLY is. Shit, they can even put the money made back into salaries and health care, etc. The dumbass employees are paying themselves with their own money. fucking brilliant!

A REALITY MOMENT: Politicians/companies/entities spend too much money. Shocker of shockers! So they're looking for ways to save money. They look at the employees deferred compensation (or "pension" fund) and they think wait a minute. If we didn't have to pay our employees WHAT WE HAVE PROMISED AND ARE CONTRACTUALLY OBLIGED TO PAY THEM, we can save money!

HORRENDOUS IDEA: So they do it. They withhold their payment to the pension plan. But what now? It's promised and they're required to pay it! So now we have ourselves an unfunded liability. Not only are they not paying in the principle (what they actually owe us), but they're not making interest on the money, so now we've got a snowball effect. The next year they're paying for that year they're in PLUS the year they didn't PLUS the interest because otherwise they get behind.

Virginia did exactly that one month ago.

The money shot of money shots. Think hard about the following passage. It's all there in black and white.

Balanced budget! Hooray! Wait, WTF?


No worries though. In a couple of years we can all talk about how Virginia public employees are leeching bastards.

theyre are good solutions and bad solutions. this is a bad one and just as short sighted as some pensions are. in the end nobody will benefit from this.

What FoC said. I just want my deferred compensation that was offered and accepted. That's it. I absolutely will NOT have a better return than if I managed it myself, but I'm willing to let them manage it because they make money on it (theoretically!) and it's what they offered to be competitive with my other offers. Plus I get to worry that a politician will, with the stroke of a pen, retroactively decrease my pay for three decades of work. That's a real, tangible risk that I carry on my financial statement. If I was a corporation, I would have to state it in the notes of my financials as a potential liability. Medium risk? Maybe, but the actual damage could be massive to an individual depending on the size of the hit and to which I have zero ability to hedge against. In my book, that's serious business.

its an ugly situation and im not saying we should yank out pensions out from under people. but i do think there is a way to move forward and rework the system. we cant just take away someones money who worked 30 years and has been retired 10 and say sorry. but we should be able to look at people who have been working 5 years (give or take a few depending on the situation) and say look, we gotta change this, your new retirement plan is X.

Totally. I don't mean to come off as a pretentious douche. I was just stating the conditions my employment entails. I wanted to put a human face on the "goddamn public employee" by pointing those things out. I love the shit out of my job, literally. Literally. Shit. haha.

the other side of the coin, i dont want you to think that im attacking you personally in anyway. my gripe is with the politicians and the programs theyve set up that are simply unsustainable. i understand your desire to get yours, everyone wants theirs.

The union at the city is less than 10 years old and is the weakest union I've ever seen. They didn't do anything. This is Texas man. Unions have zero strength here.

YMMV ;)
 
Speedracer, I hear ya. I probably worded it poorly in terms of sympathy and all that. My point, and one that we seem to agree on, is that from a compensation standpoint, you're electing to start and stay with this position, even when presented with alternatives. Now intrinsically, you say you love your job. As a person that's finally in a job I enjoy, after a couple of very unenjoyable ones, I fully realize the value in that. I just wish I had a sweet retirement package to look forward to because I most certainly do not.

But I agree 100%, it's complete trash to think that someone can change the terms of your employment (the pension offering) once you've already put time in. If they want to change it for future employees, so be it, but you guys who are already in, that's shady.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Imma keep going because now I'm all thinkin about it and I want to rant and I probably killed the thread anyway.

So the city/state/entity is in real deep shit now. How the hell are they going to get out of this? Got it! They're going to cut the "entitlement" (nothing pisses me off more than calling MY MONEY an entitlement) to new workers, in effect lowering their pay. The accountants still book the same amount of money that the city is paying into the pension the same for Mr. Speedracer, but I actually get less on the other side than people in now. Whew! Everything is safe again.

Oh shit! Budget problem in XYZ dept! Where are we going to get the money from? I know! Pensions!

And on. And on. And on.

