Best Buy Trade-in 5.0 - see FAQ in OP!

BudzMcGee

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Just seemed like a good time for a new thread. You can view the previous thread here!

THIS THREAD OP WILL NOT BE ACTIVELY UPDATED WITH NEW PROMOS - THIS IS PRIMARILY AN FAQ.

All Promotions are available in-store only, and they DO NOT stack!

Only the 10% Bonus from Gamers Club Unlocked will stack with these offers, and it definitely does stack despite what some employees will say.

Please read FAQ below before asking questions!


Flip discussion is allowed on CAG, but begging for list of games to flip is not only obnoxious but doesn't help the community in any way; don't be surprised if some users are only interested in trading information with other users who regularly contribute to the thread.

General video game promotions link: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcat17093&type=page (Promotions are listed at the bottom of the page)

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BEST BUY'S VIDEO GAMES TRADE-IN PAGE & VALUE ESTIMATOR

Check which BB stores do trade-ins here.
In-store trades may be done in the Gaming Dept or at customer service depending on the store.

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F.A.Q. Best Buy has a short FAQ here.

How does the **% bonus TIV work?
The percentage is based on the final total of your entire trade in, so if the trade in is $100 and there is a 50% bonus your final gift card value will be $150.

How does the 10% Gamers Club Unlocked bonus work?
The 10% bonus for Gamers Club Unlocked members is calculated from the base trade in value. So in the above example, a $100 trade would get an extra $10 with the GCU membership bonus. So if there was a 50% trade in bonus it would be $100 base, $10 Gamers Club Unlocked bonus and $50 TIV bonus for a grand total of $160. 

How do I become a Gamers Club Unlocked member and get the 10% bonus?
Any video game section employee should be able to set you up with the GCU membership (should being the key word). The program has undergone some serious changes in the last couple of months. The program now cost $120  for two years and comes with a subscription of @Gamer magazine until May 2014 (which typically has a couple of great coupons every month). It will also get you a 10% bonus on trade ins, 20% off new games and 10% off of used games (Make sure to point it out to the blue shirt doing your trade-in though as it is easy for them to skip, and they are still new to it). It can take 48 hours (or more) for GCU to show up on your My Best Buy membership. Current GCU members have been upgraded to the new program for no extra charge and should have received a coupon to extend their membership for an additional 2 years at a cost of $30 ($15 a year). Members who had their subscription run out within a couple months of November 2013 will also get this coupon. 

I can't find the pamphlet or barcode to sign up for GCU!

Employees by and large seem ignorant of the program and probably won't be much help so here is what you need to do. There may be pamphlets around various areas of the store and if you can not find that try the touch kiosk. 

I didn't get my 10% bonus or the employee said it doesn't stack, what gives?
As of September 2012 the trade in system at Best Buy was updated, and employees seem to be having a hard time making sure that they add the GCU bonus. It should be added immediately after they scan your games, and before they take your personal information. You also should always try to know your full trade in value with bonuses before going to the store so that if the price is different you can identify it immediately. The 10% bonus definitely does stack with any TIV promo (100%, 50%, it doesn't matter). All the Gamers Club Unlocked pamphlets say so, as does the website, and are a great place to point to if an employee or a manager tells you otherwise.

For a full break down of when and how to help make sure your 10% was applied look in the spoiler.

How to get your 10% bonus

For some reason this is incredibly difficult for employees to get right. Following this process should work, but there is no accounting for the occasional very-bad-at-their-job employee.  

The 10% requires that they add your member information at a very specific point. The best way to describe it is that it must be entered along with your games, as it is on the same page. So immediately after they enter your games, but before navigating to the next page on their computer, the Best Buy employee has to enter your information, typically using your phone number, to find your account. It is on the same page as all of the games and if they are asking for your ID it is too late!  The big problem is that the next page also looking up your member information, but in a brilliant move of programming on Best Buy's part, it will not apply the membership bonus at this stage. An easy way to see if the bonus has been applied is to ask for the trade in total at this point as well, as the 10% (and any other bonuses) would already be applied; so if the numbers are off you know they need to go back a page and enter the information. Otherwise, that being done, it should work just fine.

