Bill Nye: Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children

[quote name='Clak']As far as evolution being a settled science, it's as settled as any science ever is.[/quote]

When I say "settled," I mean that there's room for refinement, growth, and improvement in our understanding of its dynamics and how it works. As for whether it is "settled" meaning "there are alternative, competing scientific explanations," that's not something I would call into question at all.

That's why I think religion is so sad, it doesn't breed curiosity. If you think god created everything, you stop looking for answers, or the answers you find are erroneously attributed back to that god. It's why I can't take any scientist seriously, doctor or not, if they're telling me creationism has equal footing to any science. Because if they truly believe that, they are a shame to their field and should be told so. it would be no different than a sociologist agreeing that poverty is caused not by any sort of in-bult discrimination or other societal factors, but because people are just lazy and need to get a job. It's lazy, and I expect better than that from experts in a field.
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winner winner chicken dinner. "god created it" is the height of incuriosity.

"fuckin' magnets; how do they work?" generates more curiosity than creationist proponents.
 
[quote name='camoor']Meh, I disagree with that too. In the western world, Christianity isn't really holding things back too much. Most Christians probably aren't in scientific fields any way, and the ones that are doing research probably have a more nuanced view. I doubt you'll find too many creationists or god warriors with a phd in nuclear physics.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I can't say I've met any super devout Christians at the research universities I've attended or worked at. A lot of Christians, and some Muslims and Jews etc. for sure. But not super devout people who are going to church all the time, much less any creationists. I'm sure there are a few out there I suppose.

It's just like oil and water. If you're so religious you believe creationism and accept "god made it" explanations you're probably not a very curious person who has an interest in using science and doing research to find answers to things.

The ones who are religious are mostly just people raised religious who still believe for whatever reason. Maybe wanting the comfort of the possibility of an afterlife or whatever. But it doesn't get in the way of their science.


[quote name='cancerman1120']The problem with this assumption is that it ignores all the potential scientists that are squashed because of Christianity. We have no idea what advances could be made if society emphasized science and math with the same vigor it does defending and studying religion. There are plenty of smart people who have been taught incorrectly. That is where religion hurts progress the most by suppressing knowledge to the masses, not those already in science.[/QUOTE]

For sure. People who are raised to just accept the "god made it" type of explanations are less likely to be drawn to science. So there's not doubt we waste a lot of talent from intelligent people who are diverted from science from growing up in fundamentalist families who are pushing creationism etc.

That is the one area I see religion holding society's progress back in the western world.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']The problem with this assumption is that it ignores all the potential scientists that are squashed because of Christianity. We have no idea what advances could be made if society emphasized science and math with the same vigor it does defending and studying religion. There are plenty of smart people who have been taught incorrectly. That is where religion hurts progress the most by suppressing knowledge to the masses, not those already in science.[/QUOTE]

That's an optimistic view of society. I don't think people care about philosophical or moral motivations - it's all about "show me the money"

We are still wasting our top talent. However it's not in religion - the top of the class is going to go where the money is and that's typically in doing things that don't benefit society at large whether it be a partial waste like a glut of plastic surgeons doing vanity work or a complete waste like useless and overly complex Wall Street financial instruments.
 
[quote name='camoor']Meh, I disagree with that too. In the western world, Christianity isn't really holding things back too much. Most Christians probably aren't in scientific fields any way, and the ones that are doing research probably have a more nuanced view. I doubt you'll find too many creationists or god warriors with a phd in nuclear physics.[/QUOTE]
That isn't what I said, I said that people who bleieve this shit are the ones often deciding on what we can research. Remember stem cell research? Remember the shit storm from that?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']When I say "settled," I mean that there's room for refinement, growth, and improvement in our understanding of its dynamics and how it works. As for whether it is "settled" meaning "there are alternative, competing scientific explanations," that's not something I would call into question at all.



winner winner chicken dinner. "god created it" is the height of incuriosity.

"fuckin' magnets; how do they work?" generates more curiosity than creationist proponents.[/QUOTE]
And I was once told that science took any beauty out of the world, which is equally ridiculous. Once you understand the natural processes that govern the world, that's beauty. When you understand how unlikely it is that we as a species should exist, and yet do exist, that's fucking incredible.
 
[quote name='Clak']That isn't what I said, I said that people who bleieve this shit are the ones often deciding on what we can research. Remember stem cell research? Remember the shit storm from that?[/QUOTE]

Conservative Christians are definitely speedbumps on the road to progress, but they aren't very effective at grinding things to a halt.

If stem cells were more promising then Christians wouldn't have a chance in hell. If there's money to be made then Christian concerns will get shoved out of the way.
 
Not when you've got politicians using it as a wedge issue, then it gets shoved out front and center. Without doing early research it's hard to tell if there will be money to be made from something.
 
[quote name='Clak']And I was once told that science took any beauty out of the world, which is equally ridiculous. Once you understand the natural processes that govern the world, that's beauty. When you understand how unlikely it is that we as a species should exist, and yet do exist, that's fucking incredible.[/QUOTE]

It's not really art though, is it.

