Bernie Madoff

Koggit

Koggit

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It's just money.

In addition to CAG I frequent a law forum (mostly pre-law ppl, but quite a few law students also)... people there are flipping out. There are talks about "is 150 years enough?", "do you think he could find anyone willing to represent him if he went to court?", etc... imo, it's just not that bad at all... I seem to be the only one there of that opinion, so I figured I'd see what you guy thought.

IMO, he no doubt belongs in jail for the rest of his life, but I really don't think what he did is as bad as even a single murder or rape, much less mass murderers. People there are comparing him to dictators who've killed hundreds. I find that ridiculous. I definitely believe there are 1000's of criminals in America who are more vile than Bernie Madoff... it's just money.
 
I agree. We have a local that was convicted of molesting a minor (like, crazy young - under 6). Got some crap like 5 years probation. So, we have a convicted child molester on the streets while a guy who stole some money (granted, it was a lot) is in jail?

Look at it this way - if you were going to have to leave your loved ones with one of these two people, which would it be?

[quote name='perdition(troy']ya dude, its just peoples life savings. they'll get over it. completely agree.[/QUOTE]

Those who invested in Madoff's schemes and lost "everything" broke the first - and most important - rule of investing. Don't invest more than you can afford to lose.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']It is just money. A lot of people are hurt, but you aren't supposed to put your mortgage money into the stock market.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. There's all this outcry against the various banking and financial institutions for taking huge risks in order to make huge profits. But when the little guy does it, we're supposed to cry about it for him?

I have high hopes that we Americans will learn something from all of this.

Low expectations... but high hopes.
 
predators, whether sexual, financial or straight up pure violence, are terrible citizens
sometimes they are monsters, but their behavior is always monstrous
a punishment at this point isn't going to get people's money back, nor will it be preventative from future crimes

what is (more) monstrous is those whose responsibilities are to prevent financially preying on others failing so spectacularly
 
I have difficulty summoning pity for most of those ripped off by Madoff. I've read that many people invested with him because they thought he was an inside trader. And let's be honest here, it's not even like the guy tried to cover his tracks very well (the accounting firm was loltastic). If anything, the shitheads that were referring business to him should have their dicks sued off. Due diligence anyone? And since when did someone return that much that consistently in the history of the frakking world?

Plus that whole don't write any checks your ass can't cash thing about the market. And that whole don't put it all in one place.

MOAR RISK PLZ

What makes this epic is that I guaran-goddamn-tee you that 98% of these clients vote their wallets and vote less regulation.
 
[quote name='speedracer']What makes this epic is that I guaran-goddamn-tee you that 98% of these clients vote their wallets and vote less regulation.[/QUOTE]

How would more regulation have stopped a Madoff? :whistle2:?
 
Money is an extension of your life..It comes from your time, sweat, energy..hours of study and hard effort. To steal money is to steal a part of someone's life. Hundreds of billions $$ in fraud is the equivalent of many murders IMO.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']If you equate stealing money with murder, you must have a fairly low opinion on the value of an innocent life.[/QUOTE]

Give me 1 supervolcano and the price of a human life will skyrocket.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']How would more regulation have stopped a Madoff? :whistle2:?[/QUOTE]
A good start would be auditing these firms. There's no sensible reason why these financial "instruments" are outside of the typical regulatory process. I think there's a smart way to do it. Whether we could actually implement a smart way is probably a different story.

[quote name='UncleBob']If you equate stealing money with murder, you must have a fairly low opinion on the value of an innocent life.[/QUOTE]
The simple act of existing is not a wealth generating activity, and therefore not valued. Something like that, right Capitalizt?

"Many" you say. How "many"? Since you seem to have an ability to price life, what is the value of one? What causes the value of one to increase or decrease?
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Money is an extension of your life..It comes from your time, sweat, energy..hours of study and hard effort. To steal money is to steal a part of someone's life. Hundreds of billions $$ in fraud is the equivalent of many murders IMO.[/QUOTE]

Capitalizt, this is one of those rare moments where I agree with you. Ideally money should represent everything you cite above, but in this economy it's winner take all and the winners are the exeuctive class who cut up the cake and leave the rest of us scrambling for the crumbs that drop to the floor. This case is even worse because it was outright theft, as sure as a hood with a gun only on a massive scale. Theft can ruin a life as sure as a violent assault. This scam has a body count, this scam has ruined marriages and wiped out reserves of charitable organizations.

[quote name='UncleBob']If you equate stealing money with murder, you must have a fairly low opinion on the value of an innocent life.[/QUOTE]

Give me a break. This society puts a pricetag on life every day - why do you think the executive class has one set of health plans, the middle class has one tier down, and the poor can get little to no healthcare.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Don't invest more than you can afford to lose.[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? That's the rule of gambling! Investment is not gambling. It could go down, it could go up, sure, you could lose it all, but it is not gambling. This was not an investment that went sour, this is theft.