Things to know/help you make sure the bonus is applied:

  • Always know your trade total, including bonuses, before going in. This will help you catch issues.
  • Hold onto your ID until they ask for it, that way you know that they are on that page. Before handing them the ID is a great time to ask them what the total was if they haven't already told you because you can still catch the issue now. 
  • Be polite and helpful. Try to not get frustrated if they didn't enter the information at first, and politely mention that last time you had this issue the employee had to go back a page. In the event the issue isn't being resolved it never hurts to ask if maybe someone from gaming could help.  MOST employees will be friendly and work with you. 
  • Lastly, be persistent. Some employees will take it personally when you try to help, some will just be difficult because lets face it, retail jobs suck and you're probably the 900th person to ask them for something today. Giving up though not only makes you lose out on the 10% bonus, and the Reward Zone points (as well as credit towards your Elite Plus status), all it does is make sure the employee doesn't know what they are doing for the next customer either.  You paid for the bonus, make sure you get it. 

Do we get MyBestBuy (Reward Zone) points for trade-ins??
Yes. You get one point for every pre-bonus dollar traded in. So if your TIV was $100 before bonuses, you get 100 Reward Zone points. Gamers Club Unlocked members (and possibly standard Gamers Club members) get double points for everything gaming, including trade-ins. So in the same example you would wind up with 200 Reward Zone points. To get Reward Zone points you must have them include your Reward Zone membership information (easiest to look up by phone number) with your trade-in (this is required for the Gamers Club Unlocked bonus anyway).

Can I use my Best Buy gift card to purchase Amazon Kindle Gift Cards or Visa Gift Cards?
Yes, although some employees may not be aware of this and incorrectly refuse to do so. Visa Gift Cards have a $200 limit and a $6 activation fee. Amazon Gift Cards are available in $25, $50 and $100 depending on your store selection. Some states, or even localities (county, city, etc.) may not allow the sale of Amazon Gift Cards. Yes, Kindle Gift Cards are good for anything on Amazon.

The value on the site doesn't match the store, why?
Sometimes the page may not update immediately. This is fairly rare though. The store's trade-in values are definitive though, so what they say is what you get. 99.99% of the time they will match up.

The value on the iPhone/Android app is way off, why?
The app often sucks for updating values (and some games simply don't show up), don't rely on it if you don't have to.

The game I want to trade isn't on the site, what gives?
While rare, there have been some games recently not showing up in the online estimator. You can always check in-store to see if the price is in their system and simply not online, but that is unlikely to be the case (as in, it is possible that has never been the case). When Best Buy doesn't have a game on file they can offer $1 as a generic SKU, but that's it. New releases appear to be added on Tuesday evenings. Many new releases are taking upwards of a week or more to be added to the site.

How come the GOTY/complete version doesn't show up in the estimator?
Best Buy doesn't differentiate between the vanilla and GOTY/complete versions of a game 99% of the time. This is largely a cover-all policy due to the fact that many GOTY editions include the game's DLC and bonus content as one-time use codes; meaning that the game has no extra value on the 2nd hand market and honestly, Best Buy probably doesn't trust their employees to make sure all the extra content is included. So no extra TIV for your GOTY games. The plus side is that GOTY and vanilla versions sell at the same price, so if the DLC is located on disc and you find a GOTY version in-store it will be the same price as the vanilla one.

When do trade-in values update?
No one knows for sure, but updates can and do happen at any time. Sometimes an update will happen at an atypical time, such as when GameStop has an advertised sale for a game well below Best Buy's trade in price.

What will be the TIV of Game X tomorrow/next week / next month/ etc
Nobody knows.

If I locked in a trade online, and the value drops, will I still get the locked in value when I mail it in?
Yes. You will get the locked in TIV as long as the item is received within 14 days of you locking it in (and the item is in the condition you described it as). Again, the item MUST BE RECEIVED within 14 days. It is not enough to simply ship it within the 14 day time period (like Amazon). Be mindful of this if you are trying to trade in a game that you are waiting to ship/arrive from an online store. If you miss the receiving deadline and then complain about it in the thread you will probably be made fun of. You have been warned.

Can you lock in the price online then trade it in-store?
No. Online and in-store are completely separate in every way but their base trade in values.

Do I get the XX% bonus or my 10% GCU bonus when trading online?

No. All bonuses, including GCU member bonus only work in-store.  The value listed on the website is the value you will receive, nothing more.

How do I get my giftcard for online trades?