Whoever said that was clumsy in their wording but I get their meaning. If you can't take in the beauty of the world without thinking about molecular physics or biological processes then I feel sorry for you.

Don't think, feel!
It is like a finger pointing away to the moon.
Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.
- Bruce Lee
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You've never heard a mathematician speak of the beauty in a formula, have you? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say.
 
[quote name='Clak']Not when you've got politicians using it as a wedge issue, then it gets shoved out front and center. Without doing early research it's hard to tell if there will be money to be made from something.[/QUOTE]

True. I did say they were speedbumps. However stem cell research is still continuing, contraception is easy to come by, and if a woman is determined to get an abortion she will be able to find a place to do it. Over time Christian conservatives will lose each and every policy debate to progressives. The only thing Christian conservatives ever decisively won was the war on Xmas and that was a made-up war. That and you can't say a bad cuss on network tv.

As a whole it seems that Christian conservatives are just really ineffective at what they do.
 
If left alone I agree, but you never know what can happen to suddenly make people start feeling more conservative again. I'd say 9/11 did that to an extent.
 
[quote name='camoor']
We are still wasting our top talent. However it's not in religion - the top of the class is going to go where the money is and that's typically in doing things that don't benefit society at large whether it be a partial waste like a glut of plastic surgeons doing vanity work or a complete waste like useless and overly complex Wall Street financial instruments.[/QUOTE]

Very true as well. Add in the obsession with sports and celebrity as well.

With the anti-intellectual movement in the US, it just isn't as cool or admirable to be a scientist or engineer or whatever like it is in countries like India or China.

People want the big money wall street or law firm jobs, or neglect their education to chase athletic dreams etc.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Very true as well. Add in the obsession with sports and celebrity as well.

With the anti-intellectual movement in the US, it just isn't as cool or admirable to be a scientist or engineer or whatever like it is in countries like India or China.

People want the big money wall street or law firm jobs, or neglect their education to chase athletic dreams etc.[/QUOTE]

Ditto. I am one of those individuals who has a science degree (I even worked for big pharma for 2 years) and went to law school instead of getting a PhD. I loved doing research but I quickly found out that if you intend to move up the corporate ladder you have to move away from the lab and manage people. This appealed little to me at the time. A PhD sounds awesome but it's a ton of hard work with metely a stipeb to live on. Plus, the reality is that very few people actually make it in academia. The rest have to work in the private sector. At which point you might as well maximize your earning potential. That's why science is losing the battle on keeping the best talent.
 
Yep. Many are just focused on money. I'm in the social sciences and personally have no gripes about my salary as I was never that focused on money and think I'm well paid anyway. I make $67K for my 9-month salary currently, and can make more in the summer months from pay from research grants (could teach summer courses too--but don't like teaching enough to do so). Can also do up to a day a week worth of outside consulting.

Can't complain at all as I'm not wanting for money, love the flexibility in schedule and researching what I want etc. And not bad for only being in my 4th year out of grad school (started at $55k for 9-month salary).

But many others just want the biggest six figure or up job they can get, so getting a Ph D and doing research--be it academia, private research firm, or government research office--just doesn't appeal to a lot of people.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Very true as well. Add in the obsession with sports and celebrity as well.

With the anti-intellectual movement in the US, it just isn't as cool or admirable to be a scientist or engineer or whatever like it is in countries like India or China.

People want the big money wall street or law firm jobs, or neglect their education to chase athletic dreams etc.[/QUOTE]

Good point, the anti-intellectual movement isn't helping. The opportunities to do pure research are astonishingly small, and folks need to be able to earn a living.
 
[quote name='eLefAdEr']Another response video courtesy of Ken Ham. I did a lot of brow-furrowing as I watched it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JxX11c1cSWU

Apologies for the external link, I don't know why it isn't embedding.[/QUOTE]

I really never knew how much these people push this distinction of observational vs historical science and the way they twist it to mean since you could not be there there is no way you can be certain. The scientific process is still being used when looking at geology, astronomy, cosmology, etc.. He is also mixing life science with social science when he brings up things like marriage and self-esteem. They are not in the same boat. I watch like 30 seconds and have to stop and then start watching again because when he says Bill Nye does not teach critical thinking I want to punch my monitor.
 
[quote name='kill3r7']Ditto. I am one of those individuals who has a science degree (I even worked for big pharma for 2 years) and went to law school instead of getting a PhD. I loved doing research but I quickly found out that if you intend to move up the corporate ladder you have to move away from the lab and manage people. This appealed little to me at the time. A PhD sounds awesome but it's a ton of hard work with metely a stipeb to live on. Plus, the reality is that very few people actually make it in academia. The rest have to work in the private sector. At which point you might as well maximize your earning potential. That's why science is losing the battle on keeping the best talent.[/QUOTE]

This. When it came time for me to decide between job security in the private sector as a physician or physical therapist or chance it on a PHD or research degree, ultimately I took the job security. Maybe a little later in life, but atleast not for now in this economy.
 
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