And then years or decades or forever since I actually worked for my money, some shitbag comes on and talks about how I, Mr. Worked My Ass Off For 30 Years, is destroying our budget and our country with my overwhelming greed. Mr. Greedy Bastard Public Employee and his personally enriching ponzi scheme is killing us all.

It's the unions fault, clearly. It's the greedy employee, clearly.[/QUOTE]

On the other side it's an emotional knee-jerk arguement. In a country where the middle class has all but dissappeared and the poor are treated like dirt, your position in life probably looks pretty cushy. It's a sad state of affairs when, instead of waking up and realizing that you're actually getting what you deserve, they attack you for it.

It's always safe to speak out against govt spending. However on the right and even much of the left it is still considered distasteful to point out the vast wealth inequalities that exist in the private sector, to ask whether all of those executives are really earning their enormous salaries, and to ask what fair compensation for employees truly looks like.

So guys like RAM are going to keep squeezing that turnip for more blood, not realizing how much hurt is going on all around them.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Speedracer, I hear ya. I probably worded it poorly in terms of sympathy and all that. My point, and one that we seem to agree on, is that from a compensation standpoint, you're electing to start and stay with this position, even when presented with alternatives. Now intrinsically, you say you love your job. As a person that's finally in a job I enjoy, after a couple of very unenjoyable ones, I fully realize the value in that. I just wish I had a sweet retirement package to look forward to because I most certainly do not.

But I agree 100%, it's complete trash to think that someone can change the terms of your employment (the pension offering) once you've already put time in. If they want to change it for future employees, so be it, but you guys who are already in, that's shady.[/QUOTE]

It happens in the private sector all. the. time.
 
You should consider the advice I mentioned before about investing in land and do your homework RAMSTORIA. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in seeing the money in your 401K going back up.
Also I forgot to mention investing in firearms.
 
[quote name='camoor']
So guys like RAM are going to keep squeezing that turnip for more blood, not realizing how much hurt is going on all around them.[/QUOTE]

we dont have money. its as simple as that. california doesnt have enough money fund the state (from schools to medical to state parks and so on), it doesnt have enough money to fund the pensions. this isnt about private enterprise salaries for CEOs down to janitors, its about the governments ability (or inability) to manage budgets.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']we dont have money. its as simple as that. california doesnt have enough money fund the state (from schools to medical to state parks and so on), it doesnt have enough money to fund the pensions. this isnt about private enterprise salaries for CEOs down to janitors, its about the governments ability (or inability) to manage budgets.[/QUOTE]

Florsheim didn't have the money when they cut my great aunt's pension.
 
If you work for the (City, State, Federal) government and they're failing, then aren't you rewarding the employees by giving them money that they earned while the "business" they worked for circled the drain?
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']right?[/QUOTE]

Do you think stripping her pension was the right thing to do?

Don't worry. She has been dead for nearly a decade and was in her 80s when she died.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Do you think stripping her pension was the right thing to do?

Don't worry. She has been dead for nearly a decade and was in her 80s when she died.[/QUOTE]

well you said they didnt have the money, how would she is paid if theres nothing to pay her with. its irrelevant if its right or wrong if they cant do it.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']If you work for the (City, State, Federal) government and they're failing, then aren't you rewarding the employees by giving them money that they earned while the "business" they worked for circled the drain?[/QUOTE]
Deferred compensation is not a stock option, Bob. I could see how you'd get those confused since they have nothing to do with each other.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']well you said they didnt have the money, how would she is paid if theres nothing to pay her with. its irrelevant if its right or wrong if they cant do it.[/QUOTE]

They could have dismantled their business and paid her and every other retiree a share of the sale.

However, they declared bankruptcy and reissued stock.

http://www.florsheim.com/shop/index.html

The company still exists and still produces a product. Any money they make should go towards servicing the pensions of their employees.

It wasn't a matter of not having the money. It was a matter of running themselves into the ground long enough so they could screw over their retirees and start with a clean slate.

...