Online trades will receive a E-Giftcard.  E-Giftcards can be printed and used in store, you can also go in store and ask a cashier to "transfer" it to a real giftcard, i.e. buy a real giftcard with the E-Giftcard funds if you wish. Apparently the online system states they will mail a giftcard but this is not accurate. 

Is there a limit to how many games I can trade in?
Officially, Best Buy recently changed their policy on this then changed it back. You can trade up to 3 copies of a title per platform. The system will not automatically stop you from trading in more than 3 copies of a game, some have done so frequently without issue but many others have been banned for trading over the limit in the past so it is not recommended if you wish to keep Best Buy as a trade in option in the future. Obviously it is YMMV, but do so at your own risk. If you regularly re-buy games at lower prices and trade in a lot it may be wise to keep track of all that you trade in.


Can I trade game disc only, or do I need the case and manuals, too?
Best Buy accepts disc only games (for the same value as complete games). The trade in will take longer though as the employee will have to look up the games individually. Yes, this also applies to DS, 3DS, PSP, etc. If you have the manual and artwork you should trade it in though anyway to improve the quality of the selection for people who may want to buy the game in the future (you can't know if the game will be complete when you buy online for example).

Can I trade in games that say "Not for Resale" on the back?
Yes, since the only thing that matters is the disc. Some employees will fight this though, and in that case, just trade the game in as disc-only. Employees have gotten much better about knowing this policy though, and busier stores are more likely to have employees that have done more trade ins and know the rules.

Does Best Buy accept game hardware?
Currently Best Buy only accepts various versions of the Nintendo DS in store, but some stores apparently accept consoles as well. Call ahead before bringing it in. That said, the TIV for most hardware is lower than competitors.

Does the **% bonuses apply to game hardware?
No, games only.

When I do a in-store trade, I am asked: to be fingerprinted, to have my photo taken, how much I weigh, etc. What's the deal?
Pawn shop laws regulating trade-ins and resale of used goods varies from state to state or even city to city. It is not Best Buy's rule, and varies from store to store depending on where you live. At a minimum you'll need a government issued ID (passport, drivers license, military ID, etc.).

I went to a store to do a trade-in and they asked for a Best Buy receipt. WTF? 
Some stores are required to have receipts to accept trade-ins, again this is due to local Pawn shop laws and could vary from city to city. You can always check if the store(s) near you require a receipt on Best Buy's trade-in site.

Can I trade sealed games?
Yes. You must present your receipt for the sealed games you are trading in. It is ok if the purchase was made from another store. You do run the risk of drawing extra attention to yourself as trading in sealed products is often a sign of theft. Do not be surprised if this is questioned by an employee, or you are asked to leave, open the items and return. You might even be flat out denied by the employee or manager despite the official rule. It is their right to do so.

How does the get **% with pre-order bonus work?
After trading in your games, the employee SHOULD then sell you the pre-order for $5.

How much is a pre-order at Best Buy?
Pre-ordering at Best Buy cost $5, in fact, you aren't supposed to pay any more than that (and most employees won't let you if you ask). Yes, you can use the gift card you just received from your trade-in to purchase the pre-order.

Can I cancel a pre-order and keep the bonus?
Yes, the trade-in and the pre-order are completely separate transactions. Nothing will prevent you from returning to the Best Buy canceling the pre-order and receiving a refund. Some users have claimed that they were flagged for doing this multiple times though and were denied, so be aware of how many pre-orders you are cancelling. Also keep in mind the obvious facts that this is not how the program is intended to work and over abuse will negatively affect the program long-term. Lastly, returns are tracked on a personal level by a third party. (Read: try not to cancel a bunch of pre-orders)

Do I have to cancel the pre-order at the same store where it was made?
No, this can be handled by any BBY. Don't be surprised if you get a customer service employee who says otherwise though.

Can I pre-order once and get the pre-order bonus on my next trade-in as well?
YMMV. Officially, the answer is no, but there is nothing that actually requires the employee to sell the pre-order in order to apply the bonus so if your blue shirt is in a friendly mood they may be willing. Doesn't hurt to get to know the employees at your store. That said, expect that you will have to pre-order another game and be surprised if you don't.

Can I combine a 3 games for **% and a pre-order for **% bonus?
No. Bonuses do not stack, and you must pick one or the other. The only bonus that stacks with other promotions is the 10% you receive if you are a Gamers Club Unlocked member.