What would you have them do with their retirement savings if not invest them? Mattress? Coffee can, buried in a hole in the ground?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']camoor: How much is your life worth? Give me a price.[/QUOTE]

I think I could trade myself for a used ps3.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']camoor: How much is your life worth? Give me a price.[/QUOTE]

Personally, my life is worth around $300k-$400k. The great thing is that somebody else will pay the fee. You just have to provide the death.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']camoor: How much is your life worth? Give me a price.[/QUOTE]

You're asking me? For me price doesn't factor. Obviously I would pay any price I could to keep myself and my loved ones healthy and well. To me, the life of myself and my loved ones is priceless.

Therefore it comes down to a question of assets, because these represent the social chips that one can cash in for services (to a certain degree they also represent power, stature, and influence). Add up a person's assets and you have society's answer.

If you lose those social chips gambling, well so be it you knew the risks. However when somebody steals these social chips they are obligated to repay the debt and be punished accordingly, if they leave you destitute with no possibility of repayment the only thing that can be done is a punishment severe enough to serve as a deterrent. Obviously the S&L punishments didn't work, so the system has been forced to turn up the heat.

Massive white-collar crime will no longer be tolerated by the American public. You can't enact draconian punishment on petty crime committed by poverty stricken Americans, and then shrug your shoulders and say it's just money when the fatcats do the same on a massive scale. It's not just. I know that's bad news for the rich and their lawyers, but too bad.

I would love to see a "Cops" type show where the police took down white collar criminals the way they take down trailer park criminals. That would be social justice.
 
[quote name='camoor']
I would love to see a "Cops" type show where the police took down white collar criminals the way they take down trailer park criminals. That would be social justice.[/QUOTE]

But more realistically, it would just be defense attorneys sitting across the table from DAs or federal prosecutors negotiating terms for their client to turn themselves in. I don't think too many investment bankers would flee shirtless over the fence into their neighbors yard, but you never know.
 
[quote name='camoor']You're asking me? For me price doesn't factor. Obviously I would pay any price I could to keep myself and my loved ones healthy and well. To me, the life of myself and my loved ones is priceless.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'm asking you... you said:

[quote name='camoor']Give me a break. This society puts a pricetag on life every day[/QUOTE]

Are you not a member of society? Put a price tag on your life.

[quote name='Quillion']Are you serious? That's the rule of gambling! Investment is not gambling.[/QUOTE]

Show me an investment that has a 100% guaranteed return rate.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Show me an investment that has a 100% guaranteed return rate.[/QUOTE]

You're dodging the question, and labeling all risk as gambling. Risks are evaluated, exposed and discussed when selecting an investment. Did Madoff's prospectuses and disclosure forms say: "Investment may be used fro my personal gain, and no actual stocks will be purchased. Also, if the feds investigate me, you will get no return."

Answer my question: What would you have them do with their money?
 
>"Risks are evaluated, exposed and discussed when selecting an investment."
Oddly enough, a gambler can do the exact same thing when setting at the blackjack table. Even the roulette wheel. Hell, I'd even argue that gambling is a safer bet in that you have a better chance of knowing the outcome. If you bet on 23-Red, you know there's a 37 in 38 chance you're going to lose it all with a 1 in 38 chance of winning. What are your risks and potential gains when buying a share of stock?

>"What would you have them do with their money?"
The mattress thing is a good idea. :D

Honestly, I would recommend investing it - but I would never recommend dumping "everything you own" into the hands of one individual or one company. I think the second rule of investing is something about eggs and baskets.
 
[quote name='bvharris']But more realistically, it would just be defense attorneys sitting across the table from DAs or federal prosecutors negotiating terms for their client to turn themselves in. I don't think too many investment bankers would flee shirtless over the fence into their neighbors yard, but you never know.[/QUOTE]

Cop: Sir, you are under arrest, please come with me.

Cop: Sir, I will not ask you again - now get on the ground and stay silent!
Investment Banker: But this is a Hickey Freeman.. Deborah, get my attorney on the line!
Cop tases the s#!+ out of the guy

[quote name='UncleBob']Yes, I'm asking you... you said:



Are you not a member of society? Put a price tag on your life.[/QUOTE]

Different people/groups of people price things differently. That is one of the ways in which capitalism works. I price things differently then the rest of society, what I find to be a deal may just be an OK price to mainstream society, likewise mainstream society puts a high price on some things that I think are close to worthless (such as tickets to the new Transformers 2 movie)

Therefore you must let me know who is doing the buying. Is it me, is it society, is it my employer? Once you do this I will give you the metric for determining the price.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']>"Risks are evaluated, exposed and discussed when selecting an investment."
Oddly enough, a gambler can do the exact same thing when setting at the blackjack table. Even the roulette wheel. Hell, I'd even argue that gambling is a safer bet in that you have a better chance of knowing the outcome. If you bet on 23-Red, you know there's a 37 in 38 chance you're going to lose it all with a 1 in 38 chance of winning. What are your risks and potential gains when buying a share of stock?[/QUOTE]

If your track record at the tables is better then your track record in the stock market, either you are Doyle F. Brunson or you're doing it wrong!
 
[quote name='camoor']Therefore you must let me know who is doing the buying. Is it me, is it society, is it my employer? Once you do this I will give you the metric for determining the price.[/QUOTE]

I'm buying you.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'm buying you.[/QUOTE]

LOL well played.

BTW are you a joke account now, you used to make serious posts but I noticed a 1700% upsurge in wisecrackery.
 
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