Regarding screwing over public employees, I'm all in favor of reducing the pensions of future retirees and big gubmint reducing the scope of services they provide. The instant you start squeezing the people who gave the best years of their lives to your company, cause, government or whatever, you've entered piece of shit territory.

Nobody honorable rewrites the terms of a contract after the contract has been completed.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']we dont have money. its as simple as that. california doesnt have enough money fund the state (from schools to medical to state parks and so on), it doesnt have enough money to fund the pensions. this isnt about private enterprise salaries for CEOs down to janitors, its about the governments ability (or inability) to manage budgets.[/QUOTE]

OK. In that case we should be talking about what services to cut, or who to raise taxes on.

I agree with FOC, whenever someone starts seriously talking about reconsideration of their contractual obligations you can pretty much assume they have zero integrity. I learned this way back on the playground, it's called welshing.

I also love how they always pick the easy target, the powerless old guy, the retired public servant who's already given you the best years of his life. I'd rather they renege on another contractual obligation like the office supplies contract - at least that would be entertaining. "I'm sorry, we can't renew your restaurant license because our printer is out of ink. Permenantly."
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']They could have dismantled their business and paid her and every other retiree a share of the sale.

However, they declared bankruptcy and reissued stock.

http://www.florsheim.com/shop/index.html

The company still exists and still produces a product. Any money they make should go towards servicing the pensions of their employees.

It wasn't a matter of not having the money. It was a matter of running themselves into the ground long enough so they could screw over their retirees and start with a clean slate.[/QUOTE]

As someone with relatives who have lived through this, I 100% sympathize.

There's a saying "If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain."

In this day and age, I think it's backwards.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Please provide any quote from me where I made any such claim?[/QUOTE]
You described an equity position, Bob.
 
[quote name='speedracer']You described an equity position, Bob.[/QUOTE]

I described a lot of things.

Should employees be entitled to extended benefits when the business they worked for performed horribly while those employees worked there?
 
And not every employee within a company is responsible when a company fails.

But if teachers weren't virtually guaranteed that comfy pension, I wonder if they'd think twice about, say, supporting the school buying new uniforms for the football team every year? Or, perhaps, who they're voting into office that's running up those debts.
 
This entire thread reminds me of the housing arguments. I mean you have Ram that is basically saying that if there is no money then it is okay to drop your commitments. Then you have FoC saying that those commitments should be honored until no longer possible, even and dissolution of all assets. Under Rams thinking if I am hovering close to bankruptcy I should just get rid of my obligations and keep my stuff and start over (In a more ghetto way, sign my stuff over to a family member, and tell all my creditors to F off) because hey I don't have the means anymore, I shouldn't be expected to fulfill the contract anymore. Under FoC I lose the house, the car, the dog house, and even my little ice cube trays to try to honor my obligation as much as possible. In Bob's world apparently both are bad because a criminal has broken a 50 dollar window and now the baker is out of a window or something along those lines.

I don't know, Rams position seems to be based upon the acceptance of thievery, stealing labor by lying and promising one price then when the service is fulfilled, taking it away and never getting punished. There is just something inherently wrong with that picture.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']But if teachers weren't virtually guaranteed that comfy pension[/QUOTE]
This is why we can't have nice things.
 
Poor, poor government employees... working below market value...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm

At a time when workers' pay and benefits have stagnated, federal employees' average compensation has grown to more than double what private sector workers earn, a USA TODAY analysis finds.

Federal workers have been awarded bigger average pay and benefit increases than private employees for nine years in a row. The compensation gap between federal and private workers has doubled in the past decade.

Federal civil servants earned average pay and benefits of $123,049 in 2009 while private workers made $61,051 in total compensation, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis. The data are the latest available.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Poor, poor government employees... working below market value...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm[/QUOTE]
You should read the thread. We covered that in the first 5 posts. The people with the pension "problems" are not federal employees. It's state and city. The feds never touch their federal employee pension so SURPRISE, they don't have pension problems. The feds only steal from the social security pension (ie your pension) and that's to give tax breaks.

I know. Iz hard n stuff.
 
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