Remember, all trades are technically at the discretion of Best Buy and they can refuse to accept a game for whatever reason they want (outside of you being black, woman, Jewish, etc.).

 
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No go for me this afternoon. Spent 45 minutes watching the customer service guy sit on hold with the help desk. I tried to trade Halo 4 and a DS game, so who knows what triggered the failure. I have a couple back-up $5 games. I'll have to try again tomorrow. Really wish I had thought about adding one of the back-up games while I was standing at the counter. Now to see if TIVs hold til tomorrow.... Gots to get my Pokem-ON.

 
Apparently at my store they said the DS and 3DS games do not apply for this Trade in Promo... Anyone here have success trading in DS/3DS games and getting the promo?
Hold on--you might be on to something here, since it says "Not all gaming platforms are eligible for trade-in." in the rules for the promo.

To everyone who wasn't able to get the extra $25, did you trade in a :ds: or :3ds: game? To those who were successful, I'll ask the opposite: Did you not trade in a :ds: or :3ds: game?

 
Hold on--you might be on to something here, since it says "Not all gaming platforms are eligible for trade-in." in the rules for the promo.

To everyone who wasn't able to get the extra $25, did you trade in a :ds: or :3ds: game? To those who were successful, I'll ask the opposite: Did you not trade in a :ds: or :3ds: game?
I was just about to post this. Was looking over the terms and saw "Not all gaming platforms are eligible for trade-in."

Going by the last couple success posts, Vita,Wii, 360, PS3 games should be eligible. Haven't seen any 3DS/DS reports yet

 
Wish they would have laid this out in the terms online... My nearest BB doesn't accept trade-ins (some bs city ordinance... although the Gamestop across the parking lot seems to have no problem), so I had to drive ~15 minutes to another store.

 
Apparently at my store they said the DS and 3DS games do not apply for this Trade in Promo... Anyone here have success trading in DS/3DS games and getting the promo?
I traded in Paper Mario Sticker Star 3DS for $10 along with a few 360 games and one PS3. It worked fine for me. Got the GCU 10% and the 5/$25 bonus.

However, they did say they were having issues with their system today. I had placed an order to pick up Remember Me PS3 and it was about 2 hours before I got the email from bestbuy. I was in store and he couldn't even pull up the screen to check. Could just be my store though. I will just pick it up later.

 
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The staff at my store also said they were having system issues, though both my trade ins went as smoothly as they normally do.

But my online pick up orders were completely down, so they had to fill out a form for each of the 2 games I was picking up.

 
Traded in the following today (all PS3): 

Gran Turismo 5 (regular edition) - $5 

MX vs. ATV Alive - $5

NCAA 14 - $27

Test Drive Unlimited 2 - $5

UFC Personal Trainer - $10

Promotional Gift Card - $25

Total - $77 

Pretty good considering I paid a total of $85 for these games...

 
I traded in Paper Mario Sticker Star 3DS for $10 along with a few 360 games and one PS3. It worked fine for me. Got the GCU 10% and the 5/$25 bonus.

However, they did say they were having issues with their system today. I had placed an order to pick up Remember Me PS3 and it was about 2 hours before I got the email from bestbuy. I was in store and he couldn't even pull up the screen to check. Could just be my store though. I will just pick it up later.
Did you have exactly 5 games though, or did you do 6? That's the real question.

Also, I did have a copy of Halo 4 in my set, so that doesn't completely rule it out either.

 
Fun Fact: I was just looking at my Best Buy Reward Zone points, they actually gave me points for stuff I purchased with a gift card. Maybe this is a mistake? Maybe it's part of the new system? Either way no complaints here.

 
Did you have exactly 5 games though, or did you do 6? That's the real question.

Also, I did have a copy of Halo 4 in my set, so that doesn't completely rule it out either.
Yes, Paper Mario 3DS, Halo Reach, Saints Row Double pack, GTA 4 on Xbox 360 and 007 Legends on PS3.

 
buy 5 halos three for xbox 2 for ps3

trade them in

profit

buy a car

buy a house
Please leave...you are not adding anything to the site.

So out of the 84 games I have physical copies, only 14 are $5 or more TIV. And of those 14 only 2 are above $10. The well is pretty dry for me.

 
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Fun Fact: I was just looking at my Best Buy Reward Zone points, they actually gave me points for stuff I purchased with a gift card. Maybe this is a mistake? Maybe it's part of the new system? Either way no complaints here.
I've noticed weird stuff like this from time to time also recently. Mainly it showing part of purchases as eligible for points, even though the entire purchase was paid with a GC.

 
This would be great if true since i'm paying off both my next-gen pre-orders with gift card.

Fun Fact: I was just looking at my Best Buy Reward Zone points, they actually gave me points for stuff I purchased with a gift card. Maybe this is a mistake? Maybe it's part of the new system? Either way no complaints here.
 
Fun Fact: I was just looking at my Best Buy Reward Zone points, they actually gave me points for stuff I purchased with a gift card. Maybe this is a mistake? Maybe it's part of the new system? Either way no complaints here.
Funner fact, the other week I wanted to combine 10 gift cards to one new one bc my stack was getting high.... $750 worth of gift cards used to buy a new one... and i got points. $15 dollars of reward points added to my bank

 
I don't know if i should go attempt a trade-in since people seem to be having a problem with Halo 4 and that was 1 of the 5 I'm planning to trade in. Has anyone been successful trading with Halo 4 as 1 of their games?
 
I would imagine the Halo 4 issue might have to deal with the wording "Not valid with any other offers" but that doesn't explain why I was able to trade in Remember Me...

 
Funner fact, the other week I wanted to combine 10 gift cards to one new one bc my stack was getting high.... $750 worth of gift cards used to buy a new one... and i got points. $15 dollars of reward points added to my bank
So now we flip gift cards for more gift cards. I wonder if this works for the e-Cards as well. lol

I just had a bunch of rewards applied to my account for all the trading, it's like another free game. Love BB.

 
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Funner fact, the other week I wanted to combine 10 gift cards to one new one bc my stack was getting high.... $750 worth of gift cards used to buy a new one... and i got points. $15 dollars of reward points added to my bank
Darnit! I never give them my rewards/phone # when consolidating gc's because you're not supposed to get pts. I wonder if I would've gotten pts if I had been giving them my #...

 
Not sure if DS games or Halo 4 are the culprit, but my trade finally triggered the promo when I added a backup 360 game. My guess is DS doesn't count. Also traded a Wii game, but I doubt that's it.

 
About to go in and do my trades. Will update if it prompt the $25 bonus.

It took me awhile to find 5 games that has value of at least $5 out of the 50 plus games I have.

Edit: bonus prompt for me. Traded all PS3 games and had no problem getting my GCU bonus as well.
 
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Fun Fact: I was just looking at my Best Buy Reward Zone points, they actually gave me points for stuff I purchased with a gift card. Maybe this is a mistake? Maybe it's part of the new system? Either way no complaints here.
I think it's a glitch in the system. I only had it happen on one transaction (last month) which was paid in full by GC.

 
Not sure if DS games or Halo 4 are the culprit, but my trade finally triggered the promo when I added a backup 360 game. My guess is DS doesn't count. Also traded a Wii game, but I doubt that's it.
Just to be clear, you added a 6th game to the trade in correct? If so, it didn't do anything crazy like add 5 bucks to all 6 games did it?

 
thanks for the gcu info folks, the last remaining store I hadn't been to in my area knew the score and I had no problems renewing and then raining massive trade fodder on to their desk. all promos and gcu applied with no issues whatsoever (combination of vita and ps3 games).

@stoned99 (definitely not eldritchonrye) - make sure you bring a physical printout of the egift card and it should work. the system prevents them from keying in gift card numbers now and it likely won't scan on a phone (since it isn't a 2d/3d or whatever barcode). tried this myself and was summarily shut down due to lack of printout, but we tried to scan the phone for a while anyways.

 
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Did a trade-in and the employee called Corporate and "The Bridge" about the mixup with Halo 4. It looks like they have a "list of games" that will not automatically work with the promo. The store itself has no way of printing or acquiring said list. All games that qualify, auto-prompts, and will generate the $25 bonus.

So just bring an extra game or two if it's not working to get the bonus.
 
Did a trade-in and the employee called Corporate and "The Bridge" about the mixup with Halo 4. It looks like they have a "list of games" that will not automatically work with the promo. The store itself has no way of printing or acquiring said list. All games that qualify, auto-prompts, and will generate the $25 bonus.

So just bring an extra game or two if it's not working to get the bonus.
Is Remember Me one of those games?

 
I take it all of you trading games are using ones from your personal collections?  It seems as though Best Buy has finally figured out how to not get taken advantage of. I can't find anything to flip from gamestop.

 
thanks for the gcu info folks, the last remaining store I hadn't been to in my area knew the score and I had no problems renewing and then raining massive trade fodder on to their desk. all promos and gcu applied with no issues whatsoever (combination of vita and ps3 games).

@stoned99 (definitely not eldritchonrye) - make sure you bring a physical printout of the egift card and it should work. the system prevents them from keying in gift card numbers now and it likely won't scan on a phone (since it isn't a 2d/3d or whatever barcode). tried this myself and was summarily shut down due to lack of printout, but we tried to scan the phone for a while anyways.
Best thing to do is call corporate and tell them you "lost your gc." Tell them it's a real gift card (not an e gift card) whether it is or not. They'll zero out the balance on that gift card and then send you a new one with the original's balance. I did that when I had trouble with a gift card that someone PM'd me.

Is Remember Me one of those games?
As of yesterday, I can 100% confirm that Remember Me triggers the promo.

 
So if Halo 4 is not working and there are no Gamestop to Best Buy flips...it looks like I'll be sitting this one out.  All the games in my collection that I would be willing to trade in are not worth the $5 minimum.

 
So an update on the whole DS/3DS controversy. SHOCK THEY WERE NOT THE ISSUE. HALO 4 WAS THE ISSUE...

Went to a different Best Buy today. Brought the Halo 4, Assassins' Creed 3, Black Ops 2, Pokemon Conquest, and the Adventure Time 3DS that were rejected yesterday... BUT I added a copy of Pandora's Tower in the mix. Lo and behold, the stupid 5 + $25 promo magically appears!

So in other words I was lied to and the Halo 4 was actually the culprit. Part of  me wanted to go to the other Best Buy and rub it in their faces, but I didn't want to waste the time.

EDIT: I should probably mention, it looks like Halo 4's trade in price DROPPED sometime today. I checked this morning and it was $6, but now it is down to $4...

 
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@stoned99 (definitely not eldritchonrye) - make sure you bring a physical printout of the egift card and it should work. the system prevents them from keying in gift card numbers now and it likely won't scan on a phone (since it isn't a 2d/3d or whatever barcode). tried this myself and was summarily shut down due to lack of printout, but we tried to scan the phone for a while anyways.
I consolidated gift cards on 10/5 and the clerk scanned the e-gift card bar code off of my phone. I was shocked when she said it would scan. I handed her my phone and she double tapped the screen to adjust the resolution and it scanned. She had definitely done it before. Hope that helps.

 
So an update on the whole DS/3DS controversy. SHOCK THEY WERE NOT THE ISSUE. HALO 4 WAS THE ISSUE...

Went to a different Best Buy today. Brought the Halo 4, Assassins' Creed 3, Black Ops 2, Pokemon Conquest, and the Adventure Time 3DS that were rejected yesterday... BUT I added a copy of Pandora's Tower in the mix. Lo and behold, the stupid 5 + $25 promo magically appears!

So in other words I was lied to and the Halo 4 was actually the culprit. Part of me wanted to go to the other Best Buy and rub it in their faces, but I didn't want to waste the time.

EDIT: I should probably mention, it looks like Halo 4's trade in price DROPPED sometime today. I checked this morning and it was $6, but now it is down to $4...
Ride to Hell dropped as well :whistle2:(

 
I went to BB to trade Ride to Hell for PS3 and Xbox and they both dropped to $5.  They dropped the price in the middle of the day.  WTF!!  I was so mad that I decided to trade online since I locked in to the price already.  Also Remember Me dropped by a dollar to $20 instead of $21.  Wasted gas and time.  :booty: :twoguns:

 
Thanks for the heads up regarding Lumines for Vita having a TIV of $12.

Went to my local BB and traded the following:
:360:

Halo Reach - $5
Dead Island - $5

:pS3:

Littlebigplanet- $5
GTA4 - $5

Vita:
Lumines: Electric Symphony - $12

Walked out with a cool $57 gift card - much more than I value these games at
